reikken.4961 Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Yasi.9065" said: > And while "alot" of other classes have SOME might, its neither 25 stacks nor 10man, basically forcing you to run druid if you dont want to add yet another mandatory - or two - roles to the squad. > > Take ren/fb comp for example. You have to get REALLY creative to stack 25 might on fb. You can do it with scepter symbol... or empowering might trait. But the former excludes you from other VERY important weapon sets - like axe for pulls or mace for blocks or hammer for cc - really limiting your utility to unacceptable levels, and the later needs precision. Now, thanks to SoC changes, you ALSO need full harriers to reach 100% boon duration. Harrier has? Correct, no precision. For empowering might to give out enough might to get to 25, you have to have around 50% crit chance. Good luck with that. well chrono+druid is already the standard, so nothing changes except the loss of misc boons like vigor etc. it just goes back to how it was when chrono wasn't providing every boon in the game But anyway, as for firebrand comp, if you run radiance over virtues you crit on every hit, so you don't necessarily need any precision for Empowering Might to give out buckets of might. And then there are several alternatives, spreading might duty around the squad. Like deadeye can run fire for effect for a lot of might (also, one deadeye can cover might and fury for an entire squad if you're really hurting for might). Or weaver can grant 5-10 might to its subgroup with a few tweaks. Etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HyperLooser.2698 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 They completely destroyed scrapper for me. I liked gyros a lot. With many previous changes to trait and such balances you can see they do them due to pvp reasons yet pve gets hit harder by them. Functionality changes should be split between game modes too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasi.9065 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"reikken.4961" said: > > @"Yasi.9065" said: > > And while "alot" of other classes have SOME might, its neither 25 stacks nor 10man, basically forcing you to run druid if you dont want to add yet another mandatory - or two - roles to the squad. > > > > Take ren/fb comp for example. You have to get REALLY creative to stack 25 might on fb. You can do it with scepter symbol... or empowering might trait. But the former excludes you from other VERY important weapon sets - like axe for pulls or mace for blocks or hammer for cc - really limiting your utility to unacceptable levels, and the later needs precision. Now, thanks to SoC changes, you ALSO need full harriers to reach 100% boon duration. Harrier has? Correct, no precision. For empowering might to give out enough might to get to 25, you have to have around 50% crit chance. Good luck with that. > > well chrono+druid is already the standard, so nothing changes except the loss of misc boons like vigor etc. it just goes back to how it was when chrono wasn't providing every boon in the game > > But anyway, as for firebrand comp, if you run radiance over virtues you crit on every hit, so you don't necessarily need any precision for Empowering Might to give out buckets of might. > > And then there are several alternatives, spreading might duty around the squad. Like deadeye can run fire for effect for a lot of might (also, one deadeye can cover might and fury for an entire squad if you're really hurting for might). Or weaver can grant 5-10 might to its subgroup with a few tweaks. Etc Hence another mandatory slot you have to cover. Making LFG commanding even more of a nightmare. But thats not all. Might and fury are such important boons, having them spread over 4 (or even more) different contributing players in pugs? No way. Im not doing that to myself. Ofc you can compensate all the changes in a static. Theres different ways to go about it, all more or less similar efficient and frustrating. But coordinating those different solutions with players I neither can view the build of to make sure they are even using correct equipment, traits and skills beforehand, nor can I trust them to be remotely capable at executing different strategies, or even play around not having a chrono do it all.... pure hell. Before patch, if might was bad, Id just replace the druid. If other boons were bad, Id replace the chronos. In a fb/ren comp? With might and fury spread all over fb, ren, bs and a dps? Id have to look at logs after each attempt, checking which player is outputting less boons than should be expected for his/her build/profession. No thanks. That means, very likely less pug raiding. Less pug raiding means less raiding in general. Means declining interest in that gamemode, means less funds being funneled into it. More waittime for new raids, less relevancy for future balance changes and so on. You can hate on chrono all you want, but chrono was the reason raids were accessible to new/casual players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. Ppl want to play the game the way they want. Anet sold the game to a lot of ppl to be play as you want. Even in GW1 anet said there was a problem with every one needing to wait on a that healer to make a pt and they did not want that in GW2. GW2 is an objective failure at doing this and this update only making it worst. On being a stander boon support class is a complete wait of time as they are given out by every class even on the non support builds. Boons like prot, regen , might are so easy to get that your more likely to get them from runes then classes. To call a class a "support" base off these 3 boons is out right joke of an ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blocki.4931 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Yasi.9065" said: > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > @"Yasi.9065" said: > > > And while "alot" of other classes have SOME might, its neither 25 stacks nor 10man, basically forcing you to run druid if you dont want to add yet another mandatory - or two - roles to the squad. > > > > > > Take ren/fb comp for example. You have to get REALLY creative to stack 25 might on fb. You can do it with scepter symbol... or empowering might trait. But the former excludes you from other VERY important weapon sets - like axe for pulls or mace for blocks or hammer for cc - really limiting your utility to unacceptable levels, and the later needs precision. Now, thanks to SoC changes, you ALSO need full harriers to reach 100% boon duration. Harrier has? Correct, no precision. For empowering might to give out enough might to get to 25, you have to have around 50% crit chance. Good luck with that. > > > > well chrono+druid is already the standard, so nothing changes except the loss of misc boons like vigor etc. it just goes back to how it was when chrono wasn't providing every boon in the game > > > > But anyway, as for firebrand comp, if you run radiance over virtues you crit on every hit, so you don't necessarily need any precision for Empowering Might to give out buckets of might. > > > > And then there are several alternatives, spreading might duty around the squad. Like deadeye can run fire for effect for a lot of might (also, one deadeye can cover might and fury for an entire squad if you're really hurting for might). Or weaver can grant 5-10 might to its subgroup with a few tweaks. Etc > > Hence another mandatory slot you have to cover. Making LFG commanding even more of a nightmare. But thats not all. Might and fury are such important boons, having them spread over 4 (or even more) different contributing players in pugs? No way. Im not doing that to myself. > Nope. Not a mandatory slot, a supplementary slot. People working together to max those boons easily. Doesn't require a lot of work either, just people playing the way they normally would. Don't make it out to be some crazy hard thing to coordinate boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. **They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design.** > > I need to correct this: > Boons did not stop being meaningful parts of combat due to them being permanent. > > **Boons are permanent BECAUSE the price to incorporate them is justified via the power bonus they give to a party/squad. Thus group compositions will continue to strive to achieve permanent boons until:** > > **The price for achieving permanent boons outpaces the benefits.** > > This imaginary world where boons will work as part time buffs will NEVER happen in the games current combat design. Even now raid guilds are working on achieving permanent boons for squads. This is evident in how required boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity) are being worked in while less desired boons (the rest) are not. > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > If you see their statements, Anet's not going to change _that_. They will just push for more restrictive comps accomplishing the same thing. > > > > > > Yes, the way balance currently is headed, this might be the end result. > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > Sure, it's not hard to have every class. How does this address the issue of people wanting to play their desired class/role though? > > Justifying massive balance changes to certain classes with promise of other builds becoming available, then at the same time telling people to play something else because it is easy to level to 80 makes no sense. It was already possible to play support builds which were in demand. It was even possible to play support builds which were not in demand given a static or semi-static group (or experienced/relaxed PUG group). I don't see the benefit here. He's right on all of his points. And to your last point, are you somehow suggesting that having the choice of only Chrono is somehow better than having multiple classes that can bring certain boons? How can you suggest that the status quo was any better than what Anet is working towards? I get that you main a Chrono, but seriously, you should re-read your last paragraph. It literally makes no sense. 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Opopanax.1803 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > Ppl want to play the game the way they want. Anet sold the game to a lot of ppl to be play as you want. Even in GW1 anet said there was a problem with every one needing to wait on a that healer to make a pt and they did not want that in GW2. GW2 is an objective failure at doing this and this update only making it worst. > > On being a stander boon support class is a complete wait of time as they are given out by every class even on the non support builds. Boons like prot, regen , might are so easy to get that your more likely to get them from runes then classes. To call a class a "support" base off these 3 boons is out right joke of an ideal. It was a failure the day they decided to do raids, period. Now you are desiring that every class be equally capable at everything... that will kill the classes and make them homogonized... that will really kill the game. Pick your flavor. If you dont like a flavor, then find something else that you do like. But I myself want more than one flavor, not just chocolate for every profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > > > Ppl want to play the game the way they want. Anet sold the game to a lot of ppl to be play as you want. Even in GW1 anet said there was a problem with every one needing to wait on a that healer to make a pt and they did not want that in GW2. GW2 is an objective failure at doing this and this update only making it worst. > > > > On being a stander boon support class is a complete wait of time as they are given out by every class even on the non support builds. Boons like prot, regen , might are so easy to get that your more likely to get them from runes then classes. To call a class a "support" base off these 3 boons is out right joke of an ideal. > > It was a failure the day they decided to do raids, period. Now you are desiring that every class be equally capable at everything... that will kill the classes and make them homogonized... that will really kill the game. Pick your flavor. If you dont like a flavor, then find something else that you do like. But I myself want more than one flavor, not just chocolate for every profession. And that ok but some ppl do just want chocolate and there variation in there life and should not be focused to give up chocolate because other do not like it because it dose not live up to there point of view. That and you have to buy slots to get all 9 classes so unless anet lets you have 9 slots for free (or at least the full cost of the core game) it comes off as a cash grab. On a person note: I want to play ele at all points of the game all the time i do not mind going support or dmg or tankly burser but i want to be on part with every other class at all times. If i am not on par with all other classes at all times then there IS something wrong with balancing. I not played ele in real game play for months i went to scraper as it was the only way i could get into groups and now scraper use is gone as well. Anet has destroyed my world more then once so yes i am very very unhappy with them and nothing they said has even come close to showing me they want to do any real fix to help this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"reikken.4961" said: > certainly not a flawless patch, but wow, balance changes that actually make sense > and changing things that have been overpowered for ages and that people just took for granted as things that will always be broken > and even going back and replacing that awful bandaid fix with a proper fix > my mind is blown > Agree, they are making the correct steps. This is a really good start and brings a lot of hope to the table that they can fix this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > > > > > Ppl want to play the game the way they want. Anet sold the game to a lot of ppl to be play as you want. Even in GW1 anet said there was a problem with every one needing to wait on a that healer to make a pt and they did not want that in GW2. GW2 is an objective failure at doing this and this update only making it worst. > > > > > > On being a stander boon support class is a complete wait of time as they are given out by every class even on the non support builds. Boons like prot, regen , might are so easy to get that your more likely to get them from runes then classes. To call a class a "support" base off these 3 boons is out right joke of an ideal. > > > > It was a failure the day they decided to do raids, period. Now you are desiring that every class be equally capable at everything... that will kill the classes and make them homogonized... that will really kill the game. Pick your flavor. If you dont like a flavor, then find something else that you do like. But I myself want more than one flavor, not just chocolate for every profession. > > And that ok but some ppl do just want chocolate in there life and should not be focused to give up chocolate because other do not like it because it dose not live up to there point of view. > That and you have to buy slots to get all 9 classes so unless anet lets you have 9 slots for free (or at least the full cost of the core game) it comes off as a cash grab. Calling this game a cash grab is just crazy. If you cant find a profession that has your "chocolate" flavor in it in 5 slots, then you need to do more research. If you still cant find a class that you like, the game probably doesnt have any classes that you like and is not the game for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > > > > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > > > > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > > > > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > > > > > > > Ppl want to play the game the way they want. Anet sold the game to a lot of ppl to be play as you want. Even in GW1 anet said there was a problem with every one needing to wait on a that healer to make a pt and they did not want that in GW2. GW2 is an objective failure at doing this and this update only making it worst. > > > > > > > > On being a stander boon support class is a complete wait of time as they are given out by every class even on the non support builds. Boons like prot, regen , might are so easy to get that your more likely to get them from runes then classes. To call a class a "support" base off these 3 boons is out right joke of an ideal. > > > > > > It was a failure the day they decided to do raids, period. Now you are desiring that every class be equally capable at everything... that will kill the classes and make them homogonized... that will really kill the game. Pick your flavor. If you dont like a flavor, then find something else that you do like. But I myself want more than one flavor, not just chocolate for every profession. > > > > And that ok but some ppl do just want chocolate in there life and should not be focused to give up chocolate because other do not like it because it dose not live up to there point of view. > > That and you have to buy slots to get all 9 classes so unless anet lets you have 9 slots for free (or at least the full cost of the core game) it comes off as a cash grab. > > Calling this game a cash grab is just crazy. If you cant find a profession that has your "chocolate" flavor in it in 5 slots, then you need to do more research. If you still cant find a class that you like, the game probably doesnt have any classes that you like and is not the game for you. I had more to add and i am talking about anet if they wanted us to play the class needed for the game type should of giving us 9 open slots to have 9 different classes. OR let players change there class on the fly more then just elite spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > And to your last point, are you somehow suggesting that having the choice of only Chrono is somehow better than having multiple classes that can bring certain boons? Yes. the less specific builds required in a raid squad, the better, because this leaves more slots for people wanting to run whatever. And more dps slots available lessens the pressure on each individual dps player, allowing for suboptimal specs to be taken. Sure, Chrono being locked in support spot was bad, but a decision to extend that problem to more slots than before is a change for the worse. > How can you suggest that the status quo was any better than what Anet is working towards? Because having 5-6 slots locked will be worse than having 4 of them locked. If anything, Anet should have let chrono share boons for 10-man party (which would have eliminated one chrono from the composition), and allowed one-two more classes to be able to do the same. Then you'd have variation in support slot, and one more slot open in a squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > And to your last point, are you somehow suggesting that having the choice of only Chrono is somehow better than having multiple classes that can bring certain boons? > Yes. the less specific builds required in a raid squad, the better, because this leaves more slots for people wanting to run whatever. And more dps slots available lessens the pressure on each individual dps player, allowing for suboptimal specs to be taken. > Sure, Chrono being locked in support spot was bad, but a decision to extend that problem to more slots than before is a change for the worse. > > > How can you suggest that the status quo was any better than what Anet is working towards? > Because having 5-6 slots locked will be worse than having 4 of them locked. > > If anything, Anet should have let chrono share boons for 10-man party (which would have eliminated one chrono from the composition), and allowed one-two more classes to be able to do the same. Then you'd have variation in support slot, and one more slot open in a squad. > That is the opposite conclusion of what I come to. You are forced to roll Chrono if you want to be a support. There is literally no choice because of how much it brings to the table. Anet is saying you should have the choice of bringing a different profession to provide support. This brings viability and variability to other classes AND still allows more diversity in DPS roles. Your folks are very off base on this conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. **They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design.** > > > > I need to correct this: > > Boons did not stop being meaningful parts of combat due to them being permanent. > > > > **Boons are permanent BECAUSE the price to incorporate them is justified via the power bonus they give to a party/squad. Thus group compositions will continue to strive to achieve permanent boons until:** > > > > **The price for achieving permanent boons outpaces the benefits.** > > > > This imaginary world where boons will work as part time buffs will NEVER happen in the games current combat design. Even now raid guilds are working on achieving permanent boons for squads. This is evident in how required boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity) are being worked in while less desired boons (the rest) are not. > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > If you see their statements, Anet's not going to change _that_. They will just push for more restrictive comps accomplishing the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the way balance currently is headed, this might be the end result. > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > > > Sure, it's not hard to have every class. How does this address the issue of people wanting to play their desired class/role though? > > > > Justifying massive balance changes to certain classes with promise of other builds becoming available, then at the same time telling people to play something else because it is easy to level to 80 makes no sense. It was already possible to play support builds which were in demand. It was even possible to play support builds which were not in demand given a static or semi-static group (or experienced/relaxed PUG group). I don't see the benefit here. > > He's right on all of his points. > > And to your last point, are you somehow suggesting that having the choice of only Chrono is somehow better than having multiple classes that can bring certain boons? How can you suggest that the status quo was any better than what Anet is working towards? I get that you main a Chrono, but seriously, you should re-read your last paragraph. It literally makes no sense. I main mesmer (all builds), warrior (all builds), guardian (all builds) and thief (all builds) currently for raids. Why? Because I've been raiding ever since HoT launched week 1. I also own 3 legendary armors and around 14 sets of ascended as well as enough tokens and chests to get as many as 6-7 more sets right away if I wanted (or more, I didn't do an exact count since the stuff just collects dust on my bank). This has nothing to do with me favoring a class and all to do with the hassle of group composition and raid accessibility. Read my last point again, realize that you did not understand what I said. To explain: Chrono was not the only viable build pre nerf. Firebrand and Renegade were more than capable to to replace chrono. They are even more capable of doing so now. Nerfing chrono did nothing to promote Firebrand and Renegade. Improving Firebrand and Renegade made those builds more interesting. Dual chrono did allow for a very free and easy team composition though in which up to 7 spots were available to dps players. Listen carefully to this: unique boons and required effects per class will be a far far worse and less enjoyable meta if they ever manage to pull it off. The reasons for that are multi-fold, the main one is simple: not all classes see equal amount of play and not every role sees equal amount of desire (support roles are in general way less popular than damage roles). Having a strict meta where all 9 classes HAVE to be present will be terrible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. **They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design.** > > > > > > I need to correct this: > > > Boons did not stop being meaningful parts of combat due to them being permanent. > > > > > > **Boons are permanent BECAUSE the price to incorporate them is justified via the power bonus they give to a party/squad. Thus group compositions will continue to strive to achieve permanent boons until:** > > > > > > **The price for achieving permanent boons outpaces the benefits.** > > > > > > This imaginary world where boons will work as part time buffs will NEVER happen in the games current combat design. Even now raid guilds are working on achieving permanent boons for squads. This is evident in how required boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity) are being worked in while less desired boons (the rest) are not. > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > If you see their statements, Anet's not going to change _that_. They will just push for more restrictive comps accomplishing the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the way balance currently is headed, this might be the end result. > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > > > > > Sure, it's not hard to have every class. How does this address the issue of people wanting to play their desired class/role though? > > > > > > Justifying massive balance changes to certain classes with promise of other builds becoming available, then at the same time telling people to play something else because it is easy to level to 80 makes no sense. It was already possible to play support builds which were in demand. It was even possible to play support builds which were not in demand given a static or semi-static group (or experienced/relaxed PUG group). I don't see the benefit here. > > > > He's right on all of his points. > > > > And to your last point, are you somehow suggesting that having the choice of only Chrono is somehow better than having multiple classes that can bring certain boons? How can you suggest that the status quo was any better than what Anet is working towards? I get that you main a Chrono, but seriously, you should re-read your last paragraph. It literally makes no sense. > > I main mesmer (all builds), warrior (all builds), guardian (all builds) and thief (all builds) currently for raids. Why? Because I've been raiding ever since HoT launched week 1. > > Read my last point again, realize that you did not understand what I said. > > To explain: > Chrono was not the only viable build pre nerf. Firebrand and Renegade were more than capable to to replace chrono. They are even more capable of doing so now. Nerfing chrono did nothing to promote Firebrand and Renegade. Improving Firebrand and Renegade made those builds more interesting. > > Dual chrono did allow for a very free and easy team composition though in which up to 7 spots were available to dps players. > > Listen carefully to this: unique boons and required effects per class will be a far far worse and less enjoyable meta if they ever manage to pull it off. The reasons for that are multi-fold, the main one is simple: not all classes see equal amount of play and not every role sees equal amount of desire (support roles are in general way less popular than damage roles). Having a strict meta where all 9 classes HAVE to be present will be terrible. So you think Firebrand AND Rev is a fair trade for what a single Chrono can bring? Not sure how you conclude this?? Are you serious? To your points about having to bring 9 other professions and thinking that slots will be locked, and listen carefully here: You are assuming that support will be the only one to bring boons and/or that boons will not be overlapped or that classes will not be able to bring more than one. You are assuming that ANET will too greatly spread this out to professions or only give them single boons to share. I think you are intentionally doing this to create a worst case scenario. I highly doubt that will be ANETS tactic. Anet had to decentralize boons from chrono for the health of the game... it was the only choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. **They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design.** > > > > > > > > I need to correct this: > > > > Boons did not stop being meaningful parts of combat due to them being permanent. > > > > > > > > **Boons are permanent BECAUSE the price to incorporate them is justified via the power bonus they give to a party/squad. Thus group compositions will continue to strive to achieve permanent boons until:** > > > > > > > > **The price for achieving permanent boons outpaces the benefits.** > > > > > > > > This imaginary world where boons will work as part time buffs will NEVER happen in the games current combat design. Even now raid guilds are working on achieving permanent boons for squads. This is evident in how required boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity) are being worked in while less desired boons (the rest) are not. > > > > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > If you see their statements, Anet's not going to change _that_. They will just push for more restrictive comps accomplishing the same thing. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, the way balance currently is headed, this might be the end result. > > > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > > > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > > > > > > Cant see anything positive about this patch from a pve perspective. Their new direction regarding boons in pve means instanced content will become even more restrictive and some elite specs wont be viable at all anymore. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The changes to boons was long overdue. I have been saying that this was going to happen since basically a year into HoT. > > > > > > > The current state of both Boon Application and Duration is problematic. They've stopped being meaningful parts of combat because the power boost they contain has shifted to what people believe to be a permanant state and thus mandatory for encounters and their design. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That great at all but now you have overspecialization of classes and if that class dose not fall into that overspecialization then its not wanted at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to support and you dont have the right class with the right boon your out of luck. If you want to do dmg but cant bring any other effects that just that dmg your also out of luck. This game is going to become a much colder places unless you have 9 level 80 chaters with all elite spec unlocked. You are forced into having alts. > > > > > > > > > > > > Its realy the worst out come of what GW2 started out to be that different mmorpg because its become just like all other mmorpgs. > > > > > > > > > > You're acting like it's hard to have 1 of every class at 80. > > > > > > > > > > This game literally hands out free levels....It's a joke to level and any complaints about it should be filled in the recycling bin. > > > > > > > > > > Now then all your left with is what flavor of support you want. Well that's easy that's what specializations are for, so sorry if you want to ele support and give out alacrity that's not happening. You can however ele support and give out Prot, Regen, Might and pretty strong effects in the shape of Aura's. > > > > > > > > Sure, it's not hard to have every class. How does this address the issue of people wanting to play their desired class/role though? > > > > > > > > Justifying massive balance changes to certain classes with promise of other builds becoming available, then at the same time telling people to play something else because it is easy to level to 80 makes no sense. It was already possible to play support builds which were in demand. It was even possible to play support builds which were not in demand given a static or semi-static group (or experienced/relaxed PUG group). I don't see the benefit here. > > > > > > He's right on all of his points. > > > > > > And to your last point, are you somehow suggesting that having the choice of only Chrono is somehow better than having multiple classes that can bring certain boons? How can you suggest that the status quo was any better than what Anet is working towards? I get that you main a Chrono, but seriously, you should re-read your last paragraph. It literally makes no sense. > > > > I main mesmer (all builds), warrior (all builds), guardian (all builds) and thief (all builds) currently for raids. Why? Because I've been raiding ever since HoT launched week 1. > > > > Read my last point again, realize that you did not understand what I said. > > > > To explain: > > Chrono was not the only viable build pre nerf. Firebrand and Renegade were more than capable to to replace chrono. They are even more capable of doing so now. Nerfing chrono did nothing to promote Firebrand and Renegade. Improving Firebrand and Renegade made those builds more interesting. > > > > Dual chrono did allow for a very free and easy team composition though in which up to 7 spots were available to dps players. > > > > Listen carefully to this: unique boons and required effects per class will be a far far worse and less enjoyable meta if they ever manage to pull it off. The reasons for that are multi-fold, the main one is simple: not all classes see equal amount of play and not every role sees equal amount of desire (support roles are in general way less popular than damage roles). Having a strict meta where all 9 classes HAVE to be present will be terrible. > > So you think Firebrand AND Rev is a fair trade for what a single Chrono can bring? Not sure how you conclude this?? Are you serious? > 1 Firebrand and 1 Renegade can keep up perma alacrity and quickness. They could do so before the patch. It worked. > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > To your points about having to bring 9 other professions and thinking that slots will be locked, and listen carefully here: > > You are assuming that support will be the only one to bring boons and/or that boons will not be overlapped or that classes will not be able to bring more than one. You are assuming that ANET will too greatly spread this out to professions or only give them single boons to share. I think you are intentionally doing this to create a worst case scenario. I highly doubt that will be ANETS tactic. Anet had to decentralize boons from chrono for the health of the game... it was the only choice. It's called boon duration. If you assume that arenanet is going to allow every profession to give their boon as permanent you have no idea how gearing works. Gearing boon duration costs damage. It makes no difference how many slots in raids are taken by supports or support/hybrid builds. Any amount above 2 will cost dps slots. Less dps slots means more pressure on dps, means less room for weaker dps, means more and stricter requirements, means more toxicity and pressure. If you believe anything else, you have not played raids the last 3 years and are clueless (we HAD this before and in the past IN THIS GAME). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opopanax.1803 Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 You completely missed the first point. Completely. And of course gearing boon durations costs damage. However you aren't thinking about the ways that Anet could deal with this, but rather the old mentality of 100% boon duration being mandatory. It wont be if they share boons across more classes. Listen close: there wont be less dps slots. This is your pure conjecture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > You completely missed the first point. Completely. > > And of course gearing boon durations costs damage. However you aren't thinking about the ways that Anet could deal with this, but rather the old mentality of 100% boon duration being mandatory. It wont be if they share boons across more classes. > > Listen close: there wont be less dps slots. This is your pure conjecture. Soooo, there will be increased number of support slots, but still the same number of dps slots? That can be achieved only by dps specs offering support _at no dps cost_ (as a byproduct of their normal dps rotation). Sure, you can do it that way, but somehow i don't think it is what Anet has in mind. Mind you, i wouldn't care if the boon generation became mostly mindless and automatic, but i'm pretty sure all the people that are now complaining about chronos would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morte de Angelis.7986 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 As someone who hated the why that Chronos were, it wasn't because they could output all the boons in the game. It was that they could output all the boons in the game, while also having tons of Utility, while also being extremely tanky, while also have tons of CC. The only thing that a Chrono couldn't do effectivly as well as all that was DPS and it overshadowed any and all competition. Honestly, I would personally of been fine with Chrono outputting all the boons in the game to 10 people solo if they couldn't tank, CC or have a lot of utility while doing it. At least it gives the option for say FB + Rev to come in, output the most needed boons but also be able to help out on CC that Chrono couldn't on fights that needed a lot of CC for example. I personally think there were more elegant solutions to the Chrono "problem". But this is the way that Anet have handled it and we kinda just have to wait and see what happens next with the feedback from the community Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > Listen carefully to this: unique boons and required effects per class will be a far far worse and less enjoyable meta if they ever manage to pull it off. The reasons for that are multi-fold, the main one is simple: not all classes see equal amount of play and not every role sees equal amount of desire (support roles are in general way less popular than damage roles). Having a strict meta where all 9 classes HAVE to be present will be terrible. I must respectfully disagree. We've had this discussion at length before and i think there's a way forward that allows people to play the class and role they desire while bringing enough to the team to warrant the changes we're getting. What people are worried about that raid anyway (disregarding the Frank Sinatra Crowd here) is that at some point Damage + Utility > Raw Damage > Raw Utility and that's fair. That's why certain aspects need to be changed Boons are only the first part of that equation. I do think that there is a way in which most support builds are roughly equal with the boons they provide, may provide different status effects (Spotter/EA/etc..) and can all be roughly equal substitutes for each other. Granted this will only really work going forward older raids will suffer from the problems of infancy raid design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Opopanax.1803" said: > You completely missed the first point. Completely. > > And of course gearing boon durations costs damage. However you aren't thinking about the ways that Anet could deal with this, but rather the old mentality of 100% boon duration being mandatory. It wont be if they share boons across more classes. > > Listen close: there wont be less dps slots. This is your pure conjecture. Boon duration IS a Stat which has a unique purpose: enhance duration of boons. To believe that Arenanet will do away with this stats, which is possible, is pure speculation at this point in time. Your argument is: Well we might get to take multiple classes which provide boon X, multiple classes which provide boon Y and multiple classes that provide boon Z. As such boon duration will not be required. There are multiple inconsistencies with this train of thought: 1. This would be insane power creep 2. Given that 1 class would alway be best at damage and given boon, the remaining classes for this boon would be undesired and locked out 3. It would make boon duration as a Stat completely useless. Again while this might be an approach, it is highly unlikely I don't see any argument why dps slots would NOT suffer currently and you have not yet provided any reasonable argument that they will. Again we have had multiple iterations of raid squad metas and your theory has never been the case, unlike mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Listen carefully to this: unique boons and required effects per class will be a far far worse and less enjoyable meta if they ever manage to pull it off. The reasons for that are multi-fold, the main one is simple: not all classes see equal amount of play and not every role sees equal amount of desire (support roles are in general way less popular than damage roles). Having a strict meta where all 9 classes HAVE to be present will be terrible. > > I must respectfully disagree. We've had this discussion at length before and i think there's a way forward that allows people to play the class and role they desire while bringing enough to the team to warrant the changes we're getting. > > What people are worried about that raid anyway (disregarding the Frank Sinatra Crowd here) is that at some point Damage + Utility > Raw Damage > Raw Utility and that's fair. That's why certain aspects need to be changed Boons are only the first part of that equation. I do think that there is a way in which most support builds are roughly equal with the boons they provide, may provide different status effects (Spotter/EA/etc..) and can all be roughly equal substitutes for each other. Granted this will only really work going forward older raids will suffer from the problems of infancy raid design. > > We will see. What you are talking about is based on fixed roles and balance around those. ArenaNet has not gone down that road and I am not sure they want to or will. I do not see this as a possibility in this game without specific roles. It's not even well done in games WITH specific roles. Again a squad which requires all 9 classes (as lovely as that might sound in theory), will be incredibly restrictive. Balancing multiple classes round multiple effects like boons, damage and utility is insanely hard and unsuccessful every time tried so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Yasi.9065" said: > > @"reikken.4961" said: > > > @"zombyturtle.5980" said: > > > The problem is instead of required classes being 4 ( 2 chrono, 1 druid, 1 bs) we are now going to see 5 or 6 mandatory classes to cover all the important boons. > > > > Nah, this is wrong. The only boons that are important enough or exclusive enough to demand a specific class be used are quickness and alacrity. Which chrono still covers. > > The only other mandatory boons are might and fury, and that's given out by a _lot_ of different classes. Including druid and warrior. > > > > Just look at the state of raids a few years ago. The only boons assumed to be permanent were quickness, might, fury, regen, and swiftness. And regen and swiftness were just because they're trivial to maintain. > > You are forgetting protection, and yes, especially w5, w6 are more balanced around having protection. Just take dhuum for example. Bombs exploding on max range without protection still hurt you a LOT, especially low hp dps like eles and thieves. > > And while "alot" of other classes have SOME might, its neither 25 stacks nor 10man, basically forcing you to run druid if you dont want to add yet another mandatory - or two - roles to the squad. > > Take ren/fb comp for example. You have to get REALLY creative to stack 25 might on fb. You can do it with scepter symbol... or empowering might trait. But the former excludes you from other VERY important weapon sets - like axe for pulls or mace for blocks or hammer for cc - really limiting your utility to unacceptable levels, and the later needs precision. Now, thanks to SoC changes, you ALSO need full harriers to reach 100% boon duration. Harrier has? Correct, no precision. For empowering might to give out enough might to get to 25, you have to have around 50% crit chance. Good luck with that. > Now, that wouldnt be a problem, IF renegades might ability were 10 man. Newsflash - it isnt. So while you can cover 1 subgrp with all boons, the other misses around 10 stacks might. Bannerwarrior cant compensate that, his might is too short. Chrono could in the past but not anymore. And adding a druid just for might is pretty much the worst way to waste a slot. All of this means that you are limited to at least 5 mandatory slots now. 2x fb, 1x renegade, 1xbannerwarrior, and something like wh tempest, FE DE. And that doesnt even account for missing frostspirit and focus pulls. While you can forgo frostspirit, no focus pull means you need more cleave on some encounters. That in turn limits your DPS selection, which means even more rigid comps. > > Did you enjoy playing niche dps builds once in a while? Well, tough. No room for that anymore. I mean.. Staff is a thing? With Staff + Axe/Shield, you pretty much got might and Fury covered. If you are still struggling, Pack runes are a thing you can consider. I have been running FB in fractals (CM's + T4) countless times now. Since Altruism runes got killed, yea, Might is slightly spotty (~20-23 at times, using Monk runes) sometimes when there is no other might generation floating around at all, like DH's getting might from Retal always topping them of permanently. But really it's fine. You still crush 100CM in under 15 minutes. You also got good protection uptime, less so since the massive Tome CD increase, but maybe you just have to be smart about when you need protection now, instead of it being a permanent feature of any squad, wouldn't that be something. The every Boon in the game permanently due to one class was utterly boring and uninteresting. It's hilarious to see most of the community struggle to understand how other professions even work and what they can contribute, and to see their perception of what you actually need at all times, because OP Chrono doing everything for them (all boons, almost all CC, most mechanics etc) was all they ever knew. If people actually have to think about things like little boonrips, CC, mobility, boon contributions and squad composition now, just because one specialisation got nerfed, it really just showes how desperately it needed to happen. Balance is heading in a good direction with these patches. Yes, they are breaking some eggs to make an omelet here, but really, that's fine if you consider the longterm effect it will have, IF they get there. In addition all these problems you describe leading to deleting niche dps builds, would do the exact opposite. Niche problems create opportunity for niche builds. Need a bit more capability of pulling mobs together and massive AoE Cleave? Well, Reaper is a niche DPS that is almost universally not accepted in groups in the Chrono meta. Also provides some of those little required boon rips most people probably don't even know exist, like the blue guardian before VG (I didn't), because Chrono autoattack always took care of that without thought and effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 What is has come down to is the only thing this balance patch has done is added to to ranks of dead class players and it has become the majority of the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasi.9065 Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 > @"Asum.4960" said: > In addition all these problems you describe leading to deleting niche dps builds, would do the exact opposite. Niche problems create opportunity for niche builds. > Need a bit more capability of pulling mobs together and massive AoE Cleave? Well, Reaper is a niche DPS that is almost universally not accepted in groups in the Chrono meta. Also provides some of those little required boon rips most people probably don't even know exist, like the blue guardian before VG (I didn't), because Chrono autoattack always took care of that without thought and effort. No, Im sorry, but even though thats how it SHOULD be, the solution is actually to just bring more chronos. Hence the rage ;) Instead of anet buffing alternatives slightly to make them as good as chrono, and just nerfing cc (yes including focus pull btw) + buffed sustain (stability and resistance), they went and balanced it all in a way that its now most efficient to bring 3+ chronos in raids. At least 1x dps chrono and 2x 15-16k "buff" chronos. DPS chrono has atm highest burst, and if put together with a renegade it actually has the highest sustained dps as well. SoI not using concentration allows < 30% boon duration chronos to instead stack berserker armor, making that comp pretty much unbeatable. So much for promoting alternatives. /edit: Btw, Irenio posting how they will add more dps oriented concentration armor stat sets just shows that anet did NOT forsee this. Again. If they had, maybe they wouldnt have put DT on illusions and scaled SoI with concentration instead of giving a flat bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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