Fix mirage, don't nerf

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > > > Cloak needs to be tied to EM, exhaustion 2 or 3 secs as a cost.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Boom fixed

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is dumb. Mirage having a 2-3 automatic exhaustion on all dodges at all times would make it straight up unviable.

> > > > >

> > > > > i mean if it breaks stun, not just because

> > > >

> > > > The op doesn't say anything about dodging CC.

> > > >

> > > > Mirage cloak just needs to be restricted on CCs that prevent dodging. Remove stunbreak on Elusive Mind, replace it with something else like Mirage Cloak let's you strafe and move backwards at full speed. Done.

> > >

> > > Stop with the useless backward full speed bs.

> >

> > Dude imagine scepter ambushing directly at a person at super speed away from them. It'd be awesome. If you think that's useless, you're probably not very bright.

>

> Sounds like a dream of backpeddlers

 

Back when Fresh Air Weaver was almost viable one of their coolest capabilities was able to take huge counter bursts on people while super speeding away from them.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > If mirage cloak would be tied to EM, wouldn't that make IH a nonsense trait?

> >

> > On the exhaustion bit, exhaustion doesn't work on mirage, mirage doesn't have the tools to deal with it like thief, if ANet wants to stay on the exhaustion approach then deception skills must grant endurance back.

>

> mirage should be accountable for cc's

>

> you can still cloak without EM if stunned.

>

> getting caught without stunbreak cooldowns with a well placed stunned shouldn't be negated. a price should be paid.

>

> make ambush tied to dodge roll regardless as it is with cloak and increase the time for use by 1 or 2 seconds, then match the IH skill to fit the change, clones will still use the ambush skill

>

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > Do you realy think its possible to „fix“ mirage/mesmer?

> >

> > Believe me, Mesmer could be nerfed below the ground and people would continue to post „Mesmer is op“ .

>

> Not really seeing a lot of mesmer or chrono posts nowadays though. Huh, I wonder if this quote is true?

 

(Why didnt your respond show up like others? Wierd)

 

Yeah, i think Mirage would have been more accurate.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Back when Fresh Air Weaver was almost viable one of their coolest capabilities was able to take huge counter bursts on people while super speeding away from them.

Because lots of skills that have no cast/no animation/900-1500 cast abilities that being casted backwards WHILE not backpeddling but running straight away . In case of scepter that would be backpeddling and need to look at your target

[Kumouta.4985]

Against a chrono, mes, holo or boonbeast i can attack back and even bring countermeasures.

Mirages evade while doing their burst. You can do nothing against them or their damage before they vanish into the horizon with their absurd mobility. At most i'll get in a couple of lucky hits or down an inexperienced one while they're stealthed. But a mirage who plays well, well...

The class is OP. And honestly i'm a little tired of looking at all the nerf mes threads and seeing the same old 'l2p' or 'no its fine', when it's clear the majority thinks it isn't balanced at all and Anet loves the class so much. Arrogant one trick pony mirages in PvP should be knocked down a peg with the nerf sledgehammer, straight to the insane idea of allowing this ridiculous elite and evade mechanic and easybake burst to exist all in one place.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Buff all mes's nerf necros

[flog.3485]

Too many clones are being summoned on average during a “fight”.

The biggest culprit imo would be the sword ambush skill. Speaking of sword itself, allowing a sustainy/damaging weapon to have two sources of clones is too much imo. Or I don’t know, having the clone summoned only if you are standing far enough from your target. Other than that, one is enough and talking about rebalancing, it would be better to have the opportunity to summon 2 clones on sword 3 with a small increase on cd of course.

 

For axe skills, axe 3 does a bit too much as well. If they feel like axe 3 absolutely needs to keep the teleport/detarget ability, maybe it would be best to add a cost of energy for the skill to trigger.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

From solely this thread:

Mirage mobility is op, even if other professions have more, excluding portal.

Clone spawning is too much.

Evade while attack is op, plenty of skills do this but whatever.

Mirage cloak shouldn't allow to evade while cced.

So your suggestion (Op) wouldn't fix a thing.

I, on the other hand have the perfect fix - give mirage the hp and damage of a clone.

[Tiah.3091]

> @"Bazsi.2734" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > Cloak needs to be tied to EM, exhaustion 2 or 3 secs as a cost.

> >

> > Boom fixed

>

> Are you propositioning to only give mirage their currently baseline dodge when picking a specific grandmaster? It really sounds like you are, holy kitten.

>

> Yeah lets just ignore that nothing about mirage works without Mirage Cloak being baseline. Seriously, take a look at mirage traits and ambush attacks. Just one example: Infinite Horizon gives your clones Mirage Cloak when you gain it, but you can only gain MC if you pick another grandmaster...

>

> "Boom fixed" LOL. People suggesting balance changes without even knowing what it would do if implemented.

>

> Here is a fix that would actually make sense WITHOUT RUINING AN ENTIRE ELITE SPEC: Make mirage unable to dodge when CC-d without picking EM. Currently most CC-s only last as long as an evade-frame from a dodge, so even if you eat some CC that sets up a spike, you can just dodge. You won't break the stun sure, but you cover the incoming burst with an evadeframe anyway. THIS is why mirage is so strong in the hands of even unskilled players. Take this cheese away, and you can even reverse half of the nerfs to the spec, it would be better than where we are now.

>

>

 

I mainly play power mirage, and I could agree, that it would be a very decent change. **BUT ONLY IN ONE CASE**. If they simultaneously nerf the CC chain on some of the classes. Spellbreaker and Holo - that's who I'm talking about.

Because CC itself is good and fun, as a part of pvp mechanics. Even as powerful, as 2s stun every 15 seconds. You stunbreak the first one, now keep in mind he has 2nd coming soon, so be good and dodge it. That's engaging and reactive gameplay.

 

But CC chains, like that of the Holo - Shokwave, Rifle, Lightbeam - fuck that. That is shitty mechanics and you can shove "but light beam is an ulti" argument deep up your arse.

 

Seriously, WHY THE FUCK this game after 6 years still doesn't have a diminishing returns on CC is beyond my understanding.

[incisorr.9502]

mirage is good as it is, it doesn't need a fix as it is one of the least played classes on high elo and there's a reason for that.

 

""fixing"" mirage cloak sounds like destroying the entire concept of the class in the first place

[StabbersTheThird.6053]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> Do you realy think its possible to „fix“ mirage/mesmer?

>

> Believe me, Mesmer could be nerfed below the ground and people would continue to post „Mesmer is op“ .

 

 

Long essay incoming, tldr at the bottom. This is my subjective opinion, and in no way is meant to be argumentative (because people get mad when I talk =/):

 

That's just because Mesmer has the consistent ability to become immune or act when no action should be taken. It creates a frustrating experience. Add onto that, Mesmer is highly capable of "omegalul 1 shot" builds and you just have a disaster recipe. If Mesmer was more about consistently and rapidly whittling and opponent down (much as I hate condi Mirage, it's the better design), then it would be less frustrating. But when you can press f1-f4 (f5 with chronomancer build) while stunned which gives you blinds or a daze or deals damage or gives you an iframe, or dodge while still taking any action you want along with that dodge providing so many benefits (a clone, a reflect, a blur that lets you keep using abilities/can be used mid cast unlike EVERY other dodge) it becomes fairly unfun to play against. Worse yet, Mesmer has additional passive get out of jail free (stealth on ouch damage) or "I don't want to do this now" (when stunned, reflect the stun) traits it's entirely possible for most Mesmer builds to become nearly impossible to interact with. You always fight on the Mesmer terms, and the only trade offs are "what terms do I want".

 

That isn't to say I can't respect Mesmer, Mirage, or Chronomancer (definitely Chrono in pvp)- it's just that I really don't want to take the time to set up my mental library for "do they have a dodge, a stealth, did I break enough passives, are any of their class abilities up, can I stun them safely, what abilities do they have, what time do they have til they swap weapons, what utilities are gone" for every time you engage. Compare this to Warrior ("big dumb brute" warrior) "do they have a dodge, did I break enough passives, what abilities do they have have, what utilities are gone". Warrior doesn't stun you back for getting stunned, doesn't have the ability to murder you mid dodge, doesn't have a bunch of get out of jail free cards, and doesn't have stealth. They are oppressive anyway, but it doesn't feel like I had no chance. It's always "alright, well if I hadn't eaten that Full Counter or that Bull Rush I might have done better". Mesmer is mentally back-tracking "where in this 5 dimensional chess match did I mess up" and sometimes not finding an answer.

 

 

At least that's my perspective as someone who played Tempest into Mesmer, Mirage, and Chronomancer. As the person who now just plays one shot thief, none of this matters. I just calculate what amulet you are probably using when I throw Dag 4 at you (no one ever reacts to this for some reason...), then how much set up I need to take your hp all the way down between either A-Signet+Cnd+Bs or Dev Venom+Palm Strike+Haste(haste from my traits, thank god for that). And I would absolutely say that this type of build is almost as annoying to play against as one shot mesmer. Difference being, I use everything to one shot someone. Mesmer uses 2 or 3 utilities and an ability and a class skill, then still has an entire weapon set available, 3 class skills, a heal, and an ultimate (assuming it's the Gs2+3 with Blink+Clone+Shatter combo, it might have changed).

 

 

 

**Anyway, long essay. Tldr: Mesmer is "op" because it is not remotely fun to play against because they are nearly impossible to punish. It's also extremely difficult to realize what you could have done ~mechanically~ better in a fight with a Mesmer as it is hidden behind clones, stealth, iframes, and various boons/conditions with multiple abilities per second. Compared to Spellbreaker which is actually overpowered, I would rather fight a Mesmer. Against Spellbreaker, I just track "what did I do wrong mechanically". From the self-improvement and feeling of having a good engage (I shouldn't be worried that if I hit you for being unaware, I will be punished more than you), Mesmer is always the worst. Of course, this is subjective.**

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> mirage is good as it is, it doesn't need a fix as it is one of the least played classes on high elo and there's a reason for that.

>

> ""fixing"" mirage cloak sounds like destroying the entire concept of the class in the first place

 

it is broken, it needs fixin.

 

if non-accountability for stuns, pulls, launches, that kind of strong cc is something core to the specialization without tying it to a GM at a price, that's broken.

 

broken.

 

the game isn't balanced around the top 50.

 

if you are in the top 50, and you don't see them that often, then it should not be a problem for a nerf. you won't even miss them, and it's possible you can't make that

assessment about the class.

 

Unless, of course you are maining it :trollface:

 

perhaps the top 50 like playing the other broke classes that have been called out in this forum

 

 

[incisorr.9502]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > mirage is good as it is, it doesn't need a fix as it is one of the least played classes on high elo and there's a reason for that.

> >

> > ""fixing"" mirage cloak sounds like destroying the entire concept of the class in the first place

>

> it is broken, it needs fixin.

>

> if non-accountability for stuns, pulls, launches, that kind of strong cc is something core to the specialization without tying it to a GM at a price, that's broken.

>

> broken.

>

> the game isn't balanced around the top 50.

>

> if you are in the top 50, and you don't see them that often, then it should not be a problem for a nerf. you won't even miss them, and it's possible you can't make that

> assessment about the class.

>

> Unless, of course you are maining it :trollface:

>

> perhaps the top 50 like playing the other broke classes that have been called out in this forum

>

>

 

 

im playing and enjoying it and you want it to be completely destroyed with some random unreasonable nerfs only because you don't want to learn to play against it, like the better players in this game have learned to

 

there's accountability for stuns and pulls, it's called stamina and it runs out and it's also the main source of damage for mesmer so if you force a mesmer to use dodge during stun then he can't do damage to you cause the main damage in the meta is from infinite horizon(dodges), shatters (have always been a thing and have long cds). On top of that the dodge duration doesn't last as long as the cc so you can still get hits, unless he dodges twice, in which case hes completely dead if focused

 

 

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > @"incisorr.9502" said:

> > > mirage is good as it is, it doesn't need a fix as it is one of the least played classes on high elo and there's a reason for that.

> > >

> > > ""fixing"" mirage cloak sounds like destroying the entire concept of the class in the first place

> >

> > it is broken, it needs fixin.

> >

> > if non-accountability for stuns, pulls, launches, that kind of strong cc is something core to the specialization without tying it to a GM at a price, that's broken.

> >

> > broken.

> >

> > the game isn't balanced around the top 50.

> >

> > if you are in the top 50, and you don't see them that often, then it should not be a problem for a nerf. you won't even miss them, and it's possible you can't make that

> > assessment about the class.

> >

> > Unless, of course you are maining it :trollface:

> >

> > perhaps the top 50 like playing the other broke classes that have been called out in this forum

> >

> >

>

>

> im playing and enjoying it and you want it to be completely destroyed with some random unreasonable nerfs only because you don't want to learn to play against it, like the better players in this game have learned to

>

> there's accountability for stuns and pulls, it's called stamina and it runs out and it's also the main source of damage for mesmer so if you force a mesmer to use dodge during stun then he can't do damage to you cause the main damage in the meta is from infinite horizon(dodges), shatters (have always been a thing and have long cds). On top of that the dodge duration doesn't last as long as the cc so you can still get hits, unless he dodges twice, in which case hes completely dead if focused

>

>

 

each dodge is on a 20 second cd without vigor, but that's not the only source of defense.

 

for example, if I pull a mirage and they dodge, perhaps their skill are cycling, but they stop being pulled to me. if it's a 1200 pull and they stop it 1/3 or 1/2 way. what a waste for me

 

if you have a launch with a followup, what a waste for me

 

 

no many players, including the "better" ones have also pointed out flaws and needs for nerfs.

 

The only "better players" that say l2p are mirage mains.

 

 

 

It's not the damage, it's not the kit.

 

Cloak is the problem. It should only work to evade strong strong cc when tied to EM, and at the cost on their endurance regen.

 

 

It's not random, or unreasonable.

 

It is the most logical fix.

 

mirage has great mobility too, and like I said other defense. They are not "dead" if they dodge twice

 

 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> and at the cost on their endurance regen.

 

Just commenting on this bit _again_.

Exhaustion doesn't work on mirage. It works on DD because DD has access to endurance gain skills.

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > and at the cost on their endurance regen.

>

> Just commenting on this bit _again_.

> Exhaustion doesn't work on mirage. It works on DD because DD has access to endurance gain skills.

 

yes it does. exhaustion takes a 20 second dodge recharge and make it 23-24 seconds

 

 

it works. the point is to put a longer time between uses.

 

i wish UC broke stuns, I wouldnt care about exhaustion at all

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

UC makes you immune to moviment impairing conditions.

What if DD physical skills and signet got endurance gain removed? Would you think it was still fine?

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> UC makes you immune to moviment impairing conditions.

> What if DD physical skills and signet got endurance gain removed? Would you think it was still fine?

 

If it broke stun, yes. Very much a yes yes

[Daishi.6027]

Here is a thought, bait dodges by stowing after you stun expecting them to evade.

 

Game isn't played in a vacuum, you can play around mechanics, mirage evade options are on par with most of the cast and still lose out to most medium classes.

 

Not a perfect analogy but cooldown systems are kind of like a card game, force your opponent to run out of options by making good trades.

 

Granted Condi mirage gets a little to much output with the synergy to blinds, but people complaining about it's evasiveness are just wrong or playing wrong.

 

But hey I'd be fine with nerfs that standardized evasive options across all classes. So NO class can dodge more than twice with the same regen, every class had *ONE* evasion on a single weapon, and one more option either tied to a utility skill or class mechanic.

[Sampson.2403]

Mesmer isn't broken at all anymore. It was broken earlier this year, for sure, but the last few batches of nerfs have put it in check.

 

What's broken IMO is Revenant and Soulbeast.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"FaboBabo.3581" said:

> > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > > > > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > > > Cloak needs to be tied to EM, exhaustion 2 or 3 secs as a cost.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Boom fixed

> > > > >

> > > > > This is dumb. Mirage having a 2-3 automatic exhaustion on all dodges at all times would make it straight up unviable.

> > > >

> > > > i mean if it breaks stun, not just because

> > >

> > > The op doesn't say anything about dodging CC.

> > >

> > > Mirage cloak just needs to be restricted on CCs that prevent dodging. Remove stunbreak on Elusive Mind, replace it with something else like Mirage Cloak let's you strafe and move backwards at full speed. Done.

> >

> > Stop with the useless backward full speed bs.

>

> Dude imagine scepter ambushing directly at a person at super speed away from them. It'd be awesome. If you think that's useless, you're probably not very bright.

 

Not interested. Way too situational.

I dont kite , i hunt.

[FaboBabo.3581]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > and at the cost on their endurance regen.

> >

> > Just commenting on this bit _again_.

> > Exhaustion doesn't work on mirage. It works on DD because DD has access to endurance gain skills.

>

> yes it does. exhaustion takes a 20 second dodge recharge and make it 23-24 seconds

>

>

> it works. the point is to put a longer time between uses.

>

> i wish UC broke stuns, I wouldnt care about exhaustion at all

 

10 seconds per dodge.

6 seconds endurance is a 60% endurance loss. It Works on dazes , so it punishes dodging while dazed. What class gets punished by dodging while dazed ?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

remove both exhaustion and vigor from mirage, put a 20sec icd on riddle of sand, nerf dumb torch burns, remove 2 stacks of confusion from axe 3 and maybe take off a second of torment from axe 2 and increase cd by 2. take off a stack and a second of duration from imaginary axes.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> remove both exhaustion and vigor from mirage, put a 20sec icd on riddle of sand, nerf dumb torch burns, remove 2 stacks of confusion from axe 3 and maybe take off a second of torment from axe 2 and increase cd by 2. take off a stack and a second of duration from imaginary axes.

 

Lets make small breakdown. Vigor patheticly low lasts 1.5s on shatter which cooldowns are 12-25-38-60s .You really going to cry about it ? I can mention permavigor on holo without any effort and s/d thief just rofling on evades and getting improved permavigor. Every trait that have 5s vigor and 10s cd untouched but mesmer is now 3/10 because people like you beg for nerfs like its tradition to whine about mesmer for years.

Riddle of sands ...what? Just ...what? Why ? 2stacks for 2 seconds its too op ? Probably -3s cd on elite per dodge spam on permavigor is need a buff ,because riddle of sands absurdly op !

Torch burns were nerfed alrdy . Hi.

Why confusion on axe should be removed? If anything they need to fix this skill to be able normally function and hit targets instead of being dumb skill that fail to be used because of terrain and being unable to hit running targets in most cases.

If anything axe 2 need a buff , preferably increase power damage and cast speed ,its patheticly weak skill.

 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"tinyreborn.1938" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > remove both exhaustion and vigor from mirage, put a 20sec icd on riddle of sand, nerf dumb torch burns, remove 2 stacks of confusion from axe 3 and maybe take off a second of torment from axe 2 and increase cd by 2. take off a stack and a second of duration from imaginary axes.

>

> Lets make small breakdown. Vigor patheticly low lasts 1.5s on shatter which cooldowns are 12-25-38-60s .You really going to cry about it ? I can mention permavigor on holo without any effort and s/d thief just rofling on evades and getting improved permavigor. Every trait that have 5s vigor and 10s cd untouched but mesmer is now 3/10 because people like you beg for nerfs like its tradition to whine about mesmer for years.

> Riddle of sands ...what? Just ...what? Why ? 2stacks for 2 seconds its too op ? Probably -3s cd on elite per dodge spam on permavigor is need a buff ,because riddle of sands absurdly op !

> Torch burns were nerfed alrdy . Hi.

> Why confusion on axe should be removed? If anything they need to fix this skill to be able normally function and hit targets instead of being dumb skill that fail to be used because of terrain and being unable to hit running targets in most cases.

> If anything axe 2 need a buff , preferably increase power damage and cast speed ,its patheticly weak skill.

>

 

so you would rather keep the vigor with the exhaustion? makes no sense lol. all the rest are minor shaves which the class clearly needs, if you cant see that (not saying my ideas are good) then youre obviously biased.

[tinyreborn.1938]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

Wait...what ? What vigor with exhaustion?:D

You mean EM? This trait need rework. I dont understand your suggestion here then XD

No I cant see that . I'm not biased at all . You havent seen biased people then . I wont call name but his code name MisterCrabs and he is just only one, there way more of them