Fundamentally altering professions every few months

[Jimbru.6014]

Meta is only meta because of obsessed people who want to do everything as fast as possible. News flash: if feel that your time is so kitten valuable that you need to exclude a player or a class because it has 1% less than "optimum" DPS, then frankly, you should be doing something more important with your oh so precious time than playing video games.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> Meta is only meta because of obsessed people who want to do everything as fast as possible. News flash: if feel that your time is so kitten valuable that you need to exclude a player or a class because it has 1% less than "optimum" DPS, then frankly, you should be doing something more important with your oh so precious time than playing video games.

 

No lol meta is effects that you need to get though content. If its dmg type or healing every different content needs a different meta to win. Ppl just try to tie negatively to the word meta. You NEED boons in wvw and pvp you NEED boon control as well You NEED dps dmg and healing in pve these effects are meta for there game type. If your class is missing these effects at a "ok" level or a "benchmark" level your class is not meta.

 

Anet NEEDS to make sure all classes can hit these "benchmarks" of meta effects for all game types you will still have better classes but ALL classes need to be able to compete.

 

Here a good way to think of things about meta:

We all need food there are food that are better for you and foods that taste better etc.. the meta effect is if the food keeps you alive and moving. Sitting there and staying sand is ok even though its not meta dose not mean its good for you to eat. We do not end sand because it dose not give us what we need to live and move so sand is not meta food.

[Eddy Law.2874]

That's not a very good analogy, and you CAN still do top level content without being "meta".

 

Using your food example, it would be more like saying, "kale and quinoa and lean chicken breast are the meta meal to eat. But eating broccoli, rice, and chicken thighs with honey garlic sauce isn't meta, but it's still a pretty good option for your health, so it's ok as a substitute if you don't like the meta meal."

[Diak Atoli.2085]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > Meta is only meta because of obsessed people who want to do everything as fast as possible. News flash: if feel that your time is so kitten valuable that you need to exclude a player or a class because it has 1% less than "optimum" DPS, then frankly, you should be doing something more important with your oh so precious time than playing video games.

>

> No lol meta is effects that you need to get though content. If its dmg type or healing every different content needs a different meta to win. Ppl just try to tie negatively to the word meta. You NEED boons in wvw and pvp you NEED boon control as well You NEED dps dmg and healing in pve these effects are meta for there game type. If your class is missing these effects at a "ok" level or a "benchmark" level your class is not meta.

>

> Anet NEEDS to make sure all classes can hit these "benchmarks" of meta effects for all game types you will still have better classes but ALL classes need to be able to compete.

>

> Here a good way to think of things about meta:

> We all need food there are food that are better for you and foods that taste better etc.. the meta effect is if the food keeps you alive and moving. Sitting there and staying sand is ok even though its not meta dose not mean its good for you to eat. We do not end sand because it dose not give us what we need to live and move so sand is not meta food.

 

This is incorrect.

 

META stands for Most Effective Tactic Available, not Only Effective Tactic Available. You can easily complete any content in the game without META compositions, with some even being nearly as effective as META.

 

As an analogy, compare a high-level MPG sedan, a 4WD SUV, and a Formula One racecar. All are effective at getting from Point A to Point B. However, each would be considered META in different categories. The sedan would be better than the SUV for cross-country trips, while the SUV would be better for offroading. Both, however, would be handily beaten in straightline speed by the race car.

 

Edit: Better analogy.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > Meta is only meta because of obsessed people who want to do everything as fast as possible. News flash: if feel that your time is so kitten valuable that you need to exclude a player or a class because it has 1% less than "optimum" DPS, then frankly, you should be doing something more important with your oh so precious time than playing video games.

>

> No lol meta is effects that you need to get though content.

 

Um, no it isn't, at all. Meta is the optimized version of whatever you are doing. Meta build, meta comp for a specific raid or fractal. There are even meta builds for WvW or PVP. Meta has nothing to do with the minimum of 'things' you need to be successful in content. What you are describing doesn't actually have a name, but if I were to give it one, it would be the anti-meta.

[Opopanax.1803]

They need more changes to classes to revive dead skills and builds, not less. We need to be flexible for the health of the game, OP.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > > Meta is only meta because of obsessed people who want to do everything as fast as possible. News flash: if feel that your time is so kitten valuable that you need to exclude a player or a class because it has 1% less than "optimum" DPS, then frankly, you should be doing something more important with your oh so precious time than playing video games.

> >

> > No lol meta is effects that you need to get though content.

>

> Um, no it isn't, at all. Meta is the optimized version of whatever you are doing. Meta build, meta comp for a specific raid or fractal. There are even meta builds for WvW or PVP. Meta has nothing to do with the minimum of 'things' you need to be successful in content. What you are describing doesn't actually have a name, but if I were to give it one, it would be the anti-meta.

 

Right meta like skill though are stop thinking things in views of classes but effects or your always going to fall into the trap of making it too personal. Meta classes / builds are due to there effects mostly boons and the counter to thoughts boons. Its a very on and off system in gw2 you have the right boons or you dont you have the counter to boons or you dont there is no in-between class. What i am asking for is for more in-between classes or the haves to need to build for such effects and the have nots the ability to build to get such effects.

 

If your a support and you dont have a strong boon effects your not going to be on anly real use for the group if your dmg and you dont have the counter to the boons your not much use to your group. Its not about the classes its about the effects from the classes.

 

In an odd way its more meta defending to ask for no changes to help the lesser used classes. Your defending the meta by not asking for updates for the have nots classes in gw2. It is the truth you must faces your self with.

[Obtena.7952]

That still doesn't change the fact that there are no right builds/comps to complete content. Meta is just the optimized choice; there are lots of other choices that can bring you success as well. If you don't think you can play non-meta builds if you are teaming with other people, that's a choice you have made, not something the game imposes on you.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> That still doesn't change the fact that there are no right builds/comps to complete content.

Sure, but there are definitely _wrong_ builds for the content. There are also always better and worse choices. Balance that concentrates on bringing down better choices, but doesn't buff worse ones can only result in diminishing of good options (and eventually in a situation where all options are bad).

 

[Jski.6180]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> That still doesn't change the fact that there are no right builds/comps to complete content. Meta is just the optimized choice; there are lots of other choices that can bring you success as well. If you don't think you can play non-meta builds if you are teaming with other people, that's a choice you have made, not something the game imposes on you.

 

That the thing there are builds that just do not work for classes with some contents. Its less about meta classes and more about meta effects. If you cant bring that meta effect your classes is not going to be used.

 

And all being said why are you so hard on buffing non meta classes to have these effect? Its one thing not to like playing the meta is another to effectively keep the meta the end all be all in this game by trying to be so anty meta that you blind your self from the truth of the players.

 

You do understand there is an type of elitism by rejecting meta all the time. In an odd way its a type of meta mind set in its self.

 

[Obtena.7952]

Not having builds that don't work is not the same thing as saying there is a right build for something. There are a wide spectrum of builds and at the top is the meta. And no, you don't need to bring that meta effect so your class gets used unless you choose to team with people that insist you play meta builds.

 

No one here is rejecting meta; it's the idea there are 'correct' builds to play and you must do so to get teams is what is being rejected. That's just not true.

[Jski.6180]

You kind of are rejecting the meta by not trying to bring classes up to near meta level. Well that is if you dont play a meta class if you do but cant see the problme with the non meta classes your simply suppressing other classes balancing to keep your class meta.

[Obtena.7952]

That makes no sense; you can't 'reject' meta because there is always some optimized approach to doing content. Anet can't plan what that meta looks like either, so balancing a class to it also makes no sense.

 

It's all rather moot point anyways; it's way off topic. Your original point that you don't get to play if you aren't the right class/build/comps is wrong, no matter how far you want to go down the road of arguing what meta is or how it's related to balance.

[mortrialus.3062]

Serious reworks are fine. It's certainly better than the Pre-Hot Era were nothing every really impacted the shift of power away from 4 Warriors 1 Ele because nothing fundamental about the class was ever touched.

[Jski.6180]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> Serious reworks are fine. It's certainly better than the Pre-Hot Era were nothing every really impacted the shift of power away from 4 Warriors 1 Ele because nothing fundamental about the class was ever touched.

 

They are realy not becuse its been more then just this update that hit classes this is an near endless nerf every update to the point where balance patches are more harmful to the player base then non content updates.

 

@"Obtena.7952" You reject the meta by not playing the "best" in class builds are very secondarily because builds are not as important as the class in gw2. Your not going to lose stab support from not running support gurd but you are going to lose stab support by not running gurd. The meta has been the same for years now if anet dose not know it by now they need to leave the job. The same skill and same effects have been used over and over for the same reason the non used skill and effects have not been used for the lack of meta effects.

 

At this point it needs to be said that the mind set that being showed a lot here is not good for the over all game balancing and only helps keeps the meta classes meta.

[Obtena.7952]

No, that's not true; me saying people can play how they want is not rejecting meta, at all, ever. What you are accusing me of makes no sense and coming from you, it's very incredible considering you didn't understand what meta was 4 posts ago.

[Jski.6180]

Then your living in a bubble and dooming ppl who dont have already made groups. A "I got my group where yours?" its just not going to work.

[Conqueror.3682]

Balance its like perfection, its impossible to achieve, but you seek to reach it. Really, there is no game where perfect balance exists, its like politics, you cant have 100% of votes... well except if youre a tyrant, i havent seen a rpg in my life with perfect balance.

 

3 months doesnt look like a short span of time to make some radical changes in classes. I mean, there are games which you have to wait like 3 years to see some major changes. And even if people dont like some changes, arena net will look for the happiness from the most of the people.

 

 

[Leo G.4501]

Curious, to those stating the meta is only specific group playstyles and goals (min-max elites and quick runtimes), do people make/post videos of the non-meta compositions and how they fare in various content? I'm sure people make them, I've just not been paying much attention to GW2 for a while and Youtube doesn't recommend GW2 to me anymore lol

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> Then your living in a bubble and dooming ppl who dont have already made groups. A "I got my group where yours?" its just not going to work.

 

Again, that doesn't make sense. I don't live in a bubble and there isn't any doom ... there are 'unmade' groups that take non-meta players, maybe not as many as premades. It works fine because it's a players choice how they play the game; the options are there and accessible to everyone. I still don't see how this relates to the topic though ... you're making this a meta buff soapbox.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Jski.6180" said:

> > Then your living in a bubble and dooming ppl who dont have already made groups. A "I got my group where yours?" its just not going to work.

>

> Again, that doesn't make sense. I don't live in a bubble and there isn't any doom ... there are 'unmade' groups that take non-meta players, maybe not as many as premades. It works fine because it's a players choice how they play the game; the options are there and accessible to everyone. I still don't see how this relates to the topic though ... you're making this a meta buff soapbox.

 

You never realty gone up to the wall of dps meters and skill rotation timing groups have you? There a lot of them out there this is not such a nice community as ppl like to think.

There needs to be a real push to make sure all classes are viable at all times due to how they are build not due to the class it self. Right now you have meta classes with meta effects but it should be meta effects on any class if you build for it. Its realty that easy to fix a lot of the balancing problems in this game. The ideal of a class getting all the stab support just because it is that class is silly and unbalance able.

 

The updates should not changes the class but the players chose of builds should! It needs to be far more then how much power you have and how tankly you are or how strong of heals it needs to be boons types. You should never be focused to play a meta class but you should have to have some level of meta effects. Or you should let every player swap there class on the fly. It is the only true way to fix this game. Getting in the way is only a means to making the meta classes the only way to play as that just how gamer are going to act.

[Obtena.7952]

I didn't need to .. I learned to play to avoid them and so can anyone else. I don't see what the bad behavior of PUG meta teams has to to with Anet changing the game though ...

 

You say updates shouldn't change the class? OK, that has nothing to do with being forced to play a meta class (which you aren't). I still don't agree or see that this balance patch did that to any class in the game. I mean, it's pretty ridiculous you sit there and say updates shouldn't change the class ... how do you think Anet is going to buff whatever classes you want to be meta? That makes no sense. You want Anet to target a moving target for balance ... but you don't think Anet should change the class to do that when they do balance patches? Sounds to me you don't understand how this all works.

[Jski.6180]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> I didn't need to .. I learned to play to avoid them and so can anyone else. I don't see what the bad behavior of PUG meta teams has to to with Anet changing the game though ...

>

> You say updates shouldn't change the class? OK, that has nothing to do with being forced to play a meta class (which you aren't). I still don't agree or see that this balance patch did that to any class in the game.

 

What class do you play?

 

Any way it should not change a class other then letting it build in the way it wants to. I cant make tempest ele ever give support stab and i cant make weaver ele ever boon strip THAT is a problem. On the same note gurd will never be with out support stab even if its elite is a dmg aimed one.

 

Players should be able to chose how there class changes base off there builds the only thing anet should be doing it better let the players do that any thing out side of that is NOT balancing in gw2.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> Funny, some have posted they don't care for the smaller tweaks and adjustments, and state the game must have the bigger changes.

> It truly doesn't matter what ArenaNet does; _someone_ will be disappointed.

 

When people want big changes.. I don't think they mean repeated nerfs to classes accompanied with rendering some builds either unplayable or unusable in content.

 

If "x" class has say 5 usable builds throughout all the content, it doesn't make sense to reduce "x" class down to 2-3 usable builds; it makes more sense to add more usable builds boosting them up to 7-8. But this isn't the stance they take, they nerf classes thus pigeonholing the class into a particular build which in their vision how the class should be played. We can't call these "big" changes.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Jski.6180" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I didn't need to .. I learned to play to avoid them and so can anyone else. I don't see what the bad behavior of PUG meta teams has to to with Anet changing the game though ...

> >

> > You say updates shouldn't change the class? OK, that has nothing to do with being forced to play a meta class (which you aren't). I still don't agree or see that this balance patch did that to any class in the game.

>

> What class do you play?

 

The magic one ...

>

> Any way it should not change a class other then letting it build in the way it wants to. I cant make tempest ele ever give support stab and i cant make weaver ele ever boon strip THAT is a problem.

 

No, it's not a problem that you can't just do whatever you please with whatever class you want; classes are built on themes and theme determines what a class can do. Classes exist in more than just name only. This appears to be a significant barrier to you understanding what's happening in the game as it evolves and why those things happen. If you don't understand this very fundamental concept of what a class is, them I am certain you will continue to be frustrated by any MMO you play where they exist.

 

 

> Players should be able to chose how there class changes base off there builds the only thing anet should be doing it better let the players do that any thing out side of that is NOT balancing in gw2.

 

That makes no sense. Players do not decide how the class changes. That's Anet's job; classes are confined by the skills Anet decides they have base on their theme. That will always be the case.