Cyninja.2954 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now. > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need. > > > > > > > > > > No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most. > > > > > > > > > > As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make. > > > > > > > > > > * 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal > > > > > * 5 Glob of Ectoplasm > > > > > * 5 Elaborate Totem > > > > > * 2 Charm of Brilliance > > > > > > > > > > The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make. > > > > > > > > > > * 1 Bolt of Gossamer > > > > > * 1 Elaborate Totem > > > > > * 1 Charged Lodestone > > > > > > > > > > An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework. > > > > > > > > > > > Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.) > > > > > > > > > > **The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.** > > > > > > > > That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging. > > > > > > > > Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct. > > > > > > My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now. > > > > > > > So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless. > > There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now. Except if you use this as reason to complain when it is short term market adjustments. Unless you want to argue that the game be kept in a constant state of no change or balance or development. > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example. > > > > That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils. > > No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality. > > > Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong. > > You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct. > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong. > > > > So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right? > > You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now. Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not? It is literally impossible to change or balance or redesign things without short term effects on the market. As such any complaining is pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: > Edit: Oh, I see, it takes 3 charms to craft one rune. Right, the number is closer to 200 then (though can be calculated more precisely when I'm bored, lol). Yeah, I think my example started off being some mishmash of rune and sigil terms. Well, it's still a big discrepancy in either case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pifil.5193 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need. > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most. > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make. > > > > > > > > > > > > * 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal > > > > > > * 5 Glob of Ectoplasm > > > > > > * 5 Elaborate Totem > > > > > > * 2 Charm of Brilliance > > > > > > > > > > > > The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make. > > > > > > > > > > > > * 1 Bolt of Gossamer > > > > > > * 1 Elaborate Totem > > > > > > * 1 Charged Lodestone > > > > > > > > > > > > An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.) > > > > > > > > > > > > **The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.** > > > > > > > > > > That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging. > > > > > > > > > > Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct. > > > > > > > > My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now. > > > > > > > > > > So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless. > > > > There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now. > > Except if you use this as reason to complain when it is short term market adjustments. Unless you want to argue that the game be kept in a constant state of no change or balance or development. > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example. > > > > > > That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils. > > > > No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality. > > > > > Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong. > > > > You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct. > > > > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > > > Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong. > > > > > > So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right? > > > > You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now. > > Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not? > > It is literally impossible to change or balance or redesign things without short term effects on the market. As such any complaining is pointless. If it's short term by any given definition of short term then yes. However there is no guarantee these are short term effects. Anyway if you read my post again you'll see I'm not strongly opposed to the increase in costs, as I said: > Again [these cost changes are] not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight. _My_ contention is with the idea that we're all better off _because_ of these changes. It didn't make things better, just different. Selling runes and sigils wasn't a problem for me. They could just have added recipes for runes and sigils that used existing materials (maybe even a use for luck) and I'd have been happy. 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Cyninja.2954 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > > > > > > > If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal > > > > > > > * 5 Glob of Ectoplasm > > > > > > > * 5 Elaborate Totem > > > > > > > * 2 Charm of Brilliance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > * 1 Bolt of Gossamer > > > > > > > * 1 Elaborate Totem > > > > > > > * 1 Charged Lodestone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > **The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.** > > > > > > > > > > > > That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct. > > > > > > > > > > My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless. > > > > > > There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now. > > > > Except if you use this as reason to complain when it is short term market adjustments. Unless you want to argue that the game be kept in a constant state of no change or balance or development. > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example. > > > > > > > > That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils. > > > > > > No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality. > > > > > > > Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong. > > > > > > You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct. > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Pifil.5193" said: > > > > > > > > > > Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong. > > > > > > > > So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right? > > > > > > You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now. > > > > Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not? > > > > It is literally impossible to change or balance or redesign things without short term effects on the market. As such any complaining is pointless. > > If it's short term by any given definition of short term then yes. However there is no guarantee these are short term effects. > > Anyway if you read my post again you'll see I'm not strongly opposed to the increase in costs, as I said: > > > Again [these cost changes are] not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight. > > _My_ contention is with the idea that we're all better off _because_ of these changes. It didn't make things better, just different. Selling runes and sigils wasn't a problem for me. They could just have added recipes for runes and sigils that used existing materials (maybe even a use for luck) and I'd have been happy. Sure, it's different. A strong argument against this being an improvement is how gear works in this game with no huge increases (beside ascended boxes which also become obsolete eventually) but rather gradual value provided. I'm just in favor of waiting to see how all pans out while others are already in full alarm mode. The basic design of the new system will distribute wealth and value more evenly across all runes and sigils. How well this is balanced and if the community responds well to this we will see in the mid- and long-term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarrs.4831 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > I'm just in favor of waiting to see how all pans out while others are already in full alarm mode. What do you mean, I don't have to immediately freak out about new changes and can wait for the dust to settle? I want to be _mad, now_! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airdive.2613 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > Edit: Oh, I see, it takes 3 charms to craft one rune. Right, the number is closer to 200 then (though can be calculated more precisely when I'm bored, lol). > > Yeah, I think my example started off being some mishmash of rune and sigil terms. Well, it's still a big discrepancy in either case. A couple of observations. 1. According to the wiki, different runes require different number of charms (1 or 3) and lucent crystals (12 or 4), which obscures direct comparison. Still, we can deduce that some runes are designed to be more "interconnected" with the whole rune market, requiring more universally available lucent motes, while some runes are designed to be more "expensive in their element" (potence etc.). 2. If we would want to salvage "the worst rune available" and craft "the best rune available requiring 3 charms", then the expected "worst rune" value for salvaging to be profitable is indeed {3 times 1/(salvage chance) plus other material costs}, or less. Nevertheless, salvaging is a random experiment. According to my quick math, in the case of you salvaging 100 runes with the charm salvage chance of 2% (so expectation of 2 charms), there is about 32% probability of you actually getting 3 charms or more (along with lucent mote drops), which would likely be beneficial. I think it's enough to make some people decide they're lucky enough to try salvage-crafting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hashberry.4510 Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 The game has needed a new sink for ectos and T6 mats. Looks like a smart move by ANet, though it will be rough for a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 just FYI: Superior Sigils and Runes also have higher crafting requirements. old crafting recipe: 1 ecto 1 lodestone 1 ori ingot. New recipe: 10 ectos 1 lodestone 2 symbols 100 Lucent Motes. Seems like they mostly want to drive ecto price up, and add a considerable sink to motes. Gotta say, i will miss salvaging my runes/sigils out. I kinda used them for upgrading leveling and new characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"Airdive.2613" said: > According to my quick math, in the case of you salvaging 100 runes with the charm salvage chance of 2% (so expectation of 2 charms) From the observed drop chances so far, it seems to actually be not 2%, but 0.9% > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not? If, but that's unlikely. First, the salvage rate is much lower compared to before (now you need several hundred of superior runes to craft one usable rune, before the ratio of obtaining vendor trash to usable ones was a way better). Second, the cost of _other_ materials went up as well, because the new recipes use more of them (ecto) and more costly ones (like using maguuma lilies, freshwater pearls and azurite orbs instead of a single lodestone). Given all that, it's extremely unlikely the long term results won't end up way worse than before change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Airdive.2613" said: > > According to my quick math, in the case of you salvaging 100 runes with the charm salvage chance of 2% (so expectation of 2 charms) > From the observed drop chances so far, it seems to actually be not 2%, but 0.9% > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Great so if things will be fine, then all is good or not? > If, but that's unlikely. First, the salvage rate is much lower compared to before (now you need several hundred of superior runes to craft one usable rune, before the ratio of obtaining vendor trash to usable ones was a way better). Second, the cost of _other_ materials went up as well, because the new recipes use more of them (ecto) and more costly ones (like using maguuma lilies, freshwater pearls and azurite orbs instead of a single lodestone). > > Given all that, it's extremely unlikely the long term results won't end up way worse than before change. > You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective. An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash. The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this. As I said, the basic design of the system is sound. How good or bad salvage rates are chosen at this initial implementation time will tell. Currently the market and supply is no honest representation of the change since player behavior is heavily affected by the last patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"amidare.9561" said: ~snip~ > > I know that most of you will disagree with term P2W here, but imo if you are without gold, either you spend $$ and have money now to change your build or you farm days thus you are far behind from those who paid real money. Don't get me wrong, farming isn't that bad (to some extent of course), but ask yourself, would you like to grind your kitten for few days every time meta builds change? No? Obviously it would be easier and time saving to buy gems, but wouldn't it be more fun to spend gems on what you want not what you need? > ~snip~ > How about this instead, unless you're playing a mode that you think requires a meta build, just say screw it and play what you want(which is an original design philosophy behind this game). Then your suggestion that this game is P2W, which it is only in your mind, would be pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective. > > An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash. Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway). And the materials i mentioned being the problem are the ones that are problematic even now, because they are hard to obtain due to very low drop rates. Yes, people selling pearls, lilies or giant eyes will earn more, but those were already wort a lot and didn't need that increase. For everyone else however (so, a huge majority), it will be a net negative. > The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this. I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective. > > > > An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash. > Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway). > Yes but salvage trash which has a chance to provide crafting materials for useful runes/sigils. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > And the materials i mentioned being the problem are the ones that are problematic even now, because they are hard to obtain due to very low drop rates. Yes, people selling pearls, lilies or giant eyes will earn more, but those were already wort a lot and didn't need that increase. For everyone else however (so, a huge majority), it will be a net negative. I doubt the majority of supply comes from farmers here, but yes, these materials will not be a benefit to everyone becoming more expensive. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this. > I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard. > Possible, but if people seriously used inferior salvage kits to get high value Runes and Sigils (2g+) then all that has changed is that now the chance of failure is getting priced in (instead of not getting the rune/sigil in the past). The interesting question is how the salvage rates compare to the past direct supply. Obviously not all runes/sigils were entering the market (since some would not get retrieved with master kits) which now experience a 100% salvage rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CETheLucid.3964 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Symbol and charm salvage rates do seem absurdly low. But wisdom also dictates we give it a little longer than ~5 days before we say it's broken or not viable and the rate needs to be bumped up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective. > > > > > > An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash. > > Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway). > > > > Yes but salvage trash which has a chance to provide crafting materials for useful runes/sigils. Yes, but i already factored that in in my arguments The salvage rates of the needed materials are lower than the former trash to good runes/sigils ratio. Much lower. > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this. > > I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard. > > > > Possible, but if people seriously used inferior salvage kits to get high value Runes and Sigils (2g+) then all that has changed is that now the chance of failure is getting priced in (instead of not getting the rune/sigil in the past). No, because the lower kits will now create materials, not runes. And i already mentioned how that source has a much worse rate than the original one. > The interesting question is how the salvage rates compare to the past direct supply. Obviously not all runes/sigils were entering the market (since some would not get retrieved with master kits) which now experience a 100% salvage rate. They are way worse. I know that, because i happen to salvage everything and keep the runes (both trash and good ones). Thus, i can tell you that the rate of trash to good ones was much lower (better) than 100 to 1. While now you need to salvage on average a hundred runes/sigils to get one charm/symbol (of which for the meta runes/sigils you need _more_ than one for crafting). So, salvage rate alone will result in lowered supply and increased price, and that's even before we consider the changes to _other_ materials, that on average were increased as well, and now often use more rare and highly problematic ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 I have played with this new stuff for three days now, and I feel grim. I bought a stack of something for the "control" and I think I got three....only three. We shall see though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > You are looking at this from a pure gold to rune/sigil perspective. > > > > > > > > An increase in cost of materials means that people selling said materials will gain more gold. At the same time a more even distribution of value will be achieved across all runes and Sigils. Meaning you won't be left with 1 out of 100 runes/Sigils being worth more than vendor trash. > > > Nah, considering the salvage rates, the runes/sigils that were vendor trash before will be vendor trash now (well, not vendor trash, salvage trash, but trash anyway). > > > > > > > Yes but salvage trash which has a chance to provide crafting materials for useful runes/sigils. > Yes, but i already factored that in in my arguments The salvage rates of the needed materials are lower than the former trash to good runes/sigils ratio. Much lower. > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > The salvage rate will remain exactly the same once Black Lion Salvage Kits are working as intended. The ability to craft the expensive runes should not impede this. > > > I'm pretty sure that the runes salvaged with black lion kits were a minority out of all available on TP. There's still a ton of people using masters/mystics for exotics, because they simply do not have any black lions. The influx of runes to TP from salvage is going to drop really, really hard. > > > > > > > Possible, but if people seriously used inferior salvage kits to get high value Runes and Sigils (2g+) then all that has changed is that now the chance of failure is getting priced in (instead of not getting the rune/sigil in the past). > No, because the lower kits will now create materials, not runes. And i already mentioned how that source has a much worse rate than the original one. > > > The interesting question is how the salvage rates compare to the past direct supply. Obviously not all runes/sigils were entering the market (since some would not get retrieved with master kits) which now experience a 100% salvage rate. > They are way worse. I know that, because i happen to salvage everything and keep the runes (both trash and good ones). Thus, i can tell you that the rate of trash to good ones was much lower (better) than 100 to 1. While now you need to salvage on average a hundred runes/sigils to get one charm/symbol (of which for the meta runes/sigils you need _more_ than one for crafting). > > So, salvage rate alone will result in lowered supply and increased price, and that's even before we consider the changes to _other_ materials, that on average were increased as well, and now often use more rare and highly problematic ones. -----snip While now you need to salvage on average a hundred runes/sigils to get one charm/symbol (of which for the meta runes/sigils you need _more_ than one for crafting). ----finish Exactly this. This is the odds I got with my salvaging as well. 250 sigils of something yielded only three thingys of control. Anet needs to tune things or I see bad things arising. Lisa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julischka Bean.7491 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"OtakuModeEngage.8679" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Yes, the market should never have to adapt 3 days into a patch. > > > > No one is storing materials currently thus reducing supply to the market thus driving up prices. > > > > Let's all freak out AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. > > That's not the case. The cost will drop as players stop hoarding the new symbols and charms, however, the price drop will not be significant, as even the basic, previously cheap, runes now use expensive mats such as Globs of Ectoplasm, and other runes require multiple of the "cheaper" runes to craft. The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP. ----snip That's not the case. The cost will drop as players stop hoarding the new symbols and charms ---finish By the six, people are hoarding because they can already foresee the future prices and future availability of these things if Anet does not do something about the drop rate. It is not pretty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hashberry.4510 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Hmm guidy just burned 100 sunless, got 13 potence. Jelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 so whats the drop rate for symbols/charms? I heard its something like 1.3% lol? plus salvage kit type doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
serenitycat.4623 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 So , how is it not _**BROKEN**_ that Azurite Orbs currently do not have a regular drop rate from any "farmable" source ( since you need **_multiple_** orbs , for say , just to make 1 amalgamated gemstone) ??? By farmable source I mean , an ememy drop or a node you can mine/gather- preferably not locked behind something like Fractals which not all players run. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Azurite_Orb And that's just _ONE_ example of problems with the rune sigil crafting...... I, personally, can definitely see where there are things that need to be corrected with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CETheLucid.3964 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 > @"serenitycat.4623" said: > So , how is it not _**BROKEN**_ that Azurite Orbs currently do not have a regular drop rate from any "farmable" source ( since you need **_multiple_** orbs , for say , just to make 1 amalgamated gemstone) ??? > By farmable source I mean , an ememy drop or a node you can mine/gather- preferably not locked behind something like Fractals which not all players run. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Azurite_Orb > And that's just _ONE_ example of problems with the rune sigil crafting...... I, personally, can definitely see where there are things that need to be corrected with this. They really should let Jewelers promote Azurite Crystals into Orbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eloc Freidon.5692 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 I'm plugging in the argument that the amount of symbols and charms isn't sustainable to the market. There will come a time that the runes and sigils (uncommon and rare) will disappear entirely from the TP because the only way to acquire new ones is to craft them. No one will want to waste their symbols/charms on anything but Superior since. And the amount of gear I've salvaged doesn't produce them at any rate. Symbols and Charms drop too rarely, 80% with silver-fed isn't actually 80%. Let sigils and runes drop normally like before and just let us salvage those if we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArenaNet Staff Gaile Gray.6029 Posted November 17, 2018 Author ArenaNet Staff Share Posted November 17, 2018 Gentle Reminder: This is the thread in which you should place your feedback about changes to runes and sigils. There are certain threads that speak exclusively about a specific rune or sigil, and for the most part they're being left to stand alone (to avoid a merge that muddies the conversation). However, general feedback is best here, and we appreciate your sharing your thoughts in this thread whenever possible. One exception I can think of is threads that speak to changes and how they will impact a specific profession. Those would probably best to shared in that profession's subforum, because that's a very specific conversation that deserves the specialized audience for that topic. But those sorts of comments are also welcome here, if you'd prefer. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellent Name.9574 Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 This, IMHO, like any other stat/gear/upgrade balance is not a balance at all. In few weeks there will be a crystallization of handful of viable builds and the rest will be proclaimed as trash, cancer...etc. This is just a cash-in on upgrade extractors as classic extracting would have worked as well. It is sad how Anet and Nexon ruin the backbone of the game every few months but here we are...I am just glad I have a hoard of Sigils an Runes stashed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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