why nerf a class thats been weak at everything since it was created?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"lombomon.7268" said:

> I get the frustration about Necro for sure, but Abrasive Grit is really the last thing that Scourges/Necros should be worried about. the condi cleanse was definitely decreased, but keep in mind it is an adept trait. A 5 second ICD on that much might and a condi cleanse is reasonable for an adept trait, especially if you look at adept traits in other specializations whether it be on Necro or on another class.

>

> Again I get the frustration (necro has been one of my two mains since launch) but Abrasive Grit is incredibly strong for an adept trait, even after the ICD was added.

 

I think you don't get it. The issue is mainly the loss of freedom to use it. The scourge don't have that many way to gain or provide barrier, which made the trait output totally balanced or at least as balance as any aura traits from the elementalist can be (Honestly do you imagine ANet puting a 5 second ICD on traits like _zephir's boon_, _elemental shielding_ or _invigorating torrent_ because thanks to these trait you can somehow burst boon output with tempest? Even burst cleanse with trooper's rune and _cleansing water_? This is exactly what happen here to the scourge with this ICD on _Abrassive grit_). What the scourge lost isn't a few might stack or condi cleanse, it's the ability to burst these might stacks and cleanse whenever needed. Now by using this runeset, the necromancer totally shut down it's ability to support via this trait, this is where it truly hurt.

 

_Abrasive grit_ was balanced for the barrier output of the scourge until they introduced an busted effect on a runeset that output a silly amount of barrier. What infuriate the necromancers is that they got the short end of the stick when the issues with other runes were fixed on the runes themselves instead of being fixed on the professions that could exploit their busted effects.

 

If you add to this perceived unfairness the fact that the necromancer's community is sick tired of the silly design choices that the devs force onto the necromancers again and again leading to nerfs again and again, it's easy to understand that they explode on the slightest misgiving from ANet.

[DeceiverX.8361]

The problem is that it breaks the class in environments outside PvE.

 

People want scourge to be both a support class and a condi DPS class for a respective spot in raids, and the concept on necro is fundamentally broken in the PvP modes thanks to its potency in the PvP modes with boon denial, because boons are a hard requirement for all PvP builds since they do more than double stats from gear.

 

And please don't give me the tired excuse that more people play PvE. Most of the game plays open-world PvE where the builds literally do not matter. The only people upset about the class's numbers are raid players, which have one of the smallest communities of players in the game.

 

Not to mention, Irenio mentioned the rationale for why they added the ICD to the trait - so that it doesn't trigger on someone else's insubstantial heal while near-full HP/when you didn't want to force the runes to trigger.

 

Scourge is a problem because it's designed to do too many things, and elements of core necro are still essential for performance in the PvP modes. Even Reaper was largely destroyed in the PvP modes thanks to raid-favored changes.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> The problem is that it breaks the class in environments outside PvE.

>

> People want scourge to be both a support class and a condi DPS class for a respective spot in raids, and the concept on necro is fundamentally broken in the PvP modes thanks to its potency in the PvP modes with boon denial, because boons are a hard requirement for all PvP builds since they do more than double stats from gear.

>

> And please don't give me the tired excuse that more people play PvE. Most of the game plays open-world PvE where the builds literally do not matter. The only people upset about the class's numbers are raid players, which have one of the smallest communities of players in the game.

>

> Not to mention, Irenio mentioned the rationale for why they added the ICD to the trait - so that it doesn't trigger on someone else's insubstantial heal while near-full HP/when you didn't want to force the runes to trigger.

>

> Scourge is a problem because it's designed to do too many things, and elements of core necro are still essential for performance in the PvP modes. Even Reaper was largely destroyed in the PvP modes thanks to raid-favored changes.

>

 

The argument isn't about PvE it's about the game as a whole. I don't disagree with the fact that the necromancer's tools are strong in PvP because you are right. The problem is that a support traits have been killed for the sake of keeping in game a rune with a busted new mechanism. We are not talking about a "PvE" exclusive trait or whatever, we are talking of a support trait usefull in any game content which was balanced based on the amount of barrier that the necromancer could output and allowed a certain freedom of support. The thing that broke the balance isn't the trait but the broken effect of the runeset and quoting the arguable logic of Irenio's post isn't really convincing, sorry. They introduce a runeset effect that broke the game balance, the logic is to fix this new effect not on the thing which have been balanced up to now. Come on, "We chose to kill the trait to clear the place so that everybody can enjoy our new concept of gaining barrier on heal. We did this for the greater good, it hurt us but we will work on it and it will be better soon (or you'll eventually forget about it and it will be fine)".

 

Take any profession, take away from them some QoL for a fallacious reason and these professions will erupt into a riot. This is what happen tody to the necromancer. Maybe tomorrow they will do the same to the elementalist, the thief or whatever other profession and I'll support their complaints. The proper way to answer an issue isn't to remove QoL on something that was balanced before they introduced a mechanism that broke it and should never be.

 

Now we all know ANet and we all know that this loss of QoL will remain for a long time despite them letting us believe that it's temporary. To make us forget about this they will soon give us a meaningless lazy buff to something else (70% chance for a: _Nefarious favor_ now convert 2 conditions to boon instead of 1) that won't change the fact that there was a loss of fcking QoL. PvP player will feel that this meaningless lazy "buff" is to strong and will ask for a nerf (Increase _nefarious favor_ CD to 15 seconds in PvP), breaking another thing that will then be hidden behind another meaningless lazy buff... etc. This is how ANet balance it's game instead of fixing the real issues and they've done it for 6 years straigth.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Then the only thing should be to demand the rune removed from the game in its entirety, and nothing else. The criticism shouldn't be directed at ANet for nerfing the scourge but not just deleting the rune and removing all barrier-effect synergy from the game.

 

And this kind of problem isn't exclusive to the necro. This has already happened repeatedly with the thief. Daredevil downright replaced Acrobatics at release when they hard-nerfed Acrobatics and re-branded it as an elite spec with a set of gimmicks. Might-on-dodge food literally replaces the Arobatics traitline's vigor synergy for free and for all other professions with zero benefit to the thief since Endurance Regen is capped at 100% regardless. DE replaced en entire set of builds and made a ton of traits from core completely pointless, and then ANet also nerfed core's damage access because DE's was too high. Damage has been upped in unfair ways because of general powercreep like MBS which gutted relative performance in core with powercreeped defenses as well. There are tons of cases where blatant problems have been ignored in the wake of new features for nearly every profession. It's been going on since HoT and pretty obviously at that.

 

It still doesn't change that scourge is going to be forever horrendously OP/UP in this game somewhere because its design is absolutely horrible. Until ANet completely redoes the class it's just not possible to balance it.

 

But I know this community. People will whine until a design not intended to do well in raids has good numbers for DPS but becomes complete trash in the PvP modes just like Reaper, rather than realizing the mentality of feeling obligated to minmax time efficiency is more the problem than the numbers themselves.

 

 

 

[Nord.1492]

 

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

 

>

>This is how ANet balance it's game instead of fixing the real issues and they've done it for 6 years straigth.

 

I dont play anymore for about one year (maining necro since 2012) and iam really happy about it. The Reason is clear, constantly fcking up my fav. class. Reading something like "we put the teams together to balance this game faster" hyped me a while ago but.... naaaaaaah, i dont really trust it. :P I know you, youre a good man, to analyze this class and giving in almost every necro thread a good feedback makes you a strong fighter for the necro community. Cheers my friend. The reason i logged in to say this to you: man you look really tired and pissed. ;) Give up the hope, anet will never fix this class cheerio ;)

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Nord.1492" said:

>

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

>

> >

> >This is how ANet balance it's game instead of fixing the real issues and they've done it for 6 years straigth.

>

> I dont play anymore for about one year (maining necro since 2012) and iam really happy about it. The Reason is clear, constantly fcking up my fav. class. Reading something like "we put the teams together to balance this game faster" hyped me a while ago but.... naaaaaaah, i dont really trust it. :P I know you, youre a good man, to analyze this class and giving in almost every necro thread a good feedback makes you a strong fighter for the necro community. Cheers my friend. The reason i logged in to say this to you: man you look really tired and pissed. ;) Give up the hope, anet will never fix this class cheerio ;)

 

Thanks for the good word. Thought, it's bitterness more than anything. ANet's balance as the same effect on me as cofee... And I hate cofee.

[lombomon.7268]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"lombomon.7268" said:

> > I get the frustration about Necro for sure, but Abrasive Grit is really the last thing that Scourges/Necros should be worried about. the condi cleanse was definitely decreased, but keep in mind it is an adept trait. A 5 second ICD on that much might and a condi cleanse is reasonable for an adept trait, especially if you look at adept traits in other specializations whether it be on Necro or on another class.

> >

> > Again I get the frustration (necro has been one of my two mains since launch) but Abrasive Grit is incredibly strong for an adept trait, even after the ICD was added.

>

> I think you don't get it. The issue is mainly the loss of freedom to use it. The scourge don't have that many way to gain or provide barrier, which made the trait output totally balanced or at least as balance as any aura traits from the elementalist can be (Honestly do you imagine ANet puting a 5 second ICD on traits like _zephir's boon_, _elemental shielding_ or _invigorating torrent_ because thanks to these trait you can somehow burst boon output with tempest? Even burst cleanse with trooper's rune and _cleansing water_? This is exactly what happen here to the scourge with this ICD on _Abrassive grit_). What the scourge lost isn't a few might stack or condi cleanse, it's the ability to burst these might stacks and cleanse whenever needed. Now by using this runeset, the necromancer totally shut down it's ability to support via this trait, this is where it truly hurt.

>

> _Abrasive grit_ was balanced for the barrier output of the scourge until they introduced an busted effect on a runeset that output a silly amount of barrier. What infuriate the necromancers is that they got the short end of the stick when the issues with other runes were fixed on the runes themselves instead of being fixed on the professions that could exploit their busted effects.

>

> If you add to this perceived unfairness the fact that the necromancer's community is sick tired of the silly design choices that the devs force onto the necromancers again and again leading to nerfs again and again, it's easy to understand that they explode on the slightest misgiving from ANet.

 

Manifest Sand Shade (when traited with Desert Empowerment), Sand Cascade, Sand Flare, Serpent Siphon, and Sand Swell all grant barrier. That's plenty of sources. Also the elementalist aura traits all grant boons that only stack duration, not intensity. Also, granting those boons is their only effect while Abrasive Grit grants might AND cleanses a condition. Cleansing Water is a grandmaster trait and so not having an ICD and being more powerful is justified. Even before the Rune of Sanctuary and the Abrasive Grit changes, Abrasive Grit was incredibly powerful for an adept trait. If you want more condi cleanse and support power for necro/scourge, it should be placed in other traits (like maybe buffing the blood magic line a bit?). One adept trait in one trait line should never be as potent as Abrasive Grit was (and still is to an extent, that's a lot of might every 5 seconds!).

 

Again, like I said in my original post, I understand why it might feel frustrating, but Abrasive Grit was and still is very strong for an adept trait. For example, Cleansing Channel on Revenant is a single condi cleanse every 10 seconds (due to legend swap's CD) only on yourself. When you compare Abrasive Grit to things like that, it's clear that it is very powerful when compared to its peers.

[ZDragon.3046]

I think necro has some weak points but it certainly has its strong points too. That said usually any time some thing becomes strong and competitive to the point that that particular build is extremely close to some of the other top professions doing the same roles its usually nerfed down. Players who often play the top tier professions especially mesmers and warriors (no offense to any players who are not like this but play those professions) do not like it when something they are use to easily running over becomes strong enough to competitively and skillfully compete with them regardless of if its dps in PvE or fighting them in PvP. They simply do not like it and will complain that its too strong while ignoring just how strong they are on that particular profession or how frustrating it can be to fight them on that profession.

 

**I think currently**

 

Scourge is strong-ish but is designed poorly and clunky thus making it hit or miss. It will always be overly strong in some modes and stupidly pointless in others.

- It's always frustrating to fight unless you are purely high mobility and long range. Sadly most combat happens in melee ranger making them one of the most unfun professions to fight against pvp wise. Its been bugged or had busted interactions multiple times now which has caused it to gain several strikes of hate from other professions in the gw2 community. Its not considered good enough at being dps role or support role in PvE. Its designed seems to be an attempt to fix necromancers problems as it plays like its own profession more so than an extension of the core guild wars 2 necromancer.

 

Reaper has slowly been catching up and we can only hope anet intends to make this stick for the better and not simply rip it away in the next balance change.

- Most of reapers advancements have come from core improvements which is a good thing. It means anet is trying to improve core necromancer but sadly they are only making the elite specs stronger and not fixing core in itself at all really. Reaper is almost in a good spot to be called strong in its own right and with a few tweaks to it and not other parts of necro it could be considered in line with most other professions.

 

Core necromancer is in a serious hole. (its miles behind almost everything in the game aside from maybe core engi and rev)

- Anet has shown us that they are looking at core necromancer with the recent changes how ever we have run into a problem. The only way to make core stronger is to buff its traits, skills, and shroud. But as mentioned buffing the traits and skills only push reaper and scourge to new levels of power. This means the gap between core and reaper or even core and scourge never closes and in some cases the gap only grows bigger. The only way to really close this gap is to purely buff the heck out of core shroud as its the only thing that wont extend over to reaper and scourge. This leads to another problem though At what point does buffing the core shroud make reaper shroud inferior because there is a limit that can be crossed that would make reaper flat out pointless if the core shroud became too strong in terms of damage.

 

Dont get me wrong i dont want to be overpowered but there is a difference when you get skillfully outplayed vs when you simply cannot win or have very little chance against something else because its tools are too forgiving / rewarding and too accessible.

 

Because im a core and reaper fan boy though im more saddened over the necro community backlash that has come of this. People are not willing to think reasonably and a lot of the things ive read here lately i doubt will help solve any of our problems.

People are upset over the Abrasive grit change but once again this is a design problem, Scourge was suppose to be a support spec and it launched with very little support and a lot of misplaced dps. I suspect had its traits been built more along the lines of a support from the get go it this fix to Abrasive grit would be easily shrugged off. Its not about the design choice to put in this the new rune its the design choice that made scourge exist to start with. People are missing the point entirely and backlashing for all the wrong reasons. :cold_sweat:

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"lombomon.7268" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"lombomon.7268" said:

> > > I get the frustration about Necro for sure, but Abrasive Grit is really the last thing that Scourges/Necros should be worried about. the condi cleanse was definitely decreased, but keep in mind it is an adept trait. A 5 second ICD on that much might and a condi cleanse is reasonable for an adept trait, especially if you look at adept traits in other specializations whether it be on Necro or on another class.

> > >

> > > Again I get the frustration (necro has been one of my two mains since launch) but Abrasive Grit is incredibly strong for an adept trait, even after the ICD was added.

> >

> > I think you don't get it. The issue is mainly the loss of freedom to use it. The scourge don't have that many way to gain or provide barrier, which made the trait output totally balanced or at least as balance as any aura traits from the elementalist can be (Honestly do you imagine ANet puting a 5 second ICD on traits like _zephir's boon_, _elemental shielding_ or _invigorating torrent_ because thanks to these trait you can somehow burst boon output with tempest? Even burst cleanse with trooper's rune and _cleansing water_? This is exactly what happen here to the scourge with this ICD on _Abrassive grit_). What the scourge lost isn't a few might stack or condi cleanse, it's the ability to burst these might stacks and cleanse whenever needed. Now by using this runeset, the necromancer totally shut down it's ability to support via this trait, this is where it truly hurt.

> >

> > _Abrasive grit_ was balanced for the barrier output of the scourge until they introduced an busted effect on a runeset that output a silly amount of barrier. What infuriate the necromancers is that they got the short end of the stick when the issues with other runes were fixed on the runes themselves instead of being fixed on the professions that could exploit their busted effects.

> >

> > If you add to this perceived unfairness the fact that the necromancer's community is sick tired of the silly design choices that the devs force onto the necromancers again and again leading to nerfs again and again, it's easy to understand that they explode on the slightest misgiving from ANet.

>

> Manifest Sand Shade (when traited with Desert Empowerment), Sand Cascade, Sand Flare, Serpent Siphon, and Sand Swell all grant barrier. That's plenty of sources. Also the elementalist aura traits all grant boons that only stack duration, not intensity. Also, granting those boons is their only effect while Abrasive Grit grants might AND cleanses a condition. Cleansing Water is a grandmaster trait and so not having an ICD and being more powerful is justified. Even before the Rune of Sanctuary and the Abrasive Grit changes, Abrasive Grit was incredibly powerful for an adept trait. If you want more condi cleanse and support power for necro/scourge, it should be placed in other traits (like maybe buffing the blood magic line a bit?). One adept trait in one trait line should never be as potent as Abrasive Grit was (and still is to an extent, that's a lot of might every 5 seconds!).

>

> Again, like I said in my original post, I understand why it might feel frustrating, but Abrasive Grit was and still is very strong for an adept trait. For example, Cleansing Channel on Revenant is a single condi cleanse every 10 seconds (due to legend swap's CD) only on yourself. When you compare Abrasive Grit to things like that, it's clear that it is very powerful when compared to its peers.

 

That said if I follow your logic, shroud removal, plague sending and unholy martyr are horribly overpowered compared to the revenant trait. The specialty of the necromancer is condition manipulation, you expect him to be good at dealing with condition. The specialty of the revenant is whatever the legend specialty was, I think mallyx can pump up quite a lot of resistance with no CD but gated behind energy just like the condi cleanse output of the scourge is gated behind it's barrier output. How would the revenant's community react if ANet came up with a runeset that grant 2-3 might stack each time you gain resistance and out of the blue they end up puting a 5s CD on _pain absorption_ to balance things? It's possible for ANet to introduce an effect with no ICD on the use of an elite skill (let's say a juicy heal/barrier amount perceived as balanced for thing like _jaunt_ or _shadow meld_), how would revenant react if they put a 10s - 20s CD on mallyx elite to avoid puting an ICD on this new mechanism because "its ok to nerf the few"?

 

Maybe you think that stacking 20 seconds of regen, swiftness, fury and vigor is worst than stacking 8 mights stack for 10s but I do not. Might stacks, if anything, are the cheapest things in game. Every profession can self stack 25 might stacks with ease but not every profession have easy access to boons that stack in duration. Vigor is an extra dodge every 10 seconds, which mean that 20 second of vigor is like giving 2 dodge in this frame time. Each dodge mitigate an unlimited amount of damage, CC and even conditions. With the evade runes, each dodge can grant you up to a minute of swiftnesswith the proper runes in the case of a weaver properly traited each dodge can also grant a minute of regen and unlimited amount of condi cleanse. You've probably never seen vigor in this light, right?

 

That said, in the case of stacking boon in duration, you can easily disregard an ICD since refreshing them is also fine, but what about boons that stack in intensity? They stack in intensity to allow burst. If your output of those boons end up gated behind an ICD, you lose this concept of burst. You can even say that you go against the purpose of giving those boons.

 

See? It's better to compare thing that are comparable. The revenant's trait you quoted is a selfish trait in a profession which is not focused on dealing with conditions and leave that job to it's specialized legend. _Abrasive grit_ depend on barrier to support the scourge's allies just like Aura trait depend on aura to support the elementalist's allies. Boons can be seen as more or less valuable but no boon is weak and the more difficult it is to have a boon the more value you can give it. Might as a boon is the cheapest boon in the game, sure it was valuable when they released GW2 but now everybody fart might without even realising it. The trait would have had the same value with or without might. If barrier had been something ingrained into the core necromancer instead of the shroud, you'd probably have had as many trait in the core related to barrier and without ICD as the elementalist have traits without ICD related to aura.

 

Imagine a seemingly harmless rune bonus that cleanse/convert condition whenever you grant an aura. From an alementalist point of view it's perfectly fine, even from the lambda player point of view it's fine. However, cleverly hidden there is a trait out there that have the potential to grant aura at an insane rate. Yes, a guardian minor, _justice is blind_. Would you put an ICD on this trait which can be abused in large scale fight? Would you put the ICD on _renewed justice_ instead? Or would you put it on the runeset?

 

ANet passed a crossroad and chose to nerf what was balanced for the sake of something that created an imbalance. What other balanced thing will they nerf tomorow for this same reason? Who will be the next to be harmed because a new effect wasn't thought to be harmful in combination with a balanced existing thing? This is what hurt in this "hotfix" and how it was justifyed. ANet totally disregarded the purpose of the trait and chosed to nerf it's balanced effect to prevent an unbalanced unforseen interaction with an arguable new effect. They forcefully introduced a new effect and harm existing stuff in the process.

[Dabrixmgp.4758]

There has always only been one light armor class in this game and if you dont fart butterflies you picked the wrong one.

[lombomon.7268]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> That said if I follow your logic, shroud removal, plague sending and unholy martyr are horribly overpowered compared to the revenant trait. The specialty of the necromancer is condition manipulation, you expect him to be good at dealing with condition. The specialty of the revenant is whatever the legend specialty was, I think mallyx can pump up quite a lot of resistance with no CD but gated behind energy just like the condi cleanse output of the scourge is gated behind it's barrier output. How would the revenant's community react if ANet came up with a runeset that grant 2-3 might stack each time you gain resistance and out of the blue they end up puting a 5s CD on _pain absorption_ to balance things? It's possible for ANet to introduce an effect with no ICD on the use of an elite skill (let's say a juicy heal/barrier amount perceived as balanced for thing like _jaunt_ or _shadow meld_), how would revenant react if they put a 10s - 20s CD on mallyx elite to avoid puting an ICD on this new mechanism because "its ok to nerf the few"?

 

The point wasn't to talk about the specialties or merits of the different classes, merely the power of traits in different lines. Cleansing Channel is a weak adept trait, but I used it to highlight how powerful Abrasive Grit was in comparison. There are examples from other classes as well. Elementalist has Earth's Embrace with a 75 second ICD and Stop, Drop, and Roll (cleanses burning and chill from allies) with a 10 second ICD. Restorative Mantras on Mesmer only functions when you finish charging a mantra, something that doesn't happen often if you allow the ammo to recharge. Even Necromancer itself has Spiteful Renewal which is a single condi cleanse (and extra heal) on using your heal skill, skills that tend to have cooldowns on the medium-to-longer side.

 

Basically what I've been saying this whole time is this:

 

**Abrasive Grit was and still is strong for an adept trait. The ICD reduces burst potential, but overall a 5 second ICD on an adept trait this potent is not the worst thing in the world. If you find that necro/scourge is less powerful in its support role due to the change, those issues can and should be addressed by buffing the class elsewhere. Whether it be in Blood Magic or other Scourge traits or another traitline, adding more support capability there is the best way to go.**

 

Be upset about necro if you want, don't be upset if you want. The point is, Abrasive Grit being changed is not unjustified or horrible. In fact, it shows how core necro has failed to provide support options and highlights the need to bring core necro's support capabilities up to snuff. Scourge should compliment those aspects of necro, not have to provide most of the support.

 

I'm going to stop posting in this thread now. Have fun Necro subforum!

 

 

[geist.4126]

> @"Sigfodr.9576" said:

> In WvW scourge is still one of the strongest classes, and with the latest buff to scepter they went from being OP to even more OP there. Along with firebrand they are the bread and butter of WvW atm.

 

This may be partially true, but it's only for one reason and that's AoE boon corrupt. You bring scourges to fight the boon spreading that is now the state of the game. Scourges shine because they get carried by the defense from Firebrands, Revs and Chronomancers. The damage is nice to have but you can achieve most of it in wvw with Revenants and Eles.

That's imho the biggest issue I have with necromancers in general. They need heavy to support to work. In any aspect of the game except for solo world pve.