Laila Lightness.8742 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > > > > @"ATMAvatar.5749" said: > > > > > > DPS meters make me a little sad, in that it inevitably results in skewed balance between classes to pacify the community. In the MMO's I've played that had DPS meters, PvE balance always resulted in equalizing class DPS across the board without regard for other factors like survivability and utility, and GW2 has been no exception to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, DPS meters are a reality that isn't going away, so if we're going to have to live with them, I would at least want them to be as accurate and versatile as possible. ArcDPS is a valiant effort, but it definitely has some warts. > > > > > > > > > > With dps meters i can bring my necro to fractals and no one will say i do low damage just by seeing my profession. > > > > > > > > Same with ranger > > > > > > This is probably the second biggest myth. I still see players get chastised for bringing certain classes into fractals and raids. There's probably still LFGs that only want deadeyes and weavers. DPS meters didn't give permission for low performing classes to get into groups, they just give discriminatory players all the justification they need to kick first and ask questions never. > > > > At least now they kick based on damage. Before tdps meters, they kicked based on what they thought damage would be, based on some theoretical number that in a real fight was hardly achievable. > > And the whole reason that was even an issue is because what again? Oh right. The devs put misleading pop in's in the game which didn't show you actual DPS but total damage, so people had to use the pen and paper method, and that was the result. > > Congratz, you just debunked your own argument. Thank you for perfectly displaying why we needed dps meters. > > At least now, you can't say the kicks are never logically justfied :3. > > Progress. We dont need meter its just a tool. you can use combat log and some math and get same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrostDraco.8306 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > > > > > @"ATMAvatar.5749" said: > > > > > > > DPS meters make me a little sad, in that it inevitably results in skewed balance between classes to pacify the community. In the MMO's I've played that had DPS meters, PvE balance always resulted in equalizing class DPS across the board without regard for other factors like survivability and utility, and GW2 has been no exception to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, DPS meters are a reality that isn't going away, so if we're going to have to live with them, I would at least want them to be as accurate and versatile as possible. ArcDPS is a valiant effort, but it definitely has some warts. > > > > > > > > > > > > With dps meters i can bring my necro to fractals and no one will say i do low damage just by seeing my profession. > > > > > > > > > > Same with ranger > > > > > > > > This is probably the second biggest myth. I still see players get chastised for bringing certain classes into fractals and raids. There's probably still LFGs that only want deadeyes and weavers. DPS meters didn't give permission for low performing classes to get into groups, they just give discriminatory players all the justification they need to kick first and ask questions never. > > > > > > At least now they kick based on damage. Before tdps meters, they kicked based on what they thought damage would be, based on some theoretical number that in a real fight was hardly achievable. > > > > And the whole reason that was even an issue is because what again? Oh right. The devs put misleading pop in's in the game which didn't show you actual DPS but total damage, so people had to use the pen and paper method, and that was the result. > > > > Congratz, you just debunked your own argument. Thank you for perfectly displaying why we needed dps meters. > > > > At least now, you can't say the kicks are never logically justfied :3. > > > > Progress. > > We dont need meter its just a tool. you can use combat log and some math and get same results. It's been proven that you don't. What you get is theoretical dps, not actual dps. And the calculations are even worse for condition damage. Even time stamps are not 100% accurate. The point of the dps meter is to make in the moment calculations which reduces errors. And even then its not perfect. ArcDPS has issues, which you can read about on delta's site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > > > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > > > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > > > > > > @"ATMAvatar.5749" said: > > > > > > > > DPS meters make me a little sad, in that it inevitably results in skewed balance between classes to pacify the community. In the MMO's I've played that had DPS meters, PvE balance always resulted in equalizing class DPS across the board without regard for other factors like survivability and utility, and GW2 has been no exception to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, DPS meters are a reality that isn't going away, so if we're going to have to live with them, I would at least want them to be as accurate and versatile as possible. ArcDPS is a valiant effort, but it definitely has some warts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With dps meters i can bring my necro to fractals and no one will say i do low damage just by seeing my profession. > > > > > > > > > > > > Same with ranger > > > > > > > > > > This is probably the second biggest myth. I still see players get chastised for bringing certain classes into fractals and raids. There's probably still LFGs that only want deadeyes and weavers. DPS meters didn't give permission for low performing classes to get into groups, they just give discriminatory players all the justification they need to kick first and ask questions never. > > > > > > > > At least now they kick based on damage. Before tdps meters, they kicked based on what they thought damage would be, based on some theoretical number that in a real fight was hardly achievable. > > > > > > And the whole reason that was even an issue is because what again? Oh right. The devs put misleading pop in's in the game which didn't show you actual DPS but total damage, so people had to use the pen and paper method, and that was the result. > > > > > > Congratz, you just debunked your own argument. Thank you for perfectly displaying why we needed dps meters. > > > > > > At least now, you can't say the kicks are never logically justfied :3. > > > > > > Progress. > > > > We dont need meter its just a tool. you can use combat log and some math and get same results. > > It's been proven that you don't. What you get is theoretical dps, not actual dps. And the calculations are even worse for condition damage. > > Even time stamps are not 100% accurate. The point of the dps meter is to make in the moment calculations which reduces errors. And even then its not perfect. ArcDPS has issues, which you can read about on delta's site. It shouldnt been allowed in first place like all other add ons its not official dosent matter if anet dev says its ok for its still not official add on. If anet didnt add a dps meter it was probly for a reason thats the logic. But on user side it gives you information how well your rotation does in combat and there is ppl who just use auto attack but thats not enough for kick they do help in the way they want to or is able too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them). > > > > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is. > > > > > > This here is probably one of the biggest myths with DPS meters. They don't tell you how to improve. At all. They don't tell you where the problem is. They just give you a measure of your current standing. Saying a DPS meter improves your DPS is like saying a yardstick makes you taller. The only way a DPS meter "solves" the problem is if you kick players with lower DPS and invite in somebody better. > > > > No. The first step to self improvement is knowing where you are. That's why you see all those fitness obsessed guys with teir wearables. If you cannot messure your performance, how do you know you are improving? How do you know you are not going in the wrong direction? > > > > omly people that are perfect (cannot improve) or mediocre (don't want to improve) don't need to know how they are doing. > > > > No. The first step to self improvement is to seek out how to self improve. The only way people actually improve their DPS is by looking up how to do good DPS from somebody else who's already figured it out. This is because that whole mythical journey of self-discovery requires turning the game into a second job, wherein you do a lot of math and test out countless iterations for countless hours to find the best one. Even then, you might just be at a local maximum, because you lack the innovation and creativity to try a completely separate approach. > > Players were figuring out DPS rotations for years before meters were introduced into the game. It's a lot of math but it is simple math. If you did meaningfully better, you could generally see the results. The problem is that this doesn't reflect what causes DPS and what might inihibit it. You can have a great rotation, by the books, but uptime is terrible, someone's still clicking buttons, someone's clicking target instead of tab-targeting, etc... It's more than just what buttons get pressed when. And all of these combined separate people whose DPS is mediocre and people who push out relentless damage. So yes, a DPS meter helps with improvement as watching yourself in real-time is far different than doing math at the end of an encounter. If anything, you're saying don't use a calculator.... So what's the difference? I don't even expected to see Anet respond to this. But this feedback is vital if we want to see real support for add-ons in general (which Anet can control what add-ons have access to, rather than people downloading a network traffic sniffer that can just decipher anything*) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > This here is probably one of the biggest myths with DPS meters. They don't tell you how to improve. At all. They don't tell you where the problem is. They just give you a >measure of your current standing. Saying a DPS meter improves your DPS is like saying a yardstick makes you taller. The only way a DPS meter "solves" the problem is if >you kick players with lower DPS and invite in somebody better. > > > > The DPS Meter lets you measure how much you have improved. You get better by actually looking at the logs created by the DPS Meter and comparing them with other people. > > > > > > They're still not telling you how to improve. To see how far you've come, you need to have already improved in the first place, which would require means outside of the DPS meter. Ok.... So you improved first. But by how much? Introducing... The DPS meter, a calculator that replaces long form math. I record myself playing, go back and watch what I did. Yeah, a DPS meter doesn't fix my gameplay. It measure whether or not my mistake fixing was worth it, or if I should try something entirely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenesthesia.1697 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"FrostDraco.8306" said: > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > > > > @"ATMAvatar.5749" said: > > > > > > DPS meters make me a little sad, in that it inevitably results in skewed balance between classes to pacify the community. In the MMO's I've played that had DPS meters, PvE balance always resulted in equalizing class DPS across the board without regard for other factors like survivability and utility, and GW2 has been no exception to this. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, DPS meters are a reality that isn't going away, so if we're going to have to live with them, I would at least want them to be as accurate and versatile as possible. ArcDPS is a valiant effort, but it definitely has some warts. > > > > > > > > > > With dps meters i can bring my necro to fractals and no one will say i do low damage just by seeing my profession. > > > > > > > > Same with ranger > > > > > > This is probably the second biggest myth. I still see players get chastised for bringing certain classes into fractals and raids. There's probably still LFGs that only want deadeyes and weavers. DPS meters didn't give permission for low performing classes to get into groups, they just give discriminatory players all the justification they need to kick first and ask questions never. > > > > At least now they kick based on damage. Before tdps meters, they kicked based on what they thought damage would be, based on some theoretical number that in a real fight was hardly achievable. > > And the whole reason that was even an issue is because what again? Oh right. The devs put misleading pop in's in the game which didn't show you actual DPS but total damage, so people had to use the pen and paper method, and that was the result. > > Congratz, you just debunked your own argument. Thank you for perfectly displaying why we needed dps meters. > > At least now, you can't say the kicks are never logically justfied :3. > > Progress. I think you got confused, in all my posts i am saying that dps meters are good, so of course in this post i am still giving reasons why I think they are good, I am not debunking anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said: > My biggest problem with the DPS meter comes from the assumption written in the thread-title: > > **Personal DPS and other self-tracking** > > Current example: Lab farm Guide/Build/Rotation for 850+ Trick or Treat bags per hour! Enjoy! > > The topic starter was kind enough to link a video. About 1/8 of the screen, top-right, is filled with a nice table. I do not use any dps meter, so I honestly asked him if it was one. It was the case. Normally I would let it rest there, but he was quite eager to inform us how his genius method works and what rules & guidelines apply to his squad. He simply wants everyone to do as less damage as possible, even disarm the ascended trinkets. People are also not allowed to use mount-engages, in order to do not so much damage. Normal stuff if you say so. > > Now the interesting part came when he talked about how restrictive he acts with violations of his guidelines. He locks the squad so looting outside of it is very difficult and people violating his guidelines are kicked out of the squad. It is a free world, you can do whatever you want with your squad. > > On the one hand we have quite restrictive behavior towards too high damage output, on the other hand we have a squad-leader with an active dps-meter. A dps-meter that tracks the damage of all players in his squad. I know what is coming now, I asked him why the dps meter was runing and he told me > > "Dps meter is up because if I close it I'll have to reconfigure, and that's effort I don't need to expend." > > I do not buy it, sorry. Neither am I willing to believe that he is never going to look on the left part of the table. If you have an advantage, you use it. > > You guys know that the self-tracking is one of the few excuses for using the dps-meters. And in such an obvious case I should believe it is active because of laziness? I do not think this will have an aftermath, ANet is a lot more relaxed about that topic than I am. But for the future, tell your friends to shut down the dps-meters for stuff like that. Or at least edit it out before you upload the video. If you want to fool us, put some effort into it. > > - > Why does the dps-meter have a group-tracking-function in the first place? Let's say a group wants to see its progress in a raid, everyone runs an own dps-meter with only self-tracking-function. After the run, they upload their reports. Let there be a tool inside the meter to import reports with a comparison feature. Move the comparison part where it belongs, out of the game. One of the few excuses? Why use anecdotal evidence then? You pointed at one guy to say millions are doing this one negative thing. (I'm still not understanding what was happening here) Something about the game deserves to be outside the game? I mean first off, the add one that exists are technically outside. They are not integrated, it's an overlay, something above and ontop of the game, not IN the game. It's reading network traffic, this occurs outside the game. Its hooking into memory without direct, official access. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > They're still not telling you how to improve. To see how far you've come, you need to have already improved in the first place, which would require means outside of the DPS meter. Except they kinda do? They tell you how much of the fight you have been flanking the enemy. Thats important for thief and Condi Slb. You can ompare your rotation with someone else. They tell you how much time you wasted on skill canceling. They also tell the Squad about the scholar uptime, failed mechanics, average boons on you, average condition on the enemy. You can sort by split phase and see where you´ve been good and where not. The Logs from DPS meters tell you a lot. One parser even has a combat replay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > It shouldnt been allowed in first place like all other add ons its not official dosent matter if anet dev says its ok for its still not official add on. If anet didnt add a dps meter it was probly for a reason thats the logic. But on user side it gives you information how well your rotation does in combat and there is ppl who just use auto attack but thats not enough for kick they do help in the way they want to or is able too And if that reason was something like "Man, going back now to do this would be a lot of work for little to no pay off".... Would that change your opinion? If Anet WANTED to answer the community but knows (just like some of us know) that it's not a great use of resources right now? It'd be very difficult for Anet to detect and ban for such a thing. So official or not, they can't do much about the current state. Maybe some, but not a complete blocking of the program running it. Also, is the combat log time-stamped? What happened and when? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"deadpool.7036" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"Aenesthesia.1697" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them). > > > > > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is. > > > > > > > > This here is probably one of the biggest myths with DPS meters. They don't tell you how to improve. At all. They don't tell you where the problem is. They just give you a measure of your current standing. Saying a DPS meter improves your DPS is like saying a yardstick makes you taller. The only way a DPS meter "solves" the problem is if you kick players with lower DPS and invite in somebody better. > > > > > > No. The first step to self improvement is knowing where you are. That's why you see all those fitness obsessed guys with teir wearables. If you cannot messure your performance, how do you know you are improving? How do you know you are not going in the wrong direction? > > > > > > omly people that are perfect (cannot improve) or mediocre (don't want to improve) don't need to know how they are doing. > > > > > > > No. The first step to self improvement is to seek out how to self improve. The only way people actually improve their DPS is by looking up how to do good DPS from somebody else who's already figured it out. This is because that whole mythical journey of self-discovery requires turning the game into a second job, wherein you do a lot of math and test out countless iterations for countless hours to find the best one. Even then, you might just be at a local maximum, because you lack the innovation and creativity to try a completely separate approach. > > > > Players were figuring out DPS rotations for years before meters were introduced into the game. It's a lot of math but it is simple math. If you did meaningfully better, you could generally see the results. > > The problem is that this doesn't reflect what causes DPS and what might inihibit it. You can have a great rotation, by the books, but uptime is terrible, someone's still clicking buttons, someone's clicking target instead of tab-targeting, etc... It's more than just what buttons get pressed when. And all of these combined separate people whose DPS is mediocre and people who push out relentless damage. > > So yes, a DPS meter helps with improvement as watching yourself in real-time is far different than doing math at the end of an encounter. > > If anything, you're saying don't use a calculator.... So what's the difference? I don't even expected to see Anet respond to this. But this feedback is vital if we want to see real support for add-ons in general (which Anet can control what add-ons have access to, rather than people downloading a network traffic sniffer that can just decipher anything*) The meter doesn't reflect what causes (good) DPS either. It just give you the measure. You can delve into the minutia of gameplay all you want, but at the end of the day a yardstick doesn't make you taller. I get the feeling you have no idea how we figured out how to do good DPS in the past. We didn't do math at the end of the encounter. > @"deadpool.7036" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > This here is probably one of the biggest myths with DPS meters. They don't tell you how to improve. At all. They don't tell you where the problem is. They just give you a >measure of your current standing. Saying a DPS meter improves your DPS is like saying a yardstick makes you taller. The only way a DPS meter "solves" the problem is if >you kick players with lower DPS and invite in somebody better. > > > > > > The DPS Meter lets you measure how much you have improved. You get better by actually looking at the logs created by the DPS Meter and comparing them with other people. > > > > > > > > > > They're still not telling you how to improve. To see how far you've come, you need to have already improved in the first place, which would require means outside of the DPS meter. > > Ok.... So you improved first. But by how much? Introducing... The DPS meter, a calculator that replaces long form math. > > I record myself playing, go back and watch what I did. Yeah, a DPS meter doesn't fix my gameplay. It measure whether or not my mistake fixing was worth it, or if I should try something entirely different. I don't care. My point stands that a DPS meter doesn't actually improve you, and saying that it can help you measure improvement acquired outside of the meter does not change this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > They're still not telling you how to improve. To see how far you've come, you need to have already improved in the first place, which would require means outside of the DPS meter. > > Except they kinda do? > They tell you how much of the fight you have been flanking the enemy. Thats important for thief and Condi Slb. > You can ompare your rotation with someone else. > They tell you how much time you wasted on skill canceling. > They also tell the Squad about the scholar uptime, failed mechanics, average boons on you, average condition on the enemy. > You can sort by split phase and see where you´ve been good and where not. > The Logs from DPS meters tell you a lot. One parser even has a combat replay. > Because apparently a Thief or a Condi SB doesn't know to flank unless the meter tells them to. Meters don't help you compare rotations or produce a meaningful improvement from that comparison, nor provide insights into that comparison to explain why one is better than the other. Everyone who knows what DPS is knows to minimize skill canceling without needing a meter to tell them so. Measuring how much you fail doesn't stop failure at all. Everyone knows to keep maximum scholar uptime, to not fail mechanics, to maintain boons, and to maintain conditions without needing a meter to tell them so. Tracking failures in different splits means very little, other than circumstance. Really, unless you already know how to do good DPS, the meter's output might as well be magical. Improvement requires direction and untapped potential, neither of which a DPS meter gives. Everything you listed falls into the category of "I already know what I'm doing and the meter just tracks my failures." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 Blood, you're getting side tracked a bit. No one's saying that a DPS meter inherantly improves you... It's a measurement tool. Much like checking your pulse shows the payoff or working out. Or a Dyno test on an engine shows the increased perform ance of modifications to the engine. Other things have to be done to change what the meter shows... Because a meter just shows the result of what you did. So if you're against meters.... How do you propose I measure a small tweak in damage output? Or time a kill? If you're not against meters, I think we're getting a bit off-topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuffi.2430 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 I have no problem with personal DPS meters etc. Whatever your opinion about DPS meters, I think the problem arises if a DPS meter can monitor the DPS and personal build of another player - does this breach Data Protection regulations? It would depend on whether the law counts a player's DPS and build as personally identifiable information even though it is in game (my charcter name is unique, so this may be true). If it is considered personal data, then using information from a third party DPS meter to kick someone may be almost as much of a problem as ANET could face for allowing third party access to this information without obtaining consent. Of course, if ANET implement their own DPS meter then it would be an integral part of the game which we've agreed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Yuffi.2430" said: > Whatever your opinion about DPS meters, I think the problem arises if a DPS meter can monitor the DPS and personal build of another player - does this breach Data Protection regulations? It would depend on whether the law counts a player's DPS and build as personally identifiable information even though it is in game (my charcter name is unique, so this may be true). If it is considered personal data, then using information from a third party DPS meter to kick someone may be almost as much of a problem as ANET could face for allowing third party access to this information without obtaining consent. > Of course, if ANET implement their own DPS meter then it would be an integral part of the game which we've agreed to. DPS and all the information gathered by dps meters is not personal data, it has nothing to do with Data Protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > Because apparently a Thief or a Condi SB doesn't know to flank unless the meter tells them to. Maybe they do but don't actually do it in combat, you know when there are lots of other mechanics, paying attention to the rotation and so on. Knowing how much time you spent flanking is a good way of improving yourself. > Meters don't help you compare rotations or produce a meaningful improvement from that comparison, nor provide insights into that comparison to explain why one is better than the other. You can see the DPS of someone using the same build as you, if they did way more damage then you can check their rotation and compare with yours. The damage by type is great for this, for example if the other person is doing more than double bleeding damage than you, it means you need to prioritize your bleeding skills more. There is something in your rotation that you are doing wrong. > Everyone knows to keep maximum scholar uptime, to not fail mechanics, to maintain boons, and to maintain conditions without needing a meter to tell them so. If that was true then you wouldn't see players failing to keep scholar up-time, failing mechanics and failing to maintain boons and conditions, but they do. Sometimes you don't even notice that you did, a meter will tell you. > Improvement requires direction and untapped potential, neither of which a DPS meter gives. Comparing your dps with someone running the same build, checking their rotations, and then improving your own, is how a meter can direct you properly. Of course all of the above are mostly for static groups that analyze the logs so their players get better after each run. In pugs this is probably useless information anyway. Edit: and something I forgot, but it's important: a meter will tell you if your lack of dps was due to you missing the rotation, or your supports not providing enough support. Sometimes your dps might be lower than the other guy in the other sub-group, even though you do perfect rotations. This is hard to see in real time sometimes (unless you pay attention to boon up-time) but especially after a run you can check and see if the Might generation, or Alacrity or whatever wasn't good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"deadpool.7036" said: > One of the few excuses? Why use anecdotal evidence then? You pointed at one guy to say millions are doing this one negative thing. (I'm still not understanding what was happening here) > > Something about the game deserves to be outside the game? I mean first off, the add one that exists are technically outside. They are not integrated, it's an overlay, something above and ontop of the game, not IN the game. It's reading network traffic, this occurs outside the game. Its hooking into memory without direct, official access. I used the term **current example** to show the problem with an example. As it is explained in the How to Give Good Feedback, I should not only use personal assumptions but also mention an example, what I did. It is a good example for that case, as it shows easily where the risks are. In addition I gave a little hint, how to avoid such situations in a direct tone. I did not say millions are doing the same. I just pointed out it is hard to believe, especially in that case, that a few hundred people (you are not that many) are looking away and ignore their data on purpose. Especially when the data is right in front of their eyes. You have the data of other peoples' performance in real-time. If that meter would only create a report-file, which can be opened separately, all fine by me. Even if you insist on real-time data for whatever reason, why not only personal data? Why does this tool show other peoples' performance, if it is only used for personal-tacking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said: > You have the data of other peoples' performance in real-time. If that meter would only create a report-file, which can be opened separately, all fine by me. Even if you insist on real-time data for whatever reason, why not only personal data? Why does this tool show other peoples' performance, if it is only used for personal-tacking? > My original post, and current context, is STILL a personal-only dps meter. This being said, I do not have any problems with a group meter either. But to iterate again, as I have done so many times in this thread. I am talking about a personal ONLY meter. As I know, through experience, over the last 10 years of playing games like this, that a real-time dps meter helps me track the way I play and what happens when I change tactics. Right now, I'm not even using a meter. Because I don't like the idea of having a program sniffing network traffic and hooking into memory that I have no control over. I believe that current meters and the support given to them is lacking, Anet either needs to say they will not support them any further or that they are working on a solution that everyone can appreciate. Currently, getting a dps meter is not worth that security risk to me. Which is why I started this thread to begin with. Anet has many potential solutions to this. Providing a direct API into what happens in the game, something that can be 100% controllable by them. They can offer an in-game solution. They can declare DPS meters an unfair advantage to players choosing not to use them (whether right or wrong, they could claim this and be done with these topics/problems). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said: > > I used the term **current example** to show the problem with an example. As it is explained in the How to Give Good Feedback, I should not only use personal assumptions but also mention an example, what I did. It is a good example for that case, as it shows easily where the risks are. In addition I gave a little hint, how to avoid such situations in a direct tone. > Unless I'm mistaken, this was your only contribution and argument. If not, I apoligize. What I've seen, is that all examples of why DPS meters are abusive snd should be banned have been anecdotal or straw-man in the presentation. No real data, no concrete evidence of it affecting the community as a whole... Just players who ran into a jerk one day and use it against the topic. And ultimately, people have proved that pre-meter... People were jerks about the same thing in other ways. So (I may be stretching a bit here) there's still no valid argument presented as to why they should be banned. Although I think not discouraging a community to download a network sniffer is a poor response to the current situation. (Again, no offense deltaconnected, I think what you've done is awesome. I'm just not going to use it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"deadpool.7036" said: > > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said: > > > > I used the term **current example** to show the problem with an example. As it is explained in the How to Give Good Feedback, I should not only use personal assumptions but also mention an example, what I did. It is a good example for that case, as it shows easily where the risks are. In addition I gave a little hint, how to avoid such situations in a direct tone. > > > > Unless I'm mistaken, this was your only contribution and argument. If not, I apoligize. > > What I've seen, is that all examples of why DPS meters are abusive snd should be banned have been anecdotal or straw-man in the presentation. No real data, no concrete evidence of it affecting the community as a whole... Just players who ran into a jerk one day and use it against the topic. And ultimately, people have proved that pre-meter... People were jerks about the same thing in other ways. > > So (I may be stretching a bit here) there's still no valid argument presented as to why they should be banned. Although I think not discouraging a community to download a network sniffer is a poor response to the current situation. (Again, no offense deltaconnected, I think what you've done is awesome. I'm just not going to use it.) I would say that players encountering other players that abuse the information IS about as valid an argument as you can get for not having DPS meters. This is fundamentally a service that provides entertainment to players. If there was a feature in it that allowed players to abuse others, I would seriously question the purpose of that feature in an entertainment service, unless the players were knowingly using that service to be abused for their own entertainment. Even if that's debatable to you, it's simply untrue that the only way to monitor and improve your performance is through a DPS meter ... It's not even the best way of all the available methods. If you break it down to what you are trying to do, DPS meters do not collect data, they simply show you a real time snapshot. That's not going to allow anyone to scientifically evaluate their performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Gehenna.3625" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them). > > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is. > > This here is probably one of the biggest myths with DPS meters. They don't tell you how to improve. At all. They don't tell you where the problem is. They just give you a measure of your current standing. Saying a DPS meter improves your DPS is like saying a yardstick makes you taller. The only way a DPS meter "solves" the problem is if you kick players with lower DPS and invite in somebody better. Bang on ... and to add that ... DPS meters that monitor INDIVIDUAL performance isn't going to help a team with enrage timers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > I would say that players encountering other players that abuse the information IS about as valid an argument as you can get for not having DPS meters. This is fundamentally a service that provides entertainment to players. If there was a feature in it that allowed players to abuse others, I would seriously question the purpose of that feature in an entertainment service. This objection has already been answered, multiple times. Even addressed in what you quoted. Multiple people have answered this. With everything that's been said thus far, I'm uncertain why you think it still has gone unanswered or unaddressed. The encounters with players are real but anecdotal, the arguments are anecdotal, and there is concrete evidence that supports that do meters did not CAUSE this... It already existed at the beginning of the game. If anything, a DPS meter could prove that maybe a jerk was RIGHT. And instead someone's complaining about someone telling them a hard truth. As mentioned multiple times in this thread. Tha the guy auto attacking 50% of the time.... We're all confused how he got to 80 and is running fractals. Fundamentally a "service" that provides entertainment. Well, no, not really. It's a software product/service combination that provides and online interactive experience with other (real) people. In some facets the game is inherintely competitive and team-based in it's nature and encourages players to push the boundaries. Mind you, that you are playing with people that live in the (real) world who are sometimes know to be trolls. So if you combine the competitive aspect, with real world people, in a massive environment, of people who either want to casually play and others that want to show off.... Why is it surprising that these interactions occur? Just say "cool story bro" and move on. Instead of coming here to tell everyone they shouldn't be allowed to track their own performance in the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 Just because it's anecdotal doesn't mean it's not real and it shouldn't be considered. Calling for people to present quantitative data when you know they have access to none is a real disingenuous way to engage people in a discussion that disagree with you. That doesn't make their experience and the impact bad behaviour from players any less significant or meaningful to the health of the game. I never said you can't track your game performance; I'm just saying you don't need a DPS meter to do it ... or that this is even the best way for performance to be tracked. Frankly, it's a terrible way to do it. It's funny you spin this game as 'not' a entertainment service ... um, yes it is absolutely. Just because it's software and just because you interact with people doesn't make that a false statement. Are you saying that it's not a service or entertainment because it's method is through software and you interact with people? That makes no sense. No one is surprised these interactions occur, but then again, that's not a reason to embolden those that do them further with sanctioned, ingame tools, especially if there are better ways to allow a person to monitor their individual performance. The fact is that it's possible to have a tool that logs your performance **and** doesn't negatively impact other players. I don't get why someone that desires a performance monitoring tool so badly would not be OK with that, unless they want to use it to beat people over the heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 "...are real but anecdotal." -deadpool It's disengenious to misquote and misrepresent people. No quantitative? Go search the forums on the topic. People complaining specifically about dps meters causing problems. Go compare that to people talking about how certain builds suck. Then look at the polls that show far more people are interested in dps meter support than they are in "banning" them. Then consider the only real point made against them is that another player might use it to kick you or tell you you're bad. And that removing DPS meters doesn't fix that, and adding them doesn't suddenly make every a worse person. People choose to be jerks. The burden of proof is on the people making the claims that do meters are terrible for the community. While that's very difficult to prove... It's very easy to prove that people can be jerks online, DPS meters are a tool in a large toolbox for players to help themselves as they hone their skills, and that adding proper support would help offline a community from 3rd party tools that could be consider dangerous software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deadpool.7036 Posted October 24, 2018 Author Share Posted October 24, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Just because it's anecdotal doesn't mean it's not real and it shouldn't be considered. Calling for people to present quantitative data when you know they have access to none is a real disingenuous way to engage people in a discussion that disagree with you. That doesn't make their experience and the impact bad behaviour from players any less significant or meaningful to the health of the game. > > I never said you can't track your game performance; I'm just saying you don't need a DPS meter to do it ... or that this is even the best way for performance to be tracked. Frankly, it's a terrible way to do it. > > It's funny you spin this game as 'not' a entertainment service ... um, yes it is absolutely. Just because it's software and just because you interact with people doesn't make that a false statement. Are you saying that it's not a service or entertainment because it's method is through software and you interact with people? That makes no sense. > > No one is surprised these interactions occur, but then again, that's not a reason to embolden those that do them further with sanctioned, ingame tools, especially if there are better ways to allow a person to monitor their individual performance. The fact is that it's possible to have a tool that logs your performance **and** doesn't negatively impact other players. I don't get why someone that desires a performance monitoring tool so badly would not be OK with that, unless they want to use it to beat people over the heads. Well with your edits to the post... Sorry you think I'm some bully whose wants to put people down. I frequently use my meters (in other games) to compare myself to people better than myself. Ask them why they're better. And you know what? I've heard plenty of times "yeah, you guys suck". And you know what the response is? Nothing. There's no reason to engage with someone whose not helpful and instead pointedly putting people down. Move on. The service/software thing... You made it sound simple to make your point. I expanded it to ensure the competition aspects and other fundamentally important aspect we're being included. I thought this should make things clearer. You KEEP talking about better ways but present none. Combat log is not answer. And that's been addressed previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted October 24, 2018 Share Posted October 24, 2018 No, again, I'm not accusing you of being a bully ... you are imposing that on yourself to make the con-argument sound like an ad hominem attack. Combat log IS the answer to providing people feedback on performance and preventing abuse. Just because you want to ignore people are abused by these tools doesn't mean you can conclude DPS meter the best way. DPS meter isn't any good; It's simply not enough information to tell you how to improve. Thankfully, I don't have to worry about Anet turning GW2 into a WoW clone for bored WoW players .. they have enough work make GW2 work for bored GW2 players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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