Mirage: a summary

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

> Let's be honest. Clone casting ambush attacks is not and will not be a viable playstyle in PvP, WvW or fractal/raids. Such mechancis serves no purpose other than limiting the capability of ambush attacks.

 

I'll be honest. Clone ambushes have formed the basis of a lot of the builds i've been testing lately, some of them even successful.

[Exciton.8942]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > Let's be honest. Clone casting ambush attacks is not and will not be a viable playstyle in PvP, WvW or fractal/raids. Such mechancis serves no purpose other than limiting the capability of ambush attacks.

>

> I'll be honest. Clone ambushes have formed the basis of a lot of the builds i've been testing lately, some of them even successful.

 

Sorry I don't believe.

 

Hopefully you can prove me wrong by sharing your successful attempts in the future.

[Coulter.2315]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

> I am hoping for this:

>

> Make IH baseline. Remove clones ability to cast ambush attacks.

>

> Improve ambush attacks.

>

> Let's be honest. Clone casting ambush attacks is not and will not be a viable playstyle in PvP, WvW or fractal/raids. Such mechancis serves no purpose other than limiting the capability of ambush attacks.

 

The mechanic is there to make Mirage a unique playstyle, this is what we should be aiming for. Asking for another 3 phantasm and autoattack spec is madness.

 

If we can get a clone/shatter build that does equivalent or better DPS than the current duelist phant build would you agree with aiming for that goal? And do you understand why it is important to have an elite spec which provides that playstyle?

[Cantatus.4065]

I'd be disappointed if they removed IH. Like Coulter said, it's one of the things that makes that spec unique. I'd rather they make it baseline and balance Mirage with that in mind. It's one of the reasons I've been having a lot of fun with the spec; removing it would make it feel too much like everything else we can do. And while you can't reliably fool people in PvP, it's not uncommon that I've been able to do it. Even if it's only for a split second, any time I can buy in PvP can be useful.

[Exciton.8942]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > I am hoping for this:

> >

> > Make IH baseline. Remove clones ability to cast ambush attacks.

> >

> > Improve ambush attacks.

> >

> > Let's be honest. Clone casting ambush attacks is not and will not be a viable playstyle in PvP, WvW or fractal/raids. Such mechancis serves no purpose other than limiting the capability of ambush attacks.

>

> The mechanic is there to make Mirage a unique playstyle, this is what we should be aiming for. Asking for another 3 phantasm and autoattack spec is madness.

>

> If we can get a clone/shatter build that does equivalent or better DPS than the current duelist phant build would you agree with aiming for that goal? And do you understand why it is important to have an elite spec which provides that playstyle?

 

But the reality is they will never make clones dps as high as phantasms.

 

Also, relying clones give you the same dilemma as relying phantasm. Do you want to use your phantasms skills any more? Being locked out of phantasm skills is just as annoying as being locked out of clone generating skills.

 

For PvP/WvW, relying on clones is also not a good idea because they all die to one autoattack or any random cleaving. And keeping them up means you don't shatter which is again a self-limiting playstyle.

[Coulter.2315]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

> > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > > I am hoping for this:

> > >

> > > Make IH baseline. Remove clones ability to cast ambush attacks.

> > >

> > > Improve ambush attacks.

> > >

> > > Let's be honest. Clone casting ambush attacks is not and will not be a viable playstyle in PvP, WvW or fractal/raids. Such mechancis serves no purpose other than limiting the capability of ambush attacks.

> >

> > The mechanic is there to make Mirage a unique playstyle, this is what we should be aiming for. Asking for another 3 phantasm and autoattack spec is madness.

> >

> > If we can get a clone/shatter build that does equivalent or better DPS than the current duelist phant build would you agree with aiming for that goal? And do you understand why it is important to have an elite spec which provides that playstyle?

>

> But the reality is they will never make clones dps as high as phantasms.

>

> Also, relying clones give you the same dilemma as relying phantasm. Do you want to use your phantasms skills any more? Being locked out of phantasm skills is just as annoying as being locked out of clone generating skills.

>

> For PvP/WvW, relying on clones is also not a good idea because they all die to one autoattack or any random cleaving. And keeping them up means you don't shatter which is again a self-limiting playstyle.

 

Clones and Phantasms are vastly different in availability, I am surprised you're pretending there is any sort of equivalence. Phantasms come from weapon skills (just one per weapon set) with a recharge >10secs, Clones come from weapon skills with recharge <8sec (sometimes multiple skills on the same weapon set), dodging (the focus of the mirage), multiple utilities, ambushes, sceptre auto. With the increased rate of clone generation and the fact YOU control when they do damage you get to weave shatters through your assault. This is what Mirage should be and what I would ask people to aim for in their critiques/suggestions, a flow of clone damage and shattering - totally distinct from any sustained damage spec mesmer has had before (and frankly how I believe anet hoped the class would be played, but they screwed up a little there).

 

Also since you're shattering you can still summon phantasms for a burst and this will encourage anet to fancy up the phantasm extra summon effect too :D

[Levetty.1279]

I'm honestly surprised people are arguing against Coulter. Its fairly obvious they wanted mirage to be a clone spec and the only reason it ended up as a replacement for Chaos in the standard 3 duelist set up is because of how half assed and poorly thought out the spec is. We have had enough actual use of the 3 duelist build to know thats its both boring and not particularly good outside of a handful of battles because of mechanical deficiencies, no matter how high it gets on Golem testing. If through balance patches they actually complete this play style and we end up with a clone focused spec doing high dps and possibly even letting us weave shatters into it it would be the one high point of this joke of a spec as it will be vastly more usable then phantasms. I of course support anything that brings more damage back to the Mesmer instead of the illusions though.

 

No clones don't last long in WvW but neither do phantasms, Mirage isn't going to be a spec good at WvW anyway and unless the next elite spec is SoulPhantasm we never will be.

 

That said, whether they leave IH as is, make it baseline or delete it entirely I wouldn't expect buffs to ambush attacks outside maybe QoL stuff for staff.

[Dondagora.9645]

Indeed, I like Mirage for moving toward Clone Specs. What I want to see, however, is either increasing the survivability of clones in a practical sense, make use of their wide availability, or being able to up their DPS or make them more useful all around to a decent level. Right now, Mirage is a clone spec that you have a single trait to boost your clones. I'd like them to dive deeper in the clone direction. And I'm not counting Self-Deception, since that's just clone generation (which is widely available anyway) on underwhelming Deception skills.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

> > @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > > Let's be honest. Clone casting ambush attacks is not and will not be a viable playstyle in PvP, WvW or fractal/raids. Such mechancis serves no purpose other than limiting the capability of ambush attacks.

> >

> > I'll be honest. Clone ambushes have formed the basis of a lot of the builds i've been testing lately, some of them even successful.

>

> Sorry I don't believe.

>

> Hopefully you can prove me wrong by sharing your successful attempts in the future.

 

Mirage Thrust (Sword Ambush) is pretty good at doing 3 things when you have IH traited.

1. Generating a clone

2. Positioning your clones next to the enemy

3. chewing through passive defensive boons like stability and aegis in order to land a brief daze (which turns into a 1 second stun with domination line).

 

This makes IH sword ambush amazing for a power shatter build (having 3 clones plus yourself next to a guy that you just stunned is a recipe for success with the increased shatter damage trait in domination and the increased crit damage trait in dueling), and pretty useful for an interrupt build (you won't interrupt anything important with it, but you will usually land some, and it can chew through stability to let your easier to land interrupts hit).

[Curunen.8729]

> @Coulter.2315 said:

> > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > > @Coulter.2315 said:

> > > > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > > > I am hoping for this:

> > > >

> > > > Make IH baseline. Remove clones ability to cast ambush attacks.

> > > >

> > > > Improve ambush attacks.

> > > >

> > > > Let's be honest. Clone casting ambush attacks is not and will not be a viable playstyle in PvP, WvW or fractal/raids. Such mechancis serves no purpose other than limiting the capability of ambush attacks.

> > >

> > > The mechanic is there to make Mirage a unique playstyle, this is what we should be aiming for. Asking for another 3 phantasm and autoattack spec is madness.

> > >

> > > If we can get a clone/shatter build that does equivalent or better DPS than the current duelist phant build would you agree with aiming for that goal? And do you understand why it is important to have an elite spec which provides that playstyle?

> >

> > But the reality is they will never make clones dps as high as phantasms.

> >

> > Also, relying clones give you the same dilemma as relying phantasm. Do you want to use your phantasms skills any more? Being locked out of phantasm skills is just as annoying as being locked out of clone generating skills.

> >

> > For PvP/WvW, relying on clones is also not a good idea because they all die to one autoattack or any random cleaving. And keeping them up means you don't shatter which is again a self-limiting playstyle.

>

> Clones and Phantasms are vastly different in availability, I am surprised you're pretending there is any sort of equivalence. Phantasms come from weapon skills (just one per weapon set) with a recharge >10secs, Clones come from weapon skills with recharge <8sec (sometimes multiple skills on the same weapon set), dodging (the focus of the mirage), multiple utilities, ambushes, sceptre auto. With the increased rate of clone generation and the fact YOU control when they do damage you get to weave shatters through your assault. This is what Mirage should be and what I would ask people to aim for in their critiques/suggestions, a flow of clone damage and shattering - totally distinct from any sustained damage spec mesmer has had before (and frankly how I believe anet hoped the class would be played, but they screwed up a little there).

>

> Also since you're shattering you can still summon phantasms for a burst and this will encourage anet to fancy up the phantasm extra summon effect too :D

 

Fully agreed.

 

This unique playstyle should be supported as it is what makes mirage different from chrono and core Mesmer.

 

Instead of all this hate towards IH, really phantasms should be changed (functioning like renegade spirits and being separate from the illusion counter and shattering).

 

The playstyle of clone ambush into shatter into ambush etc with a good amount of repositioning and deception (yes it can provide a few seconds where even good players will not instantly retarget you) is not only fun, it is refreshingly different from the insanely boring shatterspam of chrono in pvp or summoning 3 phantasms and do two other attacks for the rest of the fight in pve.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I want a viable power mirage build through a trait that will make make exactly one clone, no more than one clone, into a "real" clone that will do the same damage and weapon skills as me. So using 2 phantasms and that 1 clone will be most efficient way to play. Thus bringing allowing the use of sword generating skills without them being a huge dps loss. Making phantasms and clones work together is a much better than having a bunch of unused weapon skills because they generate clones.

[bart.3687]

Yeah, after playing with IH a little, I agree that it has a unique flavor. Don't remove it.

 

I'd make it baseline, and throw the 1st traitline in Mirage out of the window and replace it with clone improving traits (e.g., more health for clones, more damage, and maybe even on clone death trait?)

[Carighan.6758]

I think I'd rather see that pick as a GM trait, @"bart.3687" . Simply because it allows for more interesting traits:

 

* *Perfect Illusion*: Your clones now use all weapon skills available to them, randomly. They also use your equipped healing skill. They deal 20% of your damage.

* *Infinite Madness*: If an illusion is destroyed, a mirage is created at its location for 1,5s if it died and 4s if it was shattered. If an enemy is nearby when the mirage expires, a clone is summoned.

* *Maybe I was the illusion all along*: If you would take lethal damage, swap health and position with a clone, which dies in your stead. This effect can only happen once every X seconds.

 

So basically, one improves clone offense, one uses them for defense, and one gives you a near-infinite supply of them. Since IH would be baseline, I don't think the latter trait would be inherently weaker than the other two.

[LiesAndErr.2085]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

> I think I'd rather see that pick as a GM trait, @"bart.3687" . Simply because it allows for more interesting traits:

>

> * *Perfect Illusion*: Your clones now use all weapon skills available to them, randomly. They also use your equipped healing skill. They deal 20% of your damage.

> * *Infinite Madness*: If an illusion is destroyed, a mirage is created at its location for 1,5s if it died and 4s if it was shattered. If an enemy is nearby when the mirage expires, a clone is summoned.

> * *Maybe I was the illusion all along*: If you would take lethal damage, swap health and position with a clone, which dies in your stead. This effect can only happen once every X seconds.

>

> So basically, one improves clone offense, one uses them for defense, and one gives you a near-infinite supply of them. Since IH would be baseline, I don't think the latter trait would be inherently weaker than the other two.

 

Pretty cool ideas, but the first one's got me thinking: If you're using a weapon that has a clone generating skill (aka all of them), then that would create a lot of.... issues.

 

The second one is something I can get behind, but if it were implemented they would probably place some sort of cd on it. Overall it would definitely keep the constant stream of clones, since spamming deceptive evasion mirage cloak definitely isn't optimal for survival purposes but remains an option.

[Cantatus.4065]

> @Carighan.6758 said:

 

> * *Maybe I was the illusion all along*: If you would take lethal damage, swap health and position with a clone, which dies in your stead. This effect can only happen once every X seconds.

>

 

Something like this would make a really cool additional shatter for us: When used, you appear to shatter and you and all of your clones swap places. Maybe even have it where you swap whatever debuffs/buffs are on you with a clone. Having it be a shatter would give us a little more power over when it's used, which means we could use it strategically, and I do wonder if having it trigger on our death might be a little too powerful since it could effectively double our health.

 

But then, I really want some sort of shatter interaction with Mirage.