KryTiKaL.3125 Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > >Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment. > > > > > > > > > > The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug. > > > > > > > > ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: > > > > > > I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is: > > > > > > 1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing. > > > > > > 2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more. > > > > > > Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens. > > > > > > > > > > In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff. > > > > > > > > > > I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal. > > > > > > > > > > As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal *more* when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it. > > > > > > > > As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary. > > > > > > > > You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best. > > > > > > If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me. > > > > > > I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter. > > > > > > In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way . > > > > > > In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time. > > > > > > In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly. > > > > > > As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played. > > > > > > When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on. > > > > > > I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results. > > > > They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP. > > > > I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do *something*, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build. > > > > I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting. > > > > Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days). > > > > You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to *learn* about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill. > > This is the generic Warrior topic. The question was asked as to why warriors do not use other heals. This is not the PvP topic and the op did not ask why other heals not used in Pvp. > > The builds I mention work better then "decently" in WvW. I do not Pvp and do not care for that mode as the MODE shapes the builds and the design of that format too heavily forces a role (such as theif made for +1 and decap). The limited array of trinkets , runes and the like further limits what used in a build. If there three cars one wants to test and one is a dragster, one a formula 1 car and one an off road vehicle , forcing all three into running a race on a 1/2 mile straightaway does not prove the dragster "the best car". > > The builds I refer to work better then "decently". Part of what makes them work better for me is the heal which i decide to use and it not always HS. > > You resort to ad hominem and personal insutls to make your case. I offered up an opinion as to the utility of other heals in various builds and you took that as a personal attack. If I state I preferred the original Total Recall movie to the remake and you prefer the remake it not arrogance to suggest the first better and it not wrong to suggest that maybe a person should SEE the movie first before reading other reviews all claiming the remake was better. And I've said I'd like to see that shown, or at least witness it for myself and then I'd give more credence to what you're saying. I never disagreed that those heals have their own utility depending on the circumstances, and I had been approaching this from the OPs statement about wanting to main Warrior in pvp (this can mean sPvP or WvW). I will admit that I took a few shots at you, sure, but the statement on arrogance was not a personal attack. It was an observation. Note that I never disagreed on the utility of the heals, I disagreed with your logic when you spoke about your build concepts because I don't feel that these builds you describe are able to perform as adequately as others that are classified as more "meta". Essentially I dislike the logic you apply in practical application because I don't personally see it working as well as you claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > >Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment. > > > > > > > > > > > > The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug. > > > > > > > > > > ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: > > > > > > > I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is: > > > > > > > 1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing. > > > > > > > 2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more. > > > > > > > Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal *more* when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it. > > > > > > > > > > As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary. > > > > > > > > > > You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best. > > > > > > > > If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me. > > > > > > > > I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter. > > > > > > > > In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way . > > > > > > > > In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time. > > > > > > > > In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly. > > > > > > > > As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played. > > > > > > > > When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on. > > > > > > > > I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results. > > > > > > They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP. > > > > > > I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do *something*, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build. > > > > > > I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting. > > > > > > Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days). > > > > > > You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to *learn* about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill. > > > > This is the generic Warrior topic. The question was asked as to why warriors do not use other heals. This is not the PvP topic and the op did not ask why other heals not used in Pvp. > > > > The builds I mention work better then "decently" in WvW. I do not Pvp and do not care for that mode as the MODE shapes the builds and the design of that format too heavily forces a role (such as theif made for +1 and decap). The limited array of trinkets , runes and the like further limits what used in a build. If there three cars one wants to test and one is a dragster, one a formula 1 car and one an off road vehicle , forcing all three into running a race on a 1/2 mile straightaway does not prove the dragster "the best car". > > > > The builds I refer to work better then "decently". Part of what makes them work better for me is the heal which i decide to use and it not always HS. > > > > You resort to ad hominem and personal insutls to make your case. I offered up an opinion as to the utility of other heals in various builds and you took that as a personal attack. If I state I preferred the original Total Recall movie to the remake and you prefer the remake it not arrogance to suggest the first better and it not wrong to suggest that maybe a person should SEE the movie first before reading other reviews all claiming the remake was better. > > And I've said I'd like to see that shown, or at least witness it for myself and then I'd give more credence to what you're saying. I never disagreed that those heals have their own utility depending on the circumstances, and I had been approaching this from the OPs statement about wanting to main Warrior in pvp (this can mean sPvP or WvW). I will admit that I took a few shots at you, sure, but the statement on arrogance was not a personal attack. It was an observation. Note that I never disagreed on the utility of the heals, I disagreed with your logic when you spoke about your build concepts because I don't feel that these builds you describe are able to perform as adequately as others that are classified as more "meta". Essentially I dislike the logic you apply in practical application because I don't personally see it working as well as you claim. I had much this same type of conversation with another a little over a year ago where I suggested a warrior did NOT have to take Endure pain. I suggested there were utilities that would work better then one that worked for 4 seconds out of 60. I received much the same response as you gave from another who claimed I had no clue as to what i was talking about , that it bad advice and that every warrior build in the meta used the skill. Here we are a year later and even in that same meta there a number of builds that have dropped it. When I suggest there alternatives to something like healing Signet or Endure pain , it hardly means those are bad skills and should not be taken. It is no slight on the people that decide they want to take those skills. All it means is there are alternatives that do in fact work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > >Yes Poison can dampen passive heals and thieves can frequently apply it. I only run into this as an issue when running into condi thieves, but even then as a Core Warrior I've still had enough cleanses/resistance available to be able to handle it and still kill the thief. Also counting dodges and blocks. Yes in another thread I did call for a change to Rune of Tormenting because of the heals when used by Condition builds because kitten was bugged and healed the user when any condition was applied not just Torment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The thread on rune of tormenting made it very clear that people were aware of the BUG from the start and I in fact mentioned that the seeming OP nature of Torment was based on that bug and that when it addressed the rune would be fine. I do not recall you stating that it OP because of that bug. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Right thats what I said. I said they needed to fix the bug, the bug got fixed. No problems now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > > > > > > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said: > > > > > > > > I think the main two reasons why people still prefer healing signet over mending when running strength is: > > > > > > > > 1. Mending's cast time is long enough where it is very easily interrupted by good players and the common strength/disp/spb warrior has very limited access to stability prior to healing. > > > > > > > > 2. Often when you need an emergency condi cleanse and use your healing, the 6s of resistance is typically more beneficial than the 3 condi clear. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If mending cast time was brought down to 0.5s or maybe even 0.75s i think you'd see it played more. > > > > > > > > Healing signet also pairs very well with the strength warrior due to its evasiveness. As you are dodging, use G3, using leaps on sword, you are constantly being healed/re-sustained as opposed to waiting for a cooldown that can be interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is coming from a conquest perspective btw, maybe in 2v2s you'd run mending but not sure. 1v1s mending is solid as you have a lower chance of being interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The warrior signet heal is also semi unique in that it has no "do X to get the heal" on its passive, it just happens. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words , it easier. I tend to play thief more then any other build and because withdraw can not be interrupted it one of the favored heals among thieves. That does not make it the BEST heal. It just means you have one less thing to worry about when you need to heal up. There are many thief builds that use other heals (in particular channled vigor). Thief does not have stability or blocks meaning Channled vigor easier to interrupt. Those using CV play around that buy utilizing other skills to ensure the heal not interrupted. More difficult, yes, but there is a payoff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would also point out the Active of HS has one of the longest cast times of any Warrior heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As to the the fact HS activates no matter what given it a passive, there also a downside to this. As mentioned before this means poison on a warrior is also always actively inhibiting a heal each and every second with one single stack. When I am on thief facing warrior using HS my poison even in a power build is more effective then facing a warrior using an alternate heal. That poison does not have to be on 100 percent of the time either. if I have it applied 50 percent of the time against a warrior relying on passive heals (adrenal , HS) then 50 percent of the time those heals effectivness cut by a third. So while it in fact easier not having to worry about activating a passive because it always on , it also easier for the enemy to compromise that heal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For starters, yes in other words its "easier" in the same way that its "easier" to heal with Withdrawal on Thief, in the same way that its easier to heal with Shelter on Guardian, easier to heal with Glint heal on Revenant, easier to heal *more* when using Monk's Focus on Guardian, and so on. Now see the logic you're applying here to thief, in the vein that Thieves use other skills to ensure the heal is not interrupted you can apply to Warriors using other skills to give Healing Signet an opportunity to heal you for a bit. For instance, Shield Stance block Duration is 3 seconds, pair that with an immediate swap into greatsword after the block to cast greatsword 3 and you have had at least 4 seconds of healing from Healing Signet, it ticks every 1 second. Thats 344 x 4 = 1,376. Also taking into account kiting, or using line of sight, or other skills the Warrior has available and you are healing for even more. Now pair that with Adrenal Health and the passive health regeneration is very strong. The other heal skills on Warrior are useful in certain circumstances, Mending can help sometimes and To The Limit is a beefy heal with a relatively short CD, but despite that Healing Signet is still the most solid choice for Warrior because of the utilities it has available to it. > > > > > > > > > > > > As someone else said as well, poison is a factor but its not nearly active enough to warrant swapping Healing Signet out for Mending in general circumstances. In a 1v1 vs a condi thief that is kiting a lot and just applying poison, sure that would be a situation where Mending could be used over Healing Signet. However I've run into that before and the players I've faced that have done that didn't force me into swapping out Healing Signet for Mending. I could have and then maybe would have had an easier time dealing with them, but I still didn't feel it was necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're even saying yourself that you play thief more than any other so I have to question your ability to actually implement your theory over the actual theory itself. In theory maybe it sounds right in your head, but in practice people are trying to tell you that its not entirely accurate and its circumstantial at best. > > > > > > > > > > If I play a build and test it in a game , It is not a theory. How hard is this for you to understand? This is not in my head. I take the builds INTO the game and play them. This is why I have three warriors and why I have 6 thieves. Each is different and each plays differently and each has a different selection of skills which I test over and over again to find the one that works best for me. > > > > > > > > > > I do not play one type of build. I play multiples and it is not hard to assess how each plays out in game. I understand thief very well and so when designing a warrior and playing with a warrior against a thief know exactly what that thief does not want to see in a warrior and what things my warrior can do to counter that thief. By the same token I recognize that a given thief or warrior build I have will perfrom differently against different thief or warrior builds I might encounter. > > > > > > > > > > In my variants of warrior I have one that is the typical warrior build. This build is designed around sustain and fights can drag out for some time. In this build HS works best. When I substitute in other heals they do not work as well. I get instant feedback this way . > > > > > > > > > > In a second warrior build, this one predicated on Conditions and sustain through activated heals, I have TRIED healing signet and found that compared to Mending or to the limit HS underperfroms. The build is much more successful using those other two heals. It simply a matter of slotting one in for another and measuring its success/failure rate over a given period of time. > > > > > > > > > > In a third warrior build, this one built around power, I switch equally between Mending and HS. This depends very much on whether I am with a small group, running solo or in a Zerg. While typically I do not zerg fight I do find that different utilities chosen are more Zerg friendly and different ones are more solo friendly. > > > > > > > > > > As I stated before , in power builds the advantages of Healing Signets better manifest themselves in longer fights. If a Fight ends in 15 seconds and I am dead or the enemy dead , HS did little and in such a fight if I am on the receiving end of high burst damage, I am better off with a fatter heal that can keep me in a fight rather then one that will allow me a few seconds more of life. In fights that last longer it is the second 15 seconds and third 15 seconds where HS becomes more effective. The reasons for this are simple exercises in mathematics coupled with how the game is played. > > > > > > > > > > When I am doing these tests to satisfy my own curiousity, I do not just run one build for a few hours in order to arrive at my conclusions. I will run a particular build for days in a row trying to make it work and changing up my style so as to ensure I am maximizing what I am able to do with it. I have plenty of time. I am not concerned if I get downed and have to start again. After every down whether I down an enemy or am the victim of one , I port back to a WP and pore through the logs to see what got me , what tells i missed and so on. > > > > > > > > > > I am going to suggest that they very PRESENCE of a metabattle site where people want to run to to get "the best build" demonstrates to me that many do not have the patience for this sort of gameplay. They want instant results. > > > > > > > > They "run" to it because its a good starting point. It helps you learn the strengths and weaknesses of your class because these builds are among the most solid that classes have access to and people run things other than the builds listed under "meta" specifically. Core builds as an example still work very well for some classes and are mostly still used in WvW but more rarely used in sPvP. > > > > > > > > I'm sure your builds work decently, I wouldn't dispute that. I see enough condi Berserkers or sometimes even Condi spellbreakers running around to know that they can sometimes be around and do *something*, but more often than not they fall completely flat up against a good player using one of, or a variant of, a build from Metabattle. Or I should say more accurately, a more meta oriented build. > > > > > > > > I almost exclusively play Core Warrior in WvW, even in groups, because its what I enjoy however I will swap into Spellbreaker in more group oriented fights and I will swap around Utility skills as needed to things that more suit what is needed in the fight. However I don't drastically try to reinvent the wheel, Warrior's strength is due to several factors. One is its mobility which is pretty much exclusive to Greatsword, thats why its used in pretty much any build you see. The Tetherbreaker build for Spellbreaker has the added benefit of the Sword 2 leap but even then it still uses greatsword. Second is its "invuln" states; Endure Pain, Defy Pain, Full Counter and Block (assuming unblockables aren't at play). These give the Warrior's method of sustain, usually Adrenal Health paired with Healing Signet, opportunities for them to heal and stay in the fight. Sometimes Mending is used should they need a more on demand heal with a short cooldown and some extra condi cleanse but thats typically in very specific circumstances. Otherwise these tools are what the Warrior thrives the best on while its best sustain is essentially locked behind playing with a sort of "passive aggressive" playstyle since those burst skills getting dodged can lead to a Warrior's swift death or early kiting. > > > > > > > > Condi Warrior isn't that strong in PvP due to it being associated with the very clunky Sword burst skill and Berserker being the "condi" spec for the class, yet it does not perform it well in PvP and the Berserker spec just isn't as great as it used to be even with a Power setup sadly (I do miss those days). > > > > > > > > You're free to run what you want, but I've been where you are with that whole mindset of "Meta is dumb" and "I don't need it, I can figure it all out myself" and its just plain arrogance. You're essentially trying to discredit the testing done by the individuals who post these builds while trying to say your testing is more appropriate or better because its you doing it and "you know better" and the people using meta builds are just looking for instant gratification. Which you know you're not entirely wrong there, people definitely gravitate towards these builds because they maybe see a youtuber or streamer using them and they want to emulate the success they see from that content creator, but more often than not they simply believe that running the build itself will make them better and that isn't true, they forget that they need to *learn* about why it is a strong build and improve mechanically in the game before they can emulate what they saw in a video. However that doesn't lower the value of using meta builds to learn, improve and then begin to experiment based on what you've learned by playing a build that is built upon the best strengths of a class. You're more easily able to diverge and find what can work for you and still allow you to fulfill the role that you should fill. > > > > > > This is the generic Warrior topic. The question was asked as to why warriors do not use other heals. This is not the PvP topic and the op did not ask why other heals not used in Pvp. > > > > > > The builds I mention work better then "decently" in WvW. I do not Pvp and do not care for that mode as the MODE shapes the builds and the design of that format too heavily forces a role (such as theif made for +1 and decap). The limited array of trinkets , runes and the like further limits what used in a build. If there three cars one wants to test and one is a dragster, one a formula 1 car and one an off road vehicle , forcing all three into running a race on a 1/2 mile straightaway does not prove the dragster "the best car". > > > > > > The builds I refer to work better then "decently". Part of what makes them work better for me is the heal which i decide to use and it not always HS. > > > > > > You resort to ad hominem and personal insutls to make your case. I offered up an opinion as to the utility of other heals in various builds and you took that as a personal attack. If I state I preferred the original Total Recall movie to the remake and you prefer the remake it not arrogance to suggest the first better and it not wrong to suggest that maybe a person should SEE the movie first before reading other reviews all claiming the remake was better. > > > > And I've said I'd like to see that shown, or at least witness it for myself and then I'd give more credence to what you're saying. I never disagreed that those heals have their own utility depending on the circumstances, and I had been approaching this from the OPs statement about wanting to main Warrior in pvp (this can mean sPvP or WvW). I will admit that I took a few shots at you, sure, but the statement on arrogance was not a personal attack. It was an observation. Note that I never disagreed on the utility of the heals, I disagreed with your logic when you spoke about your build concepts because I don't feel that these builds you describe are able to perform as adequately as others that are classified as more "meta". Essentially I dislike the logic you apply in practical application because I don't personally see it working as well as you claim. > > I had much this same type of conversation with another a little over a year ago where I suggested a warrior did NOT have to take Endure pain. I suggested there were utilities that would work better then one that worked for 4 seconds out of 60. I received much the same response as you gave from another who claimed I had no clue as to what i was talking about , that it bad advice and that every warrior build in the meta used the skill. > > Here we are a year later and even in that same meta there a number of builds that have dropped it. > > When I suggest there alternatives to something like healing Signet or Endure pain , it hardly means those are bad skills and should not be taken. It is no slight on the people that decide they want to take those skills. All it means is there are alternatives that do in fact work. What number of builds are you referring to? If you're talking about Tetherbreaker that is a more squishy build but with a bit better mobility that works probably the best in sPvP. I never said you were claiming the skills were bad, I have been repeatedly trying to convey to you that you're not understanding the strengths of the Warrior and this is based off of having seen your assessment as to why Healing Signet is worse than To The Limit or Mending against burst or ranged kiting classes because those assessments are emphatically inaccurate. Do Mending and To The Limit work in place of Healing Signet in some scenarios? Yes they do and I never disputed that, however what I did dispute was your reasoning behind why one should take those over Healing Signet, which your assessment of that reason was when you're facing off against heavy burst or ranged kiting classes. I had tried to explain to you that belief was inaccurate due to several other variables available within a Warrior's kit. From what I have gathered you have builds to approach different situations and honestly that is fine, not a terrible concept to apply to ones gameplay. However the *way* in which you approach it is what I don't agree with. Your approach to heavy condition pressure is to swap and use a build that has many more condition cleanses available to it and yeah that is sound logic and I don't dispute it, in fact I'm sure it can help. The thing with that approach is that you end up tailoring a build into being a one trick pony, if my guess as to what the build is turns out to be correct, and as such the *moment* you run into anything other than Condi builds *or* simply run into a better player then that build is going to fall apart because you're trying to compensate for a lack of mechanical skill in the game and it won't hold up. Granted these are all guesses, I don't know for sure and its just my observation and honestly what would maybe help me understand better is if you actually set up the build on gw2skills.net, posted it here or to a DM to me and I could look at it. Not to judge it or anything, but to just get an idea as to what the hell I am even dealing with here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry.5713 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 Just like with everything else, the warrior healing skills are very situational - that is outside of Healing Signet. * Defiance stance ranges from you being immortal for a couple of seconds to doing absolutely nothing against someone who knows their shit. This combined with the fact about how reliant warriors are on their healing skill, unlike other classes with huge heals on weapon skills or utilities, which makes a missed heal hurt even more. * Mending is a soft option as it is an active (and in my opinion) worse version of Healing Signet. That change to turn into into a Physical Skill has certainly been an interesting one that made me consider using that skill in a couple of situations. We might see it used more often eventually. But there will always be the fact that is quite weak as soon as you take conditions out of the equation. * "To the Limit" continues to suffer greatly against poison which is close to everywhere and the go-to condition for those dragging you into long fights. The only reason to use it is for prestacking adrenalin in PvE and as a part of some gimmicky Shoutheal builds. * Blood Reckoning is a PvE heal (pretty much like the entire Berserker spec nowadays) * Natural Healing - the most enderestimated one if you ask me. There are cases where this one feels like the best thing ever but of course, and once again, those are quite specific while it quite often ends up being a double edged sword that hurts more than it helps and at best ends up being "meh". Like a Mending on steroids, I guess. Now think about everything people said about Healing Signet with it's passive healing and on demand resistance. It fits into every build and most situations, it rarely ends up being a complete waste either. Warriors are short on other means of healing outside of passive trickles. This means they don't get away with a weak healing skill which might end up being quite lacklaster depending on the situation. They instead need good and reliable healing numbers in that slot. Healing signet adds up well with all of the other passive healing on top of that. This makes HS the most versatile, reliable and understandbly the far most used warrior healing skill. Nobody says other skills might not work in certain situations or might even outperform HS but that is about all there is to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daw.4923 Posted December 10, 2018 Share Posted December 10, 2018 HS is worst heal in PvE,its best in PvP if you actualy know how to kite. In pve TO THE LIMIT>All,dont even try Defiance stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittyRiv.5291 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 People still run healing signet? Pretty much all I play is warrior in WvW and I dropped it 2 years ago. I don't even run it when I use a build that has signet mastery. You would think healing signet would be OK vs condi, damage over time vs heal over time, with an active that grants resistance. So often the resistance gets removed and all you got was a pitiful 2k heal. For me, mending is a much better option vs condi or power. The overall healing can be nearly 50% better compared to healing signet if traited for reduced recharge not taking into account the damage that is mitigated from removing conditions. Even if its not traited the overall healing is better. The only downside is you actually have to cast it. Warrior are often pressure players, so that cast time is actually worse than it sounds when you can just run around with a passive heal instead, but I think the pros outweigh the cons. Defiant stance I also find better than healing signet. Oddly enough it is weakest in a 1v1 vs phsyical damange. It will heal condi damange so I find it is actually quite well vs conditions. When there are more than a couple people I find it quite easy to position myself to go from low to full. The only real downside for me is 1v1 vs physical damage. I try to bait by using it as very low health but a very good player is only going to hit me maybe twice which might make it a fairly weak heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korochun.5862 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 In sPvP, defiant Stance is easily one of the best healing skills in the game. It's great Condi counter (pop it with Max conditions and watch as 20 stacks of confusion heal you), excellent bait in group fights, can secure you a kill while providing full healing, and is very easy to land against any big burst. It hard counters power reaper and easily shuts down most Condi burst, and it's fantastic for baiting. It is virtually impossible not to be healed to full in a team fight just by popping it while Condi bombed or focused or even by popping it before playing aggressively. I am really surprised by all these warriors ranking it so low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimo.3281 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Healing Signet (aka Holy Spirit) Always Heals You Even You're Focusing On Doing Something. And when you invoke it, no conditions or CCs can f@ck you up. And when its up to "watch mode" again, it heals you forever and ever. AMEN? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korochun.5862 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Uh, resistance is a boon. It is easily stripped or corrupted by every Condi class. When you activate it and expect it to do something, you die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gimo.3281 Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 > @"Korochun.5862" said: > Uh, resistance is a boon. It is easily stripped or corrupted by every Condi class. When you activate it and expect it to do something, you die. yea but fucking on top of might, which is removed first? unless its TOTAL boon corrupt. but yea, you still have your shield and sword. sword 2 to run and shield 5 to effin block and get healed by might. and a effin shield and a sword lookslike a bird with tail when combined. See, even Heal Signet "shapeshifted." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korochun.5862 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 >yea but kitten on top of might, which is removed first? unless its TOTAL boon corrupt. Both, because Sigil of Nullification exists? As does Arcane Trickery? As does Scourge? And the entirety of the Thief Trickery line, where congrats, you've just given the *thief* might and resistance? It's not one or the other my dude. About the only place where you can reliably get a good run from active Healing Signet is vs a condi Guardian unless you are fighting flat out incompetents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTGuevara.9018 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 You'd know...you'd be surprised! I use Defiant Stance of all things! The funny thing is...there was some recent chatter on the forums about how "OP" it is. Most warriors never even consider this skill being we're mostly on the Healing Signet train. Now all of a sudden it's "OP"? Don't make me laugh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashTheGrey.1492 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Healing Signet ties into the passive EP, Regular EP, Adrenal health, large healthpool, Might Makes Right, Insane healing over time that warrior puts out and needs to put out to be effective. Warrior has huge telegraphs, and telegraphing something like a heal is asking for one more huge issue against players that are good. Healing Signet is the best option, hands down, for any player than doesn't sit there, brain dead, eating burst. There is simply too much synergy with warriors strongest traits to effectively make an argument for a different heal being "better". A good opponent will punish a readable heal often, and warrior is the one class that gets to say "that's my secret captain, i'm always healing" and just keep slapping away. You aren't a unique snowflake for using something else, you're just not going against opponents that are challenging, and your build is sub optimal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now