Rune and Sigil Changes - 13 November 2018 [Merged]

[alchemist.6851]

expect this weekend to be intense !!!

[binidj.5734]

The drop rates for rune/sigil components are _ridiculously_ low. Honestly what were you thinking?

[Tyger.1637]

> @"binidj.5734" said:

> The drop rates for rune/sigil components are _ridiculously_ low. Honestly what were you thinking?

 

The motes are dropping fine but the elements are low. Like not even one so far from any equipment or rune. Maybe I'll have better luck with superior runes/sigils or with a Mystic/Master or BLSK.

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

>

> Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

 

No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

 

As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

 

* 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal

* 5 Glob of Ectoplasm

* 5 Elaborate Totem

* 2 Charm of Brilliance

 

The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

 

* 1 Bolt of Gossamer

* 1 Elaborate Totem

* 1 Charged Lodestone

 

An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

 

> Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

 

The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.

[binidj.5734]

@"Tyger.1637" said:

> The motes are dropping fine but the elements are low. Like not even one so far from any equipment or rune. Maybe I'll have better luck with superior runes/sigils or with a Mystic/Master or BLSK.

 

Not had a single element drop using Mystic kits. I use Mystic on rares, copper-fed on everything else; I may need to revise that given the abysmal drop rates on motes that I'm getting with the Salvage-o-Matic.

[Durzlla.6295]

Of courses it’s cheaper to buy runes and Sicily’s atm than to make them, the crafting materials for runes and sigils came into existence 3 days ago, and all the old runes and sigils that has been salvaged and thrown on the TP haven’t sold yet. Give the market time to balance out.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

> >

> > Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

>

> No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

>

> As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

>

> * 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal

> * 5 Glob of Ectoplasm

> * 5 Elaborate Totem

> * 2 Charm of Brilliance

>

> The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

>

> * 1 Bolt of Gossamer

> * 1 Elaborate Totem

> * 1 Charged Lodestone

>

> An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

>

> > Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

>

> **The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.**

 

That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

 

Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

 

Here is what it boils down to:

if the crafting materials required to craft high demand runes are lower than pure rune supply in the past, the prices will increase.

if the crafting materials required are higher, prices will be lower at the top end, meanwhile ALL runes of all values increase in value since they now all provide ressources to the system.

[Sznurek.8791]

> @"OtakuModeEngage.8679" said:

> The drop rate for the Lucent Motes is pretty abundant and does not need adjusting, but the drop rate for symbols and charms is ridiculously low

I can't agree that Lucent Motes don't need adjustments. It will be another worthless material which would be stupid if this is the most important material for all runes.

It will make runes drop still useless. Agreed that symbols and charms should drop more often they should strike a balance between these two so Lucent motes aren't worthless(something like 1silver would be great like a normal material),

 

 

[Blocki.4931]

Let's be real for a moment: Given the amount of trash sigils and runes that were spamming my inventory up until last patch, these droprates are perfectly fine. They are this way because you don't only get 1 or 2 chances for them a day. You get hundreds, if not thousands if you play a lot. Things will normalize soon enough.

 

The only bad thing to come from this is that salvaging now feels laggy, with items being salvaged twice before disappearing essentially.

[amidare.9561]

The price of sigils and runes left on TP will go up as leftovers will be bought over time. There won't be income of new sigils and runes for a while (until it will be worth to salvage exotic items with Black Lion Salvage Kits). At this point, crafting cost is still low and not matching cost of Upgrade Extractors which is around 20g/one if you buy 25x (clearly ANET wants us to buy it, but it's not worth yet - market must adapt and stabilize around this price). Every slight change in meta will shake sigil/rune market hard. Every nerf/boost to professions may create huge impact in sigil/rune market as well, when people will TRY to adapt to new meta but then changing your build will cost a lot. Now imagine you have few alts and you want to upgrade their armor/weapon too.

 

I know that most of you will disagree with term P2W here, but imo if you are without gold, either you spend $$ and have money now to change your build or you farm days thus you are far behind from those who paid real money. Don't get me wrong, farming isn't that bad (to some extent of course), but ask yourself, would you like to grind your ass for few days every time meta builds change? No? Obviously it would be easier and time saving to buy gems, but wouldn't it be more fun to spend gems on what you want not what you need?

 

It's pity that in near future we will have to spend hundred of gold to change build where not so long time ago literaly EVERYBODY, even new players could change their build at any time for affordable amount of gold. I absolutely dislike what is happening now. Of course I know I might be wrong here and my predictions my be wrong as well, but from business perspective, current sigil/rune model is just perfect for ANET, but not necessarily for players. It feels like slap in the face, really.

 

 

[Zeno Iagara.8540]

My issue is that they have locked off an important part of crafting behind rng, I need to salvage an unknown amount of items in the hope of getting the right symbol or charm. Some people are happy with the drop rates and that's fine, just don't call those of us that disagree some kind of whinging kid.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Yes, the market should never have to adapt 3 days into a patch.

>

> No one is storing materials currently thus reducing supply to the market thus driving up prices.

>

> Let's all freak out AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

 

That's not the case. The cost will drop as players stop hording the new symbols and charms, however the price drop will not be significant, as even the basic, previously cheap, runes now use expensive mats such as Globs of Exctoplasm, and other runes require multiple of the "cheaper" runes to craft. The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"OtakuModeEngage.8679" said:

> The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP.

You're writing as if there was a single price in the past.

 

Before the announcement of the patch, there were three values of upgrades: vendor trash, low-priced upgrades, and overpriced ones. (NB: "upgrade" referring to just sigils & runes.) A lot of people recognized this as economically problematic. The most desired ones were sometimes 500 times more expensive than the least-useful. Further, some (even vendor trash) items only dropped randomly, without any direct source. Most notable among these: the Superior Sigil of Notification. You could get as many as you wanted (even after Requiem armor) on the TP, but you depended on everyone else to list theirs on the TP.

 

In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

 

So yes, most upgrades will cost more, because they won't be vendor trash any longer. And thus the most expensive won't be 500x more valuable. Instead of funding a single coveted rune with 100 or 200 or 500 of non-desired runes, we'll need only a handful.

 

The whole point of overhauling the system is to bring up the bottom of the upgrade market and tone down the relative height of the market's peaks (and perhaps even lower it absolutely).

 

That said, there's a lot to quibble over regarding specific recipes. I feel there's an over-reliance on just a few mats and I'm not sure about the ratio of required items (especially ecto & T6 fine mats).

 

tl;dr yes, of course prices of some upgrades are going up; that's an intended goal of the overhaul because it's going to (in the long run) decrease the relative cost of the most expensive ones.

 

 

 

[Biff.5312]

I don't know how much things will 'balance out', given that it's expensive to either extract or craft runes now I don't see how the supply is going to increase. It will likely only go down, while the mats drop in price - who knows how long it will take before these are cheap enough to make crafting profitable? Even when it does, people will not craft to the point where it is no longer profitable, so we won't likely see cheap runes again.

What I DO know is that since this change it's very expensive to get runes of any kind for my toons. I don't know where I'm supposed to be getting these 'thousands of salvages' spoken of above, but so far I've only seen about 4 motes, and I don't have a single recipe for anything I'd want that doesn't cost far more than it's worth.

 

So I'm now in the preposterous position of having lvl 80 toons with no runes/sigils equipped while I wait for prices to drop - something I'm assured will happen but I don't see how/why it will.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

> @"yann.1946" said:

> Crafting doesn't have to be cheaper tho, it's a way for people to work towards things on their own.

>

> That's atleast what a lot of people in the sigil of nullification thread where saying

 

Sure, let's see them all say that every couple of months or so when they have to spend 100s of gold to re-rune and re-sigil for the new meta build

[Gop.8713]

> @"OtakuModeEngage.8679" said:

> > @"yann.1946" said:

> > Crafting doesn't have to be cheaper tho, it's a way for people to work towards things on their own.

> >

> > That's atleast what a lot of people in the sigil of nullification thread where saying

>

> Sure, let's see them all say that every couple of months or so when they have to spend 100s of gold to re-rune and re-sigil for the new meta build

 

I think you may be exaggerating slightly. I imagine what I'll do is look in mat storage for all the stuff that has accumulated over those couple of months or so . . .

[keenedge.9675]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

> So I'm now in the preposterous position of having lvl 80 toons with no runes/sigils equipped while I wait for prices to drop - something I'm assured will happen but I don't see how/why it will.

 

Why choose that? Standing naked in the cold, shunning a blanket?

 

Use some crests and reasonable sigils until your 'ship comes in'. We've all done this IRL and in-game.

 

 

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

> > >

> > > Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

> >

> > No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

> >

> > As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

> >

> > * 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal

> > * 5 Glob of Ectoplasm

> > * 5 Elaborate Totem

> > * 2 Charm of Brilliance

> >

> > The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

> >

> > * 1 Bolt of Gossamer

> > * 1 Elaborate Totem

> > * 1 Charged Lodestone

> >

> > An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

> >

> > > Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

> >

> > **The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.**

>

> That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

>

> Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

 

My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

 

I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

 

Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

> > > >

> > > > Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

> > >

> > > No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

> > >

> > > As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

> > >

> > > * 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal

> > > * 5 Glob of Ectoplasm

> > > * 5 Elaborate Totem

> > > * 2 Charm of Brilliance

> > >

> > > The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

> > >

> > > * 1 Bolt of Gossamer

> > > * 1 Elaborate Totem

> > > * 1 Charged Lodestone

> > >

> > > An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

> > >

> > > > Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

> > >

> > > **The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.**

> >

> > That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

> >

> > Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

>

> My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

>

 

So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless.

 

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

> I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

 

That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils.

 

Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong.

 

> @"Pifil.5193" said:

>

> Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

 

So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right?

[Pifil.5193]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > > > > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > > > > If you compare what we used to get (vendor trash, that required vendoring or TP-listing dozens of items) with what we get now (stuff that can be deposited into material storage and only 8 types of materials), we're far, far better off now.

> > > > >

> > > > > Looking at the data from 1000s of salvages, it's clear that we're currently pulling in more coin (if we sell) which can be used to purchase whatever upgrades we need.

> > > >

> > > > No, I don't think we're far, far better off. At least, the fact that it was vendor trash wasn't much of a problem for me. "Vendor trash" items are just money after all. It was a minor inconvenience at most.

> > > >

> > > > As for the materials, sure someone will make more money selling them than selling old Runes and Sigils directly but the obvious flip-side is that anyone who wants to actually use them ends up having to spend a lot more. Take Scholar Runes as an example, the new recipe costs 3g 73s to make.

> > > >

> > > > * 5 Pile of Lucent Crystal

> > > > * 5 Glob of Ectoplasm

> > > > * 5 Elaborate Totem

> > > > * 2 Charm of Brilliance

> > > >

> > > > The old recipe cost about 1g 60s to make.

> > > >

> > > > * 1 Bolt of Gossamer

> > > > * 1 Elaborate Totem

> > > > * 1 Charged Lodestone

> > > >

> > > > An increase of over 12g per set (14g if you include your water breather). Not the end of the world but it's still additional cost when gearing up. The whole rework feels to me like an excuse to add another material sink to the game. That's not a bad thing in itself as the game could use some more sinks but to me adding the sinks feel like the primary purpose of the rework.

> > > >

> > > > > Eventually, the supply will start to accumulate, as the initial demand surge drops off and we keep salvaging by the truckload. Prices will start to fall and soon, people will be complaining that stuff isn't worth anything. (Although that won't be true either.)

> > > >

> > > > **The price will drop but with very few new Sigils and Runes entering the market from the "traditional" manner (i.e. salvaging gear) I wouldn't count on it dropping all that much any time soon. Again it's not necessarily a bad thing and we'll all adjust but it feels a little off when costs are doubled or tripled overnight.**

> > >

> > > That part I take issue with. You have no idea how many runes and sigils are entering the market. Right now a lot of people are hoarding the new materials. What you leave out is: all that vendor trash sigils and runes are now being salvaged into crafting materials. That alone can be a huge increase in supply. I personally sold all my green and rare sigils to vendors pre patch consistently, currently I have not listed any crafting materials, and I had some 2 stacks of Superior Sigils stored up for salvaging.

> > >

> > > Also your math is based on inflated prices of the TP at the moment. Pair that with your wild assumption that supply is less and yes, from that point of view one might be concerned. Doesn't not make the point of view any more correct.

> >

> > My math is based on the actual prices now, you may think they're inflated but they're the real world prices right now.

> >

>

> So considering there is a market adjustment in progress, that math is worthless.

 

There are always market adjustments happening my math is entirely valid for those of us who actually live in the here and now.

 

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> > I explicitly stated that there would be few new runes and sigils entering the market from the traditional method (salvaging) and that's hardly a "wild assumption." It's basic logic, before now people got runes and sigils all the time from salvaging masterwork, rare and exotic equipment, a lot of those ended up on the TP, now they do not get them from salvaging unless they use a BL salvage kit or an upgrade extractor and I can't see many people using BLSK on Masterwork equipment, for example.

>

> That is a half truth, currently Black Lion Salvage Kits are bugged and do not provide the same amount of Sigil/Rune resources as they should. Once those are fixed they will provide you with the material equivalent or Rune/Sigil when salvaging. Simply put, you are geting way more materials for runes/sigils to craft while getting less actual runes/sigils.

 

No they will provide you with the runes and sigils as before, that's their intended functionality.

 

> Based on that reasoning, your assumptions are wrong.

 

You're trying to expand what I actually said beyond my actual statement in order to create a universe where you're right, that won't work, read my actual statement: materials are not runes or sigils obtained from salvaging my statement is 100% correct.

 

>

> > @"Pifil.5193" said:

> >

> > Finally, I stated that I don't think prices will drop all that much any time soon. Meaning I do think they'll drop but I think it'll happen slowly so I don't know what you think my point of view is but you're probably wrong.

>

> So if prices adjust eventually, all is fine and the title of this thread and opening topic is false, right?

 

You're funny. I'd say it will be fine if and when they adjust but it's not fine now.

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

 

I'm not sure how you get there.

 

Let's say rune A and rune B have equivalent drop rates, that rune A is basically useless in any build, and rune B is very desired. Both salvage to and are crafted with Charms of Exemplification. Let's also assume that the recipes are similar, such that crafting either takes 3 charms, along with 3g of other materials. The equilibrium price for rune B is around 12g, due to being meta. The charms are worth around 3g each, since rune B is the main driver of their value.

 

Now, if rune A has about a 2% chance to salvage into a charm, using a Mystic salvage kit, then it's actual expected value is around 2% of 3g, or 6s. Not that many people would bother extracting the rune or crafting it, most likely, so it's just a slight bonus to the value of whatever exotic has it (but much less than the value of mats, ectos, insignias, and dark matter). You won't see much of rune A on the TP at all once the initial stock dries up. But the effective price differential is 6s to 1200s, or about 200 times, not 2 or 3 times.

 

Of course, if the actual salvage rate is better than 2 charms per hundred runes, then rune A is worth more. And if it's less, the discrepancy is even larger.

 

Now, if both runes have some decent utility, then sure, the prices may be more similar. But that's more a question of gameplay balancing, not crafting recipes.

 

TLDR; vendor trash runes are still vendor trash runes, except that you would lose money trying to actually vendor them. So, salvage trash.

 

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"OtakuModeEngage.8679" said:

> > The price to craft will still cost more than they currently cost to buy on TP.

> You're writing as if there was a single price in the past.

>

> Before the announcement of the patch, there were three values of upgrades: vendor trash, low-priced upgrades, and overpriced ones. (NB: "upgrade" referring to just sigils & runes.) A lot of people recognized this as economically problematic. The most desired ones were sometimes 500 times more expensive than the least-useful. Further, some (even vendor trash) items only dropped randomly, without any direct source. Most notable among these: the Superior Sigil of Notification. You could get as many as you wanted (even after Requiem armor) on the TP, but you depended on everyone else to list theirs on the TP.

>

> In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

>

> So yes, most upgrades will cost more, because they won't be vendor trash any longer. And thus the most expensive won't be 500x more valuable. Instead of funding a single coveted rune with 100 or 200 or 500 of non-desired runes, we'll need only a handful.

>

> The whole point of overhauling the system is to bring up the bottom of the upgrade market and tone down the relative height of the market's peaks (and perhaps even lower it absolutely).

>

> That said, there's a lot to quibble over regarding specific recipes. I feel there's an over-reliance on just a few mats and I'm not sure about the ratio of required items (especially ecto & T6 fine mats).

>

> tl;dr yes, of course prices of some upgrades are going up; that's an intended goal of the overhaul because it's going to (in the long run) decrease the relative cost of the most expensive ones.

>

>

>

 

Superior rune of Hoelbrook cost 6g... supperior rune of flock, which uses 3 superior runes of Hoelbrook cost 12g. Thus, since the previously more expensive ones require multiples of the previously cheaper ones to craft, then raising the prices of the preciously cheaper ones absolute raises the prices of the previously more expensive. This doesnt just 'bring up the bottom' as you suggested, it also inflates the top.

[perilisk.1874]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > In the new world order, every upgrade has a recipe. Every recipe depends on a common component and one of three shared components. Leaving aside some specific examples in which the ingredient choice undermines the changes (e.g. Super Hoelbrak runes, using the Azurite Orb which hasn't had a direct source in 4-5 years)... these recipes are similar enough that most upgrades are going to end up costing within 2-3x of each other, once the disequilibrium ends.

>

> I'm not sure how you get there.

>

> Let's say rune A and rune B have equivalent drop rates, that rune A is basically useless in any build, and rune B is very desired. Both salvage to and are crafted with Charms of Exemplification. Let's also assume that the recipes are similar, such that crafting either takes 3 charms, along with 3g of other materials. The equilibrium price for rune B is around 12g, due to being meta. The charms are worth around 3g each, since rune B is the main driver of their value.

>

> Now, if rune A has about a 2% chance to salvage into a charm, using a Mystic salvage kit, then it's actual expected value is around 2% of 3g, or 6s. Not that many people would bother extracting the rune or crafting it, most likely, so it's just a slight bonus to the value of whatever exotic has it (but much less than the value of mats, ectos, insignias, and dark matter). You won't see much of rune A on the TP at all once the initial stock dries up. But the effective price differential is 6s to 1200s, or about 200 times, not 2 or 3 times.

>

> Of course, if the actual salvage rate is better than 2 charms per hundred runes, then rune A is worth more. And if it's less, the discrepancy is even larger.

>

> Now, if both runes have some decent utility, then sure, the prices may be more similar. But that's more a question of gameplay balancing, not crafting recipes.

>

> TLDR; vendor trash runes are still vendor trash runes, except that you would lose money trying to actually vendor them. So, salvage trash.

>

 

Actually, it's a little bit worse than I was thinking before. As you said, under the old system where runes were randomly gained from salvage, you basically had three tiers of superior upgrades

* Tier A: BiS, expensive upgrade

* Tier B: Poor man's tier A. Not quite as good, but also much less expensive.

* Tier C: Vendor trash.

 

We already established that vendor trash is vendor trash (well, salvage trash), but let's say that rune A was actually the poor man's version of rune B under the old system. They occupy a similar niche, but rune B is just better.

 

In this system, you are not randomly getting runes, such that there will be similar numbers of A and B entering the economy just because. You are making a deliberate choice to craft rune A or rune B and bring it into the economy. They cost the same, going by the previous example, but rune B is better, so obviously you will craft rune B.

 

Therefore, the only value of rune A is to provide the charms needed to get rune B. That is, 6s. Well, there is one exception -- if someone is looking for exotic armor with a certain set of stats, in a certain weight, with runes that fit a certain niche, then rune A that drops on that armor might still be valued as the poor man's B -- but only in that situation.

 

Under the new system, there are only two tiers of runes/sigils: expensive upgrades that are BiS for their particular niche (which, yes, will probably have similar prices unless the mats other than motes/charms/symbols are very differently priced), and salvage trash.

[OtakuModeEngage.8679]

People are under the assumption that given sufficient time, more symbols and charms will appear on the trading post, thus making the runes much cheaper... this would be true if the sigils and runes relied on symbols and charms alone to craft them. But that is not the case. Other materials are required as well, and for whatever reason, ANet chose the more expensive ones to use. The prices of these other materials wont change after a few weeks of filling the market with symbols and charms, they arnt new materials that just need some time to stockpile at the TP. And thus the drop in the cost of symbols and charms alone wont significantly lower the cost of crafting runes and sigils.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

 

> I'm not sure how you get there.

>

> Let's say rune A and rune B have equivalent drop rates, that rune A is basically useless in any build, and rune B is very desired. Both salvage to and are crafted with Charms of Exemplification. Let's also assume that the recipes are similar, such that crafting either takes 3 charms, along with 3g of other materials. The equilibrium price for rune B is around 12g, due to being meta. The charms are worth around 3g each, since rune B is the main driver of their value.

>

> Now, if rune A has about a 2% chance to salvage into a charm, using a Mystic salvage kit, then it's actual expected value is around 2% of 3g, or 6s. Not that many people would bother extracting the rune or crafting it, most likely, so it's just a slight bonus to the value of whatever exotic has it (but much less than the value of mats, ectos, insignias, and dark matter). You won't see much of rune A on the TP at all once the initial stock dries up. But the effective price differential is 6s to 1200s, or about 200 times, not 2 or 3 times.

 

Excuse me.

So the stock of rune A dries up right until it's no longer beneficial to buy it for salvage-crafting rune B. In your case, its expected value is going to be 2% of the rune B's value. This is the equilibrium: you don't buy off the TP for 12 gold what you can craft for 3 gold. So, the difference is about 50 times, not 200.

 

Edit: Oh, I see, it takes 3 charms to craft one rune. Right, the number is closer to 200 then (though can be calculated more precisely when I'm bored, lol).