Guardians, blocks and unblockables.

[Doomdesire.9365]

The class HP pool is outdated. It made sense when elite specs didn't exist, but that's simply no longer the case. Elite specs can play very differently from one another and their HP pools should be adjusted based on elite spec rather than a class wide blanket amount. It would give devs a very strong tool when it comes to balancing each different elite spec without compromising other builds. DH can use an HP boost to like 15K, but FB/Core don't really need it in pvp.

[Fashion Mage.3712]

Why are we pretending guardians aren't viable right now?

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Fashion Mage.3712" said:

> Why are we pretending guardians aren't viable right now?

 

We're not, FB is doing fine.

Its more about DH and Core and the class designs having trouble keeping up with all the unblockable skills released into the game since thier release.

[sephiroth.4217]

Hopefully anet can pitch a thought in?

[otto.5684]

> @"Fashion Mage.3712" said:

> Why are we pretending guardians aren't viable right now?

 

FB is surely meta in PvP. Core guardian is a okayish brusier build, but surely weaker than reaper and holo. Neither core or DH are good duliest or side nooders. Also, guardian as a whole has the worst mobility of any class. Even necro has better access to swiftness and out of combat mobility skills.

 

And to be clear, there is a huge difference between viable and meta. Why it is not possible for any build outside FB support to be meta?!

[Math.5123]

Vigor is something I'd love to see added to guardians somehow. Giving us more hard mitigation rather than toughness.

As it currently stands, conversion with CoP is the only access to vigor core guard has. (Without changing utilities)

 

Could add like 6-8 seconds of vigor onto f2 baseline for both core and DH. This way FB wont have even more boon spam.

[otto.5684]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Vigor is something I'd love to see added to guardians somehow. Giving us more hard mitigation rather than toughness.

> As it currently stands, conversion with CoP is the only access to vigor core guard has. (Without changing utilities)

>

> Could add like 6-8 seconds of vigor onto f2 baseline for both core and DH. This way FB wont have even more boon spam.

 

Core Guardian does have access to vigor. Honor line, minor adept, vigrous precesion, 5 sec vigor with 10 sec ICD. Minor grand master, purity of body, VoR increases endurance reg by 15%. Save yourselves also provides 10 sec vigor.

 

The issue is honor line is of no use for dps builds, and thus only used with FB. The only way you could see honor useful, shouts: receive the light, save yourselves and hold the line, require buff or rework. Abscent that, honor line will remain exclusive for support builds.

 

I do not think more sources need to be added for vigor, rather shouts need to be able to stand on their own without mediations, so honor could be played as an alternative to valor in PvP.

[Math.5123]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> > Vigor is something I'd love to see added to guardians somehow. Giving us more hard mitigation rather than toughness.

> > As it currently stands, conversion with CoP is the only access to vigor core guard has. (Without changing utilities)

> >

> > Could add like 6-8 seconds of vigor onto f2 baseline for both core and DH. This way FB wont have even more boon spam.

>

> Core Guardian does have access to vigor. Honor line, minor adept, vigrous precesion, 5 sec vigor with 10 sec ICD. Minor grand master, purity of body, VoR increases endurance reg by 15%. Save yourselves also provides 10 sec vigor.

>

> The issue is honor line is of no use for dps builds, and thus only used with FB. The only way you could see honor useful, shouts: receive the light, save yourselves and hold the line, require buff or rework. Abscent that, honor line will remain exclusive for support builds.

>

> I do not think more sources need to be added for vigor, rather shouts need to be able to stand on their own without mediations, so honor could be played as an alternative to valor in PvP.

 

This is exactly what I mean. Valor and radiance is needed for core guard dps and sustain, while honor is only really "good" for a duelist symbol guardian. If shouts were reworked to the point of being run, we could finally see a build without valor and this being able to run honor for vigor. But that just isn't a reality at this point.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> The time of being polite is over, you only need half a brain to see Guardians have been balanced around blocks, you corrected nothing. All you have done is argue semantics because you can't comprehend something that everybody else can.

>

> I honestly thought you were smarter than this but you proved me wrong, either that or you're being a troll.

>

 

ok mr. "only need half a brain to see Guardians being balanced aroudn blocks"

 

during stage of teh game you refer to WARRIOR who has much more HP than guardian COULD EASILLY OUTBLOCK GUARDIAN. YOU YOURSELF CLAIMED that guardians lower HP pool was "launch balance thing". so now please do me a favour and add 2+2 in here.

 

or in case that was too difficult to handle for your enlighted brain let me make it simpler:

 

"lower hp + some blocks"

vs

"higher hp + more blocks"

 

and you claiming first one being balanced compared to the second one by merit of having blocks.

 

so yes I did correct you because neither was guardian balanced during that time around concept of having blocks officially, nor it was in practice, because class it was compared on that aspect to was outdoing guard on both hp pool and block uptime. It's not semantics, not trolling, just you failing to consider you may have been wrong on your assumptions.

 

(and guardian started to consider outdoing warrior on block uptimes only after HoT release with dragonhunter)

 

as for comprehending somethign everyone else did - I was not only one in here to raise concern about "core guardian at launch" not really having all that much of blocks.

 

(as for actuall question asked after the assumption I was correcting, I have already said, that it is worthy for AN to investigate wether or not their core idea for guardian sustain is up to day with powercreeped oposition)

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > The time of being polite is over, you only need half a brain to see Guardians have been balanced around blocks, you corrected nothing. All you have done is argue semantics because you can't comprehend something that everybody else can.

> >

> > I honestly thought you were smarter than this but you proved me wrong, either that or you're being a troll.

> >

>

> ok mr. "only need half a brain to see Guardians being balanced aroudn blocks"

>

> during stage of teh game you refer to WARRIOR who has much more HP than guardian COULD EASILLY OUTBLOCK GUARDIAN. YOU YOURSELF CLAIMED that guardians lower HP pool was "launch balance thing". so now please do me a favour and add 2+2 in here.

>

> or in case that was too difficult to handle for your enlighted brain let me make it simpler:

>

> "lower hp + some blocks"

> vs

> "higher hp + more blocks"

>

> and you claiming first one being balanced compared to the second one by merit of having blocks.

>

> so yes I did correct you because neither was guardian balanced during that time around concept of having blocks officially, nor it was in practice, because class it was compared on that aspect to was outdoing guard on both hp pool and block uptime. It's not semantics, not trolling, just you failing to consider you may have been wrong on your assumptions.

>

> (and guardian started to consider outdoing warrior on block uptimes only after HoT release with dragonhunter)

>

> as for comprehending somethign everyone else did - I was not only one in here to raise concern about "core guardian at launch" not really having all that much of blocks.

>

> (as for actuall question asked after the assumption I was correcting, I have already said, that it is worthy for AN to investigate wether or not their core idea for guardian sustain is up to day with powercreeped oposition)

 

You didn't correct anything, you think you did, but you didn't.

Guess I was wrong about you being smarter than this.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> Like I said, I thought you were smarter than this.

 

anything to add except more bunch of ad hominems? I'd really like you to at least try to support your claim of guardians being "obviously designed around blocks" with something more than "it's obvious" and "only you don't seem to get it"

 

(I wanted to make it easier for you in here and give you numbers, but after writing it out I decided that nah, why should I do your work for you....)

 

as for other things in this thread in between - I really like that idea of inserting somewhere retaliation buff for guard, I was always big fan of this boon :)

 

> @"otto.5684" said:

> FB is surely meta in PvP. Core guardian is a okayish brusier build, but surely weaker than reaper and holo. Neither core or DH are good duliest or side nooders. Also, guardian as a whole has the worst mobility of any class. Even necro has better access to swiftness and out of combat mobility skills.

>

 

well yeah it seems like AN have decided that for mighty point of balance guards needs to be slow as crap :/ not sure why AN is so scared tho of concept of actually targetable teleports for guard - all teleports we have either require target lock on a foe, or require hitting ally with ground targeter. Would it really be so OP to have ground targeted teleport without friend or foe "anchoring" it?

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > Like I said, I thought you were smarter than this.

>

> anything to add except more bunch of ad hominems? I'd really like you to at least try to support your claim of guardians being "obviously designed around blocks" with something more than "it's obvious" and "only you don't seem to get it"

>

> (I wanted to make it easier for you in here and give you numbers, but after writing it out I decided that nah, why should I do your work for you....)

>

> as for other things in this thread in between - I really like that idea of inserting somewhere retaliation buff for guard, I was always big fan of this boon :)

>

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > FB is surely meta in PvP. Core guardian is a okayish brusier build, but surely weaker than reaper and holo. Neither core or DH are good duliest or side nooders. Also, guardian as a whole has the worst mobility of any class. Even necro has better access to swiftness and out of combat mobility skills.

> >

>

> well yeah it seems like AN have decided that for mighty point of balance guards needs to be slow as kitten :/ not sure why AN is so scared tho of concept of actually targetable teleports for guard - all teleports we have either require target lock on a foe, or require hitting ally with ground targeter. Would it really be so OP to have ground targeted teleport without friend or foe "anchoring" it?

 

I didn't even bother reading, you believe what ever you want.

Obviously it's super important to you.

Sorry if I sound rude but it gets a little old having someone constantly quote you going "I corrected you, no I corrected you, LISTEN TO ME, LISTEN TO ME, I CORRECTED YOU".. I already agreed with you that Resolve was probably part of the balancing but as I said, I had that included with "few heals" comment, I just didn't want to make a huge list involving pure of heart, resolve, medi traits and so on and was relying on some human intelligence to fill in the blanks and comprehend the conversation.

 

Can you do that or are you going to quote me with the same junk again?

 

[otto.5684]

> @"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > Like I said, I thought you were smarter than this.

>

> anything to add except more bunch of ad hominems? I'd really like you to at least try to support your claim of guardians being "obviously designed around blocks" with something more than "it's obvious" and "only you don't seem to get it"

>

> (I wanted to make it easier for you in here and give you numbers, but after writing it out I decided that nah, why should I do your work for you....)

>

> as for other things in this thread in between - I really like that idea of inserting somewhere retaliation buff for guard, I was always big fan of this boon :)

>

> > @"otto.5684" said:

> > FB is surely meta in PvP. Core guardian is a okayish brusier build, but surely weaker than reaper and holo. Neither core or DH are good duliest or side nooders. Also, guardian as a whole has the worst mobility of any class. Even necro has better access to swiftness and out of combat mobility skills.

> >

>

> well yeah it seems like AN have decided that for mighty point of balance guards needs to be slow as kitten :/ not sure why AN is so scared tho of concept of actually targetable teleports for guard - all teleports we have either require target lock on a foe, or require hitting ally with ground targeter. Would it really be so OP to have ground targeted teleport without friend or foe "anchoring" it?

 

I always thought that judge’s intervention should be a teleport to location instead of a target. It has 36 sec traited, might make it more useful...

 

I also think that putting the movement speed into DH, instead of minor in valor was misguided. Guardian is the only class that has to use a movement speed rune. Every single build has access to meta skills providing swiftness or 25% movement speed. Emphasis on meta. Cuz reterat surely is not. Regardless of Anet initial design intent, it makes no sense at all now.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> I always thought that judge’s intervention should be a teleport to location instead of a target. It has 36 sec traited, might make it more useful...

>

> I also think that putting the movement speed into DH, instead of minor in valor was misguided. Guardian is the only class that has to use a movement speed rune. Every single build has access to meta skills providing swiftness or 25% movement speed. Emphasis on meta. Cuz swiftness surely is not. Regardless of Anet initial design intent, it makes no sense at all now.

 

flashing blade er, akhem, sorry "symbol of blades" could also be simply ground targeted teleport, it's rather short range and would broaden it's niche in pvp-related modes

[Set.7461]

> @"coro.3176" said:

 

> For example:

> * Malicious Reprisal applying unblockable to revenant attacks (especially on Unrelenting Assault, where block is the preferred defense - it requires 2 dodges otherwise).

I want to clarify this point. Malicious Reprisal(and the buff from Phase Traversal) last 5 seconds but has 2 charges. This means only 2 of the 5 attacks from Unrelenting Assault will hit and I think that is much better than say "unlimited hit" unblockables like Unstoppable Union which is often chained with the 10-hit rapid fire.

 

Unfortunately, Unblockable attacks are like pandora's box. I don't see it going away anytime soon but toning down the long list of unblockable with "Charges" like Malicious Reprisal would be a start in the right direction. For example, limiting Unstoppable Union to 3 hits or so, means your block channel isn't going to complete waste.

 

[enkidu.5937]

At least, pls let blocks / reflects negate crit damage against unblockables.