Raiding is on the verge of destroying huge segments of the GW2 community, if it hasn't already

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > 1hr in silverwastes is around 30g... a full set of berserker gear is 20g, including trinkets. Or they could just do dailies and it would take 5 days. I really cant believe gold of all things would be the main issue when its so so easy to come by. Time I can understand but again, if they only play 1 hr per week how do you expect to get a full squad all online at the same time to raid?

>

> More casual players are usually not using efficient ways to farm gold. 5 dailies is still a lot for casuals. With maybe one day per week playing - usually not farming gold - it might take a few weeks to earn 20 gold. A set of scholar runes is btw. already 52 gold, your numbers seem wrong. There are budget variants, sure. But casuals are usually not very good players and on top an equipment handicap? Bad idea.

> All of this is an upfront investment. There is no guaranteed success and a more casual player might want to kill the boss once, not farm it weekly.

>

> I can set up a 10 people team, that's no problem. Often there are either guildforums, a "guild activities day" per week or phonenumbers are known. It's "on 15.1.2019 were are going to do raid X at 20.00". If one or two players are missing someone brings a friend as replacement. Or you reschulde for 30.3.2019 or so.

>

> > ' there is no content for casual- or coregamer teams.' - this is honestly the part of your argument that i find totally ludicrous. Almost ALL content in gw2 is created for casuals. In fact the only content that is NOT for casual teams are raids and ranked pvp. T1 fractals alone have more variety of instanced content than raids have.

> >

> I'm refering to team content which is lacking, not casual content in general. Same as there is lots of challenging content, as PVP seasons or WvW or PVE content as triple trouble or some achievements. But ofc is this challenging content not able to replace raids, it caters to a different kind of players. Guilds/teams are seriously lacking content in GW2. 1-2 fractals only are by far not enough. I doubt that many raid players would be happy if there would be no raids and they'd be stuck with fractals only since HoT. That's the situation more casual groups are in. They also don't enjoy repeating content hundreds of times. So even with 5 repetitions that's content for 10 weeks. Then leave the game for 10 months, waiting for new content?

>

> Fractals are problematic bc reward structure and design (~15min content) is the same. New fractals cater imho mostly to active fractal players, but for people which feel done with fractals? Do a new fractal maybe once and that's it. Imho is a new concept needed with new unique rewards and so on. Farming tokens for bigger bags, achievements or whatever.

> btw. easier teamcontent also helps to reduce the gap to raids. People start to improve their equip for dungeons and fractals. They learn how to play. It just takes time and if they run out of content before they are "raid ready" they'll move into open world and forget all progress they made.

>

> Lacking group/guildcontent is btw. a problem which you can find differently worded a lot, as recent example:

> "guildmissions". People got a guild, but nothing to do together. Casual guilds advertised for a long time with "guildmissions, dungeons, fractals". Teamcontent is very important, it helps to form a community. These people are not looking for a challange, they are looking for something to do together. That's btw not a new problem. An elderly couple of my alliance complained in 2012 shortly after release. They left for Teso afaik. Married, wanted to play something together. In GW1 we did successfully "raid" together, they posted afterwards pictures of them and their "preparations" (coffee, mozartkugeln and cake). In GW2 I wouldn't even dare to bring them into most dungeons.

>

 

Yes they may not normally farm gold efficiently, but theres absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so for 1 hr. Raids need preparation anyway in the form of learning rotations and mechanics so 1 hr isnt alot to ask. If they cant devote 1hr to preparing for the endgame pve bosses then the content is not for them, and thats fine.

 

New players dont need scholar runes..they arent going to stay above 90% HP anyway. In this case, a budget rune would be fine.

 

If your concern is they will spend effort and dislike it, therefore having wasted the effort then just go and try cairn escort or MO in crap gear. You wont be able to kill it but you can still experience the boss itself and get an idea of what raids are like.

 

If they have the free time to play gw2 whenever the schedule asks for, but still choose to only play 1 hr per week then again they really arent interested in the game at all and I dont see why anet should invest in them, especially over casual players who enjoy living world ect and play multiple times per week.

 

Its natural that hardcore players get more team content, since thats the main content they are invested in. Casuals on top of fracs also get a full living world release. Instanced content in general is lacking but if you want more, the resources from that have to come from somewhere, and that means less living story. Id love to have more fractals and even dungeons, and less living world. Doing so would completely change the direction of the game though, and I doubt most people would like that.

 

 

[irrimn.3192]

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in, as a 'casual' GW2 player that used to be a raider back in the WotLK days of WoW...

 

So, I mostly agree with OP in that there is a significant rift between experienced raiders and 'casual' players that are somewhat interested in raids. The problem is honestly the barriers to entry that are present are completely anti-casual. Now, I'm not saying that raid content should be a walk in the park. Obviously, raid content should require learning of the mechanics and some preparation - at least, to get your feet wet. But as it is, I don't think any GW2 raids offer content that is do-able without significant investment.

 

I say significant investment because for the average player, getting an entire new set of gear and weapons is an investment in time and resources. There's just no way to easily adapt whatever you're running for PvE to a 'meta' build for raiding. Now, before you say that you don't have to run a 'meta' build, let me stop you right there and tell you that, as a casual person interested in raiding, it is practically an imperative (from the experienced raiding community as well as less-experienced PUGs) that you do run a build that is at least 90% meta. From the difficulty in finding a group that will want to raid with you if you're not, to the difficulty of actually succeeding in a raid with an off-meta build, the pressure to change your gear and 'be meta' is enough to turn most casual players off raiding in an instant. Obviously you could probably just run exotics for your new gear and that MIGHT be fine, but the handicap you're giving yourself as an already disadvantaged player in not having the best stats / most advantage will definitely hurt your odds of success. Even more so if you're not very good at sticking to a rotation while also following the mechanics of the fight, or if you're just not good at learning a new rotation to begin with (heaven forbid you try to raid with a PvE skillset / traits).

 

Now, assuming someone is willing to put in the time for learning a new build/ rotation and obtains a new set of ascended gear, they have to also start at the very bottom of the barrel in terms of who they're able to raid with (assuming they know the proper avenues to go through to even get into a raiding party in the first place and aren't just trying to PUG it through LFG). This pretty much means that, even if they've gone through the effort and they're not an utterly crap player, their success is still 9/10ths dependent on the overall skill and quality of the group. Just one or two bad players can ruin it for the rest of the group since the fights are so dependent on the group as a whole. If they're very lucky and are in a good guild they might be able to get into a group of at least 8 other players that are experienced and are willing to teach them the fight (or drag them through it until they get better). Most people wont have this advantage. Most people that have made it this far will try with a bad group, fail for a few hours, get frustrated at the lack of progress (whether it's their fault or not), be completely turned off by the lack of reward/satisfaction there is to be found in raiding, and then vow to never bother with raiding ever again.

 

Now that I've said all that, what do I think can be done to alleviate the problem?

 

Well, first and foremost, difficulty. If there are challenge difficulties for raids, why not have a newbie-mode? This mode could reduce the damage players take, decrease the health of the boss, outright remove more difficult mechanics or dumb them down so that they're easier to accomplish, make it so players have more/longer buffs, higher healing. Honestly there are so many ways to make the game easier I don't even think I need to continue. Ideally, newbie mode would still teach the mechanics of the fight without being too punishing. This means it would be a natural progression to doing the regular raids, as the regular raids natural progress to challenge mode. Rewards for newbie mode would be less than that of a regular raid (effectively so that running newbie mode would be a waste of time for anyone with enough experience), but should still be enough so that new players feel like they got SOMETHING for their effort (and if they are 100% casual and just want to stick to newbie mode forever, they should be able to EVENTUALLY earn all of the same rewards as people that do regular/challenge raids).

 

Second, encourage experienced players to teach new players. This could be done by adding a sort of mentor system to raids where someone that has completed a raid a certain number of times or has completed the challenge mode of a raid gets a bonus reward of some sort. This could be increased drops, bonus loot bags, more gold. All of the above? I'm sure other more interesting rewards could be thought of. The rewards probably shouldn't be unique (since not everyone is cut out to be a teacher) but they should not be so insignificant that experienced players wouldn't care about the bonus at all. Obviously there would need to be some sort of system in place to 'graduate' players out of newbie status - maybe once they've gotten a few kills on a boss they wouldn't be considered a newbie for that boss anymore (so the mentor bonus would not be a permanent thing without constantly taking on new players to mentor).

 

Lastly, I feel like the biggest barrier to entry (new builds / gear) should be (pretty much) removed completely. People should be able to demo or rent builds/gear for raids that are 'meta' so that they can try out a raiding build without committing to it and incurring significant costs. It'd be pretty much like renting a mount or the gear/build demo you get when you use an insta-80 boost and it takes you to the silverwastes. This would let people try out new roles in a raid and allow them to figure out what build suits them best that is also conducive to a positive raiding atmosphere. This should probably be limited in some way so that eventually people that want to keep raiding have to buy a new build and gear eventually (maybe only 'newbie' raiders can rent builds and once they graduate to a normal raider they have to buy their own gear?) Alternative they could make it so that you could flat out only rent gear a certain number of times or maybe just increase the cost over time.

 

Anyways, that's pretty much my '2 cents' on the issue as someone that would like to get into raiding but just doesn't have the time, resources, patience, etc. If getting into raiding in GW2 was just a little bit easier more people might actually try it instead of relegating it to the list of 'things I would like to, but probably never will, do'.

[Jockum.1385]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

>

> Yes they may not normally farm gold efficiently, but theres absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so for 1 hr. Raids need preparation anyway in the form of learning rotations and mechanics so 1 hr isnt alot to ask. [...]

>

> New players dont need scholar runes..they arent going to stay above 90% HP anyway. In this case, a budget rune would be fine.

>

> [....]

>

> If they have the free time to play gw2 whenever the schedule asks for, but still choose to only play 1 hr per week then again they really arent interested in the game at all and I dont see why anet should invest in them, especially over casual players who enjoy living world ect and play multiple times per week.

>

 

No, budget equipment is a really bad idea. For full exotic with good runes etc. it's maybe 8-10 hours for a more casual players. Which is roughly two months of playtime for such a player. That's a huge upfront investment, which is the problem.

Rotations, as you point out, are another problem. Which requires training. Training exclusivly for raids, lots of time on top of those hours of farming. Ideally you would've learned your rotations and equipped your char already for easier content. But for which easier content?

You are right: raids are not meant for casual teamplayers. GW2 also.

 

It's not "whenever the schedule asks for". It's not that difficult to set up a raid once a year. Once a week is a very different story. You can put a raid on a weekend, on a holiday etc. But yes, more teamoriented players have mostly stopped caring about GW2, because GW2 offers no content for them.

Even open world communities face the same problem, GW2community (EU) has shut down because there is not enough "open world community" content which requires a bit of organisation etc. GW2 is a singleplayer with an integrated chat and achievement comparision.

 

Players which play multiple times per week barely qualify as casuals anymore. Those are core- or hardcoregamers. Sure, Anet can choose which group they cater to. As a guildmate put it "why should I play a MMO solo" before he left the game. I get that GW2 isn't meant for guilds or teams, that's the reason why I always advise against buying GW2 when friends etc. ask. It's a pkayish singleplayer, but there is no shortage of better RPGs.

 

Anet is extremly slow at developing new content. That's a matter of tools and design choices. Nightfall was released half a year after factions and offered much more content than HoT.

[Vinceman.4572]

Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

[Tyson.5160]

It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

 

That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

[Grogba.6204]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

>

> That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

 

_But in other racing games they actually have to compete with racing players. Here they can be on top without having to try too hard_

[sigur.9453]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

>

> That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

 

Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> >

> > Yes they may not normally farm gold efficiently, but theres absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so for 1 hr. Raids need preparation anyway in the form of learning rotations and mechanics so 1 hr isnt alot to ask. [...]

> >

> > New players dont need scholar runes..they arent going to stay above 90% HP anyway. In this case, a budget rune would be fine.

> >

> > [....]

> >

> > If they have the free time to play gw2 whenever the schedule asks for, but still choose to only play 1 hr per week then again they really arent interested in the game at all and I dont see why anet should invest in them, especially over casual players who enjoy living world ect and play multiple times per week.

> >

>

> No, budget equipment is a really bad idea. For full exotic with good runes etc. it's maybe 8-10 hours for a more casual players. Which is roughly two months of playtime for such a player. That's a huge upfront investment, which is the problem.

 

A player who needs 2 months to get a basic set of exotic equipment is no wear near the target audience for neither fractals, raids or even dungeons.

 

There is a point in time where you have to realize, certain content will NEVER be for certain players. Time commitments are real, but to expect group content to be balanced around players who are not even participating in the game on a regular basis is off the mark.

 

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

 

This.

 

Players this casual have a thousand things they can and should do before they commit to group content.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

> >

> > That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

>

> Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

 

Did you ever do WoW raiding?

[sigur.9453]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

> > >

> > > That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

> >

> > Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

>

> Did you ever do WoW raiding?

 

Way back in vanilla. I'm old. 40 man squads, loved to hate.(it actually was awesome, nostalgia kicks in) But yeah, more a fan of action based combat now. They may have changed that, but well, it's not that eye pleasing anymore.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > It’s like the same people that say they only play GW2 for Raids and raids alone. There’s better games for if you love raiding.

> > >

> > > That’s like someone who loves racing games only plays GW2 for the beetle racing, it’s a bit absurd.

> >

> > Hi, I am one of those players. Sadly there is no game currently that can compete with Gw2 fight mechanics. Which is an important part for me. And the few raids we have here are awesome. Arguable not all of them. But rest assured, at the first glance of a raid focused game with equal or better "feeling" I will leave this, for you absurd state. A win win so you may call it.

>

> Did you ever do WoW raiding?

 

Wow raiding is boring for me + the simple idea that you can outgear encounter makes me stayvas farcas possible.

[Jockum.1385]

> @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

 

Your premise (haven't seen fractals) is wrong, so is your conclusion. Casual players/guilds do dungeons and fractals. They don't farm them. They don't know mechanics. AC1 might take 1 hour. But they were busy for one hour, had some fun, played together as a guild - and that what matters. These players ran out of content years ago. Raids are fine as they are, the lack of teamcontent isn't.

It actually baffles me that you think these players are not doing dungeons or fractals. Did you think all those complaints about zerk-meta some years ago were made by dungeon speedrunners? All those staffguards are all 300KP fractal CM players?

By my experience quite a lot are "casual or coregamer teamplayers". Maybe a hardcoreplayer with his girlfriend, who is playing very casually. A married couple. Some classmates or friends which are playing GW together. Two brothers. A father with his son. Stuff as this is normal. Most of GW2s content is not very satisfying for teams, it is designed to be done solo. Ofc it is questionable how many teamplayers are still left in GW2 at this point, similar as PVP or WvW players.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> A player who needs 2 months to get a basic set of exotic equipment is no wear near the target audience for neither fractals, raids or even dungeons.

>

> There is a point in time where you have to realize, certain content will NEVER be for certain players. Time commitments are real, but to expect group content to be balanced around players who are not even participating in the game on a regular basis is off the mark.

> [...]

> Players this casual have a thousand things they can and should do before they commit to group content.

 

Originally this thread was about a rift in the community, your comment and some others prove OP right. Just to point at a basic misunderstanding of you and vinceman: Guilds want to play together. A couple wants to play content together. They don't want to stick to singleplayer content, they bought a MMO. They could have choosen to play skyrim, they chose GW2 to play together. Teamcontent does not need to be difficult. GW1 was a good casual- and coregamer multiplayer game. GW2 is a singleplayer with nearly no teamcontent.

 

No, it's not only about 80 Gold or so for an exotic set. It's about an initial investment of time (=gold) which hinders players. It's about a terrible designed game which does not teach players "along the way" how to play and which equip to use. It's about a huge spontanous step instead of many small steps (usually called "learning curve"). It's about a game in which you have two completly separated communities, with zero knowledge about each others problems. It's about lacking content, which trains players to become better player, which turns one huge step into raids into many small steps. Content which is a bit more demanding for equip and teamplay, so players start to improve step by step.

Some players were also not able to do all teamcontent in GW1, but there were many other options available for them. In GW2 alternative teamcontent is seriously lacking.

 

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

>

> Your premise (haven't seen fractals) is wrong, so is your conclusion. Casual players/guilds do dungeons and fractals. They don't farm them. They don't know mechanics. AC1 might take 1 hour. But they were busy for one hour, had some fun, played together as a guild - and that what matters. These players ran out of content years ago. Raids are fine as they are, the lack of teamcontent isn't.

> It actually baffles me that you think these players are not doing dungeons or fractals. Did you think all those complaints about zerk-meta some years ago were made by dungeon speedrunners? All those staffguards are all 300KP fractal CM players?

> By my experience quite a lot are "casual or coregamer teamplayers". Maybe a hardcoreplayer with his girlfriend, who is playing very casually. A married couple. Some classmates or friends which are playing GW together. Two brothers. A father with his son. Stuff as this is normal. Most of GW2s content is not very satisfying for teams, it is designed to be done solo. Ofc it is questionable how many teamplayers are still left in GW2 at this point, similar as PVP or WvW players.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > A player who needs 2 months to get a basic set of exotic equipment is no wear near the target audience for neither fractals, raids or even dungeons.

> >

> > There is a point in time where you have to realize, certain content will NEVER be for certain players. Time commitments are real, but to expect group content to be balanced around players who are not even participating in the game on a regular basis is off the mark.

> > [...]

> > Players this casual have a thousand things they can and should do before they commit to group content.

>

> Originally this thread was about a rift in the community, your comment and some others prove OP right. Just to point at a basic misunderstanding of you and vinceman: Guilds want to play together. A couple wants to play content together. They don't want to stick to singleplayer content, they bought a MMO. They could have choosen to play skyrim, they chose GW2 to play together. Teamcontent does not need to be difficult. GW1 was a good casual- and coregamer multiplayer game. GW2 is a singleplayer with nearly no teamcontent.

>

> No, it's not only about 80 Gold or so for an exotic set. It's about an initial investment of time (=gold) which hinders players. It's about a terrible designed game which does not teach players "along the way" how to play and which equip to use. It's about a huge spontanous step instead of many small steps (usually called "learning curve"). It's about a game in which you have two completly separated communities, with zero knowledge about each others problems. It's about lacking content, which trains players to become better player, which turns one huge step into raids into many small steps. Content which is a bit more demanding for equip and teamplay, so players start to improve step by step.

> Some players were also not able to do all teamcontent in GW1, but there were many other options available for them. In GW2 alternative teamcontent is seriously lacking.

>

 

You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.

There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

 

You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

 

Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

 

If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

 

 

[irrimn.3192]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.

> There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

>

> You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

>

> Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

>

> If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

>

 

Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > Jockum. please be serious, the casuals you mention have never seen the fractal lobby from the inside before and most likely don't even know every dungeon by name. There's no need for Anet to bring raids to them when they don't even play other instanced content on a half- or semi-regular basis. If people don't try dungeons and/or fractals it's more than unplausible they will be interested in raids at all.

>

> Your premise (haven't seen fractals) is wrong, so is your conclusion. Casual players/guilds do dungeons and fractals. They don't farm them. They don't know mechanics. AC1 might take 1 hour. But they were busy for one hour, had some fun, played together as a guild - and that what matters. These players ran out of content years ago. Raids are fine as they are, the lack of teamcontent isn't.

> It actually baffles me that you think these players are not doing dungeons or fractals. Did you think all those complaints about zerk-meta some years ago were made by dungeon speedrunners? All those staffguards are all 300KP fractal CM players?

> By my experience quite a lot are "casual or coregamer teamplayers". Maybe a hardcoreplayer with his girlfriend, who is playing very casually. A married couple. Some classmates or friends which are playing GW together. Two brothers. A father with his son. Stuff as this is normal. Most of GW2s content is not very satisfying for teams, it is designed to be done solo. Ofc it is questionable how many teamplayers are still left in GW2 at this point, similar as PVP or WvW players.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > A player who needs 2 months to get a basic set of exotic equipment is no wear near the target audience for neither fractals, raids or even dungeons.

> >

> > There is a point in time where you have to realize, certain content will NEVER be for certain players. Time commitments are real, but to expect group content to be balanced around players who are not even participating in the game on a regular basis is off the mark.

> > [...]

> > Players this casual have a thousand things they can and should do before they commit to group content.

>

> Originally this thread was about a rift in the community, your comment and some others prove OP right. Just to point at a basic misunderstanding of you and vinceman: Guilds want to play together. A couple wants to play content together. They don't want to stick to singleplayer content, they bought a MMO. They could have choosen to play skyrim, they chose GW2 to play together. Teamcontent does not need to be difficult. GW1 was a good casual- and coregamer multiplayer game. GW2 is a singleplayer with nearly no teamcontent.

 

I think I have quite a bit better a grasp of what guilds do and don't than you considering I am in 3 very different guilds with players ranging from very casual (as you described) to very hardcore (5 raids per week).

 

This is the simple reality:

- players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not

- dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception

- the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

 

Again, you are litereally making things up as you go. Challenging content by its very name and design can never be for super casual players who do not have the time to invest into mastering their class. That's absolute stupidity.

 

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

>

> No, it's not only about 80 Gold or so for an exotic set. It's about an initial investment of time (=gold) which hinders players. It's about a terrible designed game which does not teach players "along the way" how to play and which equip to use. It's about a huge spontanous step instead of many small steps (usually called "learning curve"). It's about a game in which you have two completly separated communities, with zero knowledge about each others problems. It's about lacking content, which trains players to become better player, which turns one huge step into raids into many small steps. Content which is a bit more demanding for equip and teamplay, so players start to improve step by step.

 

Sure, the game should be teaching players better about how to play their class. I completely agree.

 

That has nothing to do with the fact that raid content is designed as difficult content (as difficult as Arenanet dare implement since compared to other MMO Raids it's not that difficult).

 

The content which gradually increases is called fractals. It's not Arenanets fault if a super casual player as you describe them goes credit card warrior and jumps strait into T4.

 

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

> Some players were also not able to do all teamcontent in GW1, but there were many other options available for them. In GW2 alternative teamcontent is seriously lacking.

>

 

Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added. The game is more casual friendly and offers more things to do for very casual players compared to GW1. You just said it yourself: in GW1 there was challenging content which people were unable to complete. Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end. That is not a rift since the fact that raid content exists has nothing to do with lacking team content.

 

On that notion, more difficult group content did and does exist. Yet every single time a more difficult world boss, living world episode, fractal or anything gets added, these forums light up with complaints that the game is to hard. That is not a rfit, that is part of a player base which does not want difficult content. That is not fault of raids. Calling this a rift is plain incorrect. It's diverging player interests at best, and you are never going to get people to play content they do not enjoy and should not force this.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"irrimn.3192" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.

> > There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

> >

> > You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

> >

> > Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

> >

> > If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

> >

>

> Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

 

Apply basic critical thinking and knowledge about limited resources and developer time. A limited scope and specific target audiences which need different catering too.

 

Then read again.

 

If you still can't see his point, you are definitely not a target audience which should be catered too or which it's worth catering to.

[irrimn.3192]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"irrimn.3192" said:

> > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.

> > > There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

> > >

> > > You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

> > >

> > > Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

> > >

> > > If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

> > >

> >

> > Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

>

> Apply basic critical thinking and knowledge about limited resources and developer time. A limited scope and specific target audiences which need different catering too.

>

> Then read again.

>

> If you still can't see his point, you are definitely not a target audience which should be catered too or which it's worth catering to.

 

I don't think you're actually using critical thinking if you agree that raids should be content catered to a very small, specific subset of the player population when you bring in the fact that there is limited resources, time, and scope. Shouldn't the devs not even bother with creating raid content at all then since it caters to 5% of the playbase? Shouldn't they instead spend all of their time and resources catering to the largest percentage of the playerbase possible so as to retain as many players for as long as possible?

 

Aside from your clearly flawed "critical thinking", adding an easy-mode to raids COULD be as easy and simple as tweaking some damage numbers and timers. It genuinely wouldn't take near as many devs as it does to create an entirely new raid from nothing, effectively re-purposing old content.

[yann.1946]

> @"irrimn.3192" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"irrimn.3192" said:

> > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.

> > > > There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

> > > >

> > > > You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

> > > >

> > > > Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

> > > >

> > > > If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

> >

> > Apply basic critical thinking and knowledge about limited resources and developer time. A limited scope and specific target audiences which need different catering too.

> >

> > Then read again.

> >

> > If you still can't see his point, you are definitely not a target audience which should be catered too or which it's worth catering to.

>

> I don't think you're actually using critical thinking if you agree that raids should be content catered to a very small, specific subset of the player population when you bring in the fact that there is limited resources, time, and scope. Shouldn't the devs not even bother with creating raid content at all then since it caters to 5% of the playbase? Shouldn't they instead spend all of their time and resources catering to the largest percentage of the playerbase possible so as to retain as many players for as long as possible?

>

 

The thought would be that the gain in retention of putting de raid resources to the largest population would be less then these 5% you keep by maintaining raids.

 

> Aside from your clearly flawed "critical thinking", adding an easy-mode to raids COULD be as easy and simple as tweaking some damage numbers and timers. It genuinely wouldn't take near as many devs as it does to create an entirely new raid from nothing, effectively re-purposing old content.

 

Their are 3 things wrong with this thinking.

 

- a good easy mode would almost never just be tweak some numbers.

-we don't know how hard it is to change these numbers + the required ui changes.

- you're forgetting the planning phase.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"irrimn.3192" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"irrimn.3192" said:

> > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > > > You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. You do not need scholar runes. Stop pretending you do.

> > > > There is no gear check at the start of raids that kicks you out of you arent running meta. Go try the raid in bad gear. Nothing stops you. Stop pretending it does.

> > > >

> > > > You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. Raids are for people looking for challenging repeatable content. Raids are not for your guild who will play them once on the holidays and then never go back. How many times has your guild repeated lair of the snowman?

> > > >

> > > > Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

> > > >

> > > > If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game. Casual content in this game is open world.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Sorry to say but everything you just said is further proof of the rift between experience raiders and casuals.

> >

> > Apply basic critical thinking and knowledge about limited resources and developer time. A limited scope and specific target audiences which need different catering too.

> >

> > Then read again.

> >

> > If you still can't see his point, you are definitely not a target audience which should be catered too or which it's worth catering to.

>

> I don't think you're actually using critical thinking if you agree that raids should be content catered to a very small, specific subset of the player population when you bring in the fact that there is limited resources, time, and scope. Shouldn't the devs not even bother with creating raid content at all then since it caters to 5% of the playbase? Shouldn't they instead spend all of their time and resources catering to the largest percentage of the playerbase possible so as to retain as many players for as long as possible?

 

That's exactly what they were and are meant to be though. Go read the implementation and raid announcement from Arenanet.

EDIT:

Here let me help you:

> Raids are 10-player, instanced, elite dungeon content that's a challenge unlike anything we've previously released in Guild Wars 2. These raids are meant to put you and your teammates to the test and challenge you to grow your skills as Guild Wars 2 players. Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat.

>

strait from the official website: https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids/

 

> @"irrimn.3192" said:

>

> Aside from your clearly flawed "critical thinking", adding an easy-mode to raids COULD be as easy and simple as tweaking some damage numbers and timers. It genuinely wouldn't take near as many devs as it does to create an entirely new raid from nothing, effectively re-purposing old content.

 

Wrong and this has been pointed out multiple times. Many bosses kill with do-or-die mechanics. There is no tweaking those mechanics since they require to be done correctly. I'm to tired to repeat the same things over and over ad nausea to someone who has 0 raid experience though. This has been covered before multiple times and any person interested in this topic who does some basic background checking would know this.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"irrimn.3192" said:

> Shouldn't they instead spend all of their time and resources catering to the largest percentage of the playerbase possible so as to retain as many players for as long as possible?

 

That's what the rest of the game is about. Then they spend some percentage of their resources to keep other types of players for as long as possible, this is called having a diverse game, to appeal to a diverse audience. If they only spend their resources to this so called largest percentage, they'd lose everyone else, which if you add them up, might be a real significant amount of players. A game's playerbase is a sum of the players that play the different types of content offered by it.

[Jockum.1385]

> @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. [...]

> You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. [....]

>

> Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

>

> If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game.

>

I really recommend to read this thread again and more carefully because you seem to lack the understanding of this topic here.

I know that GW2 is not meant for teamplayers or for me, but I already wrote this earlier. I personally have discouraged roughly 30 people from buying GW2 for this exact reason and I haven't bought PoF for the same reason. I'll do a bit WvW, some fractals - and when bored maybe some open world. But I'm not willing to invest money into a game like this anymore.

What you really should keep in mind: usually there are by far more casual and coregamers than hardcoreplayers. When there is a group of people which are playing team hardcorecontent as raids it is questionable to asume that there is no one who would play casual or coregamer teamcontent. When content for more casual players is not worth developing it (despite GW1 being a full game catering to exact these players) then raids are ofc also not worth it.

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

>

> This is the simple reality:

> - players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not

> - dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception

 

While it is true that quite a lot are only interested in solo content (see those threads asking for solomodes for dungeons etc.) there are also teamoriented players. How big each group is, is speculative since GW2 offers no teamcontent. To asume the amount of hardcoreplayers being bigger than the amount of casual- or coregamers is extremly optimistic. Usually there are by far more casuals. I think it's safe to asume that there are more players interested in casual group content than in hardcore group content as raids. It is also definately wrong to say "doing dungeons only once or twice = not interested in them". Many players also do story only once, too. But all of this aside:

If you have read forums in the past years you have for sure seen many threads asking for new dungeons, asking for new fractals, asking for easymode raids, asking for new guildmissions. More casual players are usually less engaged in a game and not as active in forums as hardcoreplayer.

I asume you have also seen all those threads complaining about zerg meta. Or too strict fractal requirements. Maybe you have also seen some of the threads where guilds/players said that GW2 has nothing to offer for them since dungeons are dead. There have been plenty of complaints, bc raids don't cover the needs of all former dungeon runners. So obviously there are players caring about easier teamcontent.

 

No, it is a rift by game design, as explained by me earlier. You simply should not have to recruit a open world player and have to teach him his class mechanics. This is a proof of a terrible designed game. A game should not be splitted into "does not need to know anything about his class mechanics in endgame content and still performs well (open world)" and "needs to know everything (raids)". There should be content in between closing this gap. Lots of content. It's called "learning curve", not "learning cliff". Many small steps form a curve, not one huge ass step from "111 in green equip" to "needs to know his class rotations and mechanics, boss mechanics and be full asc". There really should be something in between, it should not be necessary to explain basics as CC in raids.

 

Usually content is designed like a pyramid, a big basis of easy content for everyone and a small top of challenging content. You can climb up step by step, if you leave out the small top you still got access to 95% of all content. This goes for open world content (map completion is a lot, triple trouble or other challenging content is not 50% of all open world content). And this should also be true for group content. But it isn't. And that's a problem. Not only for the (imho) bigger crowd of casual- and core- teamplayers, it also results in less people advancing into raids and in consequence in less raid content bc too small playerbase to justify dev effort.

 

> - the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

Shows your lack of basic understanding. Grab a group of terrible open world players which struggle in T1 fractals and try to teach them more difficult content, especially raids. You'll be happy about each extra % of damage. Those who cleaned raids in greens are by far no "111 faceroll" noobs. If you think so you should probably debate that with the involved guilds and not with me. Maybe try to understand that good players are able to do stuff with a handicap. For a bad player an additional handicap is a problem. In theory bad/new players should have a by far better equipment to learn boss mechanics and the better they get the worse their equip can get to keep content interesting. Such "negative level ups" are afaik a theoretical concept in game design.

 

Teamcontent is not per se challenging content. That's nonsense. It wasn't about raids being meant as challenging content. That's ok. The serious lack of easier teamcontent is not ok and is a huge reason for this segregated community.

 

> Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added.

 

It's roughly 50%. I am refering here the whole time to teamcontent. Or should I now start counting PVP seasons as challenging content and start complaining about too much challenging content? There is no need for a new raids, bc there is a new pvp season? Is it this what you are claiming? Maybe try to understand that challenging content as triple trouble does not cater to raid players? Maybe try to understand that guilds want to play content together as a guild and GW2 offers nothing for such players? Open world content can't replace instanced teamcontent.

> Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end.

That's exactly what I said some posts earlier, yes. If HoT and PoF both would've added 10 new dungeons all of this would be a very different debate. But they didn't. Conclusion is: GW2 is not made for casual- or coregamers interested in teamcontent. If you got 3 friends and are looking for a MMO, GW2 is the wrong game for you. If you are looking for a MMO but want to play it without having to play with other players or having to team GW2 is doing a good job. But I personally think that such players should better stick with Skyrim etc., I'm also not asking for Battlefield to be turned into a racing sim.

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. [...]

> > You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. [....]

> >

> > Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

> >

> > If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game.

> >

> I really recommend to read this thread again and more carefully because you seem to lack the understanding of this topic here.

> I know that GW2 is not meant for teamplayers or for me, but I already wrote this earlier. I personally have discouraged roughly 30 people from buying GW2 for this exact reason and I haven't bought PoF for the same reason. I'll do a bit WvW, some fractals - and when bored maybe some open world. But I'm not willing to invest money into a game like this anymore.

> What you really should keep in mind: usually there are by far more casual and coregamers than hardcoreplayers. When there is a group of people which are playing team hardcorecontent as raids it is questionable to asume that there is no one who would play casual or coregamer teamcontent. When content for more casual players is not worth developing it (despite GW1 being a full game catering to exact these players) then raids are ofc also not worth it.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> >

> > This is the simple reality:

> > - players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not

> > - dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception

>

> While it is true that quite a lot are only interested in solo content (see those threads asking for solomodes for dungeons etc.) there are also teamoriented players. How big each group is, is speculative since GW2 offers no teamcontent. To asume the amount of hardcoreplayers being bigger than the amount of casual- or coregamers is extremly optimistic. Usually there are by far more casuals. I think it's safe to asume that there are more players interested in casual group content than in hardcore group content as raids. It is also definately wrong to say "doing dungeons only once or twice = not interested in them". Many players also do story only once, too. But all of this aside:

> If you have read forums in the past years you have for sure seen many threads asking for new dungeons, asking for new fractals, asking for easymode raids, asking for new guildmissions. More casual players are usually less engaged in a game and not as active in forums as hardcoreplayer.

> I asume you have also seen all those threads complaining about zerg meta. Or too strict fractal requirements. Maybe you have also seen some of the threads where guilds/players said that GW2 has nothing to offer for them since dungeons are dead. There have been plenty of complaints, bc raids don't cover the needs of all former dungeon runners. So obviously there are players caring about easier teamcontent.

>

> No, it is a rift by game design, as explained by me earlier. You simply should not have to recruit a open world player and have to teach him his class mechanics. This is a proof of a terrible designed game. A game should not be splitted into "does not need to know anything about his class mechanics in endgame content and still performs well (open world)" and "needs to know everything (raids)". There should be content in between closing this gap. Lots of content. It's called "learning curve", not "learning cliff". Many small steps form a curve, not one huge kitten step from "111 in green equip" to "needs to know his class rotations and mechanics, boss mechanics and be full asc". There really should be something in between, it should not be necessary to explain basics as CC in raids.

>

> Usually content is designed like a pyramid, a big basis of easy content for everyone and a small top of challenging content. You can climb up step by step, if you leave out the small top you still got access to 95% of all content. This goes for open world content (map completion is a lot, triple trouble or other challenging content is not 50% of all open world content). And this should also be true for group content. But it isn't. And that's a problem. Not only for the (imho) bigger crowd of casual- and core- teamplayers, it also results in less people advancing into raids and in consequence in less raid content bc too small playerbase to justify dev effort.

>

> > - the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

> Shows your lack of basic understanding. Grab a group of terrible open world players which struggle in T1 fractals and try to teach them more difficult content, especially raids. You'll be happy about each extra % of damage. Those who cleaned raids in greens are by far no "111 faceroll" noobs. If you think so you should probably debate that with the involved guilds and not with me. Maybe try to understand that good players are able to do stuff with a handicap. For a bad player an additional handicap is a problem. In theory bad/new players should have a by far better equipment to learn boss mechanics and the better they get the worse their equip can get to keep content interesting. Such "negative level ups" are afaik a theoretical concept in game design.

>

> Teamcontent is not per se challenging content. That's nonsense. It wasn't about raids being meant as challenging content. That's ok. The serious lack of easier teamcontent is not ok.

>

> > Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added.

>

> It's roughly 50%. I am refering here the whole time to teamcontent. Or should I now start counting PVP seasons as challenging content and start complaining about too much challenging content? There is no need for a new raids, bc there is a new pvp season? Is it this what you are claiming? Maybe try to understand that challenging content as triple trouble does not cater to raid players? Maybe try to understand that guilds want to play content together as a guild and GW2 offers nothing for such players? Open world content can't replace instanced teamcontent.

> > Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end.

> That's exactly what I said some posts earlier, yes. If HoT and PoF both would've added 10 new dungeons all of this would be a very different debate. But they didn't. Conclusion is: GW2 is not made for casual- or coregamers interested in teamcontent. If you got 3 friends and are looking for a MMO, GW2 is the wrong game for you. If you are looking for a MMO but want to play it without having to play with other players or having to team GW2 is doing a good job. But I personally think that such players should better stick with Skyrim etc., I'm also not asking for Battlefield to be turned into a racing sim.

 

I will agree with you that guild wars 2 has a terrible learning curve within the game itself. This is exacerbated by the fact that there exists no content in the game where hardcore and casual players mix well. Dungeons used to fill this role of bridging the gap. The difficulty requirements were low enough to be accessible and created a space where you could learn tactics and class mechanics organically from more experienced players that pugged into your party. Nowadays we have t4 fractal groups devoid of most skilled players because they're all in 100kp cm groups or in raids.

 

I dont think easy mode versions of existing raids is the answer either since those rewards have been for the most part skill gates (blah blah blah raid sellers) but content like lair of the snowmen I'd love to see more of to help bridge the gap.

[rabenpriester.7129]

I don't know how all of you guys in here find the time to write so much but don't find the time to learn raids.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"rabenpriester.7129" said:

> I don't know how all of you guys in here find the time to write so much but don't find the time to learn raids.

 

Post from Work.. it's not hard.

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Jockum.1385" said:

> > @"zombyturtle.5980" said:

> > You do not need 80g exotics to play raids. Stop pretending you do. [...]

> > You guild barely even plays dungeons. Raids are not for them. [....]

> >

> > Anet should not invest in instanced content for players who will never go back to it. They are better off investing in living story.

> >

> > If you hate the game so much because there is not alot of forced instanced content for casuals. Then you should find another game.

> >

> I really recommend to read this thread again and more carefully because you seem to lack the understanding of this topic here.

> I know that GW2 is not meant for teamplayers or for me, but I already wrote this earlier. I personally have discouraged roughly 30 people from buying GW2 for this exact reason and I haven't bought PoF for the same reason. I'll do a bit WvW, some fractals - and when bored maybe some open world. But I'm not willing to invest money into a game like this anymore.

> What you really should keep in mind: usually there are by far more casual and coregamers than hardcoreplayers. When there is a group of people which are playing team hardcorecontent as raids it is questionable to asume that there is no one who would play casual or coregamer teamcontent. When content for more casual players is not worth developing it (despite GW1 being a full game catering to exact these players) then raids are ofc also not worth it.

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> >

> > This is the simple reality:

> > - players as casual as you describe are 99% of the time not interested in raids, fractals or dungeons. Dungeons being the hail-marry exception when they do a path 1nce a year with other guildies. IF they do dungeon paths, most do not

> > - dungeons are not raids. Dungeons and low rank fractals do not require any type of setup. High level fractals (CMs specifically) and raids require specific setups and a minimum knowledge and understanding of ones class. By your own admission this is not present with super casual players. That is not a rift, that is content designed for a different type of player, from the conception

>

> While it is true that quite a lot are only interested in solo content (see those threads asking for solomodes for dungeons etc.) there are also teamoriented players. How big each group is, is speculative since GW2 offers no teamcontent. To asume the amount of hardcoreplayers being bigger than the amount of casual- or coregamers is extremly optimistic. Usually there are by far more casuals. I think it's safe to asume that there are more players interested in casual group content than in hardcore group content as raids. It is also definately wrong to say "doing dungeons only once or twice = not interested in them". Many players also do story only once, too. But all of this aside:

> If you have read forums in the past years you have for sure seen many threads asking for new dungeons, asking for new fractals, asking for easymode raids, asking for new guildmissions. More casual players are usually less engaged in a game and not as active in forums as hardcoreplayer.

> I asume you have also seen all those threads complaining about zerg meta. Or too strict fractal requirements. Maybe you have also seen some of the threads where guilds/players said that GW2 has nothing to offer for them since dungeons are dead. There have been plenty of complaints, bc raids don't cover the needs of all former dungeon runners. So obviously there are players caring about easier teamcontent.

>

> No, it is a rift by game design, as explained by me earlier. You simply should not have to recruit a open world player and have to teach him his class mechanics. This is a proof of a terrible designed game. A game should not be splitted into "does not need to know anything about his class mechanics in endgame content and still performs well (open world)" and "needs to know everything (raids)". There should be content in between closing this gap. Lots of content. It's called "learning curve", not "learning cliff". Many small steps form a curve, not one huge kitten step from "111 in green equip" to "needs to know his class rotations and mechanics, boss mechanics and be full asc". There really should be something in between, it should not be necessary to explain basics as CC in raids.

>

> Usually content is designed like a pyramid, a big basis of easy content for everyone and a small top of challenging content. You can climb up step by step, if you leave out the small top you still got access to 95% of all content. This goes for open world content (map completion is a lot, triple trouble or other challenging content is not 50% of all open world content). And this should also be true for group content. But it isn't. And that's a problem. Not only for the (imho) bigger crowd of casual- and core- teamplayers, it also results in less people advancing into raids and in consequence in less raid content bc too small playerbase to justify dev effort.

>

> > - the gear you described is not even required for raids. Raids have been cleared in greens. Even if

> Shows your lack of basic understanding. Grab a group of terrible open world players which struggle in T1 fractals and try to teach them more difficult content, especially raids. You'll be happy about each extra % of damage. Those who cleaned raids in greens are by far no "111 faceroll" noobs. If you think so you should probably debate that with the involved guilds and not with me. Maybe try to understand that good players are able to do stuff with a handicap. For a bad player an additional handicap is a problem. In theory bad/new players should have a by far better equipment to learn boss mechanics and the better they get the worse their equip can get to keep content interesting. Such "negative level ups" are afaik a theoretical concept in game design.

>

> Teamcontent is not per se challenging content. That's nonsense. It wasn't about raids being meant as challenging content. That's ok. The serious lack of easier teamcontent is not ok and is a huge reason for this segregated community.

>

> > Raid content in GW2 makes up approximately 5% of all content added.

>

> It's roughly 50%. I am refering here the whole time to teamcontent. Or should I now start counting PVP seasons as challenging content and start complaining about too much challenging content? There is no need for a new raids, bc there is a new pvp season? Is it this what you are claiming? Maybe try to understand that challenging content as triple trouble does not cater to raid players? Maybe try to understand that guilds want to play content together as a guild and GW2 offers nothing for such players? Open world content can't replace instanced teamcontent.

> > Your problem is not with the design or difficulty of raid content, it's with lacking alternatives on the lower end.

> That's exactly what I said some posts earlier, yes. If HoT and PoF both would've added 10 new dungeons all of this would be a very different debate. But they didn't. Conclusion is: GW2 is not made for casual- or coregamers interested in teamcontent. If you got 3 friends and are looking for a MMO, GW2 is the wrong game for you. If you are looking for a MMO but want to play it without having to play with other players or having to team GW2 is doing a good job. But I personally think that such players should better stick with Skyrim etc., I'm also not asking for Battlefield to be turned into a racing sim.

 

They invest in raids to keep hardcore players playing regularly and spending money regularly. Thats literally the only purpose of raids. Without raids, most of those players would leave the game out of boredom and stop spending.

 

Casual players dont NEED instanced content to keep their interest in game, for the most part. While it would be nice for them to have most casual instanced content, living story is enough to keep the majority spending. Therefore anet wont invest more money in content that wont give a significant return. Yes they may lose some paying customers, but 30 customers are nothing to them in the long term.

 

Even if they did choose to make more casual instanced content, you fully admit your guildies would probably play it once and then never go back, like you have done with fracs and dungeons. This is a massive problem for anet as the whole purpose of raids, and therefore for new casual instanced content would be to keep players returning REGULARLY. If you dont return regularly to play it, its wasted.

 

Again, 10-20 dungeons is a ridiculous estimation. There were only 8 dungeons at launch. 2-3 would be more realistic for an expansion.

 

There is also plenty of content that casual games can do as a team. Hero point runs, bountys, group metas ect. But they are not forced to be in a team to complete it. Anet chose this path as it pleases both sides.

 

And once again, I wouild also like more dungeons. But anet has been clear. No more dungeons.