condition builds require way more skill than cheesy power burst ones

[zencow.3651]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> weakness doesn't activate on crit hits and power builds run high crit rate

>

 

That's actually false . That was the case on release but since the June 25 2013 patch https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2013-06-25#Profession_Skills that's no longer the case and it's effects has been discussed quite a lot since this introduction due to it's ambiguity, one of the newer posts being https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/17160/can-we-talk-about-weakness. The summary is, whenever glancing procs it takes priority and essentially makes your crit chance ZERO for those hits in addition to halving the damage of those hits. Weakness has since become a very hard counter to crit-based power builds and corrupting might into weakness is one of the key ways scourge survives against those builds.

 

As for on-topic, firebrands are more common in plat and above and their farting out condi-cleanses makes killing people with crit-based power damage much more effective than condi with damage that stays (but ofc you still need boon removal to do so efficiently).

 

Given that 'Condi builds' in sPvP actually means Power/Condition/x/x damage given the limited flexibility in amulets, I'm otherwise on the fence. Power/Condi/x/x amulets like Sages on Scourge and Weaver for example makes use of the stat efficiency of condi to deal good damage while surviving but on the otherhand Power/Prec/x/x amulets like Paladin on BoonBeast and Reaper is still effectively used for the same purpose by abusing the ferocity from traits. Condi-burst Wizard's vs Power-burst Maurauder's is pretty much just as potent as each other.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

Dude has some points, but it doesn't matter if Power or Condi is OP. The problem is everyone is capable of doing just about everything, while still doing ridiculous damage because of Elite specs.

[viquing.8254]

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> You dodge power burst you're safe for the next couple dozen seconds.

Ahem, actually the meta look more like burst pers second (BPS) than damage per second (DPS). High damage output certainly haven't dozen second CD in the current meta.

> You cleanse condis you're struck with another batch immediately after.

Then you dodge condi application the same way you dodge power dps PLUS you can cleanse if needed.

 

[FyzE.3472]

What's next? Mesmer is balanced?

[incisorr.9502]

> @"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:

> You dodge power burst you're safe for the next couple dozen seconds.

>

> You cleanse condis you're struck with another batch immediately after.

 

what sort of a joke is that lol

 

you dodge mesmer's cry of frustration and his condi application is heavily limited for the next 21 seconds

 

you dodge power burst and you get hit for 3k damage auto attacks 2 times per second, courtesy of guards, thieves,revenants, rangers who actually do 5k as soulbeasts not 3k

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > @"Abazigal.3679" said:

> > Right now, this isn't a skill question, but it's really hard to play a full burst build in this meta, whereas probably any average joe can expect good results running a condition build. You get the proof of this where a lot of players who have no idea how to play capture points managed to climb with scourge or mirage.

>

>

> where are those climbers with scourge and mirage?

>

> didn't i literally just tell you there is only one scourge and one mirage in top 20

>

> what are you people even smoking lmao

> , the other 17 people play power builds and prolly 10 of them have ferocity in the build as well (cus 1 is the duo+guy)

>

> why is this forum so full of trolls

>

>

 

The meta and playstyle is however totally different between top100 and average rating. You aren't seeing double scourge, double mirage or whatever at top level because all 5 players know how to counter/play against them. However, it takes only 1 or 2 players to get rolled by that, and that's pretty much why gold rating matchs are a gamble..

I have no doubt that if we put top100 players at silver/gold level, they will climb back for sure, but they will see that it's really a huge pain and totally non fun.

 

Climbers with scourge for sure won't go to 1800 rating thus. But still, going from 1100 to 1450 only thanks to a build is already a bit too much in my opinion

 

Now my point is : should we balance the game around gold league ? for sure not. But still, balancing in this game is hard to debate because usually you have topics with people from every level not sharing the same opining, but both opinions are usually true.

[MyPuppy.8970]

It's easier to apply condies (any fart will do) than powerbursting someone (needs more precision in execution).

[Milan.9035]

> @"MyPuppy.8970" said:

> It's easier to apply condies (any fart will do) than powerbursting someone (needs more precision in execution).

 

Thats like saying its easier to power auto attack than it is to condi burst.

 

Also i love how people say power got more defenses vs it than condi. Really there is only weakness. The problem is that the damage is not the same. If one does a million and other does 100 then having the million reduced by 33% will not make it do lower damage.

 

 

But really all this talk back and forth is pointless. We all got the game. Q up. You see mostly power. The only real condi builds are scourge and mesmer. And thats the end of the story.

[incisorr.9502]

power is just dumb, it's spiraled way out of control

 

I can beat 10 power people in 1v1 (as an example) but i'd need to dodge everything perfectly which i can do and then i meet one of them in a real game and i land 20-30 stacks of conditions on him , he just uses a single shake it off and the entire damage is undone. Use a bunch more condis he just uses berserker stance and they're irrelevant, use a bunch more he just uses counter, use a bunch more he just blocks , use a bunch more he just uses his heal resistance, use bunch more he already has back his shake it off and then his counter and then his block

 

and then he finally manages to land one skill on me after i had to time blocks and dodges on all his skills and i lose 14k dmg by a whirlwind iframe warrior and then i alt+Tab to the forum to see some plebs crying about CONDI mesmer. Like. I would understand if u cried about power mesmer cus the dmg scaling in this game has turned into idiocy but condi? lmao please

 

i log onto soul beast , use sick em use quickening zephyr press maul = 13kdmg, press worldly impact = 20k dmg

, press rapid fire easy 18k damage from 1500 range in 1 sec

 

i log onto mesmer, = i need to summon THREE illusions and then i need to be in melee range of my enemy so i can do a 3 illusion F2 with my body as well to merely get 12 confusion stacks , i need to land axe 3 which isn't very easy to land on a moving target (same goes for shatters btw) and even then i only get 18 stacks of confusion , then i'd have to channel the whole scepter 3 to get 7 more to get to a decent sized stacks of confusion (25, which was pretty much the norm before pof even released or at least around the beginning cus i didnt get pof instantly so i dont really remember if it was released or not yet) and then he presses *one button* and its ALL GONE

 

protection is busted (has always been) cus 33% is a huge number and having protection matters too much

they should reduce the effectiveness of protection and also the power damage so that when you get hit by power attacks when you have no protection you don't take 30 bazillion damage or make it that every class can get equal access to protection which isn't even remotely the case

 

if protection is reduced to 20% and physical dmg is reduced by 13% you basically take a huge step in the right direction cus power dmg gets slightly lower

next step would be to target-reduce soulbeast's dumb scaling and reaper's unreasonably high damage on top of 30 random passives proccing to debuff ur enemy to death and then deadeye

 

and then the other very important thing would be to touch might stacking cus the whole concept of might stacking is incredibly stupid and flawed and unfun to play with or against.

= back in the day it was supposed to be a team effort to get 25 might stacks and then you get rewarded for being coordinated and what not but people just started finding ways to do it by themselves and so anet just decided "whatever, let's give everyone cheap ways to get unreal amounts of might stacks" so they overall increased it and now there are classes that can get easy 25 might stacks while other classes can't and that makes no sense whatsoever and then you have warriors doing 14k damage with an iframe ability while also getting might stacks from it while also getting healed for it lol

 

max might stacks should be reduced from 25 to something lower in pvp at least, or give the same accessibility to might stacks to everyone (which will just make the game worse anyway)

 

 

 

 

 

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"EthanLightheart.9168" said:

> Yeash scourges need so much skill.... omg come on

 

They're pretty darn slow, so they do in fact require skill, especially if a ranged class singles them out.

 

I know I know.. yuck ranged class.. why would anyone want to jump on those..

[Nimon.7840]

> @"EthanLightheart.9168" said:

> Yeash scourges need so much skill.... omg come on

 

Ever tried to 1v1 on scourge?

 

It's the worst possible spec to play for 1v1s.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

I thought this was a sarcastic post at first until I actually read it. Still think its a joke. There's "generally" less skilled required for condi builds than DPS builds due to the "Load em up and walk away" aspect where DPS needs to stay engaged. Some classes's ability to sustain condi damage is helping lowering the skill.

 

Condi Mirage...as I say....is only used by those that don't know how to Mirage properly ( or gave up on trying). I used to main condi mirage a while back so I know how cheesy and easy mode it is compared to its DPS variant. Condi mirage vs condi scourge leans toward condi mirage a bit more imo due to the sustain and ease of the class. No one can take a condi mirage player 100% serious due to the ease of it. Its like picking up a game and going on baby mode. You may beat people, but you are only being carried by the mode (the build in this case).

 

Condi Mirage/scourge/thief can jump/laugh/feel good...etc, but at the end of the day....its the build doing the work...not the player

 

inb4 ppl think no DPS are bad...there are DPS builds that carry players as well..such as ghost sniper DE for example that require little to no skill as well...however theres more condi than DPS that require little to no skill.

[incisorr.9502]

condi mirage is easy he says because apparently needing to be in melee and summon three illusions to get high condi stacks that do no damage in the first second that can be cleansed by a single button is easy but pressing 1 button on a power build is not


 

(took the gif from another person in thread about worldly impact right now on the forum cus i can't bother recording stuff like that myself)

 

who's fault is it if you can't cleanse conditions? Not your enemy's fault thats for sure

 

 

I'm not sure how the concept of " condi lets you play the game and react and power doesn't " still manages to elude the average/below average player

 

if a mesmer ambushes you out of stealth with 20/20 torment confusion and if you have a cleanse that's insta cast (or auto activate) like ranger ones, ele with water, mesmer mantra, plague signet, shake it off, signet of agility etc any of that IT LITERALLY DOES LESS THAN 4K DMG BY THE TIME YOU REALISTICALLY REACT AND PRESS THE BUTTOn

if a thief ambushes you out of stealth it does 18k damage

 

that's about it, if you get on higher elo you'll see what i mean cause good players can deal with condi but they can't deal with surprise power burst cause they don't leave you any room to play the game, even soulbeasts get 2shot by a DE unless they expect it which goes to prove my point how power bursts can be cheesy and can win you many situations like that

 

condi is gradual slow pressure for which you need to take multiple steps and your enemy can react to all of them

power can be just 1 step

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> condi mirage is easy he says because apparently needing to be in melee and summon three illusions to get high condi stacks that do no damage in the first second that can be cleansed by a single button is easy but pressing 1 button on a power build is not

> 

>

> (took the gif from another person in thread about worldly impact right now on the forum cus i can't bother recording stuff like that myself)

>

> who's fault is it if you can't cleanse conditions? Not your enemy's fault thats for sure

>

>

> I'm not sure how the concept of " condi lets you play the game and react and power doesn't " still manages to elude the average/below average player

>

> if a mesmer ambushes you out of stealth with 20/20 torment confusion and if you have a cleanse that's insta cast (or auto activate) like ranger ones, ele with water, mesmer mantra, plague signet, shake it off, signet of agility etc any of that IT LITERALLY DOES LESS THAN 4K DMG BY THE TIME YOU REALISTICALLY REACT AND PRESS THE BUTTOn

> if a thief ambushes you out of stealth it does 18k damage

>

> that's about it, if you get on higher elo you'll see what i mean cause good players can deal with condi but they can't deal with surprise power burst cause they don't leave you any room to play the game, even soulbeasts get 2shot by a DE unless they expect it which goes to prove my point how power bursts can be cheesy and can win you many situations like that

>

> condi is gradual slow pressure for which you need to take multiple steps and your enemy can react to all of them

> power can be just 1 step

 

Clearly you fail to see outside the small box. Its all about the sustain. Cleanse their burst, it doesnt take long for their next condi burst to come off CD...esp if Axe/Torch and Scepter/torch). Yeah you can clean the stacks, however a smart condi mirage (or a semi decent one anyway) knows how to:

 

1.) Bury the right condis so takes multiple cleanses

and

2.) Save some condi burst for after you use some cleanses.

 

Say what you will. Ive played condi mirage for quite some time before I dropped it for my current non meta DPS build (in both WvW and PvP). Ive reached High Gold/Low Platinum with it one NA season before swapping to DPS so I never made it to Legendary (this I will admit).

 

 

[PLS.4095]

Guys just stop cry.

Condi and power are broken and nobrain because POF / HOT

 

Its easy to take some good example to say if condi is more nobrain than power or noT.

 

Scourge vs Dardevil d/p ?

Holo vs core engi condi ?

 

And sorry but actually top 100 are not really good player but just decent.

[mcees.1308]

There is actually no single condi class that could 1v1 condi mirage. The best mirages counter is high power dmg between mirages cloacks and invulns.

[xp eke xp.6724]

Let me tell you why i think we have only "players" as an issue.

 

First if we do our homework, we will figure out that on theory the game is balanced:

- cause in theory all players would try to use the best builds to be competitive. So noone will play worse builds

 

So at that point we got the first balance break.

 

Secondly the theory can't lie, means: you can use skills and calc, it will be allways the same result if you do right. But cause it's difficult to replay the theoretically optimal gameplay, it means only that we didn't reach the lvl to do so! Cause of that we have a randomness on the theory. This randomness gets bigger as worser the theory get used by practice.

 

Btw that's the main reason why we have bigger bounces on low elo, then on high elo. Just imagine the difference between using a skill at right time by being good an how a random action affect the situation, now multiply it and you can see the bounce on your theorycrafting.

 

The optimal gameplay ofc change to abuse mistakes and ends by adapting faster the situation on your favour.

 

The competitive game is always balanced!

 

But this means, all changes are irrelevant. Yes no patch/fixes are needed, so why do it?

 

Normally we need something new if we master the content, if we don't it feels like you fall back, at worst case it's more like all things you worked/figure out/trained/tested/learned mind nothing. Thats okay, if you like new challenges and feel save on your skills as a player, but otherwise it's only frustrating.

 

So the reason for "balance" is to bring at least a little new content to make it still enjoy able, but thats only possible if the skillcurve isn't too high/low.

 

But what can we do about all this? Well spread the knowledge and help the community to get a base. On this way we work against the frustration by having less randomness at all and get motivated on your and the communities evolution.

 

Let's do the race of being the best together! My lidle rabbits <3

[incisorr.9502]

^ basically his point is that good builds are picked by people on high elo and that's a good indication of what's good

 

then we go back to my proof/example/argument that there is only a single mirage in the current top 20 (and it's not using the meta build)

 

condi is garbage right now and not cause condi is bad but cause power is way too good

[myboybuzzy.5809]

The main difference comes from survivability, with power you have to have crit chance and crit damage ( precision and ferocity) with condi you dont need those so you can be tankier with stats like dire and trailblazers.

 

The other difference is with builds like condi mirage and condi evade spam daredevil you get rewarded offensively for using defensive actions, for example the condi dodge trait on daredevil or ambush attacks on mirage. This promotes a braindead type of play, especially at lower levels because people with blow all thier skills and not hit yoh while you put 20 stacks of confusion on them.

 

However good players will destroy you, except if your a good condi mirage, since condi mirage has so many evades, distorts stealth, and break target skills. Not complaining tho cause I main thief and rarely have issues with them :)

Back on topic good players will know when your out of Dodges because you spammed them and your other defensive utilities.

 

You shouldn't get flamed for condi, especially engineer, it's cool to see core engi trying to make a comeback, I still try to make core 3 kit work every now and then.

 

Final point thing is if your having trouble with a one shot build, play it a little. They are super easy to counter as most of them are telegraphed, and after you done thier burst they have nothing. Exception being some one shot deadeyes in wvw, but that's not even really fun to play.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

the issue isn't whats op or not... its that some people don't know theyre bad due to a high opinion of themselves (or not prone to self reflection aka ignorance).

 

not to gloat... but I know im bad. sometimes I try to facetank cry of frustration or shadespam. sometimes I facetank warrio burst chain. in the end I know its my own fault. YOU CAN TOO.

[incisorr.9502]

> @"myboybuzzy.5809" said:

> The main difference comes from survivability, with power you have to have crit chance and crit damage ( precision and ferocity) with condi you dont need those so you can be tankier with stats like dire and trailblazers.

>

> The other difference is with builds like condi mirage and condi evade spam daredevil you get rewarded offensively for using defensive actions, for example the condi dodge trait on daredevil or ambush attacks on mirage. This promotes a braindead type of play, especially at lower levels because people with blow all thier skills and not hit yoh while you put 20 stacks of confusion on them.

>

 

 

try playing condi without power and precision, you won't kill anyone on higher elo

 

the difference between sage's amulet and wizard's amulet is already incredibly noticeable (1050 power 1050 condi dmg vs 1050 power 560 precision 1050 condi dmg) what goes if you actually drop power and precision.. literally wont kill anyone as long as they have sustain. If you reduce your dmg your pressure also reduces , it's worse from what i've played around with.

On top of that, at least for mirage, it's much easier to get protection in your build without losing damage as power than it is as condi. Condi only gets protection from chaos and from staff and both make you lose a ton of dmg (and thus pressure) and lose a ton of matchups and have much lower impact in team fights as well

 

 

 

[shippage.1983]

Worrying about skill is the dumbest thing. Who cares. Just block any salty people and do whatever it takes to get rank 1.

[MrFrusciante.2438]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> I get insulted daily for playing a condi build for whatever reason. Condi mirage = get flamed, condi thief which i cant even play cus im not that good at thief = get flamed "CONDI THIEF NOOB LOL" , condi engi = get flamed.

> It's always been like this and for some reason people try to "imply" that condi is lame or overpowered which is why they even call you out on it in the first place but in reality that's not even remotely the case ?

> I was arguing in game that condi requires more skill cus you need to do 30 things to dwindle down your opponent and with power you just cheesily 1shot them before they can even react (revenant,guard, thief,reaper for example) and you know what some guy said ? "YOU CAN DODGE POWER BURSTS" LMAO BTW the intelligence on some players, cus apparently you can't dodge condition damage and apparently you're a prophet and know when a guy is going to power burst you out of stealth or with a teleport from a wall

>

> The reason why CC is op and the reason why in turn based games playing things that deny your opponent from playing is op because not giving your enemy any chance to react is op and condition is literally the exact opposite of that -

> ~your enemy has all chances to react cus he can > cleanse, resistance, dodge. If you die to condi it happens over time and you have time to do something about it.

> ~Meanwhile against power - you can't cleanse power, you can't resistance power either and you can just dodge it if you even know its happening cus this game has enough of things to make it so that you don't know its happening . On top of that your teammates can cleanse conditions for you and you can even convert conditions into boons but your teammates CANT dodge for you against power and healing works against both types of damage. There are way more ways to shut down condition than there are ways to shut down power, there are way more power build players in top 50-100 of the ladder (actually would probably be 90%+ power against 10% condi at best)

> on top of that there are unblockable hits which are usually power damage and most of the power damage skills don't require a target unlike condi ones (talking about wep skills directly)

>

> against condi you can actually play the game and do things, against power half of the time you get oneshot if you get ganked or zerged and then you have 3000 people still whining about condi non-stop cause condi is a noob killer and cause it also punishes greedy builds and that's all there is to it

>

> even in this forum the amount of condi mirage QQ is insane when in reality and in game playing power mirage is much easier than playing condi mirage lol. I can beat your condi mirage 95% of the time + (feel free to take me up on my challenge and see how far you get) but against power? there will be occasional duels where you just get a random 1shot burst to which it can't be reacted which literally proves my point, that it doesn't require as much skill to pull off

>

> i'm not saying condi should be buffed, i'm saying power should be nerfed. It's ridiculous and its 10 times easier to play, most of the skills require no target, do way too much damage and have way too little counterplay . The "power creep" really hit gw2 hard imo cus over time they felt like they should add stronger and better new things and now we're stuck with 16k dmg backstabs out of stealth or 18k deaths judgements from 1500 range which is unblockable or 20k dmg bursts from guards who teleport thru 3 walls or revenant doing 20k dmg with shackling wave with daggers on , obviously after a tp thru 3 walls. Meanwhile if you drop 20 confusion stacks and 20 torment stacks on someone as a mesmer he can literally press one button to undo all of it and then for some reason it's still condi getting all the hate on the forum , simply because people make greedy builds and get punished for it

>

> imo the only problematic condi is builds that can spam weakness (necro) cus weakness hard-counters power and it also counters dodges and in general everything in the game, it's too broken and now there are too many weaknesses thrown all over the place while a few years ago that was a "hard to get "debuff cus it was scarce but it was good so it felt more fair, now it's just spammed everywhere..

 

learn to play.....

[GenerationX.9178]

Condition requires only condition damage. Burst Requires Power,Precision and Ferocity need I say more?

[incisorr.9502]

> @"GenerationX.9178" said:

> Condition requires only condition damage. Burst Requires Power,Precision and Ferocity need I say more?

 

yes

 

condition also requires power and precision

 

when you pass 1200 elo