sigur.9453 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > you should tell that to op, he stated in this thread that he dont want necros in his groups. or something similar. > > but true, i also have prejudices when a necro/dh joins, but it has nothing to do with balance or benchmarks. (but im always willing to give them a chance to proof me wrong) > > discrimination is a far to hard word for not beeing able to join into every group. > > To discriminate: to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality: > > When someone judge how you will perform based on the profession you play and reject you before even giving you a chance, what else is it if it's not discrimination? I won't describe a cat by saying that it's a furry beast, I'll say that it's a cat. Discrimination exist as long as you are rejected specifically based on the profession you play instead of your actual performances in the fight. > > One of my favourite example of discrimination is something that happened to me in fractal in the HoT era. I joined a PuG to clear my daylies as a dps condi chrono (something unthinkable at that time). We were progressing just fine until this revenant started to bother me with his "Condi chrono? Why don't you play a proper build? Where's your support? What are you good for?... Blah Blah Blah". The revenant was "meta" and performed poorly but the group was doing fine. I quited the group and found another group shortly after doing again all 3 fractals before my first group managed to even finish their own daylies. > > The morality is that despite not being meta I was compensating for the poorly played meta revenant. > > Here, a good song against discrimination: > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god damn game. also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). one is socialy acepted, one is not. i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) , not discriminated. yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > you should tell that to op, he stated in this thread that he dont want necros in his groups. or something similar. > > > but true, i also have prejudices when a necro/dh joins, but it has nothing to do with balance or benchmarks. (but im always willing to give them a chance to proof me wrong) > > > discrimination is a far to hard word for not beeing able to join into every group. > > > > To discriminate: to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality: > > > > When someone judge how you will perform based on the profession you play and reject you before even giving you a chance, what else is it if it's not discrimination? I won't describe a cat by saying that it's a furry beast, I'll say that it's a cat. Discrimination exist as long as you are rejected specifically based on the profession you play instead of your actual performances in the fight. > > > > One of my favourite example of discrimination is something that happened to me in fractal in the HoT era. I joined a PuG to clear my daylies as a dps condi chrono (something unthinkable at that time). We were progressing just fine until this revenant started to bother me with his "Condi chrono? Why don't you play a proper build? Where's your support? What are you good for?... Blah Blah Blah". The revenant was "meta" and performed poorly but the group was doing fine. I quited the group and found another group shortly after doing again all 3 fractals before my first group managed to even finish their own daylies. > > > > The morality is that despite not being meta I was compensating for the poorly played meta revenant. > > > > Here, a good song against discrimination: > > > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > , not discriminated. > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. so i have full legendary gear for my power reaper or condi scourge but my all exotic holo never get me kicked and i do less DPS on my holo because i am not yet familiar with holo rotation ( is it fair) i dont care if i dont joined there group but its a big wast of time to join then kicked without getting a chance and getting the usual learn a real DPS profession from toxic player this called cyber discrimination and that feels bad and i hope no profession will ever face that in the future Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > , not discriminated. > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. No form of discrimination is socialy accepted nor should it. Maybe it's less important in most of the eyes but you can't justify it by saying it's socialy accepted. Someone not getting a job because he got a tatoo or is dressed like a biker is someone victim from discrimination. This might not seem as important in your eyes than someone discriminated based on it's ethny, sex or sexual orientation, you might say that he can hide the tatoo or change to more formal closes but it doesn't mean that it harm less the victim or that it's "ok". The starting point of this thread is discrimination and like I said, victims here can only give example of what they "suffer" and try to ask for balance in order to shut down these behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Farkon.2170" said: > Just a TLDR for everyone not knowing what's going on in this huge thread: > **OP posts the truth about where Necros stand in Fractals and Raids.** > "Obtena.7952 " = Those teams isn't good enough for Necro and they don't know what Necros provide. > "Dace.8173" = Leeching isn't bad, they should let Necros in since they can do it even if they're not optimized. > "Farkon.2170" = Necros should have Endure Pain for a few seconds in shroud and have out of combat passive LF regen up to 25% since they have no invuln/block/extra evades/etc. wow you just summed up a 7 pages thread into 6 lines and that is OP next balance patch nerf incoming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > you should tell that to op, he stated in this thread that he dont want necros in his groups. or something similar. > > > > but true, i also have prejudices when a necro/dh joins, but it has nothing to do with balance or benchmarks. (but im always willing to give them a chance to proof me wrong) > > > > discrimination is a far to hard word for not beeing able to join into every group. > > > > > > To discriminate: to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality: > > > > > > When someone judge how you will perform based on the profession you play and reject you before even giving you a chance, what else is it if it's not discrimination? I won't describe a cat by saying that it's a furry beast, I'll say that it's a cat. Discrimination exist as long as you are rejected specifically based on the profession you play instead of your actual performances in the fight. > > > > > > One of my favourite example of discrimination is something that happened to me in fractal in the HoT era. I joined a PuG to clear my daylies as a dps condi chrono (something unthinkable at that time). We were progressing just fine until this revenant started to bother me with his "Condi chrono? Why don't you play a proper build? Where's your support? What are you good for?... Blah Blah Blah". The revenant was "meta" and performed poorly but the group was doing fine. I quited the group and found another group shortly after doing again all 3 fractals before my first group managed to even finish their own daylies. > > > > > > The morality is that despite not being meta I was compensating for the poorly played meta revenant. > > > > > > Here, a good song against discrimination: > > > > > > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > > , not discriminated. > > > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. > > so i have full legendary gear for my power reaper or condi scourge but my all exotic holo never get me kicked and i do less DPS on my holo because i am not yet familiar with holo rotation ( is it fair) > i dont care if i dont joined there group but its a big wast of time to join then kicked without getting a chance > and getting the usual learn a real DPS profession from toxic player this called cyber discrimination and that feels bad and i hope no profession will ever face that in the future > really "a big waste of time"? maybe just save some of it through not arguing about why you got kicked then. nanana, watch out, calling someone toxic is disciminating. no worries, worst case anyone can play any other profession anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > > , not discriminated. > > > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. > > No form of discrimination is socialy accepted nor should it. Maybe it's less important in most of the eyes but you can't justify it by saying it's socialy accepted. Someone not getting a job because he got a tatoo or is dressed like a biker is someone victim from discrimination. This might not seem as important in your eyes than someone discriminated based on it's ethny, sex or sexual orientation, you might say that he can hide the tatoo or change to more formal closes but it doesn't mean that it harm less the victim or that it's "ok". > > The starting point of this thread is discrimination and like I said, victims here can only give example of what they "suffer" and try to ask for balance in order to shut down these behaviors. Ever thought/Said one of the following things or similar to them: i don´t think i want to have to do with that person because this person, is listening no nickelback. is wearing crocs. just wolf.whistled another person. made a faschist gesture. littered the ground. looks better then you. does play another class in an mmo. writes random lists on the internet to make a point ........ congratulation, you are an evil person that discrimates. or wait, nobody cared?is this social aceptance? you get the point. while i agree with you and would say not getting a job because of a tatoo is in fact discimination, everyone not getting "the job" is also disciminated in some way, since the decission why someone not gets/gets the job is also mostly based on "feelings", since HR department haven´t seen any of them work "in real time". but we are getting a bit off topic i guess. balance has nothing to to with it, since necro is in the best place it ever was with various viable/meta/pug meta builds. yet OP sticks with her/his statment that no good groups are taking necros, which was disproved with evidence , because s/he thinks it does too little dps. which was also disproved with evidence, and it has no support spot either, which was also disproven. OP is blinded by evidence it seams. not beeing able to join every group is not necro specific, its in commanders right to exclude classes. i have been pugging with worse classes (power herold, power mesmer,.....) btw. i don´t know where you find those necro hate groups, i havent seen noone for ages, and i also never seen a necro joining a group and not getting kicked getting super exited about it. long post, who cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > > > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > > > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > > > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > > > , not discriminated. > > > > > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. > > > > No form of discrimination is socialy accepted nor should it. Maybe it's less important in most of the eyes but you can't justify it by saying it's socialy accepted. Someone not getting a job because he got a tatoo or is dressed like a biker is someone victim from discrimination. This might not seem as important in your eyes than someone discriminated based on it's ethny, sex or sexual orientation, you might say that he can hide the tatoo or change to more formal closes but it doesn't mean that it harm less the victim or that it's "ok". > > > > The starting point of this thread is discrimination and like I said, victims here can only give example of what they "suffer" and try to ask for balance in order to shut down these behaviors. > > Ever thought/Said one of the following things or similar to them: > > i don´t think i want to have to do with that person because this person, > is listening no nickelback. > is wearing crocs. > just wolf.whistled another person. > made a faschist gesture. > littered the ground. > looks better then you. > does play another class in an mmo. > writes random lists on the internet to make a point > ........ > > congratulation, you are an evil person that discrimates. or wait, nobody cared?is this social aceptance? > you get the point. > > while i agree with you and would say not getting a job because of a tatoo is in fact discimination, everyone not getting "the job" is also disciminated in some way, since the decission why someone not gets/gets the job is also mostly based on "feelings", since HR department haven´t seen any of them work "in real time". but we are getting a bit off topic i guess. > > balance has nothing to to with it, since necro is in the best place it ever was with various viable/meta/pug meta builds. yet OP sticks with her/his statment that no good groups are taking necros, which was disproved with evidence , because s/he thinks it does too little dps. which was also disproved with evidence, and it has no support spot either, which was also disproven. OP is blinded by evidence it seams. > not beeing able to join every group is not necro specific, its in commanders right to exclude classes. i have been pugging with worse classes (power herold, power mesmer,.....) btw. i don´t know where you find those necro hate groups, i havent seen noone for ages, and i also never seen a necro joining a group and not getting kicked getting super exited about it. > long post, who cares. it is necro specific not being able to join every group and you have very strong opinion for someone who dont play the profession and i dont "thinks" it does too little dps i know that because unlike you i play the profession what all you said was disproved with evidence and you show no evidence other than epi bouncing and i ll say that is an evidence that necro only good for epi   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 and for anyone thinking its just me or try making it all about me see the discrimination for reaper , scourge and necro in general from other necro players who in the same boat as mine           Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > > > > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > > > > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > > > > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > > > > , not discriminated. > > > > > > > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. > > > > > > No form of discrimination is socialy accepted nor should it. Maybe it's less important in most of the eyes but you can't justify it by saying it's socialy accepted. Someone not getting a job because he got a tatoo or is dressed like a biker is someone victim from discrimination. This might not seem as important in your eyes than someone discriminated based on it's ethny, sex or sexual orientation, you might say that he can hide the tatoo or change to more formal closes but it doesn't mean that it harm less the victim or that it's "ok". > > > > > > The starting point of this thread is discrimination and like I said, victims here can only give example of what they "suffer" and try to ask for balance in order to shut down these behaviors. > > > > Ever thought/Said one of the following things or similar to them: > > > > i don´t think i want to have to do with that person because this person, > > is listening no nickelback. > > is wearing crocs. > > just wolf.whistled another person. > > made a faschist gesture. > > littered the ground. > > looks better then you. > > does play another class in an mmo. > > writes random lists on the internet to make a point > > ........ > > > > congratulation, you are an evil person that discrimates. or wait, nobody cared?is this social aceptance? > > you get the point. > > > > while i agree with you and would say not getting a job because of a tatoo is in fact discimination, everyone not getting "the job" is also disciminated in some way, since the decission why someone not gets/gets the job is also mostly based on "feelings", since HR department haven´t seen any of them work "in real time". but we are getting a bit off topic i guess. > > > > balance has nothing to to with it, since necro is in the best place it ever was with various viable/meta/pug meta builds. yet OP sticks with her/his statment that no good groups are taking necros, which was disproved with evidence , because s/he thinks it does too little dps. which was also disproved with evidence, and it has no support spot either, which was also disproven. OP is blinded by evidence it seams. > > not beeing able to join every group is not necro specific, its in commanders right to exclude classes. i have been pugging with worse classes (power herold, power mesmer,.....) btw. i don´t know where you find those necro hate groups, i havent seen noone for ages, and i also never seen a necro joining a group and not getting kicked getting super exited about it. > > long post, who cares. > > it is necro specific not being able to join every group > and you have very strong opinion for someone who dont play the profession > and i dont "thinks" it does too little dps i know that because unlike you i play the profession > what all you said was disproved with evidence > and you show no evidence other than epi bouncing and i ll say that is an evidence that necro only good for epi >  >  > I don't even know how to respond to such bs. Or are you new to raids? Sry then, was assuming you are a veteran. Nvm then, get used to the content, what I said will start to make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > you should tell that to op, he stated in this thread that he dont want necros in his groups. or something similar. > > > > > but true, i also have prejudices when a necro/dh joins, but it has nothing to do with balance or benchmarks. (but im always willing to give them a chance to proof me wrong) > > > > > discrimination is a far to hard word for not beeing able to join into every group. > > > > > > > > To discriminate: to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality: > > > > > > > > When someone judge how you will perform based on the profession you play and reject you before even giving you a chance, what else is it if it's not discrimination? I won't describe a cat by saying that it's a furry beast, I'll say that it's a cat. Discrimination exist as long as you are rejected specifically based on the profession you play instead of your actual performances in the fight. > > > > > > > > One of my favourite example of discrimination is something that happened to me in fractal in the HoT era. I joined a PuG to clear my daylies as a dps condi chrono (something unthinkable at that time). We were progressing just fine until this revenant started to bother me with his "Condi chrono? Why don't you play a proper build? Where's your support? What are you good for?... Blah Blah Blah". The revenant was "meta" and performed poorly but the group was doing fine. I quited the group and found another group shortly after doing again all 3 fractals before my first group managed to even finish their own daylies. > > > > > > > > The morality is that despite not being meta I was compensating for the poorly played meta revenant. > > > > > > > > Here, a good song against discrimination: > > > > > > > > > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > > > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > > > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > > > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > > > , not discriminated. > > > > > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. > > > > so i have full legendary gear for my power reaper or condi scourge but my all exotic holo never get me kicked and i do less DPS on my holo because i am not yet familiar with holo rotation ( is it fair) > > i dont care if i dont joined there group but its a big wast of time to join then kicked without getting a chance > > and getting the usual learn a real DPS profession from toxic player this called cyber discrimination and that feels bad and i hope no profession will ever face that in the future > > > nanana, watch out, calling someone toxic is disciminating. do you know what discrimination mean i did not single out a player and told him you are toxic so saying i dont want to join a toxic group isn't a discrimination its like saying i dont want to join a group of killers and criminals isn't a discrimination towards the killers and criminals but when someone say i dont want to join necros that is discrimination towards necro and make them in a way same place as killers and criminals but in fact they are a profession that should be inline with other professions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 5, 2018 Author Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > > > > > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > > > > > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > > > > > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > > > > > , not discriminated. > > > > > > > > > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. > > > > > > > > No form of discrimination is socialy accepted nor should it. Maybe it's less important in most of the eyes but you can't justify it by saying it's socialy accepted. Someone not getting a job because he got a tatoo or is dressed like a biker is someone victim from discrimination. This might not seem as important in your eyes than someone discriminated based on it's ethny, sex or sexual orientation, you might say that he can hide the tatoo or change to more formal closes but it doesn't mean that it harm less the victim or that it's "ok". > > > > > > > > The starting point of this thread is discrimination and like I said, victims here can only give example of what they "suffer" and try to ask for balance in order to shut down these behaviors. > > > > > > Ever thought/Said one of the following things or similar to them: > > > > > > i don´t think i want to have to do with that person because this person, > > > is listening no nickelback. > > > is wearing crocs. > > > just wolf.whistled another person. > > > made a faschist gesture. > > > littered the ground. > > > looks better then you. > > > does play another class in an mmo. > > > writes random lists on the internet to make a point > > > ........ > > > > > > congratulation, you are an evil person that discrimates. or wait, nobody cared?is this social aceptance? > > > you get the point. > > > > > > while i agree with you and would say not getting a job because of a tatoo is in fact discimination, everyone not getting "the job" is also disciminated in some way, since the decission why someone not gets/gets the job is also mostly based on "feelings", since HR department haven´t seen any of them work "in real time". but we are getting a bit off topic i guess. > > > > > > balance has nothing to to with it, since necro is in the best place it ever was with various viable/meta/pug meta builds. yet OP sticks with her/his statment that no good groups are taking necros, which was disproved with evidence , because s/he thinks it does too little dps. which was also disproved with evidence, and it has no support spot either, which was also disproven. OP is blinded by evidence it seams. > > > not beeing able to join every group is not necro specific, its in commanders right to exclude classes. i have been pugging with worse classes (power herold, power mesmer,.....) btw. i don´t know where you find those necro hate groups, i havent seen noone for ages, and i also never seen a necro joining a group and not getting kicked getting super exited about it. > > > long post, who cares. > > > > it is necro specific not being able to join every group > > and you have very strong opinion for someone who dont play the profession > > and i dont "thinks" it does too little dps i know that because unlike you i play the profession > > what all you said was disproved with evidence > > and you show no evidence other than epi bouncing and i ll say that is an evidence that necro only good for epi > >  > >  > > > > I don't even know how to respond to such bs. Or are you new to raids? Sry then, was assuming you are a veteran. Nvm then, get used to the content, what I said will start to make sense. may be i ll believe you when i have access to your discussions page but i cant so that make be doubt you are a player like me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > > > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > > > > i realy hope you won´t face any discimination in RL, because this is laugable compared to other issues. its a god kitten game. > > > > > > also there is an distincion between desciminating for factors that are in ones own choosing (behaviour, music/fashion style, class in an online mmo) and factors one can not choose (ethnic, sex, sexual orientation). > > > > > > one is socialy acepted, one is not. > > > > > > i agree by definition you are correct, but it still sounds way to overdramatic for me. if they didn´t let me play in their group, i feel angry (I wouldn't care in fact) > > > > > > , not discriminated. > > > > > > > > > > > > yeah another reason why dps meters are a good thing i guess. happens. > > > > > > > > > > No form of discrimination is socialy accepted nor should it. Maybe it's less important in most of the eyes but you can't justify it by saying it's socialy accepted. Someone not getting a job because he got a tatoo or is dressed like a biker is someone victim from discrimination. This might not seem as important in your eyes than someone discriminated based on it's ethny, sex or sexual orientation, you might say that he can hide the tatoo or change to more formal closes but it doesn't mean that it harm less the victim or that it's "ok". > > > > > > > > > > The starting point of this thread is discrimination and like I said, victims here can only give example of what they "suffer" and try to ask for balance in order to shut down these behaviors. > > > > > > > > Ever thought/Said one of the following things or similar to them: > > > > > > > > i don´t think i want to have to do with that person because this person, > > > > is listening no nickelback. > > > > is wearing crocs. > > > > just wolf.whistled another person. > > > > made a faschist gesture. > > > > littered the ground. > > > > looks better then you. > > > > does play another class in an mmo. > > > > writes random lists on the internet to make a point > > > > ........ > > > > > > > > congratulation, you are an evil person that discrimates. or wait, nobody cared?is this social aceptance? > > > > you get the point. > > > > > > > > while i agree with you and would say not getting a job because of a tatoo is in fact discimination, everyone not getting "the job" is also disciminated in some way, since the decission why someone not gets/gets the job is also mostly based on "feelings", since HR department haven´t seen any of them work "in real time". but we are getting a bit off topic i guess. > > > > > > > > balance has nothing to to with it, since necro is in the best place it ever was with various viable/meta/pug meta builds. yet OP sticks with her/his statment that no good groups are taking necros, which was disproved with evidence , because s/he thinks it does too little dps. which was also disproved with evidence, and it has no support spot either, which was also disproven. OP is blinded by evidence it seams. > > > > not beeing able to join every group is not necro specific, its in commanders right to exclude classes. i have been pugging with worse classes (power herold, power mesmer,.....) btw. i don´t know where you find those necro hate groups, i havent seen noone for ages, and i also never seen a necro joining a group and not getting kicked getting super exited about it. > > > > long post, who cares. > > > > > > it is necro specific not being able to join every group > > > and you have very strong opinion for someone who dont play the profession > > > and i dont "thinks" it does too little dps i know that because unlike you i play the profession > > > what all you said was disproved with evidence > > > and you show no evidence other than epi bouncing and i ll say that is an evidence that necro only good for epi > > >  > > >  > > > > > > > I don't even know how to respond to such bs. Or are you new to raids? Sry then, was assuming you are a veteran. Nvm then, get used to the content, what I said will start to make sense. > > may be i ll believe you when i have access to your discussions page > but i cant so that make be doubt you are a player like me No offense, but I have no idea what your last 2 posts mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention. > lets start with meta Or let's not, because no one is debating **what** meta is; it's a side topic that has little relevance to the discussion. The point being discussed is that you are trying to join teams that want easy, optimal play with a class that doesn't give easy optimal play to those teams (we can avoid the term meta because you are so hung up on it). You have two options for that problem: 1) You can wait for a random game change from Anet to make necros more desirable in those PUG teams; that is going to take some unknown amount of time, completely out of your control or influence. 2) You can learn to play and team necro so their lack of desirability in those PUG teams doesn't affect you; that can happen RIGHT NOW and is completely within your control to make that change. > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"DragonFury.6243" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention. > > lets start with meta > > it means "Most Effective Tactic Available" like people stack renegade on dhuum or mirages on twin largos it is the MOST effective tactics > > but a Deadeye joining dhuum wont get kick although it not meta for that boss but its dps is very close so no one care > > but a necro joining dhuum is a problem you know why because it has 15-20% less dmg you will have to do more greens and the more necros joins the more you will have to do increasing the whole group chance of failure . > > Raids in this game is all about dps the more you have it the more you clear content faster easier with less mechanics and low chance of failure . > > (someone who dont know that either never raided or just trolling) > > here the discrimination against necro came from its not that people just hate necro or dont want to team with them for the sake of it . > > teaming with necro mean longer harder raid with more mechanics and increased risk of failure for the whole group . > > a difference between a necro that can team up with a group and a one that dont is that the first one have 9 player willing to carry him . > > and we all seem to agree that necro has low dps > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > necros DO HAVE LOW DPS > > While this is true about that, couldn't you just form your own raid? if you have done raids before of these types and have a commander tag, couldn't you lead the raid? > Also true ... except the problem is that OP is unwilling to learn how to do things that make his ingame life easier. I guess waiting for random buffs and complaining on the forum is just WAY easier than adjusting gameplay to get something desired for some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasoki.5180 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. Players should not adapt to a bad class design. Players should not tolerate that a profession is this infamous and essentially mocked in certain content. Especially in a game that splits skills per game modes. If somebody sold you a disfunctional product or a service you would expect them to fix it. You wouldn't try to adapt to what is a mistake on the side of those who are in charge of the product/service. Otherwise, only argument in this game would be "simply re-roll to a better class". Boom, all problems are solved. This game technically offers you a method to adapt to anything that is potentially problematic in its profession or broader game design. Still, that doesn't mean you should. People have payed money for this product. People have leveled and spent actual time leveling their characters. Least that Anet can do is make sure that their own creations have a functioning place in the game. Fundamentally, this boils down to holding a gaming company to higher standards of profession development. Not about players adapting to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 > @"kasoki.5180" said: > This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. Except that's not what's happening here; it's not an absolute fact that other players don't want it from the get go; it's a VERY specific scenario where players don't want it. This thread does NOT represent the experience of all necro players, specifically, all necro players that do not join PUG groups. Again, this isn't any different that say ... taking a Healer Soulbeast build into a PUG group or any other non-easy/non-optimal build. I mean, try to take a non-healing Druid build into a PUG group ... see what happens. This is NOT about having a high standard of profession development; this is about trying to play how you want in teams that do NOT want people playing how they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. > > Except that's not what's happening here; it's not an absolute fact that other players don't want it from the get go; it's a VERY specific scenario where players don't want it. This thread does NOT represent the experience of all necro players, specifically, all necro players that do not join PUG groups. > > Again, this isn't any different that say ... taking a Healer Soulbeast build into a PUG group or any other non-easy/non-optimal build. I mean, try to take a non-healing Druid build into a PUG group ... see what happens. This is NOT about having a high standard of profession development; this is about trying to play how you want in teams that do NOT want people playing how they want. Maybe its because I don't do tier 4 fractals usually, but I have yet to find a group that kicks me for playing a reaper, and I know im not the best player. I would argue though that from a raid standpoint, necromancers are still too niche, that they could easily be excluded from all raid content, and that is just bad. If I play a class, no matter what class I choose, it should be balanced as to be desired in the content.Having a particular build be niche is one thing, but having a entire class be niche to the point where its only taken in one is awful design. I think it also doesn't help that necromancers for 6 years experienced being the bottom of the barrel, so its time someone else took that instead of them, or ANET could put some more skill splits and mechanical overhauls so that necromancer can finally have the dps closer.If its 1k dps that can be achieved with a fair realistic output yeah sure, but having 30k be something that is barely possible or impossible due to shroud is something that just makes necros look like a joke. Now personally I would want realistically the second option or something closer to that option where classes are balanced close together with similar dps as much as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Well, I didn't want to go there knowing the level of argument it would cause with the OP. But yes, I have had my share of PUG's and my experience is also similar to yours; I think I have been kicked a total of once and it's because I didn't understand. I learned from that, hasn't happened again. Of course, I can't wait for the OP to come call me a liar or pathetic for not proving I joined a PUG with my necro with extensive video coverage, but that's just par for the course at this point. I don't disagree that necros aren't niche or too low DPS. The discussion here is how to deal with that if you want to team with the class. Maybe I'm hyper realistic but I just don't see Anet coming in and buffing necro with what it needs to make it desirable in PUG teams, considering the history of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"Farkon.2170" said: > Just a TLDR for everyone not knowing what's going on in this huge thread: > **OP posts the truth about where Necros stand in Fractals and Raids.** > "Obtena.7952 " = Those teams isn't good enough for Necro and they don't know what Necros provide. > "Dace.8173" = Leeching isn't bad, they should let Necros in since they can do it even if they're not optimized. > "Farkon.2170" = Necros should have Endure Pain for a few seconds in shroud and have out of combat passive LF regen up to 25% since they have no invuln/block/extra evades/etc. Way to miss the point. Yes, the OP posted a truth. NO ONE disagreed with that truth. The least you could do is get the points of other people correct as opposed to distorting them to make yourself look good. The point you just made is not related to anything I, or @"Obtena.7952" , were discussing. It's a cute trick but as equally dishonest in nature as the OP. Leaving out how the OP is being disingenuous and dishonest in his arguments is also a cute way to prop up your own point. You could make an honest, non-manipulative point. Or not. But that speaks more about you than anything else. > @"kasoki.5180" said: > This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. Players should not adapt to a bad class design. Players should not tolerate that a profession is this infamous and essentially mocked in certain content. Especially in a game that splits skills per game modes. > Fundamentally, this boils down to holding a gaming company to higher standards of profession development. Not about players adapting to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. You can hold ANet to a higher standard but this isn't a problem they can 100% fix. The problem is partly based on social factors involving prejudice and eltist attitudes. You can't balance around that. There is only so much they can do in that regard. If they were accountable in the fashion you speak of they would throw the games balance further out of wack and people would hate Necromancer players even more. Does Necromancer have design problems? Yes. But after six years you cannot really fix those without angering some of your players. That is part of the core problem. There is not a uniform agreement that Necromancer was designed poorly. There are players that 100% see nothing wrong with Necromancer and how it is designed or plays. The attitudes of the players on the forums don't trump the attitudes of people who don't post often on the forums. When the problem is not a universailly agreed upon problem you can only make so many mechanical changes before you start upseting people. In either case they will have upset players. It is better to stick with a profession they know a portion of the customers like than roll the dice and maybe make something that no one likes. For their part they have attempted what mechanical fixes they can do. Scourge was a step in that direction and it actually works. Actually Necromancer, as a whole, works in PvP and WvW. It has issues in PvE content. However, those are not 100% balance issues as they can complete the content. The reason they get kicked is due to the elitist attitudes of the PUG community. They really can't fix that. In that regard, this isn't a problem that only Necromancer players face. Skill spliting doesn't 100% work because in some regards Necromancer is mechanically capable. It's just not as mechancially capable as the PUG community wants. You can't balance your game on the desires of the PUG community though. This is a problem every game faces. > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. > > > > Except that's not what's happening here; it's not an absolute fact that other players don't want it from the get go; it's a VERY specific scenario where players don't want it. This thread does NOT represent the experience of all necro players, specifically, all necro players that do not join PUG groups. > > > > Again, this isn't any different that say ... taking a Healer Soulbeast build into a PUG group or any other non-easy/non-optimal build. I mean, try to take a non-healing Druid build into a PUG group ... see what happens. This is NOT about having a high standard of profession development; this is about trying to play how you want in teams that do NOT want people playing how they want. > > Maybe its because I don't do tier 4 fractals usually, but I have yet to find a group that kicks me for playing a reaper, and I know im not the best player. > > I would argue though that from a raid standpoint, necromancers are still too niche, that they could easily be excluded from all raid content, and that is just bad. If I play a class, no matter what class I choose, it should be balanced as to be desired in the content.Having a particular build be niche is one thing, but having a entire class be niche to the point where its only taken in one is awful design. > > I think it also doesn't help that necromancers for 6 years experienced being the bottom of the barrel, so its time someone else took that instead of them, or ANET could put some more skill splits and mechanical overhauls so that necromancer can finally have the dps closer.If its 1k dps that can be achieved with a fair realistic output yeah sure, but having 30k be something that is barely possible or impossible due to shroud is something that just makes necros look like a joke. > > Now personally I would want realistically the second option or something closer to that option where classes are balanced close together with similar dps as much as possible. > Sadly, I think it is impossible to balance so that all factions are desired in all the content. Eltist attitudes form in pretty much every game and they have a tendancy to excluse a great many people from doing content they want in factions and builds they enjoy. In my experince, once a faction hits the bottom, they tend to stay at the bottom. Shroud does limit Necromancer potential but once the game hit the wilds there was no going back. Even if they took the mechanic out within the first year of the games life they were going to face a major uphill battle in acceptance of whatever new mechanic they came up with. What would have made that more problematic is that there is nothing that promised a new mechanic at that point would have been better. Which is why I think they created Elites. I think the recongized that after a number of years there were some very clear problems that could not be fixed with balance updates alone. Elites offered them that chance to tinker with a profession in a way that kept happy players happy but offered a chance to get the other players where they wanted to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Well, I didn't want to go there knowing the level of argument it would cause with the OP. But yes, I have had my share of PUG's and my experience is also similar to yours; I think I have been kicked a total of once and it's because I didn't understand. I learned from that, hasn't happened again. Of course, I can't wait for the OP to come call me a liar or pathetic for not proving I joined a PUG with my necro with extensive video coverage, but that's just par for the course at this point. > > I don't disagree that necros aren't niche or too low DPS. The discussion here is how to deal with that if you want to team with the class. Maybe I'm hyper realistic but I just don't see Anet coming in and buffing necro with what it needs to make it desirable in PUG teams, considering the history of the game. do you remember thief's they were our low dps and unwanted buddies for years and now anet buffed them they are no. 1 dps most wanted on all bosses so the history of the game is not on your side if anet saw a problem they will act to fix it ( although it may take time ) but if you stand here and say that if a necro get kick from the get go its a L2p issue that wont help any one . what you did it to adapt to a problem that shouldn't exist same for the advice that i can lead my own group that is just adapting to a problem that shouldn't exist no profession should be discriminated against for any reason . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > Which is why I think they created Elites. I think the recongized that after a number of years there were some very clear problems that could not be fixed with balance updates alone. Elites offered them that chance to tinker with a profession in a way that kept happy players happy but offered a chance to get the other players where they wanted to be. same answer when you last brought elites into discussion > "yea exactly just wait for 2 more years and you will maybe join pug group without being insta kicked > but dont hold your breaths we all thought that POF will give use that but scourge keep getting nerfed in pve for stupid reasons like pvp (although we have some thing called skill split ) epi nerf ( some ele main where unhappy ) Abrasive Grit ( just for fun lets introduce something that will make scourge broken then nerf scourge again )." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Farkon.2170" said: > > Just a TLDR for everyone not knowing what's going on in this huge thread: > > **OP posts the truth about where Necros stand in Fractals and Raids.** > > "Obtena.7952 " = Those teams isn't good enough for Necro and they don't know what Necros provide. > > "Dace.8173" = Leeching isn't bad, they should let Necros in since they can do it even if they're not optimized. > > "Farkon.2170" = Necros should have Endure Pain for a few seconds in shroud and have out of combat passive LF regen up to 25% since they have no invuln/block/extra evades/etc. > > Way to miss the point. Yes, the OP posted a truth. NO ONE disagreed with that truth. The least you could do is get the points of other people correct as opposed to distorting them to make yourself look good. The point you just made is not related to anything I, or @"Obtena.7952" , were discussing. It's a cute trick but as equally dishonest in nature as the OP. Leaving out how the OP is being disingenuous and dishonest in his arguments is also a cute way to prop up your own point. > > You could make an honest, non-manipulative point. Or not. But that speaks more about you than anything else. > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. Players should not adapt to a bad class design. Players should not tolerate that a profession is this infamous and essentially mocked in certain content. Especially in a game that splits skills per game modes. > > > Fundamentally, this boils down to holding a gaming company to higher standards of profession development. Not about players adapting to a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place. > > You can hold ANet to a higher standard but this isn't a problem they can 100% fix. The problem is partly based on social factors involving prejudice and eltist attitudes. You can't balance around that. There is only so much they can do in that regard. If they were accountable in the fashion you speak of they would throw the games balance further out of wack and people would hate Necromancer players even more. > > Does Necromancer have design problems? Yes. But after six years you cannot really fix those without angering some of your players. That is part of the core problem. There is not a uniform agreement that Necromancer was designed poorly. There are players that 100% see nothing wrong with Necromancer and how it is designed or plays. The attitudes of the players on the forums don't trump the attitudes of people who don't post often on the forums. When the problem is not a universailly agreed upon problem you can only make so many mechanical changes before you start upseting people. In either case they will have upset players. It is better to stick with a profession they know a portion of the customers like than roll the dice and maybe make something that no one likes. > > For their part they have attempted what mechanical fixes they can do. Scourge was a step in that direction and it actually works. Actually Necromancer, as a whole, works in PvP and WvW. It has issues in PvE content. However, those are not 100% balance issues as they can complete the content. The reason they get kicked is due to the elitist attitudes of the PUG community. They really can't fix that. In that regard, this isn't a problem that only Necromancer players face. Skill spliting doesn't 100% work because in some regards Necromancer is mechanically capable. It's just not as mechancially capable as the PUG community wants. You can't balance your game on the desires of the PUG community though. > > This is a problem every game faces. > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > > > This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. > > > > > > Except that's not what's happening here; it's not an absolute fact that other players don't want it from the get go; it's a VERY specific scenario where players don't want it. This thread does NOT represent the experience of all necro players, specifically, all necro players that do not join PUG groups. > > > > > > Again, this isn't any different that say ... taking a Healer Soulbeast build into a PUG group or any other non-easy/non-optimal build. I mean, try to take a non-healing Druid build into a PUG group ... see what happens. This is NOT about having a high standard of profession development; this is about trying to play how you want in teams that do NOT want people playing how they want. > > > > Maybe its because I don't do tier 4 fractals usually, but I have yet to find a group that kicks me for playing a reaper, and I know im not the best player. > > > > I would argue though that from a raid standpoint, necromancers are still too niche, that they could easily be excluded from all raid content, and that is just bad. If I play a class, no matter what class I choose, it should be balanced as to be desired in the content.Having a particular build be niche is one thing, but having a entire class be niche to the point where its only taken in one is awful design. > > > > I think it also doesn't help that necromancers for 6 years experienced being the bottom of the barrel, so its time someone else took that instead of them, or ANET could put some more skill splits and mechanical overhauls so that necromancer can finally have the dps closer.If its 1k dps that can be achieved with a fair realistic output yeah sure, but having 30k be something that is barely possible or impossible due to shroud is something that just makes necros look like a joke. > > > > Now personally I would want realistically the second option or something closer to that option where classes are balanced close together with similar dps as much as possible. > > > > Sadly, I think it is impossible to balance so that all factions are desired in all the content. Eltist attitudes form in pretty much every game and they have a tendancy to excluse a great many people from doing content they want in factions and builds they enjoy. In my experince, once a faction hits the bottom, they tend to stay at the bottom. Shroud does limit Necromancer potential but once the game hit the wilds there was no going back. Even if they took the mechanic out within the first year of the games life they were going to face a major uphill battle in acceptance of whatever new mechanic they came up with. What would have made that more problematic is that there is nothing that promised a new mechanic at that point would have been better. > > Which is why I think they created Elites. I think the recongized that after a number of years there were some very clear problems that could not be fixed with balance updates alone. Elites offered them that chance to tinker with a profession in a way that kept happy players happy but offered a chance to get the other players where they wanted to be. If they can fix thief dps and a new elite spec can have viable dps, shouldn't it be possible to create a new elite spec that is on par with every other spec? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > NO ONE disagreed with that truth , the OP is being disingenuous and dishonest in his arguments can you till me what the disingenuous and dishonest other than i play necro please explain did necro joined a group then later he get kicked or kick as soon as he joined the LFG           Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sigur.9453 Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 mhm, must be hacks. one for disguising as another class, and one for increasing the dps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"kasoki.5180" said: > > This is really not a L2P issue. If a class is designed in such a way that other players don't want it from the get go its a developer's problem and issue on their part. Not on community or individual players who play the said profession. > > VERY specific scenario where players don't want it. This thread does NOT represent the experience of all necro players, specifically, all necro players that do not join PUG groups. i know you ll say these words so i did reach out to other necros and they accepted to share some images so see if it VERY specific scenario or thread does NOT represent the experience of all necro players           Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFury.6243 Posted December 6, 2018 Author Share Posted December 6, 2018 > @"sigur.9453" said: > > > mhm, must be hacks. > one for disguising as another class, and one for increasing the dps i just saw that so its YouTube after all and they know that he is teapot LMAO and what a nice evidence to show that reaper can join a training group i did say to teapot many times before the release of W6 if you truly support necro how about you take your necro to your world first clear for W6 and he ignore that what can you say about Anet partner do you want to see teapot say the truth see this at 1:22:30 "at the end of the day a necro cant compete with raw dps output of these power classes at vale guardian all its good at is during the split phases " and what a nice video necro only been used for epi bouncing which was nerfed and only effective in limited times and anet consider epi bounce as an exploit they tried to destroy it last balance patch but ended up just nerfing epi by 50% (bounce by 75%) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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