zergkillers as a roamerteam

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said:

> Your numbers are wrong. Thief venoms have only a few charges and will hit each player only once. Their dmg is negligible in an aoe situation. Barrage hits 2x per second, so with the leeching from rev and predators cunning you are looking at about 1,4k life leech dmg per second. Multiply by 3 and it becomes 4,2k/s. Not impressive at all, especially when considering that the dmg will be spread among different players, because of the aoe cap and constant movement. This combo will only tickle an average zerg, even if you add additional skills and the power dmg itself. Meanwhile 50 people only need to sneeze into your direction once and your "zergkillers" willl be dead on the ground.

>

> Aoe caps and the downstate mechanic favour numbers too much for 5-10 vs 50 to be a thing, no matter the classes, builds and skill(s).

Not to mention he seems to assume that zergs cant heal, dodge, see or otherwise attack enemies at all.

 

The thing is, people *have* tried small groups to beat zergs and sometimes it work, most time it dont. But they're not going to use rangers or thief that would fall to a single reflect or a rev sneezing in their direction. They use bunkerwithzerkerdps spellbreakers, boon chronos, stunlock holos, spinforthewin reapers, frontline firebrands and more builds that make them very tough in melee so they can pressure and break uncoordinated enemy groups. Rangers pewpewing wont break groups.

 

Which is why I would like to see this in practice, not a theorycrafted fantasy.

[xp eke xp.6724]

On barrage i calc the venom hits 1x each enermie if you hit 5.

Just look at top. But poison triggers everytime the trait, also by sharing venom:

 

Means if we hit 2x at first sec we do:

3x predators cunning

1x venom

2x soulcleaver's summit

 

Calc it again pls, oh and might/ other buffs on power stats count for lifeleech so on buildeditor are these numbers correct. Btw maybe sigil of flame should be used also cause it would trigger soulcleavers summit.

 

But its right that it can happen, that you hit different players by barrage. On that case it's little more difficult to use it on right situation, maybe too hard to practice....

 

Last thing: one wolf pact triggers only ones at all (means by aoe on one enermie)... but vulure stance triggers each enermie, cause it has an intern cd on enermie instead of the user, thats why i count each hit as poison and give you might ;) => predators cunning leeched aoe

 

If it wouldn't work on this way, i would try this on another way like using engie with grenades or shredder gyro or other fast multiple hits

 

@dawdler

We know there are more defenses then boon on zergs, but you want to see it also on practice, to see if it really does enough work on zergs.

 

On my theory i told you what i think you need minimal to get a zerg small at time, but on the calcs you have a double to tripple chance to get the minimum depending on how good you land the bursts, so they can do mistakes or play around other defense options as long they don't perma reflect ;)

[xp eke xp.6724]

What doesn't work is to poison enermies with Devourer Venom and the thieftrait for your allies (so no lifeleech)

 

I also tested vipers nest or poison volley. Vipers nest triggers at all (without stances) 9x predators cunning and the shortbow only 5x even if you traided it (buildeditor lied that you poison at all 10x...)

 

But they can't be timed that well with rev

[UmbraNoctis.1907]

I actually forgot about vulture stance icd and just tested it - the cd is global and not per enemy, so it becomes useless for aoe too. Which leaves rev's life steal as only "aoe capable" life leech dmg in your setup. You are looking at about 1-1,5k leech dmg per second, that's not going to do anything against a zerg. But (lack of) dmg isn't even the problem when fighting heavily outnumbered against big zergs. Downing a few players is easy (albeit not with barrage and life steal). Actually finishing them off without dieing yourself is the issue. And you haven't provided any solution to that problem.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"UmbraNoctis.1907" said:

> > Your numbers are wrong. Thief venoms have only a few charges and will hit each player only once. Their dmg is negligible in an aoe situation. Barrage hits 2x per second, so with the leeching from rev and predators cunning you are looking at about 1,4k life leech dmg per second. Multiply by 3 and it becomes 4,2k/s. Not impressive at all, especially when considering that the dmg will be spread among different players, because of the aoe cap and constant movement. This combo will only tickle an average zerg, even if you add additional skills and the power dmg itself. Meanwhile 50 people only need to sneeze into your direction once and your "zergkillers" willl be dead on the ground.

> >

> > Aoe caps and the downstate mechanic favour numbers too much for 5-10 vs 50 to be a thing, no matter the classes, builds and skill(s).

> Not to mention he seems to assume that zergs cant heal, dodge, see or otherwise attack enemies at all.

>

> The thing is, people *have* tried small groups to beat zergs and sometimes it work, most time it dont. But they're not going to use rangers or thief that would fall to a single reflect or a rev sneezing in their direction. They use bunkerwithzerkerdps spellbreakers, boon chronos, stunlock holos, spinforthewin reapers, frontline firebrands and more builds that make them very tough in melee so they can pressure and break uncoordinated enemy groups. Rangers pewpewing wont break groups.

>

> Which is why I would like to see this in practice, not a theorycrafted fantasy.

 

And that would be because it doesn’t work. (Which I know you know.)

 

It might have worked on an EOTM Zerg back in the day when it was a leveling zone, but in WvW main? It would have to be a PUG Zerg with no coordination to have ANY hope. And even then, not likely.

[xp eke xp.6724]

So they fixed vulture stance (dang!)..

Ty umbranoctis!

 

I'll gona calc know if the lifeleech +powerdmg can be enough, if not there is no really chance to attack bigger zergs on this way. But you can also tell me alternatives to use the soulcleaver's summit i see a huge potential on this skill.

 

Btw. The solution was allways in the idea itself there:

- use stealth to get chances of a burst

- break somehow the strong defences, so the burst does enough

- try to get an non mapspecial strategy

- need far less resources (players) to get a significant advantage

- get high chances to use the burst

- being on save situations

 

That was allways necessary to get a chance for pressure zergs on my thoughts.

- Without stealth you can't get close

- if you can't break the dmg reduction and passive heal the burst dmg needs to be higher (at this case ridiculous higher!)

- if you can practice it on most situations they can't play so easy around

- if you need the same/ close to the same ressources it's not a punish

- you need a backup to ceep pressure

- resporn cost both sides too much, so it has to be worth. And if you can't land your burst, it's more like a bonusdmg then the main burst.

 

If we don't find a way to use a 5-10 man team to get that goal, it's maybe a small zerg needed, but it's hard to find enough players that want to try new things out :'(

[shiri.4257]

Blackgate defined the roaming meta. It's 15 minimum for proper small ops.