Why is renegade not viable in pvp? Introducing a build and explaining how it works.

[The Ace.9105]

Been playing renegade in pvp for this past week and have done very well with shiro/renegade build using double sword and staff. The amount of support and utility this spec gives is amazing and it can survive way better than herald or core. Why are ppl saying it's unviable and bad?

 

Edit:

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQNAscmnvNWMT6JvmRVlZzsrytZYWZ3MYs8bmFZliNGyhf4PCvwOUNAWgHA-jZxHQBK7EAIu9HGZZgEeEAAwjAAA

 

Your job: As I said earlier focus more towards helping your allies in a form of cc, support and self sustain. You are not the person that downs the targets but your help will make it much easier for your allies. Help as much as you can but prioritize your own survivability. Don't keep upkeeps if you are about to die. Cleave downed targets and help with ressing allies. You can decap certain classes and hold points in 1v1 also. Hardest part of this build is to get the charged mists proc every swap but with practice you'll get used to it (it's fine to swap without the proc too if you are about to die and can't get your energy at 10 or under if you save your life with it). With vigor, extra 25% endurance regen, double energy sigils and charged mists extra energy shiro you'll dodge a lot. When you use an ability that costs energy you'll also gain swiftness so you can activate/deactivate upkeep skills and get permanent swiftness from rapid flow trait while outside of combat. During combat you'll get the swiftness anyway.

 

Rotation 1 bunkering on point: Start with kalla + 2x sword, get in combat, use skills 9 and 8 and swap to shiro(if having trouble casting the skills to reduce your energy at or under 10 dodge an attack first to gain stability from unwavering avoidance), with 75 energy on shiro you should be fine holding the point, use heal skill on shiro for extra damage and lifesteal, when swap starts to be ready use your energy until it's 10 or below and swap to kalla, use skills 9, 8, 0 and 6 if you need extra healing, do remember that the elite skill heals you from every hit you do against a target (this combo does a lot of damage if the enemy can't get out of it usually ending up downing the target also you will heal and tank a lot if the enemy is trying to kill you inside the area), when under or at 10 energy swap to shiro and repeat. Orders from above f4 helps with cooldowns and you can use it pretty effectively to get your energy under 10. Also if you can you can get 10 might from heroic command f2 skill if you want more damage.

 

Remember to wait for the opportunity to use your sword 4 and 5 main damage skills. You should be fine in terms of survivability with all the dodges you have.

 

Rotation 2 mid fight/mobility: Start with shiro + staff, if you are being targeted you can dodge the burst and use skills 3 and 5 with staff to stay alive, after surviving if getting bursted swap to kalla. If not getting bursted you can help with bursting the target, the important thing is that you'll have to use your energy to 10 or under, swap to kalla, use skills 9, 8, 0 and 6 on point to cleave downed/help with ress/support, cc, damage buff from elite, when your energy is at 10 or under, swap to shiro and help with damage/survive use orders from above f4 to share aoe alacrity and heroic command f2 to share might if you are fine, when at 10 energy or under swap and repeat.

 

Rotation 2 is like the general rotation for this build and you can do fine while using it pretty much every time.

 

Remember that while using kalla elite upkeep avoid using other energy based skills if enemies/allies are in the area doing damage. If you have enough energy and sword 4 ready you can use it to help with burst but otherwise use auto for dps.

 

With avatar amulet the healing skill from renegade heals 5.3k self + 7.86k aoe. Healing with elite (the elite skill doesn't have cooldown on lifesteal effect) and using renegade heal skill just before the swap gives you that 5.3k and with dodges you can avoid the majority of damage and get the 7.86k regen from the aoe heal. Also within the heal area you take -50% condition damage and with righteous rebel trait the damage you take from conditions gets reduced by 35% so the total amount of condition damage reduction is -85% while in the area. Remember that every time you use renegade summoning skill you also share protection and can use kalla elite to share protection and gain swiftness from rapid flow when running with teammates.

[Dace.8173]

Well for starters, Herald is faster. With Kalla all you have is Impossible Odds. However, using that to move around the map is going to suck up your Energy while you can use Facet of the Elements to move between nodes without taking a hit to your Energy. Since Glint is all upkeeps and you can run two upkeeps without draining your Energy you can always be gaining a benefit that you aren't going to get with Kalla. Glint simply works better in PvP than Kalla does. Glint offers you several great boons that also double as offensive powers. Additionally, Glint doesn't rely on your opponent being bad like Kalla does. Kalla's summons can easily be killed and are insanely easy to avoid. In most cases, people can just step out of your AOE and you've accomplished nothing. However, relying on your opponent being a bad player is not something that is going to win you games as you move up the tiers in ranked games. Kalla is a maybe benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint is an always benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint's heal is better than Kalla's heal. Kalla gives you a higher boost but Glint is constantly healing you when you have it going and the ability to turn all incoming damage into health can be a lifesaver, more so if you get caught in a burst. Now that they've expended their burst damage you are standing there at full health and ready to go while they are having to wait for the CDs to finish. This fact alone makes Herald better able to survive than Kalla. You don't have to run with Kalla but then you are going to face the normal issues that core Revenant faces in PvP.

 

One could go back and forth on whether or not Renegade is stronger than Herald I suppose but I've found the Herald line of traits to benefit me more than Renegade when it comes to dealing with other players. Glint simply offers you better and more consistent support than Kalla, a stronger heal than Kalla, and more overall utility, not only to yourself but your entire team, than Kalla. Everytime I use Glint I am going to get a benefit from it. This is not true of Kalla. With Kalla you have a 50/50 shot that you can catch someone in your summon and they stay there long enough for it to matter. With Glint, I can stand in the middle of Kalla's summons and burst a Renegade down because I'm taking no damage at all. Can a person win with it? Sure. I've won a game or two with Kalla. However, Herald will give you more consistent results over the long term, in my experience.

 

PvP tends to favor consistent results and Kalla can't deliver that.

[Dace.8173]

It is also worth stating that we are currently between ranked PvP seasons. You're not always facing people at their best in unranked PvP. A lot of folks use unranked to test out new builds and work out the kinks. So yeah you may be winning right now but the real test would be ranked PvP when more competitive builds are being played.

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> Been playing renegade in pvp for this past week and have done very well with shiro/renegade build using double sword and staff. The amount of support and utility this spec gives is amazing and it can survive way better than herald or core. Why are ppl saying it's unviable and bad?

 

Problem is it suffer from a major weakness of CC and Energy restrictions. It's good for the burst against builds not built for defense and can get the jump on people. Also great for group fights when you can take some of the burst away from you.

[The Ace.9105]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> Well for starters, Herald is faster. With Kalla all you have is Impossible Odds. However, using that to move around the map is going to suck up your Energy while you can use Facet of the Elements to move between nodes without taking a hit to your Energy. Since Glint is all upkeeps and you can run two upkeeps without draining your Energy you can always be gaining a benefit that you aren't going to get with Kalla. Glint simply works better in PvP than Kalla does. Glint offers you several great boons that also double as offensive powers. Additionally, Glint doesn't rely on your opponent being bad like Kalla does. Kalla's summons can easily be killed and are insanely easy to avoid. In most cases, people can just step out of your AOE and you've accomplished nothing. However, relying on your opponent being a bad player is not something that is going to win you games as you move up the tiers in ranked games. Kalla is a maybe benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint is an always benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint's heal is better than Kalla's heal. Kalla gives you a higher boost but Glint is constantly healing you when you have it going and the ability to turn all incoming damage into health can be a lifesaver, more so if you get caught in a burst. Now that they've expended their burst damage you are standing there at full health and ready to go while they are having to wait for the CDs to finish. This fact alone makes Herald better able to survive than Kalla. You don't have to run with Kalla but then you are going to face the normal issues that core Revenant faces in PvP.

>

> One could go back and forth on whether or not Renegade is stronger than Herald I suppose but I've found the Herald line of traits to benefit me more than Renegade when it comes to dealing with other players. Glint simply offers you better and more consistent support than Kalla, a stronger heal than Kalla, and more overall utility, not only to yourself but your entire team, than Kalla. Everytime I use Glint I am going to get a benefit from it. This is not true of Kalla. With Kalla you have a 50/50 shot that you can catch someone in your summon and they stay there long enough for it to matter. With Glint, I can stand in the middle of Kalla's summons and burst a Renegade down because I'm taking no damage at all. Can a person win with it? Sure. I've won a game or two with Kalla. However, Herald will give you more consistent results over the long term, in my experience.

>

> PvP tends to favor consistent results and Kalla can't deliver that.

 

I am usually plat2/3 these past season playing casually.

 

You are kinda right tho when saying that glint always gives you benefits yes but I also think people try to use renegade like revenant has always been used as solo dps roamer. You can just read the renegade skills and think "What if I would play support/utility role and help my team instead of solo roamer?". The amount of sustain and heal is way better on renegade than on herald.

 

Last night for example I tanked 3 ppl on point and when they couldn't kill me 2 of them decided to leave condi mirage to contest and I killed the condi mirage after they left in 1v1 and that was a plat+ team.

 

What comes to movement there's a trait in invocation traitline that gives you swiftness when you use a skill that costs energy with 5s cd and you can activate impossible odds/soulcleave's summit and deactivate the skills right away to get the swiftness so you don't have to waste your energy.

[The Ace.9105]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> It is also worth stating that we are currently between ranked PvP seasons. You're not always facing people at their best in unranked PvP. A lot of folks use unranked to test out new builds and work out the kinks. So yeah you may be winning right now but the real test would be ranked PvP when more competitive builds are being played.

 

That's more of a case in NA I noticed. In EU ppl play more ranked during offseason and since there's not a lot of ppl playing pvp it's almost always plat+ games.

[Dace.8173]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > Well for starters, Herald is faster. With Kalla all you have is Impossible Odds. However, using that to move around the map is going to suck up your Energy while you can use Facet of the Elements to move between nodes without taking a hit to your Energy. Since Glint is all upkeeps and you can run two upkeeps without draining your Energy you can always be gaining a benefit that you aren't going to get with Kalla. Glint simply works better in PvP than Kalla does. Glint offers you several great boons that also double as offensive powers. Additionally, Glint doesn't rely on your opponent being bad like Kalla does. Kalla's summons can easily be killed and are insanely easy to avoid. In most cases, people can just step out of your AOE and you've accomplished nothing. However, relying on your opponent being a bad player is not something that is going to win you games as you move up the tiers in ranked games. Kalla is a maybe benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint is an always benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint's heal is better than Kalla's heal. Kalla gives you a higher boost but Glint is constantly healing you when you have it going and the ability to turn all incoming damage into health can be a lifesaver, more so if you get caught in a burst. Now that they've expended their burst damage you are standing there at full health and ready to go while they are having to wait for the CDs to finish. This fact alone makes Herald better able to survive than Kalla. You don't have to run with Kalla but then you are going to face the normal issues that core Revenant faces in PvP.

> >

> > One could go back and forth on whether or not Renegade is stronger than Herald I suppose but I've found the Herald line of traits to benefit me more than Renegade when it comes to dealing with other players. Glint simply offers you better and more consistent support than Kalla, a stronger heal than Kalla, and more overall utility, not only to yourself but your entire team, than Kalla. Everytime I use Glint I am going to get a benefit from it. This is not true of Kalla. With Kalla you have a 50/50 shot that you can catch someone in your summon and they stay there long enough for it to matter. With Glint, I can stand in the middle of Kalla's summons and burst a Renegade down because I'm taking no damage at all. Can a person win with it? Sure. I've won a game or two with Kalla. However, Herald will give you more consistent results over the long term, in my experience.

> >

> > PvP tends to favor consistent results and Kalla can't deliver that.

>

> I am usually plat2/3 these past season playing casually.

>

> You are kinda right tho when saying that glint always gives you benefits yes but I also think people try to use renegade like revenant has always been used as solo dps roamer. You can just read the renegade skills and think "What if I would play support/utility role and help my team instead of solo roamer?". The amount of sustain and heal is way better on renegade than on herald.

>

> What comes to movement there's a trait in invocation traitline that gives you swiftness when you use a skill that costs energy with 5s cd and you can activate impossible odds/soulcleave's summit and deactivate the skills right away to get the swiftness so you don't have to waste your energy.

 

I'm not really talking about using Renegade as a solo dps roamer. Their support aspects work really well in PvE when you're going up against the AI but for people to get the most out of Kalla they have to stay put. If people aren't moving into your summons then all you really have going for you is Shiro. Kalla's heal may be better as a group heal but Glint is better as a self-heal. That self-heal is going to be far more beneficial to you consider how often people will encounter bursts. You can't support your team when you're dead. It's going to be difficult to make sure your teammates are always fighting inside your summons. Since the support you bring to the table is so immobile this makes your teammates easily kiteable if they try to remain positioned in your summons. There is also the fact that those summons can be destoryed thus ending their effects prematurely. It doesn't help that the summons are easily recognizable allowing the opposing team to anticipate, bait, and avoid. Soulcleaves Summit isn't going to do your team a lot of good if they move away from them. That means that they either need to switch to range to continue gaining the benefits or leave the field and lose those benefits. Also, Facet of Elements is a better movement power than Rapid Flow since it costs you zero Engergy which you will need if you are playing a support role. Also, if you are support, you will need to be using Spirit Boon over Rapid Flow.

 

As I said, Herald is far more consistent than Renegade. It can do the things you talk about but it cannot always do those things and you cannot rely on it nearly as much as you can rely on Glint. Kalla requires you to rely on other people performing in very specific ways, ways that are not always in their best interest, in order for it to do its job. Glint doesn't rely on other people making the right, or wrong, moves but on what you are doing specifically. When it comes to support, Glint's boon sharing is far more effective. I just have to walk up to my team and they gain a benefit. Kalla requires everyone to stay inside the summon.

 

People don't say Renegade doesn't work because they looked at it and just decided to do solo dps roam. People have tried a variety of builds that, for the most part, don't provide a consistent level of result that most folks want in PvP. One or two players may be able to get it to work, but that's kinda true of any given profession and Elite. There is likely always going to be at least one person who is just able to get it to work despite its shortcomings. For most people, though, Kalla is not reliable enough to be considered meta. Meta is determined by what builds consistently work for the majority of people, not what one or two people are capable of pulling off. If Renegade was more reliable people would be playing it. Folks don't like having only one build to play, which is the current state for Revenant.

 

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > It is also worth stating that we are currently between ranked PvP seasons. You're not always facing people at their best in unranked PvP. A lot of folks use unranked to test out new builds and work out the kinks. So yeah you may be winning right now but the real test would be ranked PvP when more competitive builds are being played.

>

> That's more of a case in NA I noticed. In EU ppl play more ranked during offseason and since there's not a lot of ppl playing pvp it's almost always plat+ games.

 

Still doesn't change my point about it being off-season and thus not as competitive.

[The Ace.9105]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > Well for starters, Herald is faster. With Kalla all you have is Impossible Odds. However, using that to move around the map is going to suck up your Energy while you can use Facet of the Elements to move between nodes without taking a hit to your Energy. Since Glint is all upkeeps and you can run two upkeeps without draining your Energy you can always be gaining a benefit that you aren't going to get with Kalla. Glint simply works better in PvP than Kalla does. Glint offers you several great boons that also double as offensive powers. Additionally, Glint doesn't rely on your opponent being bad like Kalla does. Kalla's summons can easily be killed and are insanely easy to avoid. In most cases, people can just step out of your AOE and you've accomplished nothing. However, relying on your opponent being a bad player is not something that is going to win you games as you move up the tiers in ranked games. Kalla is a maybe benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint is an always benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint's heal is better than Kalla's heal. Kalla gives you a higher boost but Glint is constantly healing you when you have it going and the ability to turn all incoming damage into health can be a lifesaver, more so if you get caught in a burst. Now that they've expended their burst damage you are standing there at full health and ready to go while they are having to wait for the CDs to finish. This fact alone makes Herald better able to survive than Kalla. You don't have to run with Kalla but then you are going to face the normal issues that core Revenant faces in PvP.

> > >

> > > One could go back and forth on whether or not Renegade is stronger than Herald I suppose but I've found the Herald line of traits to benefit me more than Renegade when it comes to dealing with other players. Glint simply offers you better and more consistent support than Kalla, a stronger heal than Kalla, and more overall utility, not only to yourself but your entire team, than Kalla. Everytime I use Glint I am going to get a benefit from it. This is not true of Kalla. With Kalla you have a 50/50 shot that you can catch someone in your summon and they stay there long enough for it to matter. With Glint, I can stand in the middle of Kalla's summons and burst a Renegade down because I'm taking no damage at all. Can a person win with it? Sure. I've won a game or two with Kalla. However, Herald will give you more consistent results over the long term, in my experience.

> > >

> > > PvP tends to favor consistent results and Kalla can't deliver that.

> >

> > I am usually plat2/3 these past season playing casually.

> >

> > You are kinda right tho when saying that glint always gives you benefits yes but I also think people try to use renegade like revenant has always been used as solo dps roamer. You can just read the renegade skills and think "What if I would play support/utility role and help my team instead of solo roamer?". The amount of sustain and heal is way better on renegade than on herald.

> >

> > What comes to movement there's a trait in invocation traitline that gives you swiftness when you use a skill that costs energy with 5s cd and you can activate impossible odds/soulcleave's summit and deactivate the skills right away to get the swiftness so you don't have to waste your energy.

>

> I'm not really talking about using Renegade as a solo dps roamer. Their support aspects work really well in PvE when you're going up against the AI but for people to get the most out of Kalla they have to stay put. If people aren't moving into your summons then all you really have going for you is Shiro. Kalla's heal may be better as a group heal but Glint is better as a self-heal. That self-heal is going to be far more beneficial to you consider how often people will encounter bursts. You can't support your team when you're dead. It's going to be difficult to make sure your teammates are always fighting inside your summons. Since the support you bring to the table is so immobile this makes your teammates easily kiteable if they try to remain positioned in your summons. There is also the fact that those summons can be destoryed thus ending their effects prematurely. It doesn't help that the summons are easily recognizable allowing the opposing team to anticipate, bait, and avoid. Soulcleaves Summit isn't going to do your team a lot of good if they move away from them. That means that they either need to switch to range to continue gaining the benefits or leave the field and lose those benefits. Also, Facet of Elements is a better movement power than Rapid Flow since it costs you zero Engergy which you will need if you are playing a support role. Also, if you are support, you will need to be using Spirit Boon over Rapid Flow.

>

> As I said, Herald is far more consistent than Renegade. It can do the things you talk about but it cannot always do those things and you cannot rely on it nearly as much as you can rely on Glint. Kalla requires you to rely on other people performing in very specific ways, ways that are not always in their best interest, in order for it to do its job. Glint doesn't rely on other people making the right, or wrong, moves but on what you are doing specifically. When it comes to support, Glint's boon sharing is far more effective. I just have to walk up to my team and they gain a benefit. Kalla requires everyone to stay inside the summon.

>

> People don't say Renegade doesn't work because they looked at it and just decided to do solo dps roam. People have tried a variety of builds that, for the most part, don't provide a consistent level of result that most folks want in PvP. One or two players may be able to get it to work, but that's kinda true of any given profession and Elite. There is likely always going to be at least one person who is just able to get it to work despite its shortcomings. For most people, though, Kalla is not reliable enough to be considered meta. Meta is determined by what builds consistently work for the majority of people, not what one or two people are capable of pulling off. If Renegade was more reliable people would be playing it. Folks don't like having only one build to play, which is the current state for Revenant.

>

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > It is also worth stating that we are currently between ranked PvP seasons. You're not always facing people at their best in unranked PvP. A lot of folks use unranked to test out new builds and work out the kinks. So yeah you may be winning right now but the real test would be ranked PvP when more competitive builds are being played.

> >

> > That's more of a case in NA I noticed. In EU ppl play more ranked during offseason and since there's not a lot of ppl playing pvp it's almost always plat+ games.

>

> Still doesn't change my point about it being off-season and thus not as competitive.

 

I agree with you on the meta part tho. The build is a bit hard to play and needs a lot of energy management but when done correctly you are way stronger than herald in terms of survivability. The support aspects works well too if your team is aware of what you can do which most of the cases aren't true so then you'll have to cast the summons properly and do a bit of extra work. Best situations are when someone is downed or you'll have to ress someone.

 

Why spirit boon? It's way weaker trait than rapid flow in terms of your own survivability/gameplay and it really doesn't give anything to anyone.

[Dace.8173]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > Well for starters, Herald is faster. With Kalla all you have is Impossible Odds. However, using that to move around the map is going to suck up your Energy while you can use Facet of the Elements to move between nodes without taking a hit to your Energy. Since Glint is all upkeeps and you can run two upkeeps without draining your Energy you can always be gaining a benefit that you aren't going to get with Kalla. Glint simply works better in PvP than Kalla does. Glint offers you several great boons that also double as offensive powers. Additionally, Glint doesn't rely on your opponent being bad like Kalla does. Kalla's summons can easily be killed and are insanely easy to avoid. In most cases, people can just step out of your AOE and you've accomplished nothing. However, relying on your opponent being a bad player is not something that is going to win you games as you move up the tiers in ranked games. Kalla is a maybe benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint is an always benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint's heal is better than Kalla's heal. Kalla gives you a higher boost but Glint is constantly healing you when you have it going and the ability to turn all incoming damage into health can be a lifesaver, more so if you get caught in a burst. Now that they've expended their burst damage you are standing there at full health and ready to go while they are having to wait for the CDs to finish. This fact alone makes Herald better able to survive than Kalla. You don't have to run with Kalla but then you are going to face the normal issues that core Revenant faces in PvP.

> > > >

> > > > One could go back and forth on whether or not Renegade is stronger than Herald I suppose but I've found the Herald line of traits to benefit me more than Renegade when it comes to dealing with other players. Glint simply offers you better and more consistent support than Kalla, a stronger heal than Kalla, and more overall utility, not only to yourself but your entire team, than Kalla. Everytime I use Glint I am going to get a benefit from it. This is not true of Kalla. With Kalla you have a 50/50 shot that you can catch someone in your summon and they stay there long enough for it to matter. With Glint, I can stand in the middle of Kalla's summons and burst a Renegade down because I'm taking no damage at all. Can a person win with it? Sure. I've won a game or two with Kalla. However, Herald will give you more consistent results over the long term, in my experience.

> > > >

> > > > PvP tends to favor consistent results and Kalla can't deliver that.

> > >

> > > I am usually plat2/3 these past season playing casually.

> > >

> > > You are kinda right tho when saying that glint always gives you benefits yes but I also think people try to use renegade like revenant has always been used as solo dps roamer. You can just read the renegade skills and think "What if I would play support/utility role and help my team instead of solo roamer?". The amount of sustain and heal is way better on renegade than on herald.

> > >

> > > What comes to movement there's a trait in invocation traitline that gives you swiftness when you use a skill that costs energy with 5s cd and you can activate impossible odds/soulcleave's summit and deactivate the skills right away to get the swiftness so you don't have to waste your energy.

> >

> > I'm not really talking about using Renegade as a solo dps roamer. Their support aspects work really well in PvE when you're going up against the AI but for people to get the most out of Kalla they have to stay put. If people aren't moving into your summons then all you really have going for you is Shiro. Kalla's heal may be better as a group heal but Glint is better as a self-heal. That self-heal is going to be far more beneficial to you consider how often people will encounter bursts. You can't support your team when you're dead. It's going to be difficult to make sure your teammates are always fighting inside your summons. Since the support you bring to the table is so immobile this makes your teammates easily kiteable if they try to remain positioned in your summons. There is also the fact that those summons can be destoryed thus ending their effects prematurely. It doesn't help that the summons are easily recognizable allowing the opposing team to anticipate, bait, and avoid. Soulcleaves Summit isn't going to do your team a lot of good if they move away from them. That means that they either need to switch to range to continue gaining the benefits or leave the field and lose those benefits. Also, Facet of Elements is a better movement power than Rapid Flow since it costs you zero Engergy which you will need if you are playing a support role. Also, if you are support, you will need to be using Spirit Boon over Rapid Flow.

> >

> > As I said, Herald is far more consistent than Renegade. It can do the things you talk about but it cannot always do those things and you cannot rely on it nearly as much as you can rely on Glint. Kalla requires you to rely on other people performing in very specific ways, ways that are not always in their best interest, in order for it to do its job. Glint doesn't rely on other people making the right, or wrong, moves but on what you are doing specifically. When it comes to support, Glint's boon sharing is far more effective. I just have to walk up to my team and they gain a benefit. Kalla requires everyone to stay inside the summon.

> >

> > People don't say Renegade doesn't work because they looked at it and just decided to do solo dps roam. People have tried a variety of builds that, for the most part, don't provide a consistent level of result that most folks want in PvP. One or two players may be able to get it to work, but that's kinda true of any given profession and Elite. There is likely always going to be at least one person who is just able to get it to work despite its shortcomings. For most people, though, Kalla is not reliable enough to be considered meta. Meta is determined by what builds consistently work for the majority of people, not what one or two people are capable of pulling off. If Renegade was more reliable people would be playing it. Folks don't like having only one build to play, which is the current state for Revenant.

> >

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > It is also worth stating that we are currently between ranked PvP seasons. You're not always facing people at their best in unranked PvP. A lot of folks use unranked to test out new builds and work out the kinks. So yeah you may be winning right now but the real test would be ranked PvP when more competitive builds are being played.

> > >

> > > That's more of a case in NA I noticed. In EU ppl play more ranked during offseason and since there's not a lot of ppl playing pvp it's almost always plat+ games.

> >

> > Still doesn't change my point about it being off-season and thus not as competitive.

>

> > I agree with you on the meta part tho. The build is a bit hard to play and needs a lot of energy management but when done correctly you are way stronger than herald in terms of survivability. The support aspects works well too if your team is aware of what you can do which most of the cases aren't true so then you'll have to cast the summons properly and do a bit of extra work. Best situations are when someone is downed or you'll have to ress someone.

>

> Why spirit boon? It's way weaker trait than rapid flow in terms of your own survivability/gameplay and it really doesn't give anything to anyone.

 

Spirit Boon is actual support, Rapid Flow is not. If you are running a support build Spirit Boon is the more logical choice. Granted, I don't see very many support builds that runs Invocation to begin with. Also, your response pretty much answers your initial question of why Renegade is considered bad for PvP. As you admit

 

> I agree with you on the meta part tho.

 

It's considered bad because it's not considered meta. When we are discussing what is and is not viable in PvP we are mostly discussing the meta. Your build requires a higher skill cap and better Energy management, which is another strike against it. Does that mean that your build is bad for PvP? Yes and no. It means that it's not bad for you as it works with your playstyle and skill level. However, in a meta conversation we are not likely going to push a build that has a high level of Energy management. The support aspect works when your team is **aware** of what you can or are going to do. This isn't a trait of a build that makes it considered viable in PvP. Your build requires a lot of things to come into place in a way that is not reliable. If I run Herald support my team doesn't need to know what I'm going to do. I wouldn't need them to behave in a specific way for best results.

 

The most important thing when we discuss viable builds is the level to which it consistently delivers results. Builds that work for one or two people are just not consistent enough to consider the Elite viable. Such a build is more about **you** the player and less about the strength of the build itself. You are clearly overcoming the shortcomings of Kalla based on your level of skill. Thus, while you have gotten this build to work for you it won't push people to consider Renegade viable unless it delivered consistent results for a much broader audience. Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players. There are always going to be people who find a way to make a build work for them. Even weak Elites and overall specs and playstyles can be amazingly good in the right hands. Scrapper and core Engineer are considered weaker in PvP. However, a good Scrapper or core Engineer player can mop the floor with Holosmith. Viable Elites are consistent result delivers. Doesn't mean that other things can't work. Just means that in the broader discussion other things are more dependent on the player as opposed to the inherent strength of the Elite itself.

 

Still, bravo on finding a way to make Renegade work for you. Send me a link to the build and I'll give it a test drive myself to see if I can make it work for me.

 

 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

Renegade can't do anything on it's own. I love playing it in pvp though, I just stay hidden for a second on team fights and let the chaos start, then I drop my summons and no ones paying attention enough to move out of the way. Its great for stomping and revives with the interrupts. But like others have said, it relies too much on the enemy being out of place and not paying attention.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

>Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

 

Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

 

[messiah.1908]

lets compare those two legends

 

**utilities**

herald as mention above cost low nrg to proc boons which buff your dmg

heal skill makes you continue attack while taking dmg which is huge advantage for your dps and pressure on the enemy

elite provide superspeed and protection and KB cc

unti stealth skill

 

renegade

heal skill while on paper is good with 1 scourge on the enemy team can be harder to pull off with its fear and aoe dmg. to fully utilize it you need to be on the heal skill aoe to get all the hps it gives and dmg reduction which makes you still taking dmg from condition and direct dmg

aoe bleed is not useful with power bleed so 1 utility is not useable. aoe dmg is nice but again suffer cc which shut it down easily. the cc utility save for moment to break stun and easy to avoid . the elite is nice dmg buff to the team and good design and even if cc you can resummon it

 

so yes it seems renegade design was around team support and dmg but it seems anet forgot about cc spam and easy aoe dmg which make your utilities useless.

if all of them were nrg degenerate like soulcleave maybe it could work better

 

regarding utilities

herald focus on self support and dmg

renegade on vigor, fury which you have with invocation, and might which you have with herald and invocation or dmg reduction

 

also F2-4 cost too much nrg

 

this is why renegade is good for pve. nothing attack you.

 

i have to say using soulcleave with mad king rune while AA with SB alone i kill a thief SO FAST....

but that was lucky and thief which cough by surprise

 

 

[messiah.1908]

some clips from while ago with renegade pvp

 

[The Ace.9105]

> @"messiah.1908" said:

> lets compare those two legends

>

> **utilities**

> herald as mention above cost low nrg to proc boons which buff your dmg

> heal skill makes you continue attack while taking dmg which is huge advantage for your dps and pressure on the enemy

> elite provide superspeed and protection and KB cc

> unti stealth skill

>

> renegade

> heal skill while on paper is good with 1 scourge on the enemy team can be harder to pull off with its fear and aoe dmg. to fully utilize it you need to be on the heal skill aoe to get all the hps it gives and dmg reduction which makes you still taking dmg from condition and direct dmg

> aoe bleed is not useful with power bleed so 1 utility is not useable. aoe dmg is nice but again suffer cc which shut it down easily. the cc utility save for moment to break stun and easy to avoid . the elite is nice dmg buff to the team and good design and even if cc you can resummon it

>

> so yes it seems renegade design was around team support and dmg but it seems anet forgot about cc spam and easy aoe dmg which make your utilities useless.

> if all of them were nrg degenerate like soulcleave maybe it could work better

>

> regarding utilities

> herald focus on self support and dmg

> renegade on vigor, fury which you have with invocation, and might which you have with herald and invocation or dmg reduction

>

> also F2-4 cost too much nrg

>

> this is why renegade is good for pve. nothing attack you.

>

> i have to say using soulcleave with mad king rune while AA with SB alone i kill a thief SO FAST....

> but that was lucky and thief which cough by surprise

>

>

 

> @"messiah.1908" said:

> some clips from while ago with renegade pvp

>

>

 

Nice footage.

 

What comes to f2-4 skills you basically only use 2 and 4 since 3 does very little damage and the cost for maybe 1500 damage is 30 energy which isn't worth it. I think the cost on f2 and f4 is fine. The hardest part of playing renegade is the energy management where you have to try and get the charged mists trait proc and swap while energy is at 10 or below. Once you learn the rotation on how to get the extra energy from the trait every time you'll really start to notice the effectiveness of the build on point.

 

What comes to the summon skills the bleed skill is obviously for teams that have condi specs to apply extra pressure/cover to the condi burst. On point the summons are actually pretty strong and do count as part of the skill cap so when in teamfight they absorb hits that would strike allies and allies also take cc'd instead of the summons. Also skills that spread the damage between multiple targets like precision strike and unrelenting assault will lose their power during fights spreading the damage to you and the summons.

 

Remember that timing is everything when using summoning skills. Usually the scourge will start the fight with the fear and then you just simply summon the heal area after that.

 

 

 

 

[The Ace.9105]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

>

> Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

>

 

How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

> >

> > Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

> >

>

> How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

 

I wouldn’t say they lack creativity. Maybe not as creative as they used to be, but top tier teams are most certainly experimenting with various builds and class comps to see what is most effective. Most of the meta builds are constructed by those players after all. If renegade was really meta or strong you’d see it being played by teams, but right now it just has a lot of weaknesses that are easily exploited in a team 5v5 environment. Kalla might work better in solo queue, but individual skill is more important for solo queue and a skilled player can make dozens of builds work that wouldn’t be as effective in a constructed 5v5 environment (automated tournaments)

[The Ace.9105]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

> > >

> > > Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

> > >

> >

> > How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

>

> I wouldn’t say they lack creativity. Maybe not as creative as they used to be, but top tier teams are most certainly experimenting with various builds and class comps to see what is most effective. Most of the meta builds are constructed by those players after all. If renegade was really meta or strong you’d see it being played by teams, but right now it just has a lot of weaknesses that are easily exploited in a team 5v5 environment. Kalla might work better in solo queue, but individual skill is more important for solo queue and a skilled player can make dozens of builds work that wouldn’t be as effective in a constructed 5v5 environment (automated tournaments)

 

I'd argue that kalla works better in 5v5 environment than in solo and would take it into consideration when building a team as one of the viable specs even tho the spec isn't the most easiest in terms of gameplay.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

> > > >

> > > > Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

> > > >

> > >

> > > How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

> >

> > I wouldn’t say they lack creativity. Maybe not as creative as they used to be, but top tier teams are most certainly experimenting with various builds and class comps to see what is most effective. Most of the meta builds are constructed by those players after all. If renegade was really meta or strong you’d see it being played by teams, but right now it just has a lot of weaknesses that are easily exploited in a team 5v5 environment. Kalla might work better in solo queue, but individual skill is more important for solo queue and a skilled player can make dozens of builds work that wouldn’t be as effective in a constructed 5v5 environment (automated tournaments)

>

> I'd argue that kalla works better in 5v5 environment than in solo and would take it into consideration when building a team as one of the viable specs even tho the spec isn't the most easiest in terms of gameplay.

 

I think you need to ask the question “why do teams in 5v5 not take Power Kalla renegade?” And I think you’ll find the answer is “it’s relatively squishy as hell” and “other classes/specs do what you want it to do, but way better (I.e. Scourge/Reaper).”

[The Ace.9105]

> @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

> > > > >

> > > > > Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

> > >

> > > I wouldn’t say they lack creativity. Maybe not as creative as they used to be, but top tier teams are most certainly experimenting with various builds and class comps to see what is most effective. Most of the meta builds are constructed by those players after all. If renegade was really meta or strong you’d see it being played by teams, but right now it just has a lot of weaknesses that are easily exploited in a team 5v5 environment. Kalla might work better in solo queue, but individual skill is more important for solo queue and a skilled player can make dozens of builds work that wouldn’t be as effective in a constructed 5v5 environment (automated tournaments)

> >

> > I'd argue that kalla works better in 5v5 environment than in solo and would take it into consideration when building a team as one of the viable specs even tho the spec isn't the most easiest in terms of gameplay.

>

> I think you need to ask the question “why do teams in 5v5 not take Power Kalla renegade?” And I think you’ll find the answer is “it’s relatively squishy as hell” and “other classes/specs do what you want it to do, but way better (I.e. Scourge/Reaper).”

 

Renegade is literally a bunker on point. Like a said earlier ppl assume to be on the dps role on revenant.

 

Tanking 3 meta builds on point as renegade for so long that 2 of them decides to leave the point and leave condi mirage behind to die in 1v1 is pretty strong even if the players aren't that good. There is definitely more sustain in renegade spec than ppl think.

[phokus.8934]

Except against anyone with a brain, you're not doing a 3v1 as a Renegade.

[The Ace.9105]

> @"phokus.8934" said:

> Except against anyone with a brain, you're not doing a 3v1 as a Renegade.

 

That was more to point out that renegade has sustain.

[Dace.8173]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

> >

> > Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

> >

>

> How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

 

I don't think people aren't creative. Almost every build, in the beginning, was something that may or may not work and got tested time and time again until it was strong enough to survive as meta. As time moves forward that creative build becomes the standard as more and more people use it. Again, meta is about consistency and broader appeal. Outside the box stuff tends to work best for that person as in many ways outside the box is dependent on your playstyle. It's also worth pointing, lots of people suck at theorycrafting. Lots of people don't want to put in the time to make something work. Lots of people just want to log in and use something that is known to work so they can win. That's the appeal of meta, it's a shortcut for people not interested in theorycrafting and experimenting.

 

There is creativity and there is creativity that actually works. The latter tends to not be the standard for most people.

 

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

> > > >

> > > > Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

> > > >

> > >

> > > How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

> >

> > I wouldn’t say they lack creativity. Maybe not as creative as they used to be, but top tier teams are most certainly experimenting with various builds and class comps to see what is most effective. Most of the meta builds are constructed by those players after all. If renegade was really meta or strong you’d see it being played by teams, but right now it just has a lot of weaknesses that are easily exploited in a team 5v5 environment. Kalla might work better in solo queue, but individual skill is more important for solo queue and a skilled player can make dozens of builds work that wouldn’t be as effective in a constructed 5v5 environment (automated tournaments)

>

> I'd argue that kalla works better in 5v5 environment than in solo and would take it into consideration when building a team as one of the viable specs even tho the spec isn't the most easiest in terms of gameplay.

 

Here's another crucial thing about meta, meta is about not having a team and still working. People who have a regular team, who practice with this team, who are able to have complementary builds, who learn what the others are going to do have a lot more freedom in build design than the average player. A good, practiced, well-oiled team can overcome the shortcomings of a lot of professions.

 

Meta allows people to PUG and still do well. Meta allows your build to work on its own and not rely on getting lucky enough to be placed in the team with the right kind of people to back you up. > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > > @"LucianTheAngelic.7054" said:

> > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > > > > >Herald is considered viable because it delivers consistent results for a broader audience of Revenant players.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Just to tack onto this a bit too, it’s not only just what is considered to be most effective for revenant itself, but also what is considered to be most effective in a 5 man constructed team setting. Hence why ele doesn’t actually have any “meta” builds atm for conquest since it’s just not used by top tier teams generally. If renegade was actually solid and meta it would be being played by top tier teams, but it’s not because of its pretty big weaknesses/issues

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > How ppl build meta these days lacks the creativity that players once had. Ppl simply take the easiest route to what has already been effective and modify it without thinking outside the box. Also that way they don't have to learn that much new stuff.

> > > >

> > > > I wouldn’t say they lack creativity. Maybe not as creative as they used to be, but top tier teams are most certainly experimenting with various builds and class comps to see what is most effective. Most of the meta builds are constructed by those players after all. If renegade was really meta or strong you’d see it being played by teams, but right now it just has a lot of weaknesses that are easily exploited in a team 5v5 environment. Kalla might work better in solo queue, but individual skill is more important for solo queue and a skilled player can make dozens of builds work that wouldn’t be as effective in a constructed 5v5 environment (automated tournaments)

> > >

> > > I'd argue that kalla works better in 5v5 environment than in solo and would take it into consideration when building a team as one of the viable specs even tho the spec isn't the most easiest in terms of gameplay.

> >

> > I think you need to ask the question “why do teams in 5v5 not take Power Kalla renegade?” And I think you’ll find the answer is “it’s relatively squishy as hell” and “other classes/specs do what you want it to do, but way better (I.e. Scourge/Reaper).”

>

> Renegade is literally a bunker on point. Like a said earlier ppl assume to be on the dps role on revenant.

>

> Tanking 3 meta builds on point as renegade for so long that 2 of them decides to leave the point and leave condi mirage behind to die in 1v1 is pretty strong even if the players aren't that good. There is definitely more sustain in renegade spec than ppl think.

 

That is way too specific dude. It is also likely that they stay to wear down your sustain or the Mirage is the one to depart and the "lets soak some damage" Spellbreaker remains. Or the Deadeye starts picking you off from distance while you are tied up with one or two folks.

 

For most people, the sustain you speak of does not work. If it did work we would have Renegade builds in the meta. The assumption that people claim Renegade is deemed bad because people approach it as a DPS build is not true. People try all kinds of builds, including ones that aren't DPS focused, before the consensus that it is not viable forms. You've gotten your build to work. However, you've only gotten your build to work for you. What works for you may not work for other people. Unless the build you are running can be run by other people in a variety of situations it's not really a viable build. It's a workable build but it's a build that relies on you the player and not the build itself.

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > Well for starters, Herald is faster. With Kalla all you have is Impossible Odds. However, using that to move around the map is going to suck up your Energy while you can use Facet of the Elements to move between nodes without taking a hit to your Energy. Since Glint is all upkeeps and you can run two upkeeps without draining your Energy you can always be gaining a benefit that you aren't going to get with Kalla. Glint simply works better in PvP than Kalla does. Glint offers you several great boons that also double as offensive powers. Additionally, Glint doesn't rely on your opponent being bad like Kalla does. Kalla's summons can easily be killed and are insanely easy to avoid. In most cases, people can just step out of your AOE and you've accomplished nothing. However, relying on your opponent being a bad player is not something that is going to win you games as you move up the tiers in ranked games. Kalla is a maybe benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint is an always benefit you Legend in PvP. Glint's heal is better than Kalla's heal. Kalla gives you a higher boost but Glint is constantly healing you when you have it going and the ability to turn all incoming damage into health can be a lifesaver, more so if you get caught in a burst. Now that they've expended their burst damage you are standing there at full health and ready to go while they are having to wait for the CDs to finish. This fact alone makes Herald better able to survive than Kalla. You don't have to run with Kalla but then you are going to face the normal issues that core Revenant faces in PvP.

> > >

> > > One could go back and forth on whether or not Renegade is stronger than Herald I suppose but I've found the Herald line of traits to benefit me more than Renegade when it comes to dealing with other players. Glint simply offers you better and more consistent support than Kalla, a stronger heal than Kalla, and more overall utility, not only to yourself but your entire team, than Kalla. Everytime I use Glint I am going to get a benefit from it. This is not true of Kalla. With Kalla you have a 50/50 shot that you can catch someone in your summon and they stay there long enough for it to matter. With Glint, I can stand in the middle of Kalla's summons and burst a Renegade down because I'm taking no damage at all. Can a person win with it? Sure. I've won a game or two with Kalla. However, Herald will give you more consistent results over the long term, in my experience.

> > >

> > > PvP tends to favor consistent results and Kalla can't deliver that.

> >

> > I am usually plat2/3 these past season playing casually.

> >

> > You are kinda right tho when saying that glint always gives you benefits yes but I also think people try to use renegade like revenant has always been used as solo dps roamer. You can just read the renegade skills and think "What if I would play support/utility role and help my team instead of solo roamer?". The amount of sustain and heal is way better on renegade than on herald.

> >

> > What comes to movement there's a trait in invocation traitline that gives you swiftness when you use a skill that costs energy with 5s cd and you can activate impossible odds/soulcleave's summit and deactivate the skills right away to get the swiftness so you don't have to waste your energy.

>

> I'm not really talking about using Renegade as a solo dps roamer. Their support aspects work really well in PvE when you're going up against the AI but for people to get the most out of Kalla they have to stay put. If people aren't moving into your summons then all you really have going for you is Shiro. Kalla's heal may be better as a group heal but Glint is better as a self-heal. That self-heal is going to be far more beneficial to you consider how often people will encounter bursts. You can't support your team when you're dead. It's going to be difficult to make sure your teammates are always fighting inside your summons. Since the support you bring to the table is so immobile this makes your teammates easily kiteable if they try to remain positioned in your summons. There is also the fact that those summons can be destoryed thus ending their effects prematurely. It doesn't help that the summons are easily recognizable allowing the opposing team to anticipate, bait, and avoid. Soulcleaves Summit isn't going to do your team a lot of good if they move away from them. That means that they either need to switch to range to continue gaining the benefits or leave the field and lose those benefits. Also, Facet of Elements is a better movement power than Rapid Flow since it costs you zero Engergy which you will need if you are playing a support role. Also, if you are support, you will need to be using Spirit Boon over Rapid Flow.

>

> As I said, Herald is far more consistent than Renegade. It can do the things you talk about but it cannot always do those things and you cannot rely on it nearly as much as you can rely on Glint. Kalla requires you to rely on other people performing in very specific ways, ways that are not always in their best interest, in order for it to do its job. Glint doesn't rely on other people making the right, or wrong, moves but on what you are doing specifically. When it comes to support, Glint's boon sharing is far more effective. I just have to walk up to my team and they gain a benefit. Kalla requires everyone to stay inside the summon.

>

> People don't say Renegade doesn't work because they looked at it and just decided to do solo dps roam. People have tried a variety of builds that, for the most part, don't provide a consistent level of result that most folks want in PvP. One or two players may be able to get it to work, but that's kinda true of any given profession and Elite. There is likely always going to be at least one person who is just able to get it to work despite its shortcomings. For most people, though, Kalla is not reliable enough to be considered meta. Meta is determined by what builds consistently work for the majority of people, not what one or two people are capable of pulling off. If Renegade was more reliable people would be playing it. Folks don't like having only one build to play, which is the current state for Revenant.

>

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > It is also worth stating that we are currently between ranked PvP seasons. You're not always facing people at their best in unranked PvP. A lot of folks use unranked to test out new builds and work out the kinks. So yeah you may be winning right now but the real test would be ranked PvP when more competitive builds are being played.

> >

> > That's more of a case in NA I noticed. In EU ppl play more ranked during offseason and since there's not a lot of ppl playing pvp it's almost always plat+ games.

>

> Still doesn't change my point about it being off-season and thus not as competitive.

 

One thing I will say the Renegade heal condition damage reduction is great for Revenant in PvP and the added AoE healing to go with Soul Cleave is great and the burst is great. Just suffer from the energy system and the CCity of Warband. Herald provide great healing to self yes, and utility in combat.

[Buran.3796]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> Been playing renegade in pvp for this past week and have done very well with shiro/renegade build using double sword and staff. The amount of support and utility this spec gives is amazing and it can survive way better than herald or core. Why are ppl saying it's unviable and bad?

 

Renegade lacks defensive/mobility tools and no, is not even close to Herals in terms of survability (and way worse in terms of burst damage, and AoE cleave and cc).

[The Ace.9105]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

>It's a workable build but it's a build that relies on you the player and not the build itself.

 

It's so sad that this is the case nowadays. It used to be more or less about the player and not the build until anet decided to go with the route of warrior and necro buff that allowed the build to carry the player to an extent and the expansions took this to the next level where the average gold player gets carried by the build to way outside of his rotation skills and tactical thinking making the game way less balanced.

 

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> Renegade lacks defensive/mobility tools and no, is not even close to Herals in terms of survability (and way worse in terms of burst damage, and AoE cleave and cc).

 

If you came to that conclusion I'd advice you to think outside the box and expand your way of building the renegade to be not so much of an dps/condi spec but focus more towards helping your allies in a form of cc, support and self sustain. You are not the person that downs the targets but your help will make it much easier for your allies.

 

I'd like to encourage ppl to think creatively but I higly doubt that will happen so I am thinking of bringing back the explanation and rotation of the build that this topic was at first.