[Suggestions] Axe 2 - direct endurance refund, or faster animation

[Solori.6025]

> @"Crackmonster.2790" said:

> Axe 2 should go directly in the direction your character is facing, not charge towards your target. I have almost no control over it now it's frequently a big issue. Often i simply can't use it because i know i will just kill myself falling from some ledge as result.

>

 

I think that would honestly be worse.

Speaking from having this exact interaction on thief with staff when it was released.

 

> @"Gulbasaur.1865" said:

> > consideration cleanses

> That's true of all condition damage.

> > resistance

> That's true of all condition damage. No enemies are immune to torment or confusion (or bleeding).

> > teleports

> Okay, yes, but you, as a mesmer, have seven teleports at a time (weapon skill, blink, illusory ambush, mirage advance, jaunt x2 or x3) if you want to. Saying that others can do it too is not really an issue. Mesmers, if they want to, can get halfway across the map in sPvP in a few seconds, without the planning ahead that portals involve.

 

That's half true ( though I have never seen a build take mirage advance AND illusionary ambush, usually people opt for a stealth of some sort so it would be more along the lines of 4 /6 if you use all of your jaunt as it only has 2 in pvp , 7 if we are talking PvE ) Most classes however have traits or skills that remove or negate cripple all together. I actually can't think of any build that doesn't have a trait like that OR resistances to ignore the effects.

Secondly.

This is a melee weapon.

You aren't going to be running far away from someone unless you plan on not doing damage, in which case they can still hit you, and wont be moving far with cripple.

 

 

> > let’s not forget cripple and torment durations.

> Yeah, the cripple duration isn't great, but the torment duration is respectable. Also, it (usually - "usually" is a bit of a negative) drops a clone, and clones that can use ambushes via infinite horizons do more torment and open stronger shatters.

>

I think this was pointed out. The clone generation is often buggy and inconsistent.

It would be better to use another SAFER skill to generate a clone AND give you the benefits of said clone like the ambush and shatter, then to waste a dodge just to safely use a skill that animation locks you and leave you open to be punished. It doesn't do a lot of damage, is unreliable, and could be replaced with anything else.

I will agree yes, The torment is nice, we literally have better skills that do just as much if not MORE torment more reliably AND safely.

 

I would be happy if they redesigned the skill- took the whirl animation it has and threw it in the trash- and gave it a one time 8s reliable attack that spawned clones rather than what it has now.

It's not like Axe NEEDS and ammo skill

 

[Zenith.7301]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > I don't agree, while I'm no fan of the skill I do think it's a skill that stacks a lot of torment on multiple people and should be vulnerable. Skills in general do too much already and power creep does not fix power creep.

>

> So the problem is that you're conflating 'does a lot' with 'does anything well'. Those 2 concepts do not always line up, and it's important to keep them separate.

>

> Let's break down what the skill actually does.

>

> The skill essentially does 6 things: power damage, condition damage, control, movement, whirl finisher, and clone generation. Looking at each one will give us a better idea of how effective the skill is.

>

> Power damage: 1.2 over 3 hits, .4 per hit. This is obviously really low. The power damage this skill does is negligible.

>

> Condition damage: 3 stacks of torment applied over 3 hits. This is also obviously really low. In fact, it's comparable to the autoattack on axe, which is something else to note.

>

> Total damage output: Garbage. In fact, this skill does less damage than simply autoattacking for the time it takes to execute. Using this skill is a dps loss.

>

> Control: 3 seconds of cripple, applied across 3 hits. Minimal control at best. Negligible effect.

>

> Movement: This skill moves you forward slightly faster than walking, but with a precast and aftercast, resulting in no net movement benefit. Additionally, this skill is an animation lock that cannot be steered, and thus the movement of this skill is actually a **notable downside**.

>

> Whirl finisher: Whirl finishers are reliably unusable. This has a negligible effect.

>

> Clone generation: This skill will conditionally generate a clone after a delay. The clone cannot be manually targeted and only spawns if a target is within a certain range. This is notably less functional than most other clone generation mechanics.

>

> Ok, so let's add it up. This skill does less damage than the autoattack, has a useless finisher, negligible control, poor clone generation, and the enormous downside of putting you into an un-steerable animation locked movement. Yeah, the skill does a lot of things, but they're all bad. The skill is trash through and through.

 

It's basically a worse Leaping Death Blossom that doesn't even have evade frames.

[Crackmonster.2790]

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"Crackmonster.2790" said:

> > Axe 2 should go directly in the direction your character is facing, not charge towards your target. I have almost no control over it now it's frequently a big issue. Often i simply can't use it because i know i will just kill myself falling from some ledge as result.

> >

>

> I think that would honestly be worse.

> Speaking from having this exact interaction on thief with staff when it was released.

>

>

 

I completely disagree, dodges work similar to this, many games also witcher works like this.

 

Control > Tralala over ledges etc. It's super intuitive.

 

EDIT: should add, raptor, jackal works this way too. Not sucky to control that direction is it. Get it in game, straight upgrade big time.

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"Crackmonster.2790" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"Crackmonster.2790" said:

> > > Axe 2 should go directly in the direction your character is facing, not charge towards your target. I have almost no control over it now it's frequently a big issue. Often i simply can't use it because i know i will just kill myself falling from some ledge as result.

> > >

> >

> > I think that would honestly be worse.

> > Speaking from having this exact interaction on thief with staff when it was released.

> >

> >

>

> I completely disagree, dodges work similar to this, many games also witcher works like this.

>

> Control > Tralala over ledges etc. It's super intuitive.

>

 

Surge of the mists goes in character direction. Works just fine.

[Curunen.8729]

Regarding movement direction - in some ways I like that it always moves towards the target, because it can allow more fluid gameplay - for example if blinking behind a target you can just hit axe 2 and it will automatically run through them without having to think about orienting the camera first.

 

Sure there's benefits to each method but I'd rather there be a tick box option in the game menu where players have the choice to decide for skills like this if they want it to auto-move in the direction of the target, or be free moving in the direction of the camera. Better than forcing either option for players.

[mortrialus.3062]

I think Axe 2 is fine, amazing even, good at getting rid of aegis and stuff like Shield of Wrath and Arcane Shield, fast clone regeneration and cool down, cripple to set up Axe 3 and burst, torment for chip damage. Ammo and. Short recharge. With the whirl finisher its is even a straight dps boost in fields fire, etheral, and poison fields. Its long and has a long after cast but it can't be flawless.

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I think Axe 2 is fine, amazing even

 

hmmm

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> good at getting rid of aegis and stuff like Shield of Wrath and Arcane Shield,

 

It's a melee range attack, you may as well just autoattack.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> fast clone regeneration and cool down

 

10s cooldown on the skill.

 

iLeap has a 12 second cooldown, mirror blade 8s cooldown, phase retreat 10s cooldown, illusionary counter 8s cooldown + 2 clones.

 

So no, it doesn't have fast clone generation and cooldown. Additionally, the clone generation on it is highly conditional since it requires a nearby enemy, something that no other skill requires.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> cripple to set up Axe 3 and burst

 

Axe 3 is a leaping teleport. Cripple doesn't help set it up. Immob would, or a daze, something that prevents dodging.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> torment for chip damage

 

Less torment than the autoattack.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Ammo and. Short recharge.

 

Ammo is convenient, but again the recharge is not short. It's pretty standard for mesmer clone generation skills.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> With the whirl finisher its is even a straight dps boost in fields fire, etheral, and poison fields.

 

No, it's actually not. It *might* be a dps boost in an ethereal field vs largos twins, but that's highly questionable, and it's likely to send you off the platform anyway.

 

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Its long and has a long after cast but it can't be flawless.

 

Yep, and those are pretty huge downsides considering that literally every other part of the skill is trash too.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Pyroatheist.9031" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > I think Axe 2 is fine, amazing even

>

> hmmm

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > good at getting rid of aegis and stuff like Shield of Wrath and Arcane Shield,

>

> It's a melee range attack, you may as well just autoattack.

If you're trying to break a Shield of Wrath, for example, which is an extremely common situation to be in in PvP I might add, you need three pulses of damage. With Lingering Thoughts you can get these three pulses in 0.75 second where as completing an Axe Auto attack chain requires 1.5 seconds, twice as much time. And lingering thoughts sets up a clone for you in the process.

 

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > fast clone regeneration and cool down

>

> 10s cooldown on the skill.

>

> iLeap has a 12 second cooldown, mirror blade 8s cooldown, phase retreat 10s cooldown, illusionary counter 8s cooldown + 2 clones.

> So no, it doesn't have fast clone generation and cooldown. Additionally, the clone generation on it is highly conditional since it requires a nearby enemy, something that no other skill requires.

 

Lingering Thoughts is 8 seconds untraited, 6 and 1/2 traited and it has ammo to burst two clones if you really need it. Better than staff and sword. On par with Mirror blade, and mirror blade doesn't have ammo. And nothing competes with scepter. So second best of 5.

 

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > cripple to set up Axe 3 and burst

>

> Axe 3 is a leaping teleport. Cripple doesn't help set it up. Immob would, or a daze, something that prevents dodging.

In PvP Axe 3 can struggles to hit targets that are moving quickly like with swiftness. Cripple helps a lot with that. Guarantee? No but it helps set up Axe 3 nicely. And there are all sorts of nasty tricks you can do with it, like blink as you cast it onto a fleeing target. I can't even count the number of people I've managed to get the kill on as they flee with this.

 

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > torment for chip damage

>

> Less torment than the autoattack.

Yeah, like the entire twice as long attack chain when completed, sure.

 

>

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > With the whirl finisher its is even a straight dps boost in fields fire, etheral, and poison fields.

>

> No, it's actually not. It *might* be a dps boost in an ethereal field vs largos twins, but that's highly questionable

 

With a damaging combo field but especially ethereal and fire it is 100% a dps boost. Don't take my word for it, this is perhaps the most well informed experienced PvE Mirages and theory crafters. I think I'll take his word on this.

 

 

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Its long and has a long after cast but it can't be flawless.

>

> Yep, and those are pretty huge downsides considering that literally every other part of the skill is trash too.

 

It's fine.

[Curennos.9307]

https://imgur.com/a/ZgzPvcX

 

I cast Lingering Thoughts once and then immediately shattered to try and get the best log of the damage I possibly could.

 

The skill is good - balanced, even. Definitely doesn't need anything else.

 

Edit: Sage amulet, Adventurer rune, dueling/chaos/mirage. Pretty much this https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/mesmer/

[Curunen.8729]

To bring this back into focus - I can't comment on a high end pve perspective in terms of damage, will defer to Pyro and other's views on that.

 

From a small scale wvw perspective I like how axe 2 functions - let me reaffirm that to make it clear - actually in terms of the animation **it is one of my favourite skills in the game because of how beautiful the whirl animation is and the sound effect.** And I like the setup to and follow up from axe 3 (depending on situation and combo necessity). For a spec named "mirage" with visual elements taken from certain mystical folklore and culture, that whirl of axe 2 is exactly the mental image for an attack animation I'd have in mind - two thumbs up for the animators and artists who designed it.

 

Rather this thread was borne from things like vigour nerfs and anticipation of future nerfs to mirage cloak - where axe 2 relies heavily on being able to spend mirage cloak to cover cast in melee range. My concern was that nerfing mirage cloak any further or reducing dodge access any further would lift the curtain on axe 2 being an extremely vulnerable melee range skill.

 

Currently I am ok with it, but if any future patches nerf the dodge or access to dodge then it will have big repercussions on axe 2 in particular, at which point changes may need to happen. Depends entirely how they nerf mirage in future patches (and fix/redesign elusive mind...).

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Gulbasaur.1865" said:

> My biggest and only real gripe with Axe 2 is that it sends me flying off the ledges on Cliffside fractal if my target gets taken out. I shouldn't have a skill I am too afraid to use like the staff 2 backwards suicide teleport, the ranger sword backwards suicide leap, or the ranger shortbow backwards suicide leap. Edge awareness would be AMAZING.

>

 

That's been my negative experience so far, though not in fractals but open world. I've pitched myself off various ledges and such in PoF, and with my target in combat with clones and conditions, I can't exactly get on my Springer to get back to the fight. Very annoying.

 

Look, can't we just have a pink version of Warrior Axe 5? Whilrly-twirly axes + controlled movement?