Personal DPS and other self-tracking

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> Though nobody has bothered to ask me about it, I actually have mixed feelings on DPS meters.

 

I did. When I made the thread. That's why you're here. To give your two cents. No ones asking because it's understood that this is how a forum works.

 

You may have missed it, ill post it here. Your comment "There are meters in the game already" - can you elaborate?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I might have to bow out soon. Starting to feel real sick.

 

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > So then it is the combination of a guide + practice that improves you.

> > >

> > > Tell me, how do you know that you are performing the rotation well? And don't answer because you do the rotation well on the static golem, that doesn't count.

> >

> > You can tell when the enemies die faster, the rotation feels smoother and flows more easily, you see it canceled and interrupted less, when you personally stall and reposition less, when the numbers appear higher and faster, and you spend less time avoiding being hit by enemy attacks.

>

> Yeah but you have "feelings" as proof... And now that you improved, can you improve anymore? And how would you tell if the difference would be small?

>

> How can you say that something that measures what's you've done in a concrete, non-feelings based way, doesn't help anyone?

>

> What does "help" even mean for you in this context?

 

When I say help, I mean it in one of two ways. First, providing new methodology which guides a person to previously unknown ideas and methods. Second, increasing the rate, precision, and frequency in which the task is accomplished. When I say that meters don't improve the player, it is because they don't really do either of these things. Fumble fingers will remain all thumbs, and somebody who has no idea how to improve will continue lacking this knowledge. If you want to learn to raid, you do either one of to things. Either you join a teaching run where somebody tells you what to do (new methodology), and/or you grind at a boss until you can dodge all the attacks and have learned all of the reflexes (rate, precision, frequency).

 

Measuring incremental DPS increases is nice and all, but there's only so much value in them. Once you get up there, the difference between 32k and 33k isn't much. Getting to that point on a boss requires practicing rotations so much, and practicing on that boss so much, and developing team strategies on that boss before-hand. While it is nice to know who's doing good DPS and exactly how much it has improved over previous runs, that improvement is largely a product of factors outside of the meter. Better practice, better cooperation, better understanding.

 

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> >

> > Meters are everywhere in the game. Accept it.

>

> Wait a minute... What?

 

They are. People will bring them everywhere. It is just that in the overworld you can't control who's around, and in old-school dungeons are so ill-populated that dungeoneers will take whatever they get. It's only in fractals and raids that you'll see full on meter worship.

 

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"FrostDraco.8306" said:

> > > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > >

> > > > Meters are everywhere in the game. Accept it.

> > >

> > > Wait a minute... What?

> >

> > He's cracking. The more he tries to sound smart, the dumber he looks.

>

> Most of the conversation has spiraled, I too had a bit of this with obtena, I hope we don't find a locked thread soon.

>

> This one line feels like we've all missed something here. And I think it lies in the definition of a "dps meter" which is ambiguous or needing defining depending on the community.

 

I've been here for... 10 hours now? Apparently everyone who has a problem with me keeps the same hours. I'm very tired now. Also, Frost is troll-arguing.

 

That said, I agree that a distinction between DPS meters is a good thing to make. I, for one, like the raid training golem and think it has done great things for the game. It counts as a DPS meter. But, the controversy everyone has is over DPS meters like ArcDPS, which take public information from teammates. Though most people are probably thinking of ArcDPS when we discuss meters, there has got to be a few people scratching their heads over why people hate the training golem so much.

 

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > Though nobody has bothered to ask me about it, I actually have mixed feelings on DPS meters.

>

> I did. When I made the thread. That's why you're here. To give your two cents. No ones asking because it's understood that this is how a forum works.

>

> You may have missed it, ill post it here. Your comment "There are meters in the game already" - can you elaborate?

 

I think the formal name is the Special Forces Training Area. Also known as the training golem or the raid golem. It's connected to the aerodrome. In this area, you can spawn a custom golem with a variety of adjustable features (size, armor, conditions, whether it runs around or stands still, etc), and you can also adjust your own stats how you like. You can give yourself boons, the profession specific buffs, and you can even reset your skills.

 

When fighting this golem, you will get regular updates in the chat box telling you your DPS. It is at every 20% of the golem's health. This is the total damage done, so if you want your personal DPS you'll have to fight it by yourself, but you can bring a group in with you if you want group DPS.

 

If you are referring to the previous comment I made when I said that meters were everywhere, that just means that there are people who have a third party DPS meter installed walking around in all places of the game.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> That said, I agree that a distinction between DPS meters is a good thing to make. I, for one, like the raid training golem and think it has done great things for the game. It counts as a DPS meter. But, the controversy everyone has is over DPS meters like ArcDPS, which take public information from teammates. Though most people are probably thinking of ArcDPS when we discuss meters, there has got to be a few people scratching their heads over why people hate the training golem so much.

 

ArcDPS provides way more data than the golem and at the same time it provides the data from actual fights. Meanwhile the golem is a static foe that doesn't include any mechanics at all. Someone performing well on a golem, even a perfect rotation, doesn't mean they can repeat that in actual combat. In that sense, ArcDPS provides everything the golem does for improvement, plus way more, while tailoring the data to the specific boss. I don't understand how someone can say that the golem is valuable for any form of training and improvement while ArcDPS which does what the golem does, plus way more, is not.

[Biff.5312]

The problem really is with players, not meters. However, I think the best solution is a built-in DPS meter that shows the player only his own data. This allows people a way to guage their improvement without giving bullies a tool to deny them the opportunity to improve.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> When fighting this golem, you will get regular updates in the chat box telling you your DPS. It is at every 20% of the golem's health. This is the total damage done, so if you want your personal DPS you'll have to fight it by yourself, but you can bring a group in with you if you want group DPS.

>

> If you are referring to the previous comment I made when I said that meters were everywhere, that just means that there are people who have a third party DPS meter installed walking around in all places of the game.

 

While that is by far the coolest, unique way of solving that problem that I've ever seen (and just heard of now).... It's not a lot of data. It's a very small portion of data and isn't close to what I mean with a DPS meter/performance tracker. But still, very cool. I would not accept this as what I'm personally looking for. Although it's a great start, and they could use that to expand. It also means that "in theory" everyone does great... But as soon as they are actually in a raid... Things will change, potentially drastically. So it's super niche in how it could be helpful.

 

My biggest issue with current meters is what they are. Closed-source, 3rd party software, with no official hook into the game. Some Anet employee said he "looked at the code"? I'd like a peek too. And I'd have to peek eeeevery time an update happened.

 

This means the software itself is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to a virus or malware that might be on your computer. I'm not ok with this, at all. It means that a developer just needs a reason to take more data than they need and send it to themselves. I don't think people understand the gravity of what they are installing.

 

This can sniff ALL network traffic. Including packets sent to your bank containing a password. Including private information. It means it has total control over you computer. If Anet had a lua-based scripting method, that could (for the most part) go away.

 

Edit: my confusion on "they're everywhere"... I'm not using one. I refuse to use a 3rd party application. So to me, there is none. (Including the golem meter, it's a data producing training dummy). If we're just talking DPS, I want timed totals, and percentages of all damage, each unique abilities damage, each unique abilities min, average, max and crit damage (and counts of each). And a history or fights labeled by who I engaged to I can compare one fight to another. THAT is a dps meter to me. At a minimum.

 

Edit2: I'm also assuming the damage on the golem doesn't carry over on respawn? You mentioned 20% or something? What about 5 minute sustained dps? Cause going from 100 to 20% is morw "burst" dps than sustained. I guess you could give him a million health or something.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> The problem really is with players, not meters. However, I think the best solution is a built-in DPS meter that shows the player only his own data. This allows people a way to guage their improvement without giving bullies a tool to deny them the opportunity to improve.

 

Your performance is directly tied to the performance of others, seeing only your own data isn't really enough, to the point that in many cases it's useless information.

[Biff.5312]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Biff.5312" said:

> > The problem really is with players, not meters. However, I think the best solution is a built-in DPS meter that shows the player only his own data. This allows people a way to guage their improvement without giving bullies a tool to deny them the opportunity to improve.

>

> Your performance is directly tied to the performance of others, seeing only your own data isn't really enough, to the point that in many cases it's useless information.

 

For benchmarks, there's publicly available information, so it's not like you'd be uninformed about what is considered good. The point of the personal info is to compare your own performance over time. Is it improving in the same encounters? Are you even in the neighbourhood of known benchmarks? That's good. Regardless of what other info you do or don't have, that's useful.

 

 

 

 

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>

> That's only a feeling. I might feel the rotation executes smoothly with no delays, but you can never be sure until something written tells you as such. Until then it's only a "feeling" of doing alright. Is it backed up by hard data or not? Having a feeling and knowing what to do is meaningless, if you cannot back that up in an actual situation. And the only way to back up and actually improve yourself is by having hard data, numbers.

>

> How do you know that you are performing the rotation well? has only one answer: by seeing you are performing well using actual data, not feelings.

>

> For some reason you cannot seem to understand this anyway so it's probably wasted words, but besides all that, if everyone could see what they are doing wrong, where their problem with execution is, we wouldn't need dps meters, or anything like them, because everyone would perform perfectly even the most complex rotations on the most complex boss fights. But the reality is, very few players are perfect like that and a dps meter is a perfect tool to bring the ego of some people like yourself down, those who mumble about how well they perform and "feel" like their rotation is natural without interrupts, yet they aren't always backed by data. Overconfidence can be a really bad thing.

 

As far as I can tell, the point that you're trying to make here is that if you don't have an exact measurement, it doesn't count, and are using this try and say that the exact measurement in real time is helping players do better DPS. The thing is... not really, no. You don't really need to know an exact number. All you need to know is what to do in order to do your best DPS, and then from your mistakes you can see if you need to do better. I mentioned before that, if realistic DPS caps out at 15k or 20k at peak play, then there's nothing you can do about it. It is nice to know what that number is, but far from necessary. If you do happen to know that number, then you're not going to suddenly improve. Your methods, your actions, they're going to stay the same, whether it caps at 15k or 20k, because that is all you can do.

 

The only real metric that matters is success or failure, and if failure is coming from a deficiency in your personal DPS, then you're going to see it coming from a mile away. You say that nobody is perfect, but then a DPS meter isn't going to suddenly make them perfect. You're going to make the same mistakes. If you can't see it coming from a mile away, then how did you get there in the first place?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Biff.5312" said:

> > > The problem really is with players, not meters. However, I think the best solution is a built-in DPS meter that shows the player only his own data. This allows people a way to guage their improvement without giving bullies a tool to deny them the opportunity to improve.

> >

> > Your performance is directly tied to the performance of others, seeing only your own data isn't really enough, to the point that in many cases it's useless information.

>

> For benchmarks, there's publicly available information, so it's not like you'd be uninformed about what is considered good. The point of the personal info is to compare your own performance over time. Is it improving in the same encounters? Are you even in the neighbourhood of known benchmarks? That's good. Regardless of what other info you do or don't have, that's useful.

 

I guess you are right if you are the only constant, for instance when you play alone (pugs), then your personal performance is all you can do anyway, because regardless of the information you get from others, they won't be the same on future runs, so it's pointless information. But that's never true if you are playing with a static team. How you alone perform over time is of much reduced value when you are part of fixed/static team, it's the whole team that matters, identifying where the "problems" are and fixing them.

 

The true value of the dps meter is when it gathers the data of all members, parse them and shows them to the team for further discussion and feedback. With the current setup one person has to do all that, gather all the information and present it to the rest of the team. If they added a built-in system that only tracked personal data, it would be a royal waste of time to combine the data after every run, plus any possible performance hits of using the meter in the first place for some people.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> All you need to know is what to do in order to do your best DPS

 

Knowing what to do in order to do your best DPS and actually doing it are two separate things. Which is what I've been trying to say since the first post. Plus rotations don't factor in boss mechanics. dps meters do, especially if you happen to be in a group with someone using the same build as you. There is a reason guides say "prioritize this and that" and not offer fixed skill usages for everything.

 

> You say that nobody is perfect, but then a DPS meter isn't going to suddenly make them perfect. You're going to make the same mistakes.

 

There is the very high possibility of not knowing those mistakes in the first place. Using the meter can indeed allow you not to make the same mistakes because this time, you will identify said mistakes and know how to fix them. I know it's a hard concept for you to accept, but it does happen in reality. It's that Thief that claims they know the rotation and the mechanics of the fight, and yet they fail to even flank a target most of the time. It does happen in real situations and most of the time they don't even know they are doing it wrong because they "feel" their rotation is smooth/perfect so they think everything is fine. Until they check the logs and see that their feelings were very far from reality. That's where the dps meter shines, it clearly shows you your mistakes so you don't repeat them next time. No guide reading can show you this.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > That said, I agree that a distinction between DPS meters is a good thing to make. I, for one, like the raid training golem and think it has done great things for the game. It counts as a DPS meter. But, the controversy everyone has is over DPS meters like ArcDPS, which take public information from teammates. Though most people are probably thinking of ArcDPS when we discuss meters, there has got to be a few people scratching their heads over why people hate the training golem so much.

>

> ArcDPS provides way more data than the golem and at the same time it provides the data from actual fights. Meanwhile the golem is a static foe that doesn't include any mechanics at all. Someone performing well on a golem, even a perfect rotation, doesn't mean they can repeat that in actual combat. In that sense, ArcDPS provides everything the golem does for improvement, plus way more, while tailoring the data to the specific boss. I don't understand how someone can say that the golem is valuable for any form of training and improvement while ArcDPS which does what the golem does, plus way more, is not.

 

There is advantages to the static golem. Being a sterile environment means that someone is free to experiment, to spend as many hours as they want training, with no pressure from the outside. That training golem is a high-tech punching bag. Learning to do good DPS in the middle of a fractal or raid is like learning how to fight via being thrown in to a street melee. There's a lot of pressure, people are depending on you, there's a whole lot that can go wrong, and there's so much you need to watch aside from your own skills. The whole time, you'd be there, thinking "If only I had perfected my technique on my own time. If only I had a battle strategy hammered out before I got into this fight." Learning to do good DPS with Vale Guardian staring you down is a whole lot harder than learning good DPS in a safe environment, then translating all of that training and experience into the rest of the game.

 

Because of this, I'd say that the golem accomplished far more than ArcDPS ever did for this game.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > That said, I agree that a distinction between DPS meters is a good thing to make. I, for one, like the raid training golem and think it has done great things for the game. It counts as a DPS meter. But, the controversy everyone has is over DPS meters like ArcDPS, which take public information from teammates. Though most people are probably thinking of ArcDPS when we discuss meters, there has got to be a few people scratching their heads over why people hate the training golem so much.

> >

> > ArcDPS provides way more data than the golem and at the same time it provides the data from actual fights. Meanwhile the golem is a static foe that doesn't include any mechanics at all. Someone performing well on a golem, even a perfect rotation, doesn't mean they can repeat that in actual combat. In that sense, ArcDPS provides everything the golem does for improvement, plus way more, while tailoring the data to the specific boss. I don't understand how someone can say that the golem is valuable for any form of training and improvement while ArcDPS which does what the golem does, plus way more, is not.

>

> There is advantages to the static golem. Being a sterile environment means that someone is free to experiment, to spend as many hours as they want training, with no pressure from the outside. That training golem is a high-tech punching bag. Learning to do good DPS in the middle of a fractal or raid is like learning how to fight via being thrown in to a street melee. There's a lot of pressure, people are depending on you, there's a whole lot that can go wrong, and there's so much you need to watch aside from your own skills. The whole time, you'd be there, thinking "If only I had perfected my technique on my own time. If only I had a battle strategy hammered out before I got into this fight." Learning to do good DPS with Vale Guardian staring you down is a whole lot harder than learning good DPS in a safe environment, then translating all of that training and experience into the rest of the game.

>

> Because of this, I'd say that the golem accomplished far more than ArcDPS ever did for this game.

 

The disadavantage? All it's good for is sterile, straight DPS. You're now not including a massive set of things that also affect DPS... Especially for what it outputs... It doesn't even compare to Arc, or really an improved DPS tracker. Like I described.

 

So yeah, it's helpful... Does more for the game than Arc? I don't think so. Does more for people looking to be the best-of-the-best? Not even close.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

>

> While that is by far the coolest, unique way of solving that problem that I've ever seen (and just heard of now).... It's not a lot of data. It's a very small portion of data and isn't close to what I mean with a DPS meter/performance tracker. But still, very cool. I would not accept this as what I'm personally looking for. Although it's a great start, and they could use that to expand. It also means that "in theory" everyone does great... But as soon as they are actually in a raid... Things will change, potentially drastically. So it's super niche in how it could be helpful.

>

> My biggest issue with current meters is what they are. Closed-source, 3rd party software, with no official hook into the game. Some Anet employee said he "looked at the code"? I'd like a peek too. And I'd have to peek eeeevery time an update happened.

>

> This means the software itself is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to a virus or malware that might be on your computer. I'm not ok with this, at all. It means that a developer just needs a reason to take more data than they need and send it to themselves. I don't think people understand the gravity of what they are installing.

>

> This can sniff ALL network traffic. Including packets sent to your bank containing a password. Including private information. It means it has total control over you computer. If Anet had a lua-based scripting method, that could (for the most part) go away.

>

> Edit: my confusion on "they're everywhere"... I'm not using one. I refuse to use a 3rd party application. So to me, there is none. (Including the golem meter, it's a data producing training dummy). If we're just talking DPS, I want timed totals, and percentages of all damage, each unique abilities damage, each unique abilities min, average, max and crit damage (and counts of each). And a history or fights labeled by who I engaged to I can compare one fight to another. THAT is a dps meter to me. At a minimum.

>

> Edit2: I'm also assuming the damage on the golem doesn't carry over on respawn? You mentioned 20% or something? What about 5 minute sustained dps? Cause going from 100 to 20% is morw "burst" dps than sustained. I guess you could give him a million health or something.

 

The golem has an adjustable health pool. The current settings are 1 million, 4 million, and 10 million. When players do DPS tests, it is usually on the 4 million golem. The reason being that the golem is healthy enough to get a good average, but doesn't take way too long to kill. If you want a 5 minute spread, you'll have to use the 10 million golem. Most classes can do around 30k DPS, which comes to 5 and a half minutes to kill. At every 20% increment (80%, 60%, 40%, 20%, 0%) it tells you your DPS.

 

The damage doesn't carry over. The golem only spawns when you interact with a little machine.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> >

> > While that is by far the coolest, unique way of solving that problem that I've ever seen (and just heard of now).... It's not a lot of data. It's a very small portion of data and isn't close to what I mean with a DPS meter/performance tracker. But still, very cool. I would not accept this as what I'm personally looking for. Although it's a great start, and they could use that to expand. It also means that "in theory" everyone does great... But as soon as they are actually in a raid... Things will change, potentially drastically. So it's super niche in how it could be helpful.

> >

> > My biggest issue with current meters is what they are. Closed-source, 3rd party software, with no official hook into the game. Some Anet employee said he "looked at the code"? I'd like a peek too. And I'd have to peek eeeevery time an update happened.

> >

> > This means the software itself is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to a virus or malware that might be on your computer. I'm not ok with this, at all. It means that a developer just needs a reason to take more data than they need and send it to themselves. I don't think people understand the gravity of what they are installing.

> >

> > This can sniff ALL network traffic. Including packets sent to your bank containing a password. Including private information. It means it has total control over you computer. If Anet had a lua-based scripting method, that could (for the most part) go away.

> >

> > Edit: my confusion on "they're everywhere"... I'm not using one. I refuse to use a 3rd party application. So to me, there is none. (Including the golem meter, it's a data producing training dummy). If we're just talking DPS, I want timed totals, and percentages of all damage, each unique abilities damage, each unique abilities min, average, max and crit damage (and counts of each). And a history or fights labeled by who I engaged to I can compare one fight to another. THAT is a dps meter to me. At a minimum.

> >

> > Edit2: I'm also assuming the damage on the golem doesn't carry over on respawn? You mentioned 20% or something? What about 5 minute sustained dps? Cause going from 100 to 20% is morw "burst" dps than sustained. I guess you could give him a million health or something.

>

> The golem has an adjustable health pool. The current settings are 1 million, 4 million, and 10 million. When players do DPS tests, it is usually on the 4 million golem. The reason being that the golem is healthy enough to get a good average, but doesn't take way too long to kill. If you want a 5 minute spread, you'll have to use the 10 million golem. Most classes can do around 30k DPS, which comes to 5 and a half minutes to kill. At every 20% increment (80%, 60%, 40%, 20%, 0%) it tells you your DPS.

>

> The damage doesn't carry over. The golem only spawns when you interact with a little machine.

 

So that's all you address... The golem? No credibility to the rest of it?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> There is advantages to the static golem.

 

And there is disadvantages too: it's practically worthless as a dps measuring tool for the actual fights. It's only good for one thing: finding the rotation build that does the top dps, but that on its own is a useless metric too because not all builds are equally good on all fights. Take a build like Power Sword Fresh Air Weaver which is second on the dps benchmark, yet it's a worthless build on many bosses, don't even try using it on Matthias for example. That's what you get from the golem, the potential dps of a build, which is good for theorycrafters and those that are making the builds and guides, but really not as useful for the players.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> The disadavantage? All it's good for is sterile, straight DPS. You're now not including a massive set of things that also affect DPS... Especially for what it outputs... It doesn't even compare to Arc, or really an improved DPS tracker. Like I described.

>

> So yeah, it's helpful... Does more for the game than Arc? I don't think so. Does more for people looking to be the best-of-the-best? Not even close.

 

There's to ways to look at this. The first way, what is the most accurate method to measure DPS. The second way, what is the best way to teach people how to do good DPS. If I didn't get to learn or practice my DPS on the golem before I get dropped into a raid, then all Arc would record is my panicked flailing and death. Arc would record this information very accurately, but what good would it do? "You did 2k DPS before dying abruptly to an enemy you don't understand."

 

I would have a really hard time figuring out how to do the best DPS while being beaten down by the raid boss. First I would have to learn to avoid the first attacks and survive until the first phasing mechanic. Then I'd have to learn that mechanic. Then I'd have to figure out all of the DPS tricks, because that phasing mechanic likely has some little DPS test in it. Something like Gorseval's ghosts or Sabetha's cannons. It would be very hard to figure out what skills I should do in what order, because I'd spend most of my time running from AoEs, or running to AoEs.

 

But with that training golem, I've solved half of the raid already. I will know how to sustain good DPS. I will know how to burst. Sure there are raid mechanics, but I already know what is good DPS, so it will be easy to change my skills and still have O.K. DPS.

 

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

>

> So that's all you address... The golem? No credibility to the rest of it?

 

I'm not sure what you're asking here. I can only type so fast, so excuse me if my responses are delayed.

 

Anyway, I'm going to have to call it here. While writing this post, my power went out several times and my breakers did something... weird. I have matters I must attend to. You guys should all know what I mean by now.

[deltaconnected.4058]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> My biggest issue with current meters is what they are. Closed-source, 3rd party software, with no official hook into the game. Some Anet employee said he "looked at the code"? I'd like a peek too. And I'd have to peek eeeevery time an update happened.

>

> This means the software itself is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to a virus or malware that might be on your computer. I'm not ok with this, at all. It means that a developer just needs a reason to take more data than they need and send it to themselves. I don't think people understand the gravity of what they are installing.

>

> This can sniff ALL network traffic. Including packets sent to your bank containing a password. Including private information. It means it has total control over you computer. If Anet had a lua-based scripting method, that could (for the most part) go away.

 

I've copy/pasted segments for "how it works" reasons for people, but no one besides myself has and for the foreseeable future will ever see the source in it's entirety. You're probably assuming something someone said on the internet happened. But just out of curiosity - and I'm going to assume you are running a nix flavour because there are no Windows sources available - do you happen to line-by-line review the source of everything from the kernel to the drivers to the usermode applications in addition to compiling them yourself (having also reviewed the source and compiled the compiler) before running? Or do you inherently trust that someone already reviewed the source and that the server that hosts the installer to the browser that you used to type this post and probably actually use to log in to your bank account was not compromised/intentionally modified?

 

I think you also need to do a bit of research before putting out your own interpretations as fact - "reading from network" does not mean I can somehow exploit myself to run-as-administrator and install a filter driver (not mentioning driver signing) that will snoop on any network communication that goes over the Window's network stack (eg. wireshark). Otherwise you would know that I'm limited to "see" what the gw2.exe process "sees", and if your bank is sending plaintext passwords then anyone who has access to any node on the route that handles this data can also see your password, no meter needed. Luckily those kinds of banks have hopefully all gone out of business so without being able to get at the data before it's encrypted by SSL (see: did you verify the source and distribution of the browser you installed) no, I cannot see anything and everything, nor do I have any more "control" over your computer than you gave the gw2 process (which is also closed source). I also hope that you categorize applications like media players as viruses and malware too because they can peek into every key you press on your keyboard + which window that message is sent to so they can tell when you press the global media start/pause/stop buttons on your keyboard. Or maybe just look a bit into what malware actually is. This is a thread about dps meters though so I won't get into that.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"deltaconnected.4058" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > My biggest issue with current meters is what they are. Closed-source, 3rd party software, with no official hook into the game. Some Anet employee said he "looked at the code"? I'd like a peek too. And I'd have to peek eeeevery time an update happened.

> >

> > This means the software itself is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to a virus or malware that might be on your computer. I'm not ok with this, at all. It means that a developer just needs a reason to take more data than they need and send it to themselves. I don't think people understand the gravity of what they are installing.

> >

> > This can sniff ALL network traffic. Including packets sent to your bank containing a password. Including private information. It means it has total control over you computer. If Anet had a lua-based scripting method, that could (for the most part) go away.

>

> I've copy/pasted segments for "how it works" reasons for people, but no one besides myself has and for the foreseeable future will ever see the source in it's entirety. You're probably assuming something someone said on the internet happened. But just out of curiosity - and I'm going to assume you are running a nix flavour because there are no Windows sources available - do you happen to line-by-line review the source of everything from the kernel to the drivers to the usermode applications in addition to compiling them yourself (having also reviewed the source and compiled the compiler) before running? Or do you inherently trust that someone already reviewed the source and that the server that hosts the installer to the browser that you used to type this post and probably actually use to log in to your bank account was not compromised/intentionally modified?

>

> I think you also need to do a bit of research before putting out your own interpretations as fact - "reading from network" does not mean I can somehow exploit myself to run-as-administrator and install a filter driver (not mentioning driver signing) that will snoop on any network communication that goes over the Window's network stack (eg. wireshark). Otherwise you would know that I'm limited to "see" what the gw2.exe process "sees", and if your bank is sending plaintext passwords then anyone who has access to any node on the route that handles this data can also see your password, no meter needed. Luckily those kinds of banks have hopefully all gone out of business so without being able to get at the data before it's encrypted by SSL (see: did you verify the source and distribution of the browser you installed) no, I cannot see anything and everything, nor do I have any more "control" over your computer than you gave the gw2 process (which is also closed source). I also hope that you categorize applications like media players as viruses and malware too because they can peek into every key you press on your keyboard + which window that message is sent to so they can tell when you press the global media start/pause/stop buttons on your keyboard. Or maybe just look a bit into what malware actually is. This is a thread about dps meters though so I won't get into that.

 

Sure, I mean we're getting a bit off topic. So with the intention of staying on topic (for the most part).

 

The reality is current meters are 3rd party. That means the user is leaving it up to you, and individual developer, to handle things. Not a company, team of experts, or someone who can be held far more legally responsible that yourself. In a certain sense at least.

 

Maybe not your (edit: originally said "program") software, but other DPS meters actually ask you to run their program as Admin. So kudos to you, but you're not the only one out there.

 

Again, YOUR software is different, I don't believe there is an executable, just librariea. Other meters are executables running in the background. These would have access as you mentioned. When someone goes to install wireshark, there isn't a separate process where "Are you sure this is safe?" And then "this program is trying to install filters, are you still sure?" It's one prompt. So something like GW2Helper... That's pretty sketchy.

 

I'm sorry if I've implied that Arc is a big culprit, as it's not. But it's not the only one out there being advertised. An the others are far more concerning.

 

The bank stuff etc... I mean sure, there's multiple layers here. But let's not pretend that every one in cyber security is doing literal full stack analysis. Kernel security, OS Security, Software Security, Internet Security, network..... We're focusing on one bit here. And we're specifically talking about installing software from an indie vs a corporation or something baked into Anet.

 

 

Edit: I'm a programmer as well, I focus on embedded. I'm not pretending here, I'm laying out the current state. Honestly yours seems to be the best in regards to this stuff. My plea is to have better support, not injection of someone's dll files. Like Lua scripting in WoW, far better approach for everyone involved.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"deltaconnected.4058" said:

> > > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > My biggest issue with current meters is what they are. Closed-source, 3rd party software, with no official hook into the game. Some Anet employee said he "looked at the code"? I'd like a peek too. And I'd have to peek eeeevery time an update happened.

> > >

> > > This means the software itself is EXTREMELY SIMILAR to a virus or malware that might be on your computer. I'm not ok with this, at all. It means that a developer just needs a reason to take more data than they need and send it to themselves. I don't think people understand the gravity of what they are installing.

> > >

> > > This can sniff ALL network traffic. Including packets sent to your bank containing a password. Including private information. It means it has total control over you computer. If Anet had a lua-based scripting method, that could (for the most part) go away.

> >

> > I've copy/pasted segments for "how it works" reasons for people, but no one besides myself has and for the foreseeable future will ever see the source in it's entirety. You're probably assuming something someone said on the internet happened. But just out of curiosity - and I'm going to assume you are running a nix flavour because there are no Windows sources available - do you happen to line-by-line review the source of everything from the kernel to the drivers to the usermode applications in addition to compiling them yourself (having also reviewed the source and compiled the compiler) before running? Or do you inherently trust that someone already reviewed the source and that the server that hosts the installer to the browser that you used to type this post and probably actually use to log in to your bank account was not compromised/intentionally modified?

> >

> > I think you also need to do a bit of research before putting out your own interpretations as fact - "reading from network" does not mean I can somehow exploit myself to run-as-administrator and install a filter driver (not mentioning driver signing) that will snoop on any network communication that goes over the Window's network stack (eg. wireshark). Otherwise you would know that I'm limited to "see" what the gw2.exe process "sees", and if your bank is sending plaintext passwords then anyone who has access to any node on the route that handles this data can also see your password, no meter needed. Luckily those kinds of banks have hopefully all gone out of business so without being able to get at the data before it's encrypted by SSL (see: did you verify the source and distribution of the browser you installed) no, I cannot see anything and everything, nor do I have any more "control" over your computer than you gave the gw2 process (which is also closed source). I also hope that you categorize applications like media players as viruses and malware too because they can peek into every key you press on your keyboard + which window that message is sent to so they can tell when you press the global media start/pause/stop buttons on your keyboard. Or maybe just look a bit into what malware actually is. This is a thread about dps meters though so I won't get into that.

>

> Sure, I mean we're getting a bit off topic. So with the intention of staying on topic (for the most part).

>

> The reality is current meters are 3rd party. That means the user is leaving it up to you, and individual developer, to handle things. Not a company, team of experts, or someone who can be held far more legally responsible that yourself. In a certain sense at least.

>

> Maybe not your (edit) software, but other DPS meters actually ask you to run their program as Admin. So kudos to you, but you're not the only one out there.

>

> Again, YOUR software is different, I don't believe there is an executable, just librariea. Other meters are executables running in the background. These would have access as you mentioned. When someone goes to install wireshark, there isn't a separate process where "Are you sure this is safe?" And then "this program is trying to install filters, are you still sure?" It's one prompt. So something like GW2Helper... That's pretty sketchy.

>

> I'm sorry if I've implied that Arc is a big culprit, as it's not. But it's not the only one out there being advertised. An the others are far more concerning.

>

> The bank stuff etc... I mean sure, there's multiple layers here. But let's not pretend that every one in cyber security is doing literal full stack analysis. Kernel security, OS Security, Software Security, Internet Security, network..... We're focusing on one bit here. And we're specifically talking about installing software from an indie vs a corporation or something baked into Anet.

>

>

> Edit: I'm a programmer as well, I focus on embedded. I'm not pretending here, I'm laying out the current state. Honestly yours seems to be the best in regards to this stuff. My plea is to have better support, not injection of someone's dll files.

 

Furthermore, are you claiming there's no way for a dll to be harmful?

[deltaconnected.4058]

Assembly is assembly whether it's loaded from an exe or dll or your own custom format or downloaded from the internet into an executable block of memory. Can't assume that just because it's a dll that it will "die" when the program(s) that loaded it die either - there's nothing stopping me from spawning a child process, even if that child process is rundll.exe -function on my own dll, which (as far as I know) are not killed when the parent is. At which point I can do whatever Windows lets me. Copy myself to the autorun folder, open a network connection and setwindowshookex keystrokes and clicks out over it, encrypt files I have access to for ransom, everything and anything that "malware" is. My point was that whether you trust the developer or not, by downloading any executable code from from the internet you are also trusting everything from who compiled it to who owns the server you downloaded it from

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> The tool doesn't improve you directly no, but it helps you identify the issues so you know WHAT to improve as well as it tells a group WHO needs to improve. Those are two very important elements in improvement.

> You can only actively improve something when you know it's you and you know what you need to do better. Other, more experienced players or guides, can then help with the HOW.

 

Wait hold on ... no it doesn't. The number the DPS meter shows you in NO WAY, tells you what to improve or who needs improvement. You can't look at a person doing 30K DPS and conclude they aren't at the top of there game because you don't know enough about what the peak performance is and what they are playing to conclude that by simply evaluating numbers from a meter.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"deltaconnected.4058" said:

> Assembly is assembly whether it's loaded from an exe or dll or your own custom format or downloaded from the internet into an executable block of memory. Can't assume that just because it's a dll that it will "die" when the program(s) that loaded it die either - there's nothing stopping me from spawning a child process, even if that child process is rundll.exe -function on my own dll, which (as far as I know) are not killed when the parent is. At which point I can do whatever Windows lets me. Copy myself to the autorun folder, open a network connection and setwindowshookex keystrokes and clicks out over it, encrypt files I have access to for ransom, everything and anything that "malware" is. My point was that whether you trust the developer or not, by downloading any executable code from from the internet you are also trusting everything from who compiled it to who owns the server you downloaded it from

 

I'm really greateful you pointed this out. Your server could be compromised, we don't know how you compiled it, I don't know what's in the code... I don't know these things. Most of those don't matter very much in a risk assessment.

 

What matters more to me is that Anet is a company that could be held responsible. They're listed, regulated, and stand to make money if they aren't doing shady stuff. Still a risk.

 

You, are an individual developing something for free and stand little to lose if you are selling data. Youre not a listed business. Suing you would be much harder than suing Anet. It's not a matter of opinion, it's just a risk assessment.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > I don't care.

> > Yes this seems to be your general attitude to anything that doesn't fit your personal narrative.

> > >It still isn't improving you.

> > The tool doesn't improve you directly no, but it helps you identify the issues so you know WHAT to improve as well as it tells a group WHO needs to improve. Those are two very important elements in improvement.

> > You can only actively improve something when you know it's you and you know what you need to do better. Other, more experienced players or guides, can then help with the HOW.

> >

> > Essentially there are three main elements here to enable improvement. WHO, WHAT and HOW? Parsers help you with the WHO and WHAT. Then the player can get help from other players, video's, guides etc. for the HOW. And then there is the last part which is about the players ability to learn and execute. That is something that no one can do for you. Some people know their limits, some don't.

> >

>

> Wait hold on ... no it doesn't. The number the DPS meter shows you in NO WAY, tells you what to improve or who needs improvement. You can't look at a person doing 30K DPS and conclude they aren't at the top of there game ... that's a severely insufficient amount of information to make that conclusion.

 

He stated "The tool doesn't improve you directly no", let's stop beating a dead horse.

 

It doesn't say "do this instead of this". It says "last time you did 15k, this time you did 20k."

 

Then you ask yourself "what changed?". Then try something else. "What changed?"... Etc.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > I don't care.

> > > Yes this seems to be your general attitude to anything that doesn't fit your personal narrative.

> > > >It still isn't improving you.

> > > The tool doesn't improve you directly no, but it helps you identify the issues so you know WHAT to improve as well as it tells a group WHO needs to improve. Those are two very important elements in improvement.

> > > You can only actively improve something when you know it's you and you know what you need to do better. Other, more experienced players or guides, can then help with the HOW.

> > >

> > > Essentially there are three main elements here to enable improvement. WHO, WHAT and HOW? Parsers help you with the WHO and WHAT. Then the player can get help from other players, video's, guides etc. for the HOW. And then there is the last part which is about the players ability to learn and execute. That is something that no one can do for you. Some people know their limits, some don't.

> > >

> >

> > Wait hold on ... no it doesn't. The number the DPS meter shows you in NO WAY, tells you what to improve or who needs improvement. You can't look at a person doing 30K DPS and conclude they aren't at the top of there game ... that's a severely insufficient amount of information to make that conclusion.

>

> He stated "The tool doesn't improve you directly no", let's stop beating a dead horse.

>

> It doesn't say "do this instead of this". It says "last time you did 15k, this time you did 20k."

>

> Then you ask yourself "what changed?". Then try something else. "What changed?"... Etc.

 

And that doesn't tell you if you need improvement. it just lets you fail around in amateur experiment land and come to inaccurate conclusions about what optimal play is. The fact is that these are not controlled experiments, so using this to arrive at a conclusion that what you are doing is your best play is faulty.

 

At best you get the in some range of the ballpark, but anyone fooling themselves with these 'experiments' simple doesn't understand how they interact with the game. That's probably a significant tell as to why we have a Golem we can setup to test our DPS ... at least that's a controlled environment.

 

What's funny here is that you're advocating the use of a DPS meter to test scenarios to conclude what your best play is in the real time raiding environment .... and just what kind of team are you going to do that in? The problem is that this theorycrafting for what 'improvements' you can make is already done outside the real raiding environment, so anyone selling DPS meters as the way to test your builds is not being accurate with how they intend to use them. You're play is so much more dependent with how you interact with the game and the people in your team that it's almost nonsensical to think a DPS meter could ever give you accurate information about how to play better.

[deadpool.7036]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"deadpool.7036" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Gehenna.3625" said:

> > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > > > > I don't care.

> > > > Yes this seems to be your general attitude to anything that doesn't fit your personal narrative.

> > > > >It still isn't improving you.

> > > > The tool doesn't improve you directly no, but it helps you identify the issues so you know WHAT to improve as well as it tells a group WHO needs to improve. Those are two very important elements in improvement.

> > > > You can only actively improve something when you know it's you and you know what you need to do better. Other, more experienced players or guides, can then help with the HOW.

> > > >

> > > > Essentially there are three main elements here to enable improvement. WHO, WHAT and HOW? Parsers help you with the WHO and WHAT. Then the player can get help from other players, video's, guides etc. for the HOW. And then there is the last part which is about the players ability to learn and execute. That is something that no one can do for you. Some people know their limits, some don't.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Wait hold on ... no it doesn't. The number the DPS meter shows you in NO WAY, tells you what to improve or who needs improvement. You can't look at a person doing 30K DPS and conclude they aren't at the top of there game ... that's a severely insufficient amount of information to make that conclusion.

> >

> > He stated "The tool doesn't improve you directly no", let's stop beating a dead horse.

> >

> > It doesn't say "do this instead of this". It says "last time you did 15k, this time you did 20k."

> >

> > Then you ask yourself "what changed?". Then try something else. "What changed?"... Etc.

>

> And that doesn't tell you if you need improvement. it just lets you fail around in amateur experiment land and come to inaccurate conclusions about what optimal play is. The fact is that these are not controlled experiments, so using this to arrive at a conclusion that what you are doing is your best play is faulty.

>

> At best you get the in some range of the ballpark, but anyone fooling themselves with these 'experiments' simple doesn't understand how they interact with the game.

 

We're just running in circles.

 

You're getting really hung up on all the other pieces that matter for great gameplay as if we're ignoring them. We're not. We're only talking about good tools for monitoring and tracking the basics of combat numbers. Everything else is a different topic entirely.

 

Everything else is experience, creativity, and practice.