What is best support class now (for zerging)?

[SloRules.3560]

> @"EMTDJ.9042" said:

> I have completed an analysis on healing engi vs minstrel's FB, the results may shock you.

> Healing Engi

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnsTBFYhdpCmXBsehlJjac9qg4TM8OgAgeur79G-jlRDQBhUJYU2fAAXAAJq8TePAQHgAV/hUA+NzC-w

> Minstrel's FB

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApeWnsADNCjtCB+CB8DhlHCbveuPDoYBgKQWK79MfyAA-j1RDQBL8IAAgTAgEV+JvHBoPIkKBFo6PRZ/BSB43ML-w

>

> For this analysis I used the same armor, trinkets, runes, sigils, and weapon stats.

>

> Going off of the healing and effectiveness for the group, due to the cool downs of Firebrand book 2, and renewed focus cool downs, Engi appears to be the better sustained healer overtime. Engi can stay in med kit for an entire raid without having to tap out of it vs heal book which only has 8 cast at the most then goes on a minimum of a 42 second cooldown and renewed focus has a minimum 90 second cool down, the skills for engi healer have relatively low cool downs, greater condi cleanse and lower cool downs for group oriented condi cleanse for the utility skills as well. The healing over time and immediate for Engi is greater than the over time and immediate healing for FB.

>

> Here are my notes on both when you get a chance, no rush:

> This analysis is just going by the healing factors and condi removal of each build.

> Before I go into the break down I would like to note that regeneration does not stack, instead only the strongest regeneration will take effect, therefore pulsing multiple iterations of regen in a short amount of time will only result in 1 version of it taking place. therefore pumping regen all the time in effect is useless until the strongest regeneration has worn off or is corrupted.

>

> Firebrand:

> Book 2 minimum - 42 Second cool down, 8 cast of any variety of the following 5 skills before going on full cool down:

> All skills in Book 2 will cause regen for 5 seconds causing a total of 1750 health regenerated if the regen is not corrupted or replaced

> Skill 1 - 1800 immediate healing

> Skill 2 - cures 3 conditions, healing 1237 per condition for a total of 3711 if 3 are healed

> Skill 3 - regen for 10 seconds resulting in 3182 healed if it isn't corrupted or replaced

> Skill 4 - 728 healing over 5 pulses resulting in 3,640 at the end if the skill is not interrupted

> Skill 5 - 20% healing effectiveness for 8 seconds, 5 conditions converted to boons

>

> Mantra of Solace 30 Second cool down if used all the way- grants aegis for for 3 seconds with each use with an ammo of 3 before the final use with a charge recovery time of 12 seconds

> Mantra of Lore 25 second cool down if used all the way - regen for 8 1/2 seconds for a total of 2916 if the regen isn't replaced or corrupted and 2 conditions removed with an ammo of 3 before final use with a charge recovery time of 12 second

>

> Engi:

> Med Kit- no cool down, no cast limit before a cool down:

> Skill 1 - 508 healing x 3 pulses for a total of 2540 healing + 38 healing per boon on target during each pulse

> Skill 2 - 5 bandages with 1933 healing each for a total of 9665 healing to the group, 5 second regen for 1777 healing total if not corrupted or replaced

> Skill 3 - 4 conditions removed in 4 seconds - 1 per pulse- no target cap, radius of 300

> Skill 4 - 3454 healing for 5 targets with a radius of 300

> Skill 5 - Regen 17 seconds for a total of 5923 healing if not corrupted or replaced

>

> Toss Elixer C 13 second cooldown: 2 condition conversion

> Toss Elixer U 26 second cool down: breaks stun for 5 people

> Med Pack Drop 52 second cool down: 1762 healing, 14 conditions removed , 6 impacts , 240 radius, 900 range, 5 targets

>

> Purge Gyro 20 second cool down: 2 conditions removed for near by allies every 3 second for a 15 second time frame for a total of 10 conditions removed

> Supply Crate 120 Second recharge, drops a healing turret

 

And where's your point? Still FB>Scrapper

 

We knew forever that Scrapper is better healer, FB is just better support(As in healing, boons, ....)

[EMTDJ.9042]

Well since book 3 has the longest cool down now, is really the best for stab and support?

[steki.1478]

> @"EMTDJ.9042" said:

> Well since book 3 has the longest cool down now, is really the best for stab and support?

 

Other classes don't even share stab, that's the main reason fb is the best. Cooldowns have nothing to do with that.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"EMTDJ.9042" said:

> > Well since book 3 has the longest cool down now, is really the best for stab and support?

>

> Other classes don't even share stab, that's the main reason fb is the best. Cooldowns have nothing to do with that.

Eh what? Of course other classes got AoE stab. In the case of the scrapper thats one of the reasons people dont run the kitten purge gyro, they run the bulwark gyro for one of the strongest zerg reflects in the game, as it also provides 3 stacks of stab over 10 or so seconds for 5 peeps. On top of that, warriors, revs, rangers, mesmers and eles can give stab I believe. Are they on commonly used skills? Nope. Is it as good as guard. Hardly, but its still there.

 

[Prophet.1584]

cutting through all the people defending their own professions overall it seems as though the wvw meta professions have had no changes other than warrior being less useful for pirate ships.

* Support Chrono got worse but can't be replaced,

* Support Firebrand got worse but can't be replaced,

* Power Revenant will be the ranged damage dealer still

* Power/Condi Scourge still have the most readily available boon corrupts and aoe damage

 

That doesn't mean other professions can't be used or won't be but the core of the zerg, maybe minus warriors?, stays the same. Am i right??

[SloRules.3560]

> @"Prophet.1584" said:

> cutting through all the people defending their own professions overall it seems as though the wvw meta professions have had no changes other than warrior being less useful for pirate ships.

> * Support Chrono got worse but can't be replaced,

> * Support Firebrand got worse but can't be replaced,

> * Power Revenant will be the ranged damage dealer still

> * Power/Condi Scourge still have the most readily available boon corrupts and aoe damage

>

> That doesn't mean other professions can't be used or won't be but the core of the zerg, maybe minus warriors?, stays the same. Am i right??

 

How cant chrono be replaced? So you ever chrono, you didnt bring chrono just for veil.

[steki.1478]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > @"EMTDJ.9042" said:

> > > Well since book 3 has the longest cool down now, is really the best for stab and support?

> >

> > Other classes don't even share stab, that's the main reason fb is the best. Cooldowns have nothing to do with that.

> Eh what? Of course other classes got AoE stab. In the case of the scrapper thats one of the reasons people dont run the kitten purge gyro, they run the bulwark gyro for one of the strongest zerg reflects in the game, as it also provides 3 stacks of stab over 10 or so seconds for 5 peeps. On top of that, warriors, revs, rangers, mesmers and eles can give stab I believe. Are they on commonly used skills? Nope. Is it as good as guard. Hardly, but its still there.

>

 

Not enough stab to be a main group support. Chrono can stab with mantra, but lacks almost everything else than fb can do. Rev has stab on dwarf, but it's not very reliable when you move a lot and it doesn't share much. Ranger has like 3 useful support skills and bad cleanses. Ele shares 1 stack when swapping to earth... No idea about warr tbh.

 

It's not just about having random stab in your kit. You need to have it a lot and do something impactful with the rest of the build. No class can do it besides mesmer maybe, which doesn't offer as much healing, so it still cant be standalone support.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"steki.1478" said:

> > @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > > @"steki.1478" said:

> > > > @"EMTDJ.9042" said:

> > > > Well since book 3 has the longest cool down now, is really the best for stab and support?

> > >

> > > Other classes don't even share stab, that's the main reason fb is the best. Cooldowns have nothing to do with that.

> > Eh what? Of course other classes got AoE stab. In the case of the scrapper thats one of the reasons people dont run the kitten purge gyro, they run the bulwark gyro for one of the strongest zerg reflects in the game, as it also provides 3 stacks of stab over 10 or so seconds for 5 peeps. On top of that, warriors, revs, rangers, mesmers and eles can give stab I believe. Are they on commonly used skills? Nope. Is it as good as guard. Hardly, but its still there.

> >

>

> Not enough stab to be a main group support. Chrono can stab with mantra, but lacks almost everything else than fb can do. Rev has stab on dwarf, but it's not very reliable when you move a lot and it doesn't share much. Ranger has like 3 useful support skills and bad cleanses. Ele shares 1 stack when swapping to earth... No idea about warr tbh.

>

> It's not just about having random stab in your kit. You need to have it a lot and do something impactful with the rest of the build. No class can do it besides mesmer maybe, which doesn't offer as much healing, so it still cant be standalone support.

You said and I quote "other classes dont even share stab". The claim is blatantly false. I didnt dispute that fb is best at it nor argued against it being the main support.

[Dediggefedde.4961]

> @"EMTDJ.9042" said:

> Healing Engi

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFASnsTBFYhdpCmXBsehlJjac9qg4TM8OgAgeur79G-jlRDQBhUJYU2fAAXAAJq8TePAQHgAV/hUA+NzC-w

 

The build seems pretty off in my opinion.

purge-gyro is not intuitive. It only cleanses one condition of one ally every pulse, starting with 3 conditions on the first pulse that are distributed (not multiplied) among allies... So it's actually the worst condition cleanse.

Elixir-C is nice, but not suited for WvW, because of its long CD.

The best option is still Elixir-Gun with fumigate, cleansing up to 25 conditions every 12s.

 

Without MDF you also have a huge heal-loss. I highly doubt the superspeed of kinetic battery is helping that. Better use inventions (there is also a +250 heal) and applied force instead of adaptive armor. Or kinetic stabilizers and instead of Elixir-U some CC with Superspeed (like blast-gyro or slick-shoes).

 

Also, not taking purity of purpose when you have so many group cleanses, is a hugh boon-loss for the zerg. Especially now with the mesmer-nerf the heal-scrappers and conversion-holos are required to take this trait.

 

With the "standard" healing build with MDF you get between 6k and 12k hps in a fight with 2-4 condition cleanses per second on average. I highly doubt that in the case of your build. And without MDF the burst-group-heal of Medikit-4 and F1 is also much less...

 

If you want to focus on cleanses, take holosmith with hardlight-arena, shield, medkit and EG and the respective traits of alchemy and inventions . With antitoxin-runes you get to 9 cleanses per second.

 

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> But they also nerfed Medi scrappers healing.

> The healing output wad only good because of perma quickness.

> Without Quickness the medi kit healing is a joke.

 

It's still good enough to use. Especially since now Elixir-U is patched again. only something like 25% quickness uptime loss now.

However, there was always the option to increase superspeed-uptime for rapid-Regen-MDF. With kinetic stabilizers you can now get to something like 50% personal superspeed uptime without stopping. This grants a passive heal increase while you can do your burst heals actively at critical points instead of constantly spamming medkit-1. You still do that when idle, though. ^^

So I think the patch did not lower the healing of healscrappers by much.

The main problem is the group-superspeed loss.

Other classes can't provide this much superspeed on a regular basis...

 

 

> @"CRrabbit.1284" said:

> FB get huge nerf bat but still essential , Chrono=RIP, Scrapper seems not significant nerfed.

> Luckily I saved all grandmaster shards and have't exchange yet. Almost geared up a chrono or a FB.

> So maybe a good time to gear my engi ?

 

Even if everything aside from stability is nerfed in guards, they will still be in high demand for every group in your zerg.

There is no real alternative as a source of stability in normal compositions. Rev-street is not really a good replacement.

Also resistance, pull and reflection are pretty strong.

Heal-Scrapper has still better healing (which is always ready and can be constantly used) and better condi cleanse (2-4 cleanses/s on average, also always ready and with low CDs). Also, since the mesmer is nerfed, heal-scrappers and conversion-Holos are arguably the best boon source now. With overcleansing and -healing you will not notice more than one heal-scrapper per 3 groups, though.

So you will still need a firebrand per group, but only 1-3 scrappers per zerg.

By the way: Mesmers are also still needed and in demand. They provide heavy CC and veils and portals. necro-portals are too short and smoke-fields too skill dependand to be used by anything but experiences guild setups.

Heal-Rev got only buffed in healing, as far as I heard. That means it's still as it was before the patch. Healrevs have a problem with tablet-management, stunbreaks and condition pressure. If you don't need condition removal and the healrev is experienced and has good guards, you can take that instead of a healscrapper. The heal is more bursty and less constant, though.

 

So in my opinion, the patch did hurt group-superspeed, which is noticable in zerg fights, but did not have any impact on how viable a support class is now.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

I finally decided to play Firebrand again.

 

100% quickness duration is funny.

 

 

16s group quickness on 24s cd.

And that just the elite.

[hunkamania.7561]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> I finally decided to play Firebrand again.

>

> 100% quickness duration is funny.

>

>

> 16s group quickness on 24s cd.

> And that just the elite.

 

So you're taking that over the stab mantra elite? Yikes.

[Gemnaid.4219]

Engine turrets are support meta.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Gemnaid.4219" said:

> Engine turrets are support meta.

Revving is too OP.

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

> @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > I finally decided to play Firebrand again.

> >

> > 100% quickness duration is funny.

> >

> >

> > 16s group quickness on 24s cd.

> > And that just the elite.

>

> So you're taking that over the stab mantra elite? Yikes.

 

Do we realy need the stab mantra with 10 Target stab shout?

 

But to be honest, i get perma quickness even without the shout so maybe i should change.

 

Also its 28s cd not 24.

My bad.

 

 

 

[SloRules.3560]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > I finally decided to play Firebrand again.

> > >

> > > 100% quickness duration is funny.

> > >

> > >

> > > 16s group quickness on 24s cd.

> > > And that just the elite.

> >

> > So you're taking that over the stab mantra elite? Yikes.

>

> Do we realy need the stab mantra with 10 Target stab shout?

>

> But to be honest, i get perma quickness even without the shout so maybe i should change.

>

> Also its 28s cd not 24.

> My bad.

>

>

>

Yeah, that mantra is more valuable than stand your ground.

 

[hunkamania.7561]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > > I finally decided to play Firebrand again.

> > >

> > > 100% quickness duration is funny.

> > >

> > >

> > > 16s group quickness on 24s cd.

> > > And that just the elite.

> >

> > So you're taking that over the stab mantra elite? Yikes.

>

> Do we realy need the stab mantra with 10 Target stab shout?

>

> But to be honest, i get perma quickness even without the shout so maybe i should change.

>

> Also its 28s cd not 24.

> My bad.

>

>

>

 

Stab is the most important boon out there so the more application the better IMO. It also breaks stuns for teammates. Hard to replace mantra as elite atm

 

Also, firebrand is now head and shoulders the best support class. We were winning fights before the patch with mesmer and scrapper groups with no FB(didn't have any pugging a bunch of times feelsbadman) mesmers could poop out boons so ez with mimic share lol.