kalla vs jalis?

[otto.5684]

> @Murdock.6547 said:

> It pains me to see how the rev forums are.

> Do any of you realize how much the new orders add?

> Or how much absurd damage some of the summons grant?

> Or how whacky it is to have 20% more condi damage?

>

> Kalla may not be optimal all the time as a legend, but her traitline is easily a must have for a dps build.

> Actually! Its good for power, for condi, and for healing even! Not great for power, but good.

 

It pains me that people do not understand is that every trait line and legend has advantages, not just Kalla. You are completely ignoring that SB and Renegade are seriously lacking in sustainability and mobility making Renegade near useless in PvP. You are not taking in consideration the damage and support advantages of using devastation in a group setting and herald solo.

 

Renegade is not misunderstood, it sucks compared to the alternatives, except in a raid where you can deal 5% more damage using mace/axe condi build over the same exact build without renegade.

[Ertrak.9506]

> @narcx.3570 said:

> > @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

> >

> > Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

> >

> > You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

> >

> > I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

> >

> > Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

>

> Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

>

> You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

>

 

Most dps is Condi so the AP doesn't really help all that much tbh. And the dps difference from devestation vs invocation is substantial (about 3k, which AP barely makes up for).

 

Don't underestimate how good rev dps actually is now, especially with the nerfs to firebrand.

 

Also the benchmarks for condi rev (37-38k) are done with kalla/mallyx. I've tried running jalis/ mallyx and kalla/ mallyx and it seems that kalla comes out on top every time due to torment procs from icerazor (rampent vex minor) and the burn damage from citadel bombardment

 

Edit: i didn't notice my typo. I meant to say you definitely want* to drop devestation, imo.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > @narcx.3570 said:

> > > @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > > So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

> > >

> > > Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

> > >

> > > You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

> > >

> > > I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

> > >

> > > Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

> >

> > Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

> >

> > You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

> >

>

> Most dps is Condi so the AP doesn't really help all that much tbh. And the dps difference from devestation vs invocation is substantial (about 3k, which AP barely makes up for).

>

> Don't underestimate how good rev dps actually is now, especially with the nerfs to firebrand.

>

> Also the benchmarks for condi rev (37-38k) are done with kalla/mallyx. I've tried running jalis/ mallyx and kalla/ mallyx and it seems that kalla comes out on top every time due to torment procs from icerazor (rampent vex minor) and the burn damage from citadel bombardment

>

> Edit: i didn't notice my typo. I meant to say you definitely want* to drop devestation, imo.

 

I asume you went with 1-1-1 for invocation and 2-2-2 for kalla? Is darkrazor or razorclaw used at all, or do you just do the rotation and working icerazor and bombard into it since you dont drain energy from not using soucleave? And sigils is still malice and geo?

 

Edit: I could like to know just how much mallyx/kalla is ahead of mallyx/jalis. Vengeful hammers is after all also very good at stacking torment with ease. Plus while icerazor might be more bursty about it, he still have a cd and when he fades or gets destroyed, your torment application drops down until you can recast him.. Then theres also the opportunity cost of having to place and watch spirits compared to the ease of turning on vengeful hammers.

 

Furthermore, with no direct energy draining, do you end staying in kalla stance for longer periods of time and neglecting use of mallyx and embrace the darkness?

[LucianDK.8615]

Might be good if you theorycrafters could start a new thread with all your info collected together.

[narcx.3570]

> @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > @narcx.3570 said:

> > > @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > > So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

> > >

> > > Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

> > >

> > > You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

> > >

> > > I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

> > >

> > > Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

> >

> > Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

> >

> > You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

> >

>

> Most dps is Condi so the AP doesn't really help all that much tbh. And the dps difference from devestation vs invocation is substantial (about 3k, which AP barely makes up for).

>

> Don't underestimate how good rev dps actually is now, especially with the nerfs to firebrand.

>

> Also the benchmarks for condi rev (37-38k) are done with kalla/mallyx. I've tried running jalis/ mallyx and kalla/ mallyx and it seems that kalla comes out on top every time due to torment procs from icerazor (rampent vex minor) and the burn damage from citadel bombardment

>

> Edit: i didn't notice my typo. I meant to say you definitely want* to drop devestation, imo.

 

Does Icerazor's attacks use our critical rate? Never really thought about that being an option...

Razorclaw/Icerazor/Bombardment, 2 searing fissures, and 1 echoing eruption would be a perfect 100 energy for your 10 seconds in Kalla tho. Very efficient.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I wouldn't be too psyched for Icerazor. Vengeful hammers strikes 4 times a second, and over 10 seconds this comes to 40 hits. These 40 hits scale with the number of enemies that surround you, so you can hit up to 120 times. At 0.2 base damage this is the equivalent of a base 80 base attack over 10 seconds. The hammers also heal 80 per hit, giving you 3,200 health for that duration. Against multiple enemies the healing multiplies. The hammers also reduce incoming damage from all sources by 20%. If you're in devastation, Focused Siphoning adds 2.6k additional damage on top of what the hammers already do, along with 2280 more health per enemy. This also works with Mutilate Defenses to stack additional vulnerability on enemies.

 

Icerazor is a base 3.2 attack which doesn't scale with the number of enemies you face and hits 20 times. About the only advantage is that it inflicts more vulnerability with no strings attached. Vengeful hammers is a _really good_ skill. It is hard to beat, no matter what build you're using.

[narcx.3570]

> @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> I wouldn't be too psyched for Icerazor. Vengeful hammers strikes 4 times a second, and over 10 seconds this comes to 40 hits. These 40 hits scale with the number of enemies that surround you, so you can hit up to 120 times. At 0.2 base damage this is the equivalent of a base 80 base attack over 10 seconds. The hammers also heal 80 per hit, giving you 3,200 health for that duration. Against multiple enemies the healing multiplies. The hammers also reduce incoming damage from all sources by 20%. If you're in devastation, Focused Siphoning adds 2.6k additional damage on top of what the hammers already do, along with 2280 more health per enemy. This also works with Mutilate Defenses to stack additional vulnerability on enemies.

>

> Icerazor is a base 3.2 attack which doesn't scale with the number of enemies you face and hits 20 times. About the only advantage is that it inflicts more vulnerability with no strings attached. Vengeful hammers is a _really good_ skill. It is hard to beat, no matter what build you're using.

 

Yes, but then you also generate 50 Bleeds from Razorclaw and 10-30 Burns (large hotbox rng) from Citadel Bombardment on top of the Torments from Icerazor (which would only be about 7 on average).

 

Jalis's 40 hits vs large hitbox would be around 13 stacks of torment on average.

 

Comparing hammers to one of those skills, sure they seem _really good_. But you have to compare them to the whole package, since hammers are ALL you get from Jalis, whereas in Kalla you have the energy to use all three skills... I mean, technically you could use Citadel Bombardment in Jalis form, but you'd have to almost immediately stop channeling your hammers. Although Jalis would let you use Searing Fissure 3 times instead of 2 and Echoing Eruption twice instead of once.

 

So in the end, we're comparing 13'ish stacks of torment, 4 extra burns, 5 extra torments and some direct damage/siphon hits to 7'ish stacks of torment, 15'ish burns, and 50 bleeds.

 

Like a said originally, in solo play, Jalis probably still is better, not even counting all the sustain you talked about... But in raids I don't think it's really that close at all, Kalla wins hands down.

[Zenith.7301]

> @narcx.3570 said:

> > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:

> > I wouldn't be too psyched for Icerazor. Vengeful hammers strikes 4 times a second, and over 10 seconds this comes to 40 hits. These 40 hits scale with the number of enemies that surround you, so you can hit up to 120 times. At 0.2 base damage this is the equivalent of a base 80 base attack over 10 seconds. The hammers also heal 80 per hit, giving you 3,200 health for that duration. Against multiple enemies the healing multiplies. The hammers also reduce incoming damage from all sources by 20%. If you're in devastation, Focused Siphoning adds 2.6k additional damage on top of what the hammers already do, along with 2280 more health per enemy. This also works with Mutilate Defenses to stack additional vulnerability on enemies.

> >

> > Icerazor is a base 3.2 attack which doesn't scale with the number of enemies you face and hits 20 times. About the only advantage is that it inflicts more vulnerability with no strings attached. Vengeful hammers is a _really good_ skill. It is hard to beat, no matter what build you're using.

>

> Yes, but then you also generate 50 Bleeds from Razorclaw and 10-30 Burns (large hotbox rng) from Citadel Bombardment on top of the Torments from Icerazor (which would only be about 7 on average).

>

> Jalis's 40 hits vs large hitbox would be around 13 stacks of torment on average.

>

> Comparing hammers to one of those skills, sure they seem _really good_. But you have to compare them to the whole package, since hammers are ALL you get from Jalis, whereas in Kalla you have the energy to use all three skills... I mean, technically you could use Citadel Bombardment in Jalis form, but you'd have to almost immediately stop channeling your hammers. Although Jalis would let you use Searing Fissure 3 times instead of 2 and Echoing Eruption twice instead of once.

>

> So in the end, we're comparing 13'ish stacks of torment, 4 extra burns, 5 extra torments and some direct damage/siphon hits to 7'ish stacks of torment, 15'ish burns, and 50 bleeds.

>

> Like a said originally, in solo play, Jalis probably still is better, not even counting all the sustain you talked about... But in raids I don't think it's really that close at all, Kalla wins hands down.

 

And then you get into Shattered Observatory CM or any boss fight with knockdowns and your summons get pinballed into being obsolete.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @narcx.3570 said:

>

> Yes, but then you also generate 50 Bleeds from Razorclaw and 10-30 Burns (large hotbox rng) from Citadel Bombardment on top of the Torments from Icerazor (which would only be about 7 on average).

>

> Jalis's 40 hits vs large hitbox would be around 13 stacks of torment on average.

>

> Comparing hammers to one of those skills, sure they seem _really good_. But you have to compare them to the whole package, since hammers are ALL you get from Jalis, whereas in Kalla you have the energy to use all three skills... I mean, technically you could use Citadel Bombardment in Jalis form, but you'd have to almost immediately stop channeling your hammers. Although Jalis would let you use Searing Fissure 3 times instead of 2 and Echoing Eruption twice instead of once.

>

> So in the end, we're comparing 13'ish stacks of torment, 4 extra burns, 5 extra torments and some direct damage/siphon hits to 7'ish stacks of torment, 15'ish burns, and 50 bleeds.

>

> Like a said originally, in solo play, Jalis probably still is better, not even counting all the sustain you talked about... But in raids I don't think it's really that close at all, Kalla wins hands down.

 

Soulcleave beats all of that in ideal conditions. However I digress:

 

I decided to do some tests. Unrealistic buffs, no food. Turns out I was wrong: hammer does 3 hits per second, not 4. On unrealistic buffs it hits for 571 damage 3 times per second, doing roughly 1,713 direct damage per second. In Devastation, the hammers hit for 628 + 79 damage, and under 50% health it hits for 749 + 79 damage. Averaging these two out, it comes to 757 three times per second, 2,272 DPS. This will also proc rampant vex each second, inflicting a torment stack that hits for 1,715 throughout its duration. 1,835 in Invocation.

 

So, for Invocation Vengeful hammers hits for 3,548 DPS, and Devastation hammers hits for 3,987 DPS. No animation time, 10 seconds, the hammers basically do 35k and 39k damage on top of whatever skills you're using. When I say the hammers do a lot of damage, it is really difficult to put that into words. The thing about all of Kalla's utilities is that they go wrong, constantly. They're bad against mobile targets, they're bad against CC spamming targets, they're bad against small targets, they're bad against multiple targets, their cast times are so long that they're bad against targets that force you to dodge a lot, and their bad if your teammates don't gather in one place to receive the buffs. In a clinical scenario it seems like they're all good, but in a practical scenario you would have to spam every utility you have just to compete with what hammers do effortlessly.

 

------------------------------------------------

 

EDIT: Are you guys sure that invocation is better? I just did a couple of no food unrealistic DPS tests for condi renegade, 3 runs for each build. Devastation and Invocation both capped out at 31k DPS.

[LucianDK.8615]

Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

[Ertrak.9506]

> @LucianDK.8615 said:

> Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

 

Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

 

In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

 

For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

 

Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

 

Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

[LucianDK.8615]

> @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

>

> Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

>

> In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

>

> For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

>

> Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

>

> Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

 

I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

[Ertrak.9506]

> @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > > @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > > Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

> >

> > Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

> >

> > In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

> >

> > For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

> >

> > Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

> >

> > Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

>

> I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

 

Honestly, i don't know. I personality get better numbers wth invo over deves in a vacuum, not accounting for mechanics and such. I am also talking strictly personal dps too; I'm not accounting for group dps from AP.

 

Feel free to correct me on this butt the 37k dps benchmark was also done with invo over deves too. I also noticed to that with full buffs the crit chance increase to fury is wasted now as I'm hitting 122 ish crit chance (although this drops when you need to dodge).

 

Edit: full buffs = realistic standard buffs w/ top end food/utility

[LucianDK.8615]

> @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > > @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > > > @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > > > Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

> > >

> > > Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

> > >

> > > In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

> > >

> > > For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

> > >

> > > Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

> > >

> > > Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

> >

> > I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

>

> Honestly, i don't know. I personality get better numbers wth invo over deves in a vacuum, not accounting for mechanics and such. I am also talking strictly personal dps too; I'm not accounting for group dps from AP.

>

> Feel free to correct me on this butt the 37k dps benchmark was also done with invo over deves too. I also noticed to that with full buffs the crit chance increase to fury is wasted now as I'm hitting 122 ish crit chance (although this drops when you need to dodge).

>

> Edit: full buffs = realistic standard buffs w/ top end food/utility

 

For comparision, what does baseline condi rev with invo and deva give?

[Ertrak.9506]

> @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > > @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > > > @Ertrak.9506 said:

> > > > > @LucianDK.8615 said:

> > > > > Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

> > > >

> > > > Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

> > > >

> > > > In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

> > > >

> > > > For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

> > > >

> > > > Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

> > > >

> > > > Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

> > >

> > > I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

> >

> > Honestly, i don't know. I personality get better numbers wth invo over deves in a vacuum, not accounting for mechanics and such. I am also talking strictly personal dps too; I'm not accounting for group dps from AP.

> >

> > Feel free to correct me on this butt the 37k dps benchmark was also done with invo over deves too. I also noticed to that with full buffs the crit chance increase to fury is wasted now as I'm hitting 122 ish crit chance (although this drops when you need to dodge).

> >

> > Edit: full buffs = realistic standard buffs w/ top end food/utility

>

> For comparision, what does baseline condi rev with invo and deva give?

 

 

32k

[narcx.3570]

Yeah, we were talking raids I thought... I would probably never take Kalla in a fractal. Honestly, I probably wouldn't even take renegade... The boon share of herald is so strong in 5 man content it's pretty hard to pass up on. Maybe if I was running with a chrono/druid/CPS, but then... They'd probably just want weavers or firebrands to go with their metacomp and kick our poor rev's to the curb.

 

I'll never be convinced that Invocation out dps's Devastation in group content though... Solo, maybe, it's 7% condi damage, 20% critical strike chance, and 7% direct damage compared to Devastation's 25% critical damage, +7% direct damage, 20% direct damage after 50%, and siphon damage. But the second the sharable 15% crit damage starts going to other people, it easily overtakes Invo.

 

What I still want to know (you guys are running a lot of tests) is does Razorcaw's bleeds scale off your stats, like thief venom share or firebrand's burn sharing, or does it scale off the affected ally's stats, like Sunspirit? I'm assuming the later since they function like spirits in other regards... :astonished: