thank god we have player that allow necromancer in end game content

[Axl.8924]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > @"Farkon.2170" said:

> > > > > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd.

> > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4

> > > > > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class.

> > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4

> > > > >

> > > > > On the sPvP side of problems:*

> > > > > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!.

> > > > > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback.

> > > > > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it

> > > > > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility.

> > > > > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar.

> > > > > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well.

> > > > > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential.

> > > > > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options.

> > > > > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table.

> > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > If you can reach Plat with Mesmer/Mirage but struggle with Necromancer then to some extent it is an issue of learning to play the profession. Also, Necromancer isn't the only one that gets hunted like a dog. A guildmate asked me to switch from playing Dragonhunter to Firebrand (for the first time) and attention was focused on me to an absurd degree. Part of the reason why Necromancer gets hunted down so heavily in PvP is because Scourge is a fairly strong build and can wreck peoples day if they don't respond to it correctly. So rather than having to wade through condi cleanses people just opt to kill it. It is the nature of PvP that certain professions and Elites gain far more attention than others. If you don't enjoy being hunted down like a dog then you shouldn't play Necromancer. People hunt it down because it can be effective. Despite any claims that it sucks in PvP if it truly sucked it wouldn't be a high priority target. I typically play Dragonhunter this season and Dragonhunter is not a high priority target and as such, I don't draw nearly as much attention as I did when I played Firebrand, because Firebrand is a high priority target that can ruin peoples day. Deadeye is also something that people tend to hunt down like a dog.

> > > >

> > > > Also, not being able to 1v1 is not a bad thing. Dueling in PvP, in this game at least, is a secondary concern to maintain control of nodes. I've won games where I didn't win a single duel but still was the top scorer on Offense and Defense. If dueling is your thing then you have to stick with a profession or Elite that is geared towards that. It is the case that not everything in PvP is meant to be a 1v1 dueler. This isn't an issue unique to Necromancer. Elementalist (both Weaver and Tempest) are not good duelers. Power Herald is a +1 and can fold real fast in a duel, especially if it becomes protracted. The PvP experience is simply not designed around the idea that everyone needs to be a dueler. Designing some professions in such a way as to not be duelers helps to make sure that the teams have a bit of diversity in capabilities that supports how matches are won. You could be the best dueler in the game and you can still lose the match if you aren't actually doing what is required to win a match. I've seen it happen plenty of times, both as an aspect of other people on my team and as something an opposing team did. However, being bad a dueling doesn't render Necromancer as moot as it has a solid support role in PvP.

> > > >

> > > > A lot of the side problems you list are only issues when you try to play PvP in a fashion the profession or Elite was not designed to do in the first place. One of the things I notice a lot is people really do have a problem accepting what something is good at doing vs the flavor of what they want to play and how they want to play. I see it with plenty of other professions. There is a lot of love for Revenant, as an example, and some of those folks who love the concept of Revenant hate how it is played because how it actually works is very different from the flavor that they adore so much.

> > > >

> > > > With that said, Repear, when played to its strengths does very well in PvP. It can also do very well in Raids. You just need to know how to find groups. [As for WoW](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760896334 "As for WoW"), WoW [has it's ](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623522336 "has it's ")own [balance issues](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623442327 "balance issues") and not everything is viable there. Their forums have [plenty of threads](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767608963 "plenty of threads") that complain about the [same balance issues](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759637242 "same balance issues") that [happen here](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762046841 "happen here").

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible.

> > > > >

> > > > > In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I'm of the opinion that balance is a myth that we tell ourselves when we feel bad about losing. Even WoW, with the Holy Trinity, still has balancing issues that people get very upset over. Since balance is an impossible thing to reach I think what really should be strived for is reducing the amount of imbalance as much as possible. Just because balance cannot be acheived doesn't mean the game needs to be severally out of alignment. In that regard I don't think ArenaNet is worse at it than other games and companies (I've seen complaints on this forum express on other games forums, for instance. Right down to the assumption that the balance team is incompetent or stupid).

> > > >

> > > > In regards to Necromancer, I think due to some of the design flaws that the profession has, balancing it to a level that makes most people happy is a bit harder than some of the professions (Though not all of them. I'm also of the opinion that the sheer number of weapon skills for Elementalist makes balancing that profession a nightmare). I also think the design flaws it has prevents it from being all things to every Necromancer players. So for example, I find the odds Necromancer being a good 1v1 dueler as opposed to a good +1 support are small. Though I do feel that Elite specs provide some hope. Due to the fact that you can take more chances with the mechanics on an Elite spec it may be possible to at least design an Elite spec that gets Necromancer to the place where some people want it to go without trashing Necromancer as it currently stands so that the people who currently enjoy it as is are also happy. I find Scourge to be a promising sign that experimitation with with the Shroud mechanic can yield posistive results.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > "balance is a myth"

> > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game

> > > and what are the reason for not allowing the necro as a profession to have a good DPS in PvE and we have split???

> > > some balance change from PvP and WvW affected scourge in PvE (and we have something called split) here some examples

> > > -0.5 delay on all scourge F skills (this make it harder to use barrier to mitigate some immediate damage thus restricting scourge ability to support)

> > > -[Dhuumfire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire "Dhuumfire") the 1 second icd (such burst needed in instant content like CM 99 and 100 fractal and some raid)

> > > -[Nefarious Favor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nefarious_Favor "Nefarious Favor") split this skill to its original design (this make scourge more support)

> > > what are the reason for that to have them in PvE???

> >

> > Because of the perceived unfairness of having shroud that absorbs more health. Like I said:If we get more power, people will cry because necros would have a advantage against other players in roaming, and perceive that to be overpowered. After all, we got more power now, and combine more power with survivability, and you have a recipe for disaster. Plus reaper does have aoes. Could you imagine a reaper going into shroud having it last 15 and up seconds and having it do the damage it does now? yeah you would have a lot of non necros crying, especially all the elementalists who are having trouble winning right now.

>

> what make you think that i want a buff necro in PvP and WvW necro is good here but i want the buff in PvE i mean we have split after all

 

I didn't say you wanted to buff necros in pvp and WVW, I am just pointing out that players would get angry at necros if they could do the dps that other classes could, but with the survivability of shroud, because it would overlap in pvp and WVW.

 

You would also gain a lot more benefit in pve to the point where you might have the damage of a elementalist, but with way more survivability in pve.

 

How would you balance lets say necro being strong in pve without overlapping in pvp too much? The reason that Anet took away so much shroud duration, is because they knew it would be a problem in pvp and wvw as it would overlap too much.

 

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > @"Farkon.2170" said:

> > > > > > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd.

> > > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4

> > > > > > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class.

> > > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the sPvP side of problems:*

> > > > > > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!.

> > > > > > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback.

> > > > > > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it

> > > > > > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility.

> > > > > > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar.

> > > > > > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well.

> > > > > > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential.

> > > > > > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options.

> > > > > > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table.

> > > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If you can reach Plat with Mesmer/Mirage but struggle with Necromancer then to some extent it is an issue of learning to play the profession. Also, Necromancer isn't the only one that gets hunted like a dog. A guildmate asked me to switch from playing Dragonhunter to Firebrand (for the first time) and attention was focused on me to an absurd degree. Part of the reason why Necromancer gets hunted down so heavily in PvP is because Scourge is a fairly strong build and can wreck peoples day if they don't respond to it correctly. So rather than having to wade through condi cleanses people just opt to kill it. It is the nature of PvP that certain professions and Elites gain far more attention than others. If you don't enjoy being hunted down like a dog then you shouldn't play Necromancer. People hunt it down because it can be effective. Despite any claims that it sucks in PvP if it truly sucked it wouldn't be a high priority target. I typically play Dragonhunter this season and Dragonhunter is not a high priority target and as such, I don't draw nearly as much attention as I did when I played Firebrand, because Firebrand is a high priority target that can ruin peoples day. Deadeye is also something that people tend to hunt down like a dog.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, not being able to 1v1 is not a bad thing. Dueling in PvP, in this game at least, is a secondary concern to maintain control of nodes. I've won games where I didn't win a single duel but still was the top scorer on Offense and Defense. If dueling is your thing then you have to stick with a profession or Elite that is geared towards that. It is the case that not everything in PvP is meant to be a 1v1 dueler. This isn't an issue unique to Necromancer. Elementalist (both Weaver and Tempest) are not good duelers. Power Herald is a +1 and can fold real fast in a duel, especially if it becomes protracted. The PvP experience is simply not designed around the idea that everyone needs to be a dueler. Designing some professions in such a way as to not be duelers helps to make sure that the teams have a bit of diversity in capabilities that supports how matches are won. You could be the best dueler in the game and you can still lose the match if you aren't actually doing what is required to win a match. I've seen it happen plenty of times, both as an aspect of other people on my team and as something an opposing team did. However, being bad a dueling doesn't render Necromancer as moot as it has a solid support role in PvP.

> > > > >

> > > > > A lot of the side problems you list are only issues when you try to play PvP in a fashion the profession or Elite was not designed to do in the first place. One of the things I notice a lot is people really do have a problem accepting what something is good at doing vs the flavor of what they want to play and how they want to play. I see it with plenty of other professions. There is a lot of love for Revenant, as an example, and some of those folks who love the concept of Revenant hate how it is played because how it actually works is very different from the flavor that they adore so much.

> > > > >

> > > > > With that said, Repear, when played to its strengths does very well in PvP. It can also do very well in Raids. You just need to know how to find groups. [As for WoW](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760896334 "As for WoW"), WoW [has it's ](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623522336 "has it's ")own [balance issues](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623442327 "balance issues") and not everything is viable there. Their forums have [plenty of threads](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767608963 "plenty of threads") that complain about the [same balance issues](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759637242 "same balance issues") that [happen here](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762046841 "happen here").

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm of the opinion that balance is a myth that we tell ourselves when we feel bad about losing. Even WoW, with the Holy Trinity, still has balancing issues that people get very upset over. Since balance is an impossible thing to reach I think what really should be strived for is reducing the amount of imbalance as much as possible. Just because balance cannot be acheived doesn't mean the game needs to be severally out of alignment. In that regard I don't think ArenaNet is worse at it than other games and companies (I've seen complaints on this forum express on other games forums, for instance. Right down to the assumption that the balance team is incompetent or stupid).

> > > > >

> > > > > In regards to Necromancer, I think due to some of the design flaws that the profession has, balancing it to a level that makes most people happy is a bit harder than some of the professions (Though not all of them. I'm also of the opinion that the sheer number of weapon skills for Elementalist makes balancing that profession a nightmare). I also think the design flaws it has prevents it from being all things to every Necromancer players. So for example, I find the odds Necromancer being a good 1v1 dueler as opposed to a good +1 support are small. Though I do feel that Elite specs provide some hope. Due to the fact that you can take more chances with the mechanics on an Elite spec it may be possible to at least design an Elite spec that gets Necromancer to the place where some people want it to go without trashing Necromancer as it currently stands so that the people who currently enjoy it as is are also happy. I find Scourge to be a promising sign that experimitation with with the Shroud mechanic can yield posistive results.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > "balance is a myth"

> > > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game

> > > > and what are the reason for not allowing the necro as a profession to have a good DPS in PvE and we have split???

> > > > some balance change from PvP and WvW affected scourge in PvE (and we have something called split) here some examples

> > > > -0.5 delay on all scourge F skills (this make it harder to use barrier to mitigate some immediate damage thus restricting scourge ability to support)

> > > > -[Dhuumfire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire "Dhuumfire") the 1 second icd (such burst needed in instant content like CM 99 and 100 fractal and some raid)

> > > > -[Nefarious Favor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nefarious_Favor "Nefarious Favor") split this skill to its original design (this make scourge more support)

> > > > what are the reason for that to have them in PvE???

> > >

> > > Because of the perceived unfairness of having shroud that absorbs more health. Like I said:If we get more power, people will cry because necros would have a advantage against other players in roaming, and perceive that to be overpowered. After all, we got more power now, and combine more power with survivability, and you have a recipe for disaster. Plus reaper does have aoes. Could you imagine a reaper going into shroud having it last 15 and up seconds and having it do the damage it does now? yeah you would have a lot of non necros crying, especially all the elementalists who are having trouble winning right now.

> >

> > what make you think that i want a buff necro in PvP and WvW necro is good here but i want the buff in PvE i mean we have split after all

>

> I didn't say you wanted to buff necros in pvp and WVW, I am just pointing out that players would get angry at necros if they could do the dps that other classes could, but with the survivability of shroud, because it would overlap in pvp and WVW.

>

> You would also gain a lot more benefit in pve to the point where you might have the damage of a elementalist, but with way more survivability in pve.

>

> How would you balance lets say necro being strong in pve without overlapping in pvp too much? The reason that Anet took away so much shroud duration, is because they knew it would be a problem in pvp and wvw as it would overlap too much.

>

I agree

I know all that but we have something called skill splits

And with skill split you won't have an over lap

Each game mode have it's build ,gear,rotaion and play style we can't say necro in PvP is op thus we need to nerf it in all game mode when necro in pve have the lowest dps and vice versa

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue)

> > > > > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents

> > > >

> > > > No, you don't get that all the time

> > > you really like to tell people what to do , say and think and if you are like that ingame you ll be on my block list and when i say something i mean it unlike you when you say i play necro in end game mode and refuse to show evidence

> >

> > I'm not telling anyone what to do or say or think ... but I got no problem telling you why what you do, say or think doesn't work with how the game is **currently** designed. FACT: You **could** get a team as a necro, you just don't want it bad enough. You want it handed to you like you are entitled to it.

> >

> > All this back and forth is not just to argue with you for fun ... it's so we can demonstrate, as a community, that things we desire and ask for are sensible with the good of the game in mind. That's really important if you understand how devs interact with the community (or why they don't).

> >

> > You think it's OK for you to say something and it's taken at face value and meaningful .... but when anyone else says something you don't agree with, you make specific and semi-ridiculous requests for things with the premise that if they don't provide them, just are just liars. That's a very disingenuous way to have a discussion with people.

> >

> > > > Now, the ACTUAL DPS a person can execute with a profession and a specific build .. that IS dependent on knowing how to play. But make sure you understand the difference between what the theoretical and actual DPS outputs are based on.

> > > and this make me laugh so hard because the "theoretical" DPS of the necro is less than the lowest "actual" DPS of any other profession and do you know what even funnier is that their is no good reason for that

> >

> > Saying that you have been told that a profession doesn't have DPS because people don't know how to play is a half truth; The DPS ceiling of a class has NOTHING to do with how someone plays; that's a purely academic limit based on an optimal rotation of skills. The fact is that you misrepresent what people are telling you and I believe you are doing it on purpose to attempt to make them look stupid for no reason other than to protect your poor-thought out ideas. I don't get why you think the best way to approach this discussion is to be as dishonest as possible with people that don't agree with you. As you have already experienced, that doesn't work well for you.

> >

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > "balance is a myth"

> > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game

> >

> > Nice way to take his statement out of context. I didn't play GW1 but as I understand and based on checking it's Wiki page, it doesn't have multi-person raids likes GW2 ... so how is that comparison even make any sense? We ARE talking about multi-person raiding content here.

>

> The theoretical dps of necro is 28k dps and you 'll never achieve that in an actual raid you can get 24k to 26k but when I play on my holo with all exotic gear I get 28k to 30k in a raid and the necro have all ascended gear btw

 

Yes, and still, people get teams with necro. So what are people that can't get a team with necro doing wrong?

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > > > what i get all the time is that if the profession dont have DPS that because you dont know how to play the profession(L2P issue) or that you dont know how to team up with the profession(L2team up issue)

> > > > > > yes good player do a good teaming up result in higher DPS and faster clear of the contents

> > > > >

> > > > > No, you don't get that all the time

> > > > you really like to tell people what to do , say and think and if you are like that ingame you ll be on my block list and when i say something i mean it unlike you when you say i play necro in end game mode and refuse to show evidence

> > >

> > > I'm not telling anyone what to do or say or think ... but I got no problem telling you why what you do, say or think doesn't work with how the game is **currently** designed. FACT: You **could** get a team as a necro, you just don't want it bad enough. You want it handed to you like you are entitled to it.

> > >

> > > All this back and forth is not just to argue with you for fun ... it's so we can demonstrate, as a community, that things we desire and ask for are sensible with the good of the game in mind. That's really important if you understand how devs interact with the community (or why they don't).

> > >

> > > You think it's OK for you to say something and it's taken at face value and meaningful .... but when anyone else says something you don't agree with, you make specific and semi-ridiculous requests for things with the premise that if they don't provide them, just are just liars. That's a very disingenuous way to have a discussion with people.

> > >

> > > > > Now, the ACTUAL DPS a person can execute with a profession and a specific build .. that IS dependent on knowing how to play. But make sure you understand the difference between what the theoretical and actual DPS outputs are based on.

> > > > and this make me laugh so hard because the "theoretical" DPS of the necro is less than the lowest "actual" DPS of any other profession and do you know what even funnier is that their is no good reason for that

> > >

> > > Saying that you have been told that a profession doesn't have DPS because people don't know how to play is a half truth; The DPS ceiling of a class has NOTHING to do with how someone plays; that's a purely academic limit based on an optimal rotation of skills. The fact is that you misrepresent what people are telling you and I believe you are doing it on purpose to attempt to make them look stupid for no reason other than to protect your poor-thought out ideas. I don't get why you think the best way to approach this discussion is to be as dishonest as possible with people that don't agree with you. As you have already experienced, that doesn't work well for you.

> > >

> > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > "balance is a myth"

> > > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game

> > >

> > > Nice way to take his statement out of context. I didn't play GW1 but as I understand and based on checking it's Wiki page, it doesn't have multi-person raids likes GW2 ... so how is that comparison even make any sense? We ARE talking about multi-person raiding content here.

> >

> > The theoretical dps of necro is 28k dps and you 'll never achieve that in an actual raid you can get 24k to 26k but when I play on my holo with all exotic gear I get 28k to 30k in a raid and the necro have all ascended gear btw

>

> Yes, and still, people get teams with necro. So what are people that can't get a team with necro doing wrong?

 

yea and still good teams wont take necro because they dont want to carry this profession with the lowest DPS in the game

and if you like to leech raid and want other profession to carry you just keep in mind that their is players that dont like to be leeches or to get carried because of their profession and here is an example of player that dont want to carry this profession and they did say the reason why they dont want to team up with this profession



[Obtena.7952]

What makes those teams good? Nothing I can see from those shots indicates the capability of those teams. Are you saying that only bad teams take necros on teams? How are you defining what a good or bad team is? It doesn't make sense that you are defining it by the present or lack of a necro ... that's a very engineered answer to justify your beliefs.

 

What is the thing that makes people that get teams different than people that don't on their necro? It's not the DPS ceiling of the class.

 

Let's start from a truth. **People can team with their necro that are successfully completing content.** Not sure where you want to go from there but it is a truth that you are going to have to deal with if you are going to push your agenda of not being able to get teams because of a lack of DPS. I mean, how honestly can you ignore it and think you will get a positive result from your thread?

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> What makes those teams good? Nothing I can see from those shots indicates the capability of those teams.

good teams dont want to hit the enrage timer or do more mechanic

i let you know that raid is a repeatable content and you want to do them in the fastest and less mechanic possible

 

> What is the thing that makes people that get teams different than people that don't on their necro? It's not the DPS ceiling of the class.

i ask you as a player do you want to clear a weekly repeatable contents

do you like to do updraft in Gorseval or not?

do you like more cannon in Sabetha or not?

do you like more Mushrooms in Slothasor or not?

do you like more green in Dhuum or not?

all that determined by the DPS ceiling of you comp!!

player want the easy way out why i as a holo want to team up with a necro who lack dps , the dps difference is up to 15% , why i want to take this profession when i have way better one ( if the difference is less than 5% then no one will care )

do you like to walk to your home or you want a personal helicopter knowing getting a personal helicopter is just as easy as walking to your home

 

Anet fail with W1 to W5 because more DPS will help you ignore mechanic thus DPS help you clear the raid unlike the W6 when the mechanic that restricted the need for a DPS thus mechanic help you clear the raid

take all necros to W6 wont have a huge difference if you take any other DPS profession

but not the case with W1 to W5 you may end up hitting the enrage timer or fail because you have to do all the mechanic

 

as a none necro player do you want to clear raid the easy way or the normal way ?

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > What makes those teams good? Nothing I can see from those shots indicates the capability of those teams.

> good teams dont want to hit the enrage timer or do more mechanic

> i let you know that raid is a repeatable content and you want to do them in the fastest and less mechanic possible

 

Well, I can't think of a single team that WANTS to hit the enrage timer ... so you're telling me all teams are good. I don't see anything in what you have posted that indicates those teams, with no necro, won't hit the enrage timer. So how do you conclude they are good not knowing this? You actually concluded the teams are good because they won't take a necro, not because they actually ARE good. That's a faulty conclusion.

>

> > What is the thing that makes people that get teams different than people that don't on their necro? It's not the DPS ceiling of the class.

> i ask you as a player do you want to clear a weekly repeatable contents

> ....

> player want the easy way out why i as a holo want to team up with a necro who lack dps , the dps difference is up to 15% , why i want to take this profession when i have way better one ( if the difference is less than 5% then no one will care )

 

Wait a minute ... you told me a few pages back this wasn't about meta and you didn't care about meta ... but now you're talking about wanting to do content with players that want the easy way ... how do you not see you're asking for necro to be meta to so you can team with those players? You're just not being honest here. Don't make false claims that necro players can't get teams when they absolutely do all the time. Not having enough DPS and not getting teams are two completely different problems. If you try to couple one to the other, you won't get the fair, deserved attention to either.

 

Besides, your response doesn't answer my very simple question to you; what is the difference between the necro player that gets a team and the one that doesn't? It can't be DPS. I can assure you that the necro player who gets a team is just as capable of clearing weekly repeatable content.

 

Don't confuse efficiency with not being able to team as a necro. No one is arguing that necro has low DPS here. We have already established necro doesn't have good DPS ... I AGREE that necro doesn't have good DPS. That doesn't change the fact that Necro players **can** and **do** get teams.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > What makes those teams good? Nothing I can see from those shots indicates the capability of those teams.

> > good teams dont want to hit the enrage timer or do more mechanic

> > i let you know that raid is a repeatable content and you want to do them in the fastest and less mechanic possible

>

> Well, I can't think of a single team that WANTS to hit the enrage timer ... so you're telling me all teams are good. I don't see anything in what you have posted that indicates those teams, with no necro, won't hit the enrage timer. So how do you conclude they are good not knowing this? You actually concluded the teams are good because they won't take a necro, not because they actually ARE good. That's a faulty conclusion.

because they aren't teaming up with necro that why no one hit enrage timer

> > > What is the thing that makes people that get teams different than people that don't on their necro? It's not the DPS ceiling of the class.

> > i ask you as a player do you want to clear a weekly repeatable contents

> > ....

> > player want the easy way out why i as a holo want to team up with a necro who lack dps , the dps difference is up to 15% , why i want to take this profession when i have way better one ( if the difference is less than 5% then no one will care )

>

> Wait a minute ... you told me a few pages back this wasn't about meta and you didn't care about meta ... but now you're talking about wanting to do content with players that want the easy way ... how do you not see you're asking for necro to be meta to so you can team with those players? You're just not being honest here. Don't make false claims that necro players can't get teams when they absolutely do all the time. Not having enough DPS and not getting teams are two completely different problems. If you try to couple one to the other, you won't get the fair, deserved attention to either.

>

> Besides, your response doesn't answer my very simple question to you; what is the difference between the necro player that gets a team and the one that doesn't? It can't be DPS. I can assure you that the necro player who gets a team is just as capable of clearing weekly repeatable content.

>

> Don't confuse efficiency with not being able to team as a necro. No one is arguing that necro has low DPS here. We have already established necro doesn't have good DPS ... I AGREE that necro doesn't have good DPS. That doesn't change the fact that Necro players **can** and **do** get teams.

 

never i ever mentioned the word meta and asking for necro to have a DPS that inline with other profession isn't a meta (do you even know what meta mean)

and necro have hard time to get in teams because of his low DPS that the realty if you want to ignore that that is your problem not mine

and the image answer your question and yes its DPS

he said i dont want a necro(not the player he mean the profession) doing 8k DPS on a boss while holo do 30K DPS

and i did recognize a player in his comp and i know that he is not a good holo because i did play with him before

that why you see me saying i can out DPS you holo and then i mentioned his name

then you see the commander say HAHAHA no i can out DPS you on any other profession


[DragonFury.6243]

may be this will help the necro to team up correctly


 

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> may be this will help the necro to team up correctly

> 

>

 

if any one want a DPS that mean no necro

but no they will tell you necro is requited for fractal

[Farkon.2170]

Just a TLDR for everyone not knowing what's going on in this huge thread:

**OP posts the truth about where Necros stand in Fractals and Raids.**

"Obtena.7952 " = Those teams isn't good enough for Necro and they don't know what Necros provide.

"Dace.8173" = Leeching isn't bad, they should let Necros in since they can do it even if they're not optimized.

"Farkon.2170" = Necros should have Endure Pain for a few seconds in shroud and have out of combat passive LF regen up to 25% since they have no invuln/block/extra evades/etc.

[Dace.8173]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > > @"Farkon.2170" said:

> > > > > > I'm just really tired of **being hunted like a dog in sPvP** and all the hate I get for being a Necro since every class can out 1v1 us in all regards because our mechanics work against us, we provide nothing to the table that's unique and we have too many weaknesses. I'm fine with classes having their own set of weaknesses and strengths, but the amount of weaknesses our class has is just simply absurd.

> > > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/102895daacd9ef4c8117a928c3697ac7.mp4

> > > > > > Also, again, I can reach Plat easily with Mirage since they have so much damage, mobility, and invulnerability. SO it's not an issue with learning how to play a class.

> > > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/82c4912c2ac76111b757225f4a0d29f4.mp4

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the sPvP side of problems:*

> > > > > > * We can't normally cleave properly since that means going into aoe in a fight and we lose our shroud so quickly due to this even with protection and Rise!.

> > > > > > * I get out ranged by every kitten class because our ranged capabilities are trash except for axe2 and focus 5, love that ranger knockback.

> > > > > > * I get CC to death by everything since Reapers only have 1 source of stab that hardly lasts long enough, and competent players wait until I go Kaioken to use it

> > > > > > * Mesmers just utterly destroy necros due to their 9 second evade/invuln and we don't have the sustain to deal with that nor can we get away due to their mobility.

> > > > > > * We have no semi-burst potential outside of our shroud which requires LF, so Reapers are always fighting two battles, one against the enemy and the other against our own LF bar.

> > > > > > * Most of our attacks are slow and predictable, yet hit the same(if not less) as every other meta class since we have no forms of might gain outside of shroud/well.

> > > > > > * If you don't go power well for a build and take blighter's boon, you have absolutely trash sustain but then you give up your semi burst potential.

> > > > > > * Our condition cleanse is utter trash unless we sacrifice our DPS and every utility option has a ton of downsides (Plague can miss, suffer is trash against 1 target, consume can be interrupted and always is against competent players.) While other classes have passive condition cleanse and/or better options.

> > > > > > *A lot of our utility isn't viable anymore and is outdated, an example is Blood Is Power, where 5 might is nothing compared to how another support can do so much more with one skill.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As for raids I can't even get into groups as my Reaper and it's really sad since compared to WoW where every class there is viable with different unique traits they bring to the table.

> > > > > > https://i.gyazo.com/a82adec974881ca6cc377314254ccd37.png

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > If you can reach Plat with Mesmer/Mirage but struggle with Necromancer then to some extent it is an issue of learning to play the profession. Also, Necromancer isn't the only one that gets hunted like a dog. A guildmate asked me to switch from playing Dragonhunter to Firebrand (for the first time) and attention was focused on me to an absurd degree. Part of the reason why Necromancer gets hunted down so heavily in PvP is because Scourge is a fairly strong build and can wreck peoples day if they don't respond to it correctly. So rather than having to wade through condi cleanses people just opt to kill it. It is the nature of PvP that certain professions and Elites gain far more attention than others. If you don't enjoy being hunted down like a dog then you shouldn't play Necromancer. People hunt it down because it can be effective. Despite any claims that it sucks in PvP if it truly sucked it wouldn't be a high priority target. I typically play Dragonhunter this season and Dragonhunter is not a high priority target and as such, I don't draw nearly as much attention as I did when I played Firebrand, because Firebrand is a high priority target that can ruin peoples day. Deadeye is also something that people tend to hunt down like a dog.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, not being able to 1v1 is not a bad thing. Dueling in PvP, in this game at least, is a secondary concern to maintain control of nodes. I've won games where I didn't win a single duel but still was the top scorer on Offense and Defense. If dueling is your thing then you have to stick with a profession or Elite that is geared towards that. It is the case that not everything in PvP is meant to be a 1v1 dueler. This isn't an issue unique to Necromancer. Elementalist (both Weaver and Tempest) are not good duelers. Power Herald is a +1 and can fold real fast in a duel, especially if it becomes protracted. The PvP experience is simply not designed around the idea that everyone needs to be a dueler. Designing some professions in such a way as to not be duelers helps to make sure that the teams have a bit of diversity in capabilities that supports how matches are won. You could be the best dueler in the game and you can still lose the match if you aren't actually doing what is required to win a match. I've seen it happen plenty of times, both as an aspect of other people on my team and as something an opposing team did. However, being bad a dueling doesn't render Necromancer as moot as it has a solid support role in PvP.

> > > > >

> > > > > A lot of the side problems you list are only issues when you try to play PvP in a fashion the profession or Elite was not designed to do in the first place. One of the things I notice a lot is people really do have a problem accepting what something is good at doing vs the flavor of what they want to play and how they want to play. I see it with plenty of other professions. There is a lot of love for Revenant, as an example, and some of those folks who love the concept of Revenant hate how it is played because how it actually works is very different from the flavor that they adore so much.

> > > > >

> > > > > With that said, Repear, when played to its strengths does very well in PvP. It can also do very well in Raids. You just need to know how to find groups. [As for WoW](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760896334 "As for WoW"), WoW [has it's ](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623522336 "has it's ")own [balance issues](https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17623442327 "balance issues") and not everything is viable there. Their forums have [plenty of threads](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20767608963 "plenty of threads") that complain about the [same balance issues](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759637242 "same balance issues") that [happen here](https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762046841 "happen here").

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Its because of the lack of a trio and official role, because it makes balancing impossible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In wow anyways, they have trouble balancing as well.If you look at the game, they constantly are changing classes from what is the meta.I don't know if its to change the flavor, or because balancing is impossible, because people who were melee complain that ranged casters are fast and got ranged attacks, and melee are melee range and warriors being slow and kiteable.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm of the opinion that balance is a myth that we tell ourselves when we feel bad about losing. Even WoW, with the Holy Trinity, still has balancing issues that people get very upset over. Since balance is an impossible thing to reach I think what really should be strived for is reducing the amount of imbalance as much as possible. Just because balance cannot be acheived doesn't mean the game needs to be severally out of alignment. In that regard I don't think ArenaNet is worse at it than other games and companies (I've seen complaints on this forum express on other games forums, for instance. Right down to the assumption that the balance team is incompetent or stupid).

> > > > >

> > > > > In regards to Necromancer, I think due to some of the design flaws that the profession has, balancing it to a level that makes most people happy is a bit harder than some of the professions (Though not all of them. I'm also of the opinion that the sheer number of weapon skills for Elementalist makes balancing that profession a nightmare). I also think the design flaws it has prevents it from being all things to every Necromancer players. So for example, I find the odds Necromancer being a good 1v1 dueler as opposed to a good +1 support are small. Though I do feel that Elite specs provide some hope. Due to the fact that you can take more chances with the mechanics on an Elite spec it may be possible to at least design an Elite spec that gets Necromancer to the place where some people want it to go without trashing Necromancer as it currently stands so that the people who currently enjoy it as is are also happy. I find Scourge to be a promising sign that experimitation with with the Shroud mechanic can yield posistive results.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > "balance is a myth"

> > > > then why almost every GW1 player will say it was the best balanced game

> > > > and what are the reason for not allowing the necro as a profession to have a good DPS in PvE and we have split???

> > > > some balance change from PvP and WvW affected scourge in PvE (and we have something called split) here some examples

> > > > -0.5 delay on all scourge F skills (this make it harder to use barrier to mitigate some immediate damage thus restricting scourge ability to support)

> > > > -[Dhuumfire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dhuumfire "Dhuumfire") the 1 second icd (such burst needed in instant content like CM 99 and 100 fractal and some raid)

> > > > -[Nefarious Favor](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nefarious_Favor "Nefarious Favor") split this skill to its original design (this make scourge more support)

> > > > what are the reason for that to have them in PvE???

> > >

> > > Because of the perceived unfairness of having shroud that absorbs more health. Like I said:If we get more power, people will cry because necros would have a advantage against other players in roaming, and perceive that to be overpowered. After all, we got more power now, and combine more power with survivability, and you have a recipe for disaster. Plus reaper does have aoes. Could you imagine a reaper going into shroud having it last 15 and up seconds and having it do the damage it does now? yeah you would have a lot of non necros crying, especially all the elementalists who are having trouble winning right now.

> >

> > what make you think that i want a buff necro in PvP and WvW necro is good here but i want the buff in PvE i mean we have split after all

>

> I didn't say you wanted to buff necros in pvp and WVW, I am just pointing out that players would get angry at necros if they could do the dps that other classes could, but with the survivability of shroud, because it would overlap in pvp and WVW.

>

> You would also gain a lot more benefit in pve to the point where you might have the damage of a elementalist, but with way more survivability in pve.

>

> How would you balance lets say necro being strong in pve without overlapping in pvp too much? The reason that Anet took away so much shroud duration, is because they knew it would be a problem in pvp and wvw as it would overlap too much.

>

 

I think this highlights the core problem, that the Shroud mechanic makes Necromancer appear stronger (and in some cases actually is stronger) than it truly is. I think the PvP/WvW shows how people tend to react to Necromancer when you combine higher dps level with its sustainability from Shroud. I think it also highlights how skill splitting in different modes doesn't address the issue since Necromancer would already have a higher DPS level if skill splitting worked to 100% resolve the problem. There is far too much bleed over between the different modes of play, which is why skill splitting has never been able to fully address some balance issues. When the issue is related to a skill that isn't working right or a weapon that is a bit too strong skill splitting seems to work. When the problem is related to core design issues, such as Shroud, then skill splitting doesn't really seem nearly as effective.

 

I think one of the reasons why Necromancer gets to be stronger in PvP/WvW is that players can counter themselves in a way that balances out that simply won't occur in PvE. Thus in PvE professions that are strong come off as strong in a way that can overshadow other professions in an unhealthy way. When this overshadowing occurs player discontent rises. Thus, simply buffing Necromancer DPS fails because it misunderstands the core problem, which isn't really 100% related to DPS levels.

 

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > What makes those teams good? Nothing I can see from those shots indicates the capability of those teams.

> > good teams dont want to hit the enrage timer or do more mechanic

> > i let you know that raid is a repeatable content and you want to do them in the fastest and less mechanic possible

>

> Well, I can't think of a single team that WANTS to hit the enrage timer ... so you're telling me all teams are good. I don't see anything in what you have posted that indicates those teams, with no necro, won't hit the enrage timer. So how do you conclude they are good not knowing this? You actually concluded the teams are good because they won't take a necro, not because they actually ARE good. That's a faulty conclusion.

> >

> > > What is the thing that makes people that get teams different than people that don't on their necro? It's not the DPS ceiling of the class.

> > i ask you as a player do you want to clear a weekly repeatable contents

> > ....

> > player want the easy way out why i as a holo want to team up with a necro who lack dps , the dps difference is up to 15% , why i want to take this profession when i have way better one ( if the difference is less than 5% then no one will care )

>

> Wait a minute ... you told me a few pages back this wasn't about meta and you didn't care about meta ... but now you're talking about wanting to do content with players that want the easy way ... how do you not see you're asking for necro to be meta to so you can team with those players? You're just not being honest here. Don't make false claims that necro players can't get teams when they absolutely do all the time. Not having enough DPS and not getting teams are two completely different problems. If you try to couple one to the other, you won't get the fair, deserved attention to either.

>

> Besides, your response doesn't answer my very simple question to you; what is the difference between the necro player that gets a team and the one that doesn't? It can't be DPS. I can assure you that the necro player who gets a team is just as capable of clearing weekly repeatable content.

>

> Don't confuse efficiency with not being able to team as a necro. No one is arguing that necro has low DPS here. We have already established necro doesn't have good DPS ... I AGREE that necro doesn't have good DPS. That doesn't change the fact that Necro players **can** and **do** get teams.

 

I think dishonestly is the least of this threads problems.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > may be this will help the necro to team up correctly

> > 

> >

> because they aren't teaming up with necro that why no one hit enrage timer

 

Teams that have necros don't necessarily hit enrage timer either. Contrary to that, I've seen plenty of teams without a necro hit enrage timer ... so what you said doesn't make any sense. You can't conclude good teams that don't hit enrage timers never have necros and you can't conclude that bad teams that do hit enrage timers always have a necro. They just have no correlation.

 

> if any one want a DPS that mean no necro

> but no they will tell you necro is requited for fractal

 

That's nice, but that doesn't mean people playing necro don't get teams ... so if your complaint is you want more DPS, don't use _necros don't get teams_ as a thinly veiled and false reason.

 

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> never i ever mentioned the word meta and asking for necro to have a DPS that inline with other profession isn't a meta

 

And that's why your solution to get a team with more DPS isn't going to work, because those teams DO want meta DPS; not having meta level DPS is exactly WHY you aren't welcomed in those teams. So yes, you are asking for Necro to be meta, you just don't realize it (or you just not being honest again), even if you aren't using that term.

 

I don't actually understand why you avoid simply admitting you want meta DPS on a necro, because that's the only thing that the teams you are trying to get on want you to have. I also don't know why you keep presenting it because no one disagrees with you on that point; necros DO HAVE LOW DPS. I guess your desire to argue is greater than actually discussing what you want. Your choice.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Dace.8173" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > how is that any different from what you're doing here though? The point is that unless concerns are voiced, everything will be seen as okay, and nothing will be done.

> > >

> > > It's very simple, something I've said numerous time but for some reason people ignore. I don't disagree that Necromancer has some severe problems that need addressing. I have said as much on several occasion (and multiple times in this thread). I have discussed at length with various Necromancer players on what could be done and what I feel the core problem and issue is. I have discussed what mechanical changes I feel would yield better results. I don't disregard the concerns of Necromancer players nor do I advance the idea that everything is fine. Where I differ, with many of them, is on what can be done to solve the problem. When people complain about not being able to get on teams to do endgame content I offer up suggestions for how to resolve that problem that doesn't require you to rely on ANet to offer a buff or fix. I can play my Reaper in Raids if I want to. You could too if you put in the work to do so.

> > >

> > > Also, there's a world of difference between voicing your concerns and simply complaining and rejecting anything that contradicts a myopic focus on details that don't matter nearly as much as people indicate. People should voice their concerns. Complaining, though, gets nothing done. It becomes so much white noise that it is ignorable. Threads that are constructive in nature, that are discussing actual fixes and solutions, are the kind of things a company pays attention to. This is the kind of thread a company ignores. A discussion on the weakness of the Shroud mechanic and how it holds Necromancer back in many ways can lead to ideas that could be implemented in future material. Complaining that you can't get into Raids and people kick you and you need more and more and more buffs leads nowhere. In part because Arena Net knows that the issue isn't completely created by lower DPS.

> >

> > So you agree that necro needs some work, bu don't like the way I post?

>

> At no point have I ever advanced an argument that Necromancer doesn't need some work. However, complaining is pointless and gets no one anywhere. More so when ArenaNet says they look for constructive feedback and critiques.

 

As for the latter point you may as well ask fish not to swim or birds not to fly. As for the former point, I misunderstood your points then, I apologize.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > @"Dace.8173" said:

> > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > how is that any different from what you're doing here though? The point is that unless concerns are voiced, everything will be seen as okay, and nothing will be done.

> > > >

> > > > It's very simple, something I've said numerous time but for some reason people ignore. I don't disagree that Necromancer has some severe problems that need addressing. I have said as much on several occasion (and multiple times in this thread). I have discussed at length with various Necromancer players on what could be done and what I feel the core problem and issue is. I have discussed what mechanical changes I feel would yield better results. I don't disregard the concerns of Necromancer players nor do I advance the idea that everything is fine. Where I differ, with many of them, is on what can be done to solve the problem. When people complain about not being able to get on teams to do endgame content I offer up suggestions for how to resolve that problem that doesn't require you to rely on ANet to offer a buff or fix. I can play my Reaper in Raids if I want to. You could too if you put in the work to do so.

> > > >

> > > > Also, there's a world of difference between voicing your concerns and simply complaining and rejecting anything that contradicts a myopic focus on details that don't matter nearly as much as people indicate. People should voice their concerns. Complaining, though, gets nothing done. It becomes so much white noise that it is ignorable. Threads that are constructive in nature, that are discussing actual fixes and solutions, are the kind of things a company pays attention to. This is the kind of thread a company ignores. A discussion on the weakness of the Shroud mechanic and how it holds Necromancer back in many ways can lead to ideas that could be implemented in future material. Complaining that you can't get into Raids and people kick you and you need more and more and more buffs leads nowhere. In part because Arena Net knows that the issue isn't completely created by lower DPS.

> > >

> > > So you agree that necro needs some work, bu don't like the way I post?

> >

> > At no point have I ever advanced an argument that Necromancer doesn't need some work. However, complaining is pointless and gets no one anywhere. More so when ArenaNet says they look for constructive feedback and critiques.

>

> As for the latter point you may as well ask fish not to swim or birds not to fly. As for the former point, I misunderstood your points then, I apologize.

 

I think the point here is that Anet isn't going to comb through a thread that just complains about stuff and it's not like they haven't heard of this 'low DPS necro' issue before. At this point, if we aren't discussing solutions (which we have actually attempted to do with the OP here), then the thread is pointless.

 

OP continues to present examples of him not getting PUG team because of low DPS ... no one is disagreeing with that; we all know necro isn't teamed because of it's high DPS. The disagreement is the approach that a player in THAT situation takes to solve the problem for themselves instead of waiting until the end of days for Anet to randomly buff the class into a meta DPS position.

 

For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention.

lets start with meta

it means "Most Effective Tactic Available" like people stack renegade on dhuum or mirages on twin largos it is the MOST effective tactics

but a Deadeye joining dhuum wont get kick although it not meta for that boss but its dps is very close so no one care

but a necro joining dhuum is a problem you know why because it has 15-20% less dmg you will have to do more greens and the more necros joins the more you will have to do increasing the whole group chance of failure .

Raids in this game is all about dps the more you have it the more you clear content faster easier with less mechanics and low chance of failure .

(someone who dont know that either never raided or just trolling)

here the discrimination against necro came from its not that people just hate necro or dont want to team with them for the sake of it .

teaming with necro mean longer harder raid with more mechanics and increased risk of failure for the whole group .

a difference between a necro that can team up with a group and a one that dont is that the first one have 9 player willing to carry him .

and we all seem to agree that necro has low dps

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> necros DO HAVE LOW DPS

 

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention.

> lets start with meta

> it means "Most Effective Tactic Available" like people stack renegade on dhuum or mirages on twin largos it is the MOST effective tactics

> but a Deadeye joining dhuum wont get kick although it not meta for that boss but its dps is very close so no one care

> but a necro joining dhuum is a problem you know why because it has 15-20% less dmg you will have to do more greens and the more necros joins the more you will have to do increasing the whole group chance of failure .

 

>

>

 

interessting example, if a look at the global stats

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-19450

scourge does only <60 dps than deadeye.i wouldn´t call that unplayable. but feel free to prove me wrong with meaningfull evidence (that does not include feelings and opinions)

im not even mentioning that scourge is also often taking for the kiter role. now we have 2 viable options to play a necro on dhuum, mhmmm

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention.

> > lets start with meta

> > it means "Most Effective Tactic Available" like people stack renegade on dhuum or mirages on twin largos it is the MOST effective tactics

> > but a Deadeye joining dhuum wont get kick although it not meta for that boss but its dps is very close so no one care

> > but a necro joining dhuum is a problem you know why because it has 15-20% less dmg you will have to do more greens and the more necros joins the more you will have to do increasing the whole group chance of failure .

>

> >

> >

>

> interessting example, if a look at the global stats

> https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-19450

> scourge does only <60 dps than deadeye.i wouldn´t call that unplayable. but feel free to prove me wrong with meaningfull evidence (that does not include feelings and opinions)

> im not even mentioning that scourge is also often taking for the kiter role. now we have 2 viable options to play a necro on dhuum, mhmmm

 

You know, for PuG, the 50% percentile (average) is probably a lot more accurate than the 99% percentile (top players in experienced static groups)

[sigur.9453]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention.

> > > lets start with meta

> > > it means "Most Effective Tactic Available" like people stack renegade on dhuum or mirages on twin largos it is the MOST effective tactics

> > > but a Deadeye joining dhuum wont get kick although it not meta for that boss but its dps is very close so no one care

> > > but a necro joining dhuum is a problem you know why because it has 15-20% less dmg you will have to do more greens and the more necros joins the more you will have to do increasing the whole group chance of failure .

> >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > interessting example, if a look at the global stats

> > https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-19450

> > scourge does only <60 dps than deadeye.i wouldn´t call that unplayable. but feel free to prove me wrong with meaningfull evidence (that does not include feelings and opinions)

> > im not even mentioning that scourge is also often taking for the kiter role. now we have 2 viable options to play a necro on dhuum, mhmmm

>

> You know, for PuG, the 50% percentile (average) is probably a lot more accurate than the 99% percentile (top players in experienced static groups)

 

since OP is talking about "good groups" all the time and "high skill ceilings", im comparing to that. 50% isn´t that good to compare anyway since there are a lot of "dead people" and "no boon groups" which screw the whole statistics on that level.

edit: its also possible to get 99%+ in pug groups, so its not only perfect static teamups. and since ops concern is balance, somone doing a random rota and pressing buttons on cooldown does not realy matter.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > You know, for PuG, the 50% percentile (average) is probably a lot more accurate than the 99% percentile (top players in experienced static groups)

>

> since OP is talking about "good groups" all the time and "high skill ceilings", im comparing to that. 50% isn´t that good to compare anyway since there are a lot of "dead people" and "no boon groups" which screw the whole statistics on that level.

> edit: its also possible to get 99%+ in pug groups, so its not only perfect static teamups. and since ops concern is balance, somone doing a random rota and pressing buttons on cooldown does not realy matter.

 

The OP concern is mainly that he is kicked arbitrarily from group because he play a certain profession.

 

You only can hope for 99% percentile performance if you are in a group that provide you with the tools to achieve it (optimal boon and condition uptime) while you as a player make little to no error. That's not something that anyone should expect from a pug group. And since the op have clearly issues to enter pug groups (yes the screens are important) it's better to look at the 50% percentile than at the 99% percentile that represent barely 1% of the meager part of GW2 population that push themself to do raids. Finding a PuG group that reach 99% percentile is probably as rare as a precursor drop.

 

One should never even look at the 99% percentile and expect to reach it out of a static experienced group. 50% is what you should expect and plan for. And in regard of performance, if you look at what the OP said and the 50% percentile, you'll see that he is almost right on spot (13% instead of 15%) when it come to the dps difference. Now, sure, the dps scourge can provide an instance of barrier every x second but that's about all it does and it's difficult to justify such a dps difference for a tiny barrier when other can just easily blast a water field for the same result.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > You know, for PuG, the 50% percentile (average) is probably a lot more accurate than the 99% percentile (top players in experienced static groups)

> >

> > since OP is talking about "good groups" all the time and "high skill ceilings", im comparing to that. 50% isn´t that good to compare anyway since there are a lot of "dead people" and "no boon groups" which screw the whole statistics on that level.

> > edit: its also possible to get 99%+ in pug groups, so its not only perfect static teamups. and since ops concern is balance, somone doing a random rota and pressing buttons on cooldown does not realy matter.

>

> The OP concern is mainly that he is kicked arbitrarily from group because he play a certain profession.

>

as i looked on the sceenshots again, i noticed op tried to join on power favoured bosses with a scourge. i highly daught that he would have got a place with a dps firebrand either. (i wouldn´t mind in my goups if s/he´s joined btw)

 

> You only can hope for 99% percentile performance if you are in a group that provide you with the tools to achieve it (optimal boon and condition uptime) while you as a player make little to no error. That's not something that anyone should expect from a pug group. And since the op have clearly issues to enter pug groups (yes the screens are important) it's better to look at the 50% percentile than at the 99% percentile that represent barely 1% of the meager part of GW2 population that push themself to do raids. Finding a PuG group that reach 99% percentile is probably as rare as a precursor drop.

>

not saying i expect it, but i definitly not unachievable. you don´t need the whole group to achieve 99% dps, a good chrono will carry you quite far. the top 100% values are out of reach, but even a "low 100% log" is possible.

as said before, 50% has NO RELEVANCE to balance. it only shows that someone has to learn the encounter or the rotation some more.

i have definitly seen more 99% logs in pugs then precourser drops. (to add: i mostly join >250Li groups when i pug)

 

> One should never even look at the 99% percentile and expect to reach it out of a static experienced group. 50% is what you should expect and plan for. And in regard of performance, if you look at what the OP said and the 50% percentile, you'll see that he is almost right on spot (13% instead of 15%) when it come to the dps difference. Now, sure, the dps scourge can provide an instance of barrier every x second but that's about all it does and it's difficult to justify such a dps difference for a tiny barrier when other can just easily blast a water field for the same result.

 

if i would set 50% as my personal goal, id rather do worldbosses. if you have skill + know your class & the enouncter, even with less optimal boons you are capeable to reach at least (and i am super generous here)75%+. its another thing when mechanics go wrong, , granted.

[Axl.8924]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > For whatever reason at this point, the OP is being stubborn and unreasonable ... to the point of denying even to himself and splitting hairs about wanting DPS, but not meta-DPS levels to get teams that kick necros for not being a meta-DPS class. /shrug. This is textbook how NOT to make a thread if you want developers to give the problem attention.

> lets start with meta

> it means "Most Effective Tactic Available" like people stack renegade on dhuum or mirages on twin largos it is the MOST effective tactics

> but a Deadeye joining dhuum wont get kick although it not meta for that boss but its dps is very close so no one care

> but a necro joining dhuum is a problem you know why because it has 15-20% less dmg you will have to do more greens and the more necros joins the more you will have to do increasing the whole group chance of failure .

> Raids in this game is all about dps the more you have it the more you clear content faster easier with less mechanics and low chance of failure .

> (someone who dont know that either never raided or just trolling)

> here the discrimination against necro came from its not that people just hate necro or dont want to team with them for the sake of it .

> teaming with necro mean longer harder raid with more mechanics and increased risk of failure for the whole group .

> a difference between a necro that can team up with a group and a one that dont is that the first one have 9 player willing to carry him .

> and we all seem to agree that necro has low dps

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > necros DO HAVE LOW DPS

 

While this is true about that, couldn't you just form your own raid? if you have done raids before of these types and have a commander tag, couldn't you lead the raid?

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > The OP concern is mainly that he is kicked arbitrarily from group because he play a certain profession.

> >

> as i looked on the sceenshots again, i noticed op tried to join on power favoured bosses with a scourge. i highly daught that he would have got a place with a dps firebrand either. (i wouldn´t mind in my goups if s/he´s joined btw)

>

 

I doubt it was just a single boss or once that he encountered this reject. There is even a screenshot where he ask the cm to specify if they don't want necromancers in their LFG and the guy flat out refuse. In one of the screenshot, you can even see a "normal DPS" added on a LFG, not even specifying power or condi.

 

The end game suffer from a serious problem of discrimination, the screenshots show case of bullying. We all know that the content can be done by any and all professions, however there are still case of professions rejected in "open" LFG. Since it's difficult to change the way "human" thinks, the only way to reduce this bullying is to show this bullying and ask for "balance" tweeks that can mend the issue.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > The OP concern is mainly that he is kicked arbitrarily from group because he play a certain profession.

> > >

> > as i looked on the sceenshots again, i noticed op tried to join on power favoured bosses with a scourge. i highly daught that he would have got a place with a dps firebrand either. (i wouldn´t mind in my goups if s/he´s joined btw)

> >

>

> I doubt it was just a single boss or once that he encountered this reject. There is even a screenshot where he ask the cm to specify if they don't want necromancers in their LFG and the guy flat out refuse. In one of the screenshot, you can even see a "normal DPS" added on a LFG, not even specifying power or condi.

>

> The end game suffer from a serious problem of discrimination, the screenshots show case of bullying. We all know that the content can be done by any and all professions, however there are still case of professions rejected in "open" LFG. Since it's difficult to change the way "human" thinks, the only way to reduce this bullying is to show this bullying and ask for "balance" tweeks that can mend the issue.

 

you should tell that to op, he stated in this thread that he dont want necros in his groups. or something similar.

but true, i also have prejudices when a necro/dh joins, but it has nothing to do with balance or benchmarks. (but im always willing to give them a chance to proof me wrong)

discrimination is a far to hard word for not beeing able to join into every group.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> you should tell that to op, he stated in this thread that he dont want necros in his groups. or something similar.

> but true, i also have prejudices when a necro/dh joins, but it has nothing to do with balance or benchmarks. (but im always willing to give them a chance to proof me wrong)

> discrimination is a far to hard word for not beeing able to join into every group.

 

To discriminate: to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality:

 

When someone judge how you will perform based on the profession you play and reject you before even giving you a chance, what else is it if it's not discrimination? I won't describe a cat by saying that it's a furry beast, I'll say that it's a cat. Discrimination exist as long as you are rejected specifically based on the profession you play instead of your actual performances in the fight.

 

One of my favourite example of discrimination is something that happened to me in fractal in the HoT era. I joined a PuG to clear my daylies as a dps condi chrono (something unthinkable at that time). We were progressing just fine until this revenant started to bother me with his "Condi chrono? Why don't you play a proper build? Where's your support? What are you good for?... Blah Blah Blah". The revenant was "meta" and performed poorly but the group was doing fine. I quited the group and found another group shortly after doing again all 3 fractals before my first group managed to even finish their own daylies.

 

The morality is that despite not being meta I was compensating for the poorly played meta revenant.

 

Here, a good song against discrimination: