Rune of Sanctuary & Abrasive Grit

[Fuyunet.8497]

> @"HardRider.2980" said:

> Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

Except it is in wvw zerg fights.

 

 

[Lord Huntsman.4691]

> @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> You keep weakneing scourges ability to support on what you tooted as a support spec. So many of the changes you have made are driving scourge , in competitive game modes, to be the supportee not the supporter because it cannot fend for itself.

>

> Returned the double cleanse of f2 to compensate for the loss of condi cleanse which you acknowledged. A tiny increase in actual might uptime , most likely the most common boon in the game, is no trade at all.

>

> Also if you guys do not address a similar interaction between rune of evasion, woven stride and cleansing water at some point in the future it will be disappointing.

>

> The likelihood is nothing will be done to really improve the matter and reaper will be nerfed because " it had one of the highest at and win rates last season". Further worsening the situation.

>

> The day you give the necromancer community a build it a spec that does not so incredibly heavily rely on being supported by someone else, like EVERY OTHER CLASS IN THE GAME, is the day you will gain their respect.

 

I totally agree with this post. Support was supposed to be an option for scourge, but it has been weakened and nerfed beyond reason so that it isn't a good option compared to most other classes. In previous wvw nerfs, the CD for shades went from 10s to 30s, which was a bit extreme - that almost seemed like a complete over-reaction to player complaints. We would like to see more data-driven incremental changes instead of nerfing things with a sledge-hammer. PLEASE MAKE SUPPORT SCOURGE GREAT AGAIN!

 

Also, kudos to providing an explanation of the current situation and your basic reasoning. Communication like this is HUGE in terms of eliminating player frustration. We may not agree with everything, but at least we understand what is going on. Good to know this issue is not done, yet.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > @"Fuyunet.8497" said:

> > So... The sanc rune is so op that you had to change how traits worked?

>

> Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

First, it isn't entirely true. Second, Abrasive Grit wasn't OP with other runes.

 

[Asur.9178]

While on the topic of runes and sigils; why were some runes and sigils completely ignored on this changes. Was it simply an overlook?

 

For example, under no circumstances are Deadeye runes better or unique enough to be slotted...not even a niche use - Scholar and Ogre are simply better in every single situation.

[shippage.1983]

> This situation goes against one of our design philosophies for Guild Wars 2: Seeing another player should not be frustrating.

 

Mesmers lol

[moonboi.1764]

> @"shippage.1983" said:

> > This situation goes against one of our design philosophies for Guild Wars 2: Seeing another player should not be frustrating.

>

> Mesmers lol

 

Can I just point out weaver and evasion runes. I would like to advise everyone to give it a go. Damn near unkillable. You delete everything.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048"

 

I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @"Tsan.6431" as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

 

Abrasive Grit:

Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

- 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage

- Conditions Removed: 1

- Threshold: 700

 

I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

 

[Dahkeus.8243]

Awesome post @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" . Thank you for taking the time to explain the reasoning behind the change. This makes a lot of sense.

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048"

>

> I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @"Tsan.6431" as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

>

> Abrasive Grit:

> Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

> - 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage

> - Conditions Removed: 1

> - Threshold: 700

>

> I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

>

 

OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

[HardRider.2980]

> @"Fuyunet.8497" said:

> > @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

> Except it is in wvw zerg fights.

>

>

 

Is this more of a "Mode split issue" or is it OP on other professions throughout the different modes?

[perilisk.1874]

> @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > @"Fuyunet.8497" said:

> > > @"HardRider.2980" said:

> > > Expect on other professions it isn't OP.

> > Except it is in wvw zerg fights.

> >

> >

>

> Is this more of a "Mode split issue" or is it OP on other professions throughout the different modes?

 

I'm guessing that removing conditions and proccing multiple might stacks with basically every hit, possibly several times a second, might be considered a little OP in any mode.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048"

> >

> > I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @"Tsan.6431" as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

> >

> > Abrasive Grit:

> > Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

> > - 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage

> > - Conditions Removed: 1

> > - Threshold: 700

> >

> > I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

> >

>

> OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

 

This wouldn't be a change to the runes, it would be a change to Abrasive Grit, which is only accessible at level 80 since it is an e-spec.

[perilisk.1874]

> @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048"

> > >

> > > I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @"Tsan.6431" as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

> > >

> > > Abrasive Grit:

> > > Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

> > > - 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage

> > > - Conditions Removed: 1

> > > - Threshold: 700

> > >

> > > I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

> > >

> >

> > OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

>

> This wouldn't be a change to the runes, it would be a change to Abrasive Grit, which is only accessible at level 80 since it is an e-spec.

 

You're right, I misread OP -- it is on the rune, not the trait.

 

But still, in core Tyria, you can be a sub-level-80 scourge. Don't get me wrong, a threshold was my initial thought for a fix, and I thought the same way as you -- leveling characters aren't an issue because it's an e-spec. But I totally forgot about downleveling.

[misterman.1530]

> @"Fuyunet.8497" said:

> So... The sanc rune is so op that you had to change how traits worked?

 

This. This right here in a nutshell. You mess up a rune, you nerf a trait. That's some special thinking right there.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > @"perilisk.1874" said:

> > > > @"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

> > > > @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048"

> > > >

> > > > I'd like to point you to a suggestion by @"Tsan.6431" as I think it is a good solution that would revitalize the original strength of Abrasive Grit without the broken interaction with Sanc runes.

> > > >

> > > > Abrasive Grit:

> > > > Granting an ally a barrier over the threshold removes conditions affecting them and grants might.

> > > > - 3 Might (8s): 90 Power, 90 Condition Damage

> > > > - Conditions Removed: 1

> > > > - Threshold: 700

> > > >

> > > > I adjusted the threshold from 1000, their original idea, but the thought behind it is that it would require larger heals in order to proc the trait via Sanc runes (each heal would be counted individually except for pulsing heals). With the threshold at 700, it would require a 3.5k heal in order to proc AG. It limits Necro's ability to self-proc this to Transfusion (with some HP investment), Dagger 2, and their actual heal skill, but still allows for interaction from healers. I think this is fair, though, as there shouldn't be a ton of trait interaction since Sanctuary Runes are fine without the AG interaction. The threshold could of course be adjusted, but I personally think this is a very healthy solution to this whole rune debacle.

> > > >

> > >

> > > OP covers this -- look at item 3. Among other things, this would break the trait for downleveled scourges.

> >

> > This wouldn't be a change to the runes, it would be a change to Abrasive Grit, which is only accessible at level 80 since it is an e-spec.

>

> You're right, I misread OP -- it is on the rune, not the trait.

>

> But still, in core Tyria, you can be a sub-level-80 scourge. Don't get me wrong, a threshold was my initial thought for a fix, and I thought the same way as you -- leveling characters aren't an issue because it's an e-spec. But I totally forgot about downleveling.

 

Meh I dunno, I don't think that should really be a factor, but that's my bias saying downleveled open world content shouldn't dictate anything. Lots of stuff doesn't downlevel well.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Dear Irenio,

 

Thank you for the very thorough explanation. I'm sure many considerations went through the balance team.

 

However, as a player, nothing frustrates me more than invisible ICDs because I cannot control it. When I play Healing Scourge, there are time when I want to spam barriers to mass cleanse (Slothasor) or pump up might, and now I can't really do it anymore. Invisible ICDs in a game so dependent on active gameplay like GW2 feels bad.

 

Having read some of the suggestions in this thread, I really love the idea to make Abrasive Grit to function off of Punishment and Shade skill use, rather than Barrier application.

 

Honestly, if the ICD isn't removed, I wouldn't mind if Rune of Sanctuary were just removed from the game instead. Things were fine up until now. I was having a blast with Support Scourge.

[The Last Hobbit.6492]

Can we get more of these kind of responses / explanations in future?

 

Thanks!

[RSwar.7809]

Why doesn't virtue of resolve passive trigger the effect?

[sanctum.5437]

Player A is frustrated or angry that player B screwed something up for them...

 

How about players of necromancers as a whole are frustrated and angry that players b,c,d,e,f... + devs screwed up everything on them?

 

When is enough enough?

 

When do you finally care enough about us that you revisit and balance the class to bring it in line with everyone else instead of just feeling it’s so okay to disregard the Necromancer players to the point that you feel nerfing us further into oblivion is the better choice then fixing a very obviously broken rune that quite probably should’ve never been introduced at all?

 

Want to speak about frustration and rage. This is a heaping helping of both.

 

To add to this is that we all have near certain knowledge from past experiences that you will never go back and fix this for necros- you will just sweep it under the rug and ignore it again.

 

 

 

And yes, let’s add that it’s nice you actually took the time to post something, but frankly, there’s no way you can think anything you spoke of justifies what was done.

 

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> This situation goes against one of our design philosophies for Guild Wars 2: Seeing another player should not be frustrating.

 

I know this is off topic, but literally every time I read this statement, or see an old video of a dev making the same statement I think about social awkwardness in fractals. Your absolutely right that players should be happy to see each other, so lets kill social awkwardness already.

[sniperman.1738]

Really you had to nerf a form of condi clear for scourge, you could of atleast limited it to PvP and WvW only but dang even PvE thats a bit far of a stretch and an over reach at that, the whole lets nerf necro even though it didn't really need nerfed makes no sense, the trait was not broken or over powered in its previous state as it was easily countered with the power build counter part, heck even a condi reaper was able to out weigh that scourge trait, so putting a Cooldown on it only really hurt scourges group play and solo combat play.

[Swiftwynd.1685]

Hey Irenio, thank you so much for at least acknowledging that this is a short term fix rather than a long term solution.

 

I was literally in the middle of writing this extremely detailed Reddit post on the matter, addressing all of the "reductions" to PVE Support Scourge's condition removal since its original launch in POF last year.

 

My main points of concern for Support Scourge right now:

 

* F2 Nefarious Favor - This was reduced from 2 to 1 condition conversion a while back in **all game modes.** Is there any slim chance this could be reverted in PVE to enable Support Scouges to have more reliable Squad-Wide conditions removal in Raids while not impacting WvW?

* F3 Sand Cascade + Abrasive Grit - Is there any way that we could fix Abrasive Grit later on so that it can be a *reliable* 10-player condition removal again? With the new changes, you can "use up" AG on the F1 and not have it available for 5 seconds to remove conditions.

* Alternatively, if the F1 could be changed to hit 10 allies upon use, that would also fix the above weird interaction with Abrasive Grit being "wasted" on a 5-target skill rather than a 10-target skill.

 

The above interactions makes it absolutely impossible to sometimes remove a critically important condition, such as the Fear on Slothasaur's breakbar, making it impossible to rely on the Scourge as the "fear remover."

 

If scourge is ever finally able to 25 might stack, regains is previous potency as a squad-wide condition remover, and fixes any clunky hidden ICDs, I could finally see it becoming an actually valued support beyond its good revive capabilities and barrier mitigation.

 

Thanks for reading, and here is that post if anyone gets bored and wants an in-depth analysis :+1:

 

[Gambit.9501]

Okay, that's cool, and understandable. But now here's a better idea:

 

**(6): Every 3 seconds, you gain a barrier with health equal to 20% of all healing you received within the past 3 seconds.**

 

So basically, instead of having constant barrier applications that can overexploit Abrasive Grit, the game stores a percentage of all healing you received over a brief duration, then gives its worth in barrier to you in 3-second packages. You gain your defense, Abrasive Grit is normalized, and everybody's happy.

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" said:

> We’ll be keeping an eye on it and watching for reasonable options that promote healthier, skillful gameplay for everyone.

 

If you wanted healthier gameplay this rune would have a more meaningful trigger that isn't "healing". Also, you'd put an ICD on it to not promote "Barrier Spamming".

Having a rune like this isn't healthy as it promotes bad gameplay and punishing a class for bad design isn't right on any levels.

[Eramonster.2718]

> (6): Every 3 seconds, you gain a barrier with health equal to 20% of all healing you received within the past 3 seconds.

 

Not sure about this one. Players will gain a bigger chunk of shield every 3 seconds. This will require the opponent to break through the barrier before the next possible tick (refreshing a new barrier) 3 seconds later. Atm you can still hurt through the barrier if the attack is strong enough, a chance for a decisive final blow.

 

> We’re aware of the current possibility to trigger Abrasive Grit’s ICD from someone else, but that should be fixed a bit later on.

 

Not sure if it's referring to Scourge stacking/blobbing. Popcorn ready for the fix.