Personal DPS and other self-tracking

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

 

>

> I don't care. My point stands that a DPS meter doesn't actually improve you, and saying that it can help you measure improvement acquired outside of the meter does not change this.

 

Strange then, that on ele I was doing 8kdps and had no idea I was performing that badly until I got a dps meter. I THOUGHT i was doing the rotation well in real time fights as I could get decent numbers on golem but the reality was I was delaying and interrupting my skills so often my dps was terrible.

 

DPS meter also taught me how to do burst damage on ele, back when staff was a thing. There was no rotation guide for this, and I honestly had no idea which skills in the generic rotation were most important and gave most damage. By going into fractals and trying out different skill rotations, I learned not only how to do the 40k bursts but also which skills in the rotation were actually important and which were filler. DPS meter gave me the feedback I needed to learn this.

 

So at least for me, DPS meters helped me improve ALOT, and I wouldnt have dont so otherwise without the meter.

 

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

 

>

> This is probably the second biggest myth. I still see players get chastised for bringing certain classes into fractals and raids. There's probably still LFGs that only want deadeyes and weavers. DPS meters didn't give permission for low performing classes to get into groups, they just give discriminatory players all the justification they need to kick first and ask questions never.

 

Never seen a group asking for only thieves or weavers. Not even 1k LI groups on monday reset. Dunno where you are getting that from. Some players do get kicked for their class in fractals tho. Usually when they bring condi, as fracs are designed to favor burst, and therefore pdps. Thats more a fault of game design though, rather than player attitude.

 

In raids the only dps spec that Ive seen get kicked recently purely for their class choice would be condi scourge. Thats because its numbers are pretty awful compared to all the other choices out there though. The spec needs a buff. And id like to add the rest of the group laughed at the commander for being so restrictive.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> No, again, I'm not accusing you of being a bully ... you are imposing that on yourself to make the con-argument sound like an ad hominem attack.

>

> Combat log IS the answer to providing people feedback on performance and preventing abuse. Just because you want to ignore people are abused by these tools doesn't mean you can conclude DPS meter the best way. DPS meter isn't any good; It's simply not enough information to tell you how to improve.

>

> Thankfully, I don't have to worry about Anet turning GW2 into a WoW clone for bored WoW players .. they have enough work make GW2 work for bored GW2 players.

 

It's not though, and because you think it is... I don't think we'll find common ground as we have wildly different perspectives on player performance and how I might use a meter vs yourself.

 

The con-argument isn't an attack... It's just a poor argument. Real, but poor. If you wanna make headway in banning dps meters or preventing whatever you think is happening... You need a better argument than "this one time someone was a jerk".

[Obtena.7952]

Poor or not, that's an opinion; I think it's a pretty good one and the fact we don't have an official ingame DPS meter ... I'm betting the 'poor arguments' being presented have some level of influence on that Anet decision. The stronger case is that you don't need a DPS meter for monitoring performance ... or if you do get one, it should ONLY monitor yours, or monitor your team as a whole. There isn't a reason to check what your other teammates are doing at the individual level. I actually DON'T need a better argument because I'm not the one petitioning for a non-existent feature in-game, you are. I'm thinking that if the pro's for a DPS meter outweighed the cons, we would have DPS meters ingame, but we don't. The burden to prove that's the case isn't on me to provide a better argument to keep the status quo.

 

Still, I think DPS meters are not the correct tool, because they are only indicative of DPS; that's not the whole picture of your performance. That's why I think people aren't telling the whole truth when they say they want a DPS meter to help them improve.

[Muusic.2967]

I agree with a lot of what has been said from all sides of the issue however I can honestly say that I feel dps meters are fine if they're used to measure one's own performance and are the current method for elitists and trolls to be picky in pugs. The old standard used to be AP, i remember when no one under 5kAP would be accepted into groups. After that Some groups started requiring members to ping their gear. Now the decision is made by the dps meters.

 

No matter how the elitists decide to be picky, it's going to happen. The solution is to group with quality people and friends who will mentor and encourage you in ways to better your play instead of kicking you to the curb. If you got rid of the meters it would not solve human nature, it would only cause it to adapt.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Poor or not, that's an opinion; I think it's a pretty good one and the fact we don't have an official ingame DPS meter ... I'm betting the 'poor arguments' being presented have some level of influence on that Anet decision. The stronger case is that you don't need a DPS meter for monitoring performance ... or if you do get one, it should ONLY monitor yours, or monitor your team as a whole. There isn't a reason to check what your other teammates are doing at the individual level. I actually DON'T need a better argument because I'm not the one petitioning for a non-existent feature in-game, you are. I'm thinking that if the pro's for a DPS meter outweighed the cons, we would have DPS meters ingame, but we don't. The burden to prove that's the case isn't on me to provide a better argument to keep the status quo.

>

> Still, I think DPS meters are not the correct tool, because they are only indicative of DPS; that's not the whole picture of your performance. That's why I think people aren't telling the whole truth when they say they want a DPS meter to help them improve.

 

Alright yes. Keybindings, ergonomics, latency between pressing each button, up-time on your damage output, world navigation, interrupts, saving high dps abilities for after an invulnerabality period, chaining correct attacks... Should I go on? Those improve performance. A DPS meter tracks how well, all of those things combined, when executed correctly, do overall in your damage output. DPS performance. Not wether or not you do mechanics (but it would track how you not know mechanics, failing them, FINALLY getring back to the group made your dps drop). So in a way, it can be a SEVERELY helpful tool if you know how to use it.

 

This isn't DPS meter education, or performance education.

 

You say it's an opinion but present as an argument against it. Which is it?

 

Did Anet actually make a decision to NOT make one? Or did they consciously make a decision to not support add-ons? Or did they ever enter this realm? If you have information on when/how they made any decisions related to this, please let me know. Otherwise this is again a very hollow statement to include in your post.

 

I'm pettitioning the community about their feelings about what they think about the current state of DPS meters... In a way that opens line of communication far beyond "ban or no ban", like the other anti-dps meter guys whose post is now gone. I'm not contacting Anet to say "hey look, do this". They can make their own decisions based on what they see and know (which is probably more than little old me). And quite frankly the most alarming thing is that's thousands of people have software running on their computers that for all they know could be a virus (again, sorry deltaconnected, I hope you understand, it's a point of argument, not something I believe is actually happening).

 

As I said previously, adding DPS meters to the game, doesnt profit or benefit Anet at this phase. It's extra work for little return and COULD POTENTIALLY HARM THEIR PROFITS when they release another xpac at this point. Adding add-on support could also cause problems not worth dealing with. Just because Anet hasn't added this feature doesn't mean you're right about how they came to this decision or that it's "obviously" a bad idea?

 

We're coming full circle, I'm restating stuff I've already said answering revised questions with the same answers as befoe.... You won't be satisfied with my answers. You have an opinion about this topic, I've presented many arguments. Nothing has progressed. I encourage you to keep on playing, ignore the jerks, probably just ignore me, and keep engaging in what you find entertaining or fruitful.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Just because it's anecdotal doesn't mean it's not real and it shouldn't be considered. Calling for people to present quantitative data when you know they have access to none is a real disingenuous way to engage people in a discussion that disagree with you. That doesn't make their experience and the impact bad behaviour from players any less significant or meaningful to the health of the game.

 

Thank you.

 

@"deadpool.7036"

1.) I agree that you only want to talk about self-tracking only.

2.) I apologize for moving you into the mass-tracking-corner, you obviously do not belong to those people.

3.) The toxicity among the players is an old problem indeed. I remember the days when the AP score was the only way to tell about the experience of a player. Right now we have raids with LI and kill-proofs. I would like to live in a world where we all have fun together, without staring on each others performance. But humans are ... humans.

People are used to compare themselves with others. But to do that, they need data. Where is no exact data, they have to rely on more vague resources. With personal tracking, it would be difficult. But not impossible. That is why I do not like dps-meters in general.

 

ANet has a very interesting idea of prioritizing and solving problems. Normally they do not interfere with our self-created dramas. But the dps-meters are tolerated by them, so they are technically involved. Judging from previous situations, I guess they currently work on a solution. Threads like your poll keep the discussion up and show them how important the topic is to us. Maybe we stumble upon a possible/better solution during our discussions.

 

Thank you for the poll and all the work and time you've put into answering us. I really appreciate it.

 

[deadpool.7036]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> But the dps-meters are tolerated by them, so they are technically involved. Judging from previous situations, I guess they currently work on a solution. Threads like your poll keep the discussion up and show them how important the topic is to us. Maybe we stumble upon a possible/better solution during our discussions.

>

> Thank you for the poll and all the work and time you've put into answering us. I really appreciate it.

>

 

I would LOVE to see an Anet unique solution. And I'm looking forward to more improvements to an already great game.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Just because it's anecdotal doesn't mean it's not real and it shouldn't be considered. Calling for people to present quantitative data when you know they have access to none is a real disingenuous way to engage people in a discussion that disagree with you. That doesn't make their experience and the impact bad behaviour from players any less significant or meaningful to the health of the game.

>

 

But it does show a lack of knowing the whole picture, which counters the grand sweeping claims these post also tend to make. Their experience is irrelevant in the face of data, and no logical person worth their salt will just accept a random experience that a person didn't prove actually happened as a data point for whether something should be banned or not.

 

It's not disingenuous, its rational, it's logical, and most of all, it is part of the scientific process. You know what is disingenuous? Presenting an anecdote as something more meaningful than what it is, an anecdote, which don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Those things only mean something to the people who presented them, and people who for some reason, think everyones 'lived experience' means something more than it actually does.

 

If they don't have access to quantitative data, then maybe they should stop trying to make claims. That is their own fault, and no one elses. And they should in fact be dismissed.

 

That which is presented without evidence, shall be dismissed as such.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > Just because it's anecdotal doesn't mean it's not real and it shouldn't be considered. Calling for people to present quantitative data when you know they have access to none is a real disingenuous way to engage people in a discussion that disagree with you. That doesn't make their experience and the impact bad behaviour from players any less significant or meaningful to the health of the game.

> >

>

> But it does show a lack of knowing the whole picture, which counters the grand sweeping claims these post also tend to make. Their experience is irrelevant in the face of data, and no logical person worth their salt will just accept a random experience that a person didn't prove actually happened as a data point for whether something should be banned or not.

>

> It's not disingenuous, its rational, it's logical, and most of all, it is part of the scientific process. You know what is disingenuous? Presenting an anecdote as something more meaningful than what it is, an anecdote, which don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Those things only mean something to the people who presented them, and people who for some reason, think everyones 'lived experience' means something more than it actually does.

>

> If they don't have access to quantitative data, then maybe they should stop trying to make claims. That is their own fault, and no one elses. And they should in fact be dismissed.

>

> That which is presented without evidence, shall be dismissed as such.

 

... and quantitative data wouldn't provide that either. The problem is that these are not random experiences; we have seen through out the history of this game, people using DPS reports and equivalents to treat others badly. Ignoring this happens, more frequently than it should, just to get a tool that would enable the practice further is simply not an honest approach to recognizing how players interact with the game and each other.

 

you can tout the scientific process all you want ... this isn't an academic exercise. It's a business that should be catering to it's established customer base with the original tenets of the game; not catering to the fringe that erodes the very reason most people adopted it. Frankly, if you want DPS meters, you got them already; asking for more doesn't make sense, for various reasons.

 

I mean .. where is YOUR scientific data to suggest this should happen? What is the data-driven decision that says we should have ingame DPS meters? It's pretty bold faced to play that card when it's effects are worse when played on you. Let me tell you what I do have ... a game 6 years out that doesn't need DPS meters to be successful and cater to it's core market. That's actually some pretty compelling data right there for not having ingame DPS meters.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> Blood, you're getting side tracked a bit.

>

> No one's saying that a DPS meter inherantly improves you... It's a measurement tool. Much like checking your pulse shows the payoff or working out. Or a Dyno test on an engine shows the increased perform ance of modifications to the engine.

>

> Other things have to be done to change what the meter shows... Because a meter just shows the result of what you did.

>

> So if you're against meters.... How do you propose I measure a small tweak in damage output? Or time a kill?

>

> If you're not against meters, I think we're getting a bit off-topic.

 

I'm not sidetracked. I responded to somebody who said that DPS meters improve players. Everyone else has decided to impose another argument on top of that, or to distract from that point to try and prove that DPS meters improve players. **People just spent the last 12 hours trying to tell me that DPS players improve you.** People are still doing it, too. Just look:

 

 

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> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Because apparently a Thief or a Condi SB doesn't know to flank unless the meter tells them to.

>

> Maybe they do but don't actually do it in combat, you know when there are lots of other mechanics, paying attention to the rotation and so on. Knowing how much time you spent flanking is a good way of improving yourself.

 

Hello, Giraffe #1.

 

Knowing how much time you spent flanking doesn't mean anything when you already know the end goal. Ideally, flank 100% of the time. Realistically, flank for as much time as possible, because combat is random sometimes. Knowing that you did well or not so well at a fight doesn't change that goal. Unless a meter magically lets you turn around faster or something.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Meters don't help you compare rotations or produce a meaningful improvement from that comparison, nor provide insights into that comparison to explain why one is better than the other.

>

> You can see the DPS of someone using the same build as you, if they did way more damage then you can check their rotation and compare with yours. The damage by type is great for this, for example if the other person is doing more than double bleeding damage than you, it means you need to prioritize your bleeding skills more. There is something in your rotation that you are doing wrong.

 

There's only one way to have a build, know that another person on the same class is running the exact same build, and to compare the rotation of that build. That way is if both of you have already conferred with an outside source on build craft, and are both implementing the same strategies as distributed by that outside source. At that point, you've already received all of the realistic help that you can get, because the only way to improve DPS at that point is with practice and luck, if you so happen to have the potential to improve at that point. Even then, knowing somebody did better with the same build doesn't provide insight as to why it worked. For all a player knows, it is random chance, or a better gaming rig, or marcros, or a better internet connection.

 

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Everyone knows to keep maximum scholar uptime, to not fail mechanics, to maintain boons, and to maintain conditions without needing a meter to tell them so.

>

> If that was true then you wouldn't see players failing to keep scholar up-time, failing mechanics and failing to maintain boons and conditions, but they do. Sometimes you don't even notice that you did, a meter will tell you.

 

It's called combat. The enemy is trying to kill you. Sometimes, they succeed. Random and bad things happen all the time, and the mechanics are meant to be dangerous. Or are you trying to argue that every time somebody drops below 90% health it is solely because they lost the clarity to maintain good health?

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Improvement requires direction and untapped potential, neither of which a DPS meter gives.

>

> Comparing your dps with someone running the same build, checking their rotations, and then improving your own, is how a meter can direct you properly.

>

> Of course all of the above are mostly for static groups that analyze the logs so their players get better after each run. In pugs this is probably useless information anyway.

 

As I said above, that doesn't happen unless you're already making it happen, and the meter doesn't cause you to do this. Crawling over logs and seeing who is doing better is just the incredibly inefficient and time consuming alternative to going over to Snowcrows and copying their build.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Edit: and something I forgot, but it's important: a meter will tell you if your lack of dps was due to you missing the rotation, or your supports not providing enough support. Sometimes your dps might be lower than the other guy in the other sub-group, even though you do perfect rotations. This is hard to see in real time sometimes (unless you pay attention to boon up-time) but especially after a run you can check and see if the Might generation, or Alacrity or whatever wasn't good enough.

 

This isn't the meter improving you. This is the meter telling you that it was factors out of your control, and that there's nothing you can personally do about it.

 

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

>

> >

> > I don't care. My point stands that a DPS meter doesn't actually improve you, and saying that it can help you measure improvement acquired outside of the meter does not change this.

>

> Strange then, that on ele I was doing 8kdps and had no idea I was performing that badly until I got a dps meter. I THOUGHT i was doing the rotation well in real time fights as I could get decent numbers on golem but the reality was I was delaying and interrupting my skills so often my dps was terrible.

>

> DPS meter also taught me how to do burst damage on ele, back when staff was a thing. There was no rotation guide for this, and I honestly had no idea which skills in the generic rotation were most important and gave most damage. By going into fractals and trying out different skill rotations, I learned not only how to do the 40k bursts but also which skills in the rotation were actually important and which were filler. DPS meter gave me the feedback I needed to learn this.

>

> So at least for me, DPS meters helped me improve ALOT, and I wouldnt have dont so otherwise without the meter.

 

Hello, Giraffe #2.

 

This is common miss-attribution. People give all of the credit to DPS meters for making them aware that DPS exists, when throughout the history of the game players have been becoming aware of the DPS concept without meters. It's just rates, and once somebody grasps rates they begin to improve via common sense: don't cancel, string DPS skills together as fast as possible, prioritize the big numbers with short animation times, etc. All the meter did here as make you aware of a problem that you probably would've solved automatically as you became better at mashing buttons. Likewise, you taught yourself burst damage by experimenting with skills on your own. The fact that you didn't automatically know what the burst rotation was from the meter is proof enough that the meter wasn't the one helping you. A systematic approach is used when there's a lack of understanding in the method.

 

Also, there's a contradicting example: me. Ever since the servers moved and my health started failing my DPS hovers at around 70%, even for the easy classes. No matter what I do. Copying rotations and skills doesn't do anything, because my skills will randomly cancel when other people's don't, my character will randomly stall for 1/4th to 1/2 of a second where other people's don't, the game will eat inputs and not respond to button presses while other people don't have this problem. I once spent an entire day repeating the first 30 seconds of a fight on the DPS golem to try to emulate chrono burst. Three hours, resetting every 30 seconds, came to around 360 consecutive trials with absolutely no improvement. What am I doing wrong? No idea. The game magically refuses to work for me. I can't even replicate my failures, because sometimes a skill will cancel/delay/vanish and sometimes it doesn't with no indication as to why. The meter doesn't tell me what the problem is, all it does is spit out data and metaphorically shrugs, because all of the deficiencies in my performance are out of my control.

 

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

>

> >

> > This is probably the second biggest myth. I still see players get chastised for bringing certain classes into fractals and raids. There's probably still LFGs that only want deadeyes and weavers. DPS meters didn't give permission for low performing classes to get into groups, they just give discriminatory players all the justification they need to kick first and ask questions never.

>

> Never seen a group asking for only thieves or weavers. Not even 1k LI groups on monday reset. Dunno where you are getting that from. Some players do get kicked for their class in fractals tho. Usually when they bring condi, as fracs are designed to favor burst, and therefore pdps. Thats more a fault of game design though, rather than player attitude.

>

> In raids the only dps spec that Ive seen get kicked recently purely for their class choice would be condi scourge. Thats because its numbers are pretty awful compared to all the other choices out there though. The spec needs a buff. And id like to add the rest of the group laughed at the commander for being so restrictive.

 

You just gave an example yourself. "Never seen it happen, except for all the times I've seen it happen." I've seen LFGs demand specific classes all the time, and since I've seen it I really don't care if you have or have not. It's real.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> ... and quantitative data wouldn't provide that either. The problem is that these are not random experiences; we have seen through out the history of this game, people using DPS reports and equivalents to treat others badly. Ignoring this happens, more frequently than it should, just to get a tool that would enable the practice further is simply not an honest approach to recognizing how players interact with the game and each other.

>

> you can tout the scientific process all you want ... this isn't an academic exercise. It's a business that should be catering to it's established customer base with the original tenets of the game; not catering to the fringe that erodes the very reason most people adopted it. Frankly, if you want DPS meters, you got them already; asking for more doesn't make sense, for various reasons.

>

> I mean .. where is YOUR scientific data to suggest this should happen? What is the data-driven decision that says we should have ingame DPS meters? It's pretty bold faced to play that card when it's effects are worse when played on you. Let me tell you what I do have ... a game 6 years out that doesn't need DPS meters to be successful and cater to it's core market. That's actually some pretty compelling data right there for not having ingame DPS meters.

 

And before DPS meters it was meta builds, the data is in the poll, the "proposal" was a community dialogue and not what you make it out to be, game success is irrelevant if the point is simply suggestions for improvement otherwise QoL wouldn't exist, we're doing the science stuff now... You know asking the community... They seem to favor the meters.

 

I'm out, if this isn't trolling... I'm not sure what it is.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Just because it's anecdotal doesn't mean it's not real and it shouldn't be considered. Calling for people to present quantitative data when you know they have access to none is a real disingenuous way to engage people in a discussion that disagree with you. That doesn't make their experience and the impact bad behaviour from players any less significant or meaningful to the health of the game.

> > >

> >

> > But it does show a lack of knowing the whole picture, which counters the grand sweeping claims these post also tend to make. Their experience is irrelevant in the face of data, and no logical person worth their salt will just accept a random experience that a person didn't prove actually happened as a data point for whether something should be banned or not.

> >

> > It's not disingenuous, its rational, it's logical, and most of all, it is part of the scientific process. You know what is disingenuous? Presenting an anecdote as something more meaningful than what it is, an anecdote, which don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. Those things only mean something to the people who presented them, and people who for some reason, think everyones 'lived experience' means something more than it actually does.

> >

> > If they don't have access to quantitative data, then maybe they should stop trying to make claims. That is their own fault, and no one elses. And they should in fact be dismissed.

> >

> > That which is presented without evidence, shall be dismissed as such.

>

> ... and quantitative data wouldn't provide that either.

 

Because you are trying to prove something which has not a correlation. Go figure? It would only disprove what you are saying.

 

>.The problem is that these are not random experiences;

 

That is precisely what they are. If you can't prove A, though X experience, guess what that is. A random experience.

 

>we have seen through out the history of this game, people using DPS reports and equivalents to treat others badly.

 

And I'm supposed to agree that dps meters need to go because of this? Sometimes i dare even say its warranted, but thats another question entirely. The point is. So what.

 

It will happen regardless. You can stress yourself out over it. Or you can take my approach. Tell people to get over it and block the person. Simple. At least YOU have to tools to avoid people who waste your time. If only raiders got those tools from Anet.

 

>Ignoring this happens, more frequently than it should,

 

You used the word 'should'. How often 'should' anything happen? You are devolving into idealistic scenarios, which again, don't hold a candle.

 

>just to get a tool that would enable the practice further is simply not an honest approach to recognizing how players interact with the game and each other.

 

>enable

 

The practice will still go on even without dps meters. This is a genetic fallacy. Please stop.

 

In the same sentence you refuse to acknowledge how players interact, then accuse me of it. This is called gaslighting and projection Obtena. Please stop doing it. This is the definition of abusive behavior. Players will exhibit this behavior regardless. Removing dps meters wont change it, and you know that.

 

 

> you can tout the scientific process all you want ... this isn't an academic exercise.

 

This is in fact, an academic exercise. This is a poll meant to gauge community standing, IE, an academic exercise, and even if it wasn't. You don't just disregard the scientific method because it doesn't comfort your feelings. It is the best method by which we have to solve problems, regardless of what you think.

 

>It's a business that should be catering to it's established customer base with the original tenets of the game;

 

There is that nasty 'should' word again. The only people who 'should' be using that word in regards to Arena net, is Arena net. Also for your comment about the 'established playerbase', raiders for a huge portion ARE part of the established player base. GW2 marketed itself as a game for 'everyone'. It never however marketed itself as having content that shall be involved or played by everyone. Raiding is still within the framework of the 'original tenets', same with dps meters. You wanna know what isn't?

 

Ignoring a certain section of the community because casuals and anti-elitist nutcases. Ya know, that community which has done more for the game than any portion of the community. That portion of the community that spends time curating all those guides and 3rd party resources GW2 players are so fond of.

 

>not catering to the fringe that erodes the very reason most people adopted it. Frankly, if you want DPS meters, you got them already; asking for more doesn't make sense, for various reasons.

I haven't asked for 'more'. I appreciate it if you'd stop asserting things that are just flat out false. I'm here to defend the concept and implementation of dps meters from people who clearly have social issues and are looking for a scapegoat, for why said bad experienced happened. THAT is why i am here.

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > But the dps-meters are tolerated by them, so they are technically involved. Judging from previous situations, I guess they currently work on a solution. Threads like your poll keep the discussion up and show them how important the topic is to us. Maybe we stumble upon a possible/better solution during our discussions.

> >

> > Thank you for the poll and all the work and time you've put into answering us. I really appreciate it.

> >

>

> I would LOVE to see an Anet unique solution. And I'm looking forward to more improvements to an already great game.

 

Anet already gave a unique solution: the training golem. It lets people actively improve their abilities in variety of ways, gives all the tools necessary to theorycraft, while also not providing a means to excessively discriminate against players in your own group in the rest of the game.

 

The only other thing I've seen Anet vaguely mention is that they were going to look at the disparate performance between different players. To be frank, the DPS systems in this game are poorly designed. Some weapons and skills are terribly inferior to others, some rotations are an order of magnitude more difficult than others, and most players don't reaching maximum DPS. The whole system is terribly player unfriendly, with the majority of difficulty coming from fighting the interface. It is one of the biggest complaints I have about PVE myself.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> >

> > ... and quantitative data wouldn't provide that either. The problem is that these are not random experiences; we have seen through out the history of this game, people using DPS reports and equivalents to treat others badly. Ignoring this happens, more frequently than it should, just to get a tool that would enable the practice further is simply not an honest approach to recognizing how players interact with the game and each other.

> >

> > you can tout the scientific process all you want ... this isn't an academic exercise. It's a business that should be catering to it's established customer base with the original tenets of the game; not catering to the fringe that erodes the very reason most people adopted it. Frankly, if you want DPS meters, you got them already; asking for more doesn't make sense, for various reasons.

> >

> > I mean .. where is YOUR scientific data to suggest this should happen? What is the data-driven decision that says we should have ingame DPS meters? It's pretty bold faced to play that card when it's effects are worse when played on you. Let me tell you what I do have ... a game 6 years out that doesn't need DPS meters to be successful and cater to it's core market. That's actually some pretty compelling data right there for not having ingame DPS meters.

>

> And before DPS meters it was meta builds, the data is in the poll, the "proposal" was a community dialogue and not what you make it out to be, game success is irrelevant if the point is simply suggestions for improvement otherwise QoL wouldn't exist, we're doing the science stuff now... You know asking the community... They seem to favor the meters.

>

> I'm out, if this isn't trolling... I'm not sure what it is.

 

Wow, game success is irrelevant? That simply doesn't make any sense. What possible reason is there for Anet to waste time to implement a questionable feature if you don't need it to play and succeed at the game? We aren't even talking QoL here; how is the QoL in a game that doesn't need DPS meters improved by implementing them ingame? Again, that triggers a lot of alarms. None of the points you have make any sense. I would even argue (I won't bother to argue it, the dude above did a fantastic job of it already) that DPS meters have little impact on someone trying to improve playing and again, even if somehow they do ... you already have them.

 

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > > But the dps-meters are tolerated by them, so they are technically involved. Judging from previous situations, I guess they currently work on a solution. Threads like your poll keep the discussion up and show them how important the topic is to us. Maybe we stumble upon a possible/better solution during our discussions.

> > >

> > > Thank you for the poll and all the work and time you've put into answering us. I really appreciate it.

> > >

> >

> > I would LOVE to see an Anet unique solution. And I'm looking forward to more improvements to an already great game.

>

> Anet already gave a unique solution: the training golem. It lets people actively improve their abilities in variety of ways, gives all the tools necessary to theorycraft, while also not providing a means to excessively discriminate against players in your own group in the rest of the game.

>

> The only other thing I've seen Anet vaguely mention is that they were going to look at the disparate performance between different players. To be frank, the DPS systems in this game are poorly designed. Some weapons and skills are terribly inferior to others, some rotations are an order of magnitude more difficult than others, and most players don't reaching maximum DPS. The whole system is terribly player unfriendly, with the majority of difficulty coming from fighting the interface. It is one of the biggest complaints I have about PVE myself.

 

You mentioned the training dummy and not the AI trainers? The AI trainers are the most unique thing!

 

Can I get a timer then? Kill the dummy and then it reponds "You defeated me in 7.32 seconds?" There's a start. A very small one, but a start.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > >

> > > ... and quantitative data wouldn't provide that either. The problem is that these are not random experiences; we have seen through out the history of this game, people using DPS reports and equivalents to treat others badly. Ignoring this happens, more frequently than it should, just to get a tool that would enable the practice further is simply not an honest approach to recognizing how players interact with the game and each other.

> > >

> > > you can tout the scientific process all you want ... this isn't an academic exercise. It's a business that should be catering to it's established customer base with the original tenets of the game; not catering to the fringe that erodes the very reason most people adopted it. Frankly, if you want DPS meters, you got them already; asking for more doesn't make sense, for various reasons.

> > >

> > > I mean .. where is YOUR scientific data to suggest this should happen? What is the data-driven decision that says we should have ingame DPS meters? It's pretty bold faced to play that card when it's effects are worse when played on you. Let me tell you what I do have ... a game 6 years out that doesn't need DPS meters to be successful and cater to it's core market. That's actually some pretty compelling data right there for not having ingame DPS meters.

> >

> > And before DPS meters it was meta builds, the data is in the poll, the "proposal" was a community dialogue and not what you make it out to be, game success is irrelevant if the point is simply suggestions for improvement otherwise QoL wouldn't exist, we're doing the science stuff now... You know asking the community... They seem to favor the meters.

> >

> > I'm out, if this isn't trolling... I'm not sure what it is.

>

> Wow, game success is irrelevant? That simply doesn't make any sense. What possible reason is there for Anet to waste time to implement a questionable feature if you don't need it to play and succeed at the game? We aren't even talking QoL here; how is the QoL in a game that doesn't need DPS meters improved by implementing them ingame? None of the points you have make any sense. I would even argue (I won't bother to argue it, the dude above did a fantastic job of it already) that DPS meters have little impact on someone trying to improve playing and again, even if somehow they do ... you already have them.

>

 

 

I appreciate the feedback.

 

Thanks for sharing and contributing to the dialogue. It's good to have these very opposing views and results on display for Anet to see.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > >

> > > ... and quantitative data wouldn't provide that either. The problem is that these are not random experiences; we have seen through out the history of this game, people using DPS reports and equivalents to treat others badly. Ignoring this happens, more frequently than it should, just to get a tool that would enable the practice further is simply not an honest approach to recognizing how players interact with the game and each other.

> > >

> > > you can tout the scientific process all you want ... this isn't an academic exercise. It's a business that should be catering to it's established customer base with the original tenets of the game; not catering to the fringe that erodes the very reason most people adopted it. Frankly, if you want DPS meters, you got them already; asking for more doesn't make sense, for various reasons.

> > >

> > > I mean .. where is YOUR scientific data to suggest this should happen? What is the data-driven decision that says we should have ingame DPS meters? It's pretty bold faced to play that card when it's effects are worse when played on you. Let me tell you what I do have ... a game 6 years out that doesn't need DPS meters to be successful and cater to it's core market. That's actually some pretty compelling data right there for not having ingame DPS meters.

> >

> > And before DPS meters it was meta builds, the data is in the poll, the "proposal" was a community dialogue and not what you make it out to be, game success is irrelevant if the point is simply suggestions for improvement otherwise QoL wouldn't exist, we're doing the science stuff now... You know asking the community... They seem to favor the meters.

> >

> > I'm out, if this isn't trolling... I'm not sure what it is.

>

> Wow, game success is irrelevant? That simply doesn't make any sense. What possible reason is there for Anet to waste time to implement a questionable feature if you don't need it to play and succeed at the game? We aren't even talking QoL here; how is the QoL in a game that doesn't need DPS meters improved by implementing them ingame? Again, that triggers a lot of alarms. None of the points you have make any sense. I would even argue (I won't bother to argue it, the dude above did a fantastic job of it already) that DPS meters have little impact on someone trying to improve playing and again, even if somehow they do ... you already have them.

>

 

The same reason they spent months on us the abilitiy to sit in chair. Reask yourself this question, because I'm sure we both can name plenty of things that are 'fluff' in this game, but add to the general QoL.

 

The QoL provided by dps meters in regards to build diversity, build testing, dps testing, and even support build testing, are immeasurable. The 'meta' in this game is the best it has been in all of GW2's existence and part of that is due to dps meters (and their logs) and player feedback from said meters (and their logs).

 

If having parsed data in an easy to read format isn't QoL, then you are deliberately using another definition from the rest of us. Or you are just lying. But nah, you would never do that. -sarcasm-

[Obtena.7952]

> @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > >

> > > > ... and quantitative data wouldn't provide that either. The problem is that these are not random experiences; we have seen through out the history of this game, people using DPS reports and equivalents to treat others badly. Ignoring this happens, more frequently than it should, just to get a tool that would enable the practice further is simply not an honest approach to recognizing how players interact with the game and each other.

> > > >

> > > > you can tout the scientific process all you want ... this isn't an academic exercise. It's a business that should be catering to it's established customer base with the original tenets of the game; not catering to the fringe that erodes the very reason most people adopted it. Frankly, if you want DPS meters, you got them already; asking for more doesn't make sense, for various reasons.

> > > >

> > > > I mean .. where is YOUR scientific data to suggest this should happen? What is the data-driven decision that says we should have ingame DPS meters? It's pretty bold faced to play that card when it's effects are worse when played on you. Let me tell you what I do have ... a game 6 years out that doesn't need DPS meters to be successful and cater to it's core market. That's actually some pretty compelling data right there for not having ingame DPS meters.

> > >

> > > And before DPS meters it was meta builds, the data is in the poll, the "proposal" was a community dialogue and not what you make it out to be, game success is irrelevant if the point is simply suggestions for improvement otherwise QoL wouldn't exist, we're doing the science stuff now... You know asking the community... They seem to favor the meters.

> > >

> > > I'm out, if this isn't trolling... I'm not sure what it is.

> >

> > Wow, game success is irrelevant? That simply doesn't make any sense. What possible reason is there for Anet to waste time to implement a questionable feature if you don't need it to play and succeed at the game? We aren't even talking QoL here; how is the QoL in a game that doesn't need DPS meters improved by implementing them ingame? Again, that triggers a lot of alarms. None of the points you have make any sense. I would even argue (I won't bother to argue it, the dude above did a fantastic job of it already) that DPS meters have little impact on someone trying to improve playing and again, even if somehow they do ... you already have them.

> >

>

> The same reason they spent months on us the abilitiy to sit in chair. Reask yourself this question, because I'm sure we both can name plenty of things that are 'fluff' in this game, but add to the general QoL.

 

No, the reason they spend months on that is to sell us chairs. Sitting in chairs ... or DPS meters has nothing to do with QoL because neither improve the quality of game life. It's not like sitting in a chair is any different than sitting on the ground and likewise; it's not like raiding without a DPS meter is any better than raiding with one. If you want to include time as a factor in raiding, DPS meter doesn't help you with picking the right team; you're already all in.

>

> The QoL provided by dps meters in regards to build diversity, build testing, dps testing, and even support build testing, are immeasurable. The 'meta' in this game is the best it has been in all of GW2's existence and part of that is due to dps meters (and their logs) and player feedback from said meters (and their logs).

>

That's not an accurate statement. DPS meters promote build diversity? That's not true. If anything DPS meters are used to 'throw away" builds that aren't meta. The whole idea of anyone that wants a DPS meter is to nail down that one, best build. Sure, DPS meter allows you to measure DPS output ... but that's not the only way to measure DPS output. There are ways to do that AND make a tool that can't be used to badger other players.

 

> If having parsed data in an easy to read format isn't QoL, then you are deliberately using another definition from the rest of us. Or you are just lying. But nah, you would never do that. -sarcasm-

 

Except a DPS meter isn't easy to read or parsed ... yet you want that. It's simply a number that appears on the screen. I mean, maybe we are talking about two different things here. I'm not against a system that allows a player to see their damage, even though I think a meter implementation is not a good way to do that. I am against a system that enables others to see someone else.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>

> What possible reason is there for Anet to waste time to implement a questionable feature if you don't need it to play and succeed at the game?

 

ANet already has "wasted" a lot of time to provide a boatload of features which are not necessary to succeed at the game. They did so because some players wanted those features. No feature added after release (anything referred to as QoL, for instance) was necessary to either play the game or succeed at it (whatever that means).

 

As to questionable, other features were also questioned by one segment of the player-base or more. One such was Ascended Gear, whose implementation resulted in a mega-thread of discussion with many more complaints about it than there have been about DPS meters. Sometimes, the reasons why are opaque to the complaining players.

 

As to your assertion that meters cause exclusion, that's a fallacy. Exclusion usually has an excuse attached to it, but it has and will continue to exist regardless of whatever excuses are current. The cause of exclusion is the conflict between players who want to be included in any group for their convenience and those who want to tailor their groups to their convenience. The only sane solution to that conflict is for people who have conflicting goals not to play with each other. Any other solution will fail.

[FrostDraco.8306]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>No, the reason they spend months on that is to sell us chairs. Sitting in chairs ... or DPS meters has nothing to do with QoL because neither improve the quality of my game life. It's not like sitting in a chair is any different than sitting on the ground and likewise; it's not like raiding without a DPS meter is any better than raiding with one. Throwing around Qo

 

They didn't have to go back and retroactively edit every chair in the world to allow us to sit in it, in order to sell us chairs. Dhumms chair by itself is proof of this as it existed before the update.

 

Wing 5 release: november 2017

Chairs of the world release: march 2018

 

Time difference? 5 months. Now do you wanna repeat that again for people who don't know better? Why would they add a chair that is sittable without doing all the others at the same time if the only thing they wanted to do was sell us chairs? And as a RAID reward no less? It couldnt have been a QoL feature they wanted to add to the game right? One of their most REQUESTED features (as stated by GW2 devs in their own 'Seat of Power' Video), was simply about money? Man i thought I was cynical but this takes the cake.

 

And to your last point. Raiding with a dps meter is so different than raiding without one, I have refused to go without one since I first installed it, back when they were against ToS, and not supported at all. Ya know, which people would still be doing even if they said ARCdps was no longer allowed. I don't like stumbling around blind without information about my surroundings. Some of us people in the jungle would like to survive the night.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>That's not an accurate statement. DPS meters promote build diversity? That's not true. If anything DPS meters are used to 'throw away" builds that aren't meta. The whole idea of anyone that wants a DPS meter is to nail down that one, best build.

 

And this is where i call you out on your lie. See unlike you, I value the scientific method, and have various know-hows on how to prove information.

 

You are familiar with the wayback machine right? It's used to archive webpages in their states before they are tampered, or deleted.

 

Here is meta battles page in:

 

Jan 2016: https://web.archive.org/web/20160116063633/http://metabattle.com:80/wiki/Raid

 

April 2018: https://web.archive.org/web/20180411220710/http://metabattle.com:80/wiki/Raid

 

What do you see? More recommended builds (due to elite specs and balance patches), almost 3x as many. Almost 5x as many "great", over 10x as many "good", builds. And most of it can be directly traced back to testing done with dps meters (of which i know people were using then because thats when arc became really good), and testing, relentlessly and providing feedback. You can't take that away. It's pointless to try.

 

There is no 'best build' there is only 'best at'. Spouting off archaic talking points wont change the fact that you are lying about the point. The point of dps meters in incontrovertible evidence to support a build. And to that, they work perfectly as intended. There is no one best build, and people aren't seeking it out. It's a fools errand.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

>except a DPS meter isn't easy to read or parsed ... yet you want that. It's simply a number that appears on the screen

 

Now i can either conclude you are a troll. Or lying because you have run out of options.

 

Raid log parsing sites:

https://dps.report

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

 

Not easy to read you say? Not parsed you say? There it literally a button in arc dps which parses encounter data so long as you turn it on. But i doubt you have even used it, so how would you know?

 

Example of a 'parsed log: https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/IncorporatesFiercerTrailParametersRinging

 

Yea there sure is simply a number on the screen. Ironic all of these "numbers" are provided by that same 'meter'. Ready to admit you are wrong, or are you gonna double down now?

 

Edit:

 

>I'm not against a system that allows a player to see their damage, even though I think a meter implementation is not a good way to do that. I am against a system that enables others to see someone else.

 

Anything that measures said players dps, is a meter. Really man? This is getting sad,

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Knowing how much time you spent flanking doesn't mean anything when you already know the end goal. Ideally, flank 100% of the time. Realistically, flank for as much >time as possible, because combat is random sometimes. Knowing that you did well or not so well at a fight doesn't change that goal. Unless a meter magically lets you >turn around faster or something.

 

So how many thieves and soulbeasts flank VG during his CC?

While yeah, they probably know that flanking is good for them, they might not do it in combat without even realizing.

The raid combat in this game is rarely random. There are set patterns and timings.

Sloth and Matthias are the only random encounters that will change your own DPS outcome.

While the walls on SH are random, everyone else has to deal with them. So you can still compare yourself with another person.

 

> There's only one way to have a build, know that another person on the same class is running the exact same build, and to compare the rotation of that build. That way is >if both of you have already conferred with an outside source on build craft, and are both implementing the same strategies as distributed by that outside source. At that >point, you've already received all of the realistic help that you can get, because the only way to improve DPS at that point is with practice and luck, if you so happen to >have the potential to improve at that point. Even then, knowing somebody did better with the same build doesn't provide insight as to why it worked. For all a player >knows, it is random chance, or a better gaming rig, or marcros, or a better internet connection.

 

And if someone runs the same class but a different build/rotation you can still compare. That person literally showed you that there's another build, probably doing better than yours. You can then parse the log and see what that person has done.

 

> It's called combat. The enemy is trying to kill you. Sometimes, they succeed. Random and bad things happen all the time, and the mechanics are meant to be dangerous. >Or are you trying to argue that every time somebody drops below 90% health it is solely because they lost the clarity to maintain good health?

 

Like I said above. There aren't that many random things that only affect your personal DPS.

Considering that most people need a second healer in raids, yeah. I actually think that some people don't even have that clarity.

 

 

> As I said above, that doesn't happen unless you're already making it happen, and the meter doesn't cause you to do this. Crawling over logs and seeing who is doing >better is just the incredibly inefficient and time consuming alternative to going over to Snowcrows and copying their build.

 

So where does snwocrows copy from to get the builds everyone else can copy?

 

> This isn't the meter improving you. This is the meter telling you that it was factors out of your control, and that there's nothing you can personally do about it.

 

You can still compare yourself with other people in the same subgroup. The boons should be equal there.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Knowing how much time you spent flanking doesn't mean anything when you already know the end goal. Ideally, flank 100% of the time. Realistically, flank for as much time as possible, because combat is random sometimes. Knowing that you did well or not so well at a fight doesn't change that goal. Unless a meter magically lets you turn around faster or something.

 

It means you aren't actively going into flank positions. Or maybe you need to remember what flanking means. Now if you DO understand what flanking means, and your flanking percentage is very low, then you are having other issues, even more so, if others in your team are perfectly capable of flanking when you are not.

 

> There's only one way to have a build, know that another person on the same class is running the exact same build, and to compare the rotation of that build. That way is if both of you have already conferred with an outside source on build craft, and are both implementing the same strategies as distributed by that outside source. At that point, you've already received all of the realistic help that you can get, because the only way to improve DPS at that point is with practice and luck, if you so happen to have the potential to improve at that point. Even then, knowing somebody did better with the same build doesn't provide insight as to why it worked. For all a player knows, it is random chance, or a better gaming rig, or marcros, or a better internet connection.

 

Reading the rotation and performing it well are two completely different things. The guide will tell you the rotation, the meter will tell you how well you performed that rotation.

 

> It's called combat. The enemy is trying to kill you. Sometimes, they succeed. Random and bad things happen all the time, and the mechanics are meant to be dangerous. Or are you trying to argue that every time somebody drops below 90% health it is solely because they lost the clarity to maintain good health?

 

No I'm trying to say that there are examples of failing that are based on your own mistakes, for example failing to stay closer to their healers to keep your health up. There is even a graph that shows how the actual fight went, and you can see where you were during the fight. Positioning is important and you can't really learn that from reading a guide.

 

> As I said above, that doesn't happen unless you're already making it happen, and the meter doesn't cause you to do this. Crawling over logs and seeing who is doing better is just the incredibly inefficient and time consuming alternative to going over to Snowcrows and copying their build.

 

Copying a snowcrows build doesn't mean you mastered it or that you can actually perform well using that build. Crawling over logs will give you insight on what you did wrong, even without noticing, no especially without noticing. You might think you are doing the rotation well, but then figure out that in reality you are not. You might believe you are flanking, but in reality you are not. The all mighty players that believe that just because they copied Snowcrows are actually masters of the game (when they aren't) are too many in this game. If that was even remotely true then we wouldn't see any huge dps differences, after all, they are all using Snowcrows builds right? Using a build is more than copying the traits and skills, something a guide will never be able to tell you. Seeing in action though? That's way more important and valuable as a lesson.

 

> This isn't the meter improving you. This is the meter telling you that it was factors out of your control, and that there's nothing you can personally do about it.

It improves the team as a whole, which is why I said this type of meter data is useful in static groups and not in random groups. The meter "tells you" that it wasn't you at fault but someone else, and that someone else needs to fix their rotations some more.

[Gehenna.3625]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > Even DPS meters aren't needed, because we have rage timers in raids (or whatever you want to call them).

> > No. Enrage timers are the only reason why you would actually need DPS meters. So the opposite is true. When you have enrage timers you need to kill the boss within that time. If your group fails to achieve this, you want to solve that problem and improve your DPS so you can beat the boss. But how can you solve it and improve, when you don't know where the problem is? DPS meters will tell you where the problem is.

>

> This here is probably one of the biggest myths with DPS meters. They don't tell you how to improve. At all. They don't tell you where the problem is. They just give you a measure of your current standing. Saying a DPS meter improves your DPS is like saying a yardstick makes you taller. The only way a DPS meter "solves" the problem is if you kick players with lower DPS and invite in somebody better.

 

It isn't. And it's also a matter of you not reading correctly and making assumptions. So let me try to explain in another way what I said and see if you understand now.

 

DPS meters, which I call parsers normally, tell you things like who did how much DPS. I don't know the GW2 ones but for SWTOR it tells you a lot more like which skills were used and for how much percentage of your total damage they were responsible as an individual player.

 

So the first thing you can see is WHERE the problem is. I said where in my post. And once you know where or who in this case, you can look at any additional data to see if there's an indication of what is or isn't happening. For example, again in SWTOR, there were skills that based on a rotation do more damage than if you don't follow the rotation. Call them combo effects. When people do not use this combo of skills this will be visible. Also you see which skills are used as in frequency. So you can see how much auto-attack is going on, to use a GW2 element.

 

So even though it certainly doesn't tell you everything, calling it a myth that you can find out anything about what improvements via a parser is just false. And the first step when you fail in beating a boss's enrage timer is finding out where the issue is before you go into the how.

 

People will often say they know what to do, even within guilds and you may be surprised how many people exaggerate their abilities or simply lie because they think they can get away with it and just be lazy. That's a rotten attitude but it happens.

 

Also doing rotations on test dummies or whatever is not the same as actual boss fights where a lot of movement is involved, especially in GW2 I would say. This movement can be disruptive to the DPS levels you could make on a dummy. So also there the parser is useful to see actual performance. When someone is, for example, not doing nearly as many hits as expected you can look into the why of that. Without that you have nothing to go on. To dismiss that as a myth is just not right. As I said, I agree it doesn't tell you everything but it does give you indications about the who and gives you some starting points at what to look at...provided you know what you're doing with parsers of course.

 

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Cynn.1659" said:

 

>

> **What do raids offer?**

> 1. Toxic elitism that starts ruining the game for everyone.

 

I strongly disagree. I think it's the group of raiders you are in that's toxic. Those ppl I'd avoid playing with. My previous few static pug that I played with.. are chill and none toxic. Due with unforeseen work schedule changed . I had to abandon previous group and currently slowly making another group and pug remaining spot.. we are all none toxic and chill players and respect each other.. you will find toxic players in any game mode with or without DPs meter. Toxic players will always be that way.. they comes with bad attitude and no intention or care on how you feel or enjoy your game. Avoid playing with these selfish players and you will enjoy the game better. Remove DPs meter won't help you to fit in that group better

Btw cynn, u have done all cms had over 1.6k li.. first EU dhuum cm pug group...

I'm sure u know it better :)

[yann.1946]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > >

> > > I used the term **current example** to show the problem with an example. As it is explained in the How to Give Good Feedback, I should not only use personal assumptions but also mention an example, what I did. It is a good example for that case, as it shows easily where the risks are. In addition I gave a little hint, how to avoid such situations in a direct tone.

> > >

> >

> > Unless I'm mistaken, this was your only contribution and argument. If not, I apoligize.

> >

> > What I've seen, is that all examples of why DPS meters are abusive snd should be banned have been anecdotal or straw-man in the presentation. No real data, no concrete evidence of it affecting the community as a whole... Just players who ran into a jerk one day and use it against the topic. And ultimately, people have proved that pre-meter... People were jerks about the same thing in other ways.

> >

> > So (I may be stretching a bit here) there's still no valid argument presented as to why they should be banned. Although I think not discouraging a community to download a network sniffer is a poor response to the current situation. (Again, no offense deltaconnected, I think what you've done is awesome. I'm just not going to use it.)

>

> I would say that players encountering other players that abuse the information IS about as valid an argument as you can get for not having DPS meters. This is fundamentally a service that provides entertainment to players. If there was a feature in it that allowed players to abuse others, I would seriously question the purpose of that feature in an entertainment service, unless the players were knowingly using that service to be abused for their own entertainment.

>

 

While the core of you're argument might seem correct this line of thinking is way to much in absolutes.

 

Achievement points can be used to abuse other players, and they do get used for this from time to time.

 

The amount of AR that shows during fractals also can be used to kick people.

 

Do you think these 2 things are fine?

 

> Even if that's debatable to you, it's simply untrue that the only way to monitor and improve your performance is through a DPS meter ... It's not even the best way of all the available methods. If you break it down to what you are trying to do, DPS meters do not collect data, they simply show you a real time snapshot. That's not going to allow anyone to scientifically evaluate their performance.

 

It appears you don't really know what dps meters can do.