Writing the Gods and Elder Dragons

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> Secondly, charr do believe the Six are gods.

>

> Norn may have the Spirits of the Wild, but [they acknowledge](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Norn#Religion "they acknowledge") [the existence and power of the Six Gods](https://www.guildmag.com/gmblitz-lore-interview-with-jeff-grubb/ "the existence and power of the Six Gods"). So do the asura, who [think that the Six are just large parts of the Eternal Alchemy](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Varajar_Fells_Notebook), not non-existent or excluded from.

 

Char "need no Gods". That means they believe nothing about the six. They are not interested if they are gods or not - because "Charr need no Gods". And this explain very well the only charr belief: They can do anything a god can do (no matter if they will need centuries to do what a "god"can do in days. They eventually will be able to do the same). So, this is the charr belief.

 

For the Nords, I see the things a little different: Even if the Nords acknowledge the existence of the Six, they consider the Spirits of the Wild to be a more appropiated representation of a God. With other words, "Yes, the six are remarkable entities but we have our Gods. The six cannot compare with our Gods."

 

As for the Asuras - they are the closest to the real definition of what the six are: The six are part of the Eternal Alchemy. Like any asuran, like any charr, like any human. And, as we found when Balthazar tried to kill Jormag and Primordius, the six **obeys** the rules of the Eternal Alchemy. With other worlds, for the asuran the six are entirely common beings.

>

> Again, wrong. The Gods are more than "really powerful beings"

Can you give some proofs of what you claim? How are the human gods "more than really powerfull beings"?

>

> And nothing really defines why the humans ever began worshiping the Six, since we don't know of their connection in the previous world before entering Tyria.

This can be explained by the old Jotun stories -"In the begining the humans were as the grawls" - This can be a very plausible explanation.

 

 

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

>

> You completely missed the rational reasons WHY the gods would leave...

>

> >! Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.

> >! Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.

> >! Kormir: **And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity...**Or rather, most of us chose to.

 

Well, let's see what Kormir really says: If we fight the dragons, Tyria will be destroyed. So, to **save** Tyria they chose to withdraw.

 

What Kormir says is a **lie**. Coming from the "godess of truth". Because by leaving the world the gods don't spare it from further calamity. They let the world to become the victim of a calamity - the Elder Dragons.

 

So, in my opinion the rational reason of the gods exodus is completely irrational.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Aracz.4702" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> > Secondly, charr do believe the Six are gods.

>

> We should state how different races define gods (and how do we). And I wouldn't call it believe. They just know that they exist, it's undeniable fact (there is difference between faith and knowledge, but in terms of religion is a very/too philosophical topic + the myth is just the myth, in Western Culture we also have myths about Greece and Roman gods :S and it is part of our culture) . Also their power is undeniable, and it's for all the beings in tyria, for Elder Dragons too.

> As a something saint, a being to worship, and as a source of power, The Six are currently a gods for Humans and individuals/groups from other kinds.

> If it would be different, would they be on the side od Humans in every Human-Charr and Human-Centaur conflict?

 

_Before the time of the humans, it is said the Charr had no gods, no concept of divine beings with more power than themselves. They knew of Melandru, and even had legends that described how she created the world. But to the Charr, these beings were not to be worshiped or feared–they were to be fought, and if possible, destroyed._

 

After humans came and the charr were introduced with the idea of divinity, they gained creation myths of Melandru creating the world. That's shit gods and god-like beings do in any mythology. So the charr viewed the Six as gods and not just "powerful beings".

 

And just because the gods favor humans, doesn't mean non-humans cannot worship the Six. In fact, as has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, we have multiple cases of individuals and groups outside of humanity worshiping the Six either in full or partially. Doesn't mean the Six favored those worshipers, just that they were worshiped by them. However, favoring humans and Forgotten above other races, doesn't mean they are "the human gods" or "the Forgotten gods", as that kind of terminology belongs not to whom the gods favor, but to whom worships the gods in question.

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> Char "need no Gods". That means they believe nothing about the six. They are not interested if they are gods or not - because "Charr need no Gods". And this explain very well the only charr belief: They can do anything a god can do (no matter if they will need centuries to do what a "god"can do in days. They eventually will be able to do the same). So, this is the charr belief.

 

That's not what the statement means. Charr are not atheists, they're [antithiests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism "antithiests"). This means they accept divinity and godhood, but oppose it.

 

The "charr need no gods" just means that the charr do not need to rely on gods. [The statement comes from Pyre Fierceshot](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Revolution "The statement comes from Pyre Fierceshot") who was bent on overthrowing the Flame Legion and the Shaman Caste who were hellbent on the idea that charr needed the support of gods to counter humans and their support of gods. Pyre was not saying "gods do not exist!" he was saying "we do not need gods to win our battles, unlike those weak humans!"

 

**Context is key.**

 

> For the Nords, I see the things a little different: Even if the Nords acknowledge the existence of the Six, they consider the Spirits of the Wild to be a more appropiated representation of a God. With other words, "Yes, the six are remarkable entities but we have our Gods. The six cannot compare with our Gods."

 

Norn* not nord.

 

The Spirits of the Wild are gods to the norn, however. Though they do not use the term "gods" their level of reverence and the level of attribution the Spirits get are on par to gods.

 

Introduce Culture's A religion to another culture, and that second culture will not fully adopt Culture A's terms but utilize their own in relation to Culture A's. This is especially true for polytheistic faiths, who have no problem accepting that other pantheons exist out there.

 

Just because the norn do not call them "gods" by that term, doesn't mean they think less of them. It's just a matter of different cultural terminology meaning the same thing.

 

> As for the Asuras - they are the closest to the real definition of what the six are: The six are part of the Eternal Alchemy. Like any asuran, like any charr, like any human. And, as we found when Balthazar tried to kill Jormag and Primordius, the six **obeys** the rules of the Eternal Alchemy. With other worlds, for the asuran the six are entirely common beings.

 

I see nothing that proves that Balthazar "obeys the rules of Eternal Alchemy". But, by the way, the asuran's view of the Eternal Alchemy is how **everything** works together. Just because you're a part of the system that **includes all existence** doesn't mean you're not a god.

 

> > Again, wrong. The Gods are more than "really powerful beings"

> Can you give some proofs of what you claim? How are the human gods "more than really powerfull beings"?

 

I have, multiple times, in other threads. You just deny it because you're stuck on the monotheistic concept of godhood.

 

> > And nothing really defines why the humans ever began worshiping the Six, since we don't know of their connection in the previous world before entering Tyria.

> This can be explained by the old Jotun stories -"In the begining the humans were as the grawls" - This can be a very plausible explanation.

 

Except that Thrulnn the Lost is wrong on many accounts, and the relation between humans and gods is one proven thing that is wrong. Humans were brought ot the world by the Six Gods, so naturally the Six always had eyes on them, not just when "the humans came in boats from across the great water."

 

Besides, humanity had built Fahranur within [five years](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Timeline) of landing on the Tyrian/Elonian continents. Do you really think Grawl could build Fahranur and establish a kingdom within five year's time? Do you honestly think Thrulnn is telling the truth there?

 

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

> > @"Swagger.1459" said:

> >

> > You completely missed the rational reasons WHY the gods would leave...

> >

> > >! Kormir: We, the gods, saw there could be no victory in our inevitable conflict with the Elder Dragons.

> > >! Kormir: Waging war with them could only lead to the destruction of Tyria—and we, the Six, would be the match that would start the blaze.

> > >! Kormir: **And so, we chose to withdraw from Tyria altogether, and spare this world further calamity...**Or rather, most of us chose to.

>

> Well, let's see what Kormir really says: If we fight the dragons, Tyria will be destroyed. So, to **save** Tyria they chose to withdraw.

>

> What Kormir says is a **lie**. Coming from the "godess of truth". Because by leaving the world the gods don't spare it from further calamity. They let the world to become the victim of a calamity - the Elder Dragons.

 

She doesn't say "to save Tyria". Fuck man, she was literally quoted right there for you.

 

She says they withdrew to "spare this world further calamity". Meaning the calamity of Elder Dragons being killed. Not because she's lying, but because the Six Gods probably doubted the races would so easily do something that multiple cycles of races failed to do, especially when half of them were at each other's throats, both literally and figuratively, and one fifth of them didn't even exist yet.

 

You are twisting words that are being quoted to you for the sake of making your argument. You know what that means? That your argument is false.

[Aracz.4702]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

 

> And just because the gods favor humans, doesn't mean non-humans cannot worship the Six.

 

I haven't told anything like "non-humans cannot worship the Six" .-. And still, God in our (I mean, real persons, inhabitants of the Earth) perspective is something supreme. There is nothing more powerful (and for a lot of people of faith more important) than God (at least monotheistic concept of godhood). In Tyria, gods are really powerful beings, but not final form of thing. And only for worshippers they are holy or saint.

And in polytheistic point of view, gods are really powerfull beings with great power, who are to worship and follow, aren't they?

 

Still, I think... (quote from my previous post)"We should state how different races define gods (and how do we)"

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Aracz.4702" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> > And just because the gods favor humans, doesn't mean non-humans cannot worship the Six.

>

> I haven't told anything like "non-humans cannot worship the Six" .-. And still, God in our (I mean, real persons, inhabitants of the Earth) perspective is something supreme. There is nothing more powerful (and for a lot of people of faith more important) than God (at least monotheistic concept of godhood). In Tyria, gods are really powerful beings, but not final form of thing. And only for worshippers they are holy or saint.

> And in polytheistic point of view, gods are really powerfull beings with great power, who are to worship and follow, aren't they?

 

I'd say you're incorrect about "God in our perpsective is something supreme." That is the *monotheistic* view, largely adapted by the Abrahamic faiths. But if you look at most - if not all - polytheistic faiths in this world both modern and historical, there is seldom an "all powerful" god and seldom a "nothing can be more powerful than the gods" scenario. Just because three religions of the same root have a particular definition for what a god is, doesn't deny all other definitions for what a god is, especially when there are hundreds who define the term differently. This seems to be the main crux of Cristalyan's issue, too.

 

And in polytheistic view, gods are more than merely "really powerful beings". In most such religions, the gods were either directly born from, or are the (grand)children of those directly born from the primordial soup that created/would create all existence (aka whatever the myth's equivalent of the Big Bang was). Making the gods, effectively, the first beings or descended from such. In addition, in nearly every polytheistic religion, gods are unaging and capable of making species from the elements as well as transforming other beings.

 

In the Tyrian setting, the Six Gods are gods first and foremost because that's how ArenaNet defines them. But we do have actual attributes tied to them that no other being has. From what we've observed:

 

* Specific divine magic, which is [indestructible](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Goddess_of_Truth) and [needs a host](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon's_Gate#End_cinematic).

* Has an aura that blinds mortals that look upon them.

* Is capable of vast [terraforming](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six) and [transforming living beings](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Margonite).

* Over generations, has a specific domain their specific divine magic is connected to. Related: the knowledge and power of previous gods [combines](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon's_Gate#End_cinematic) with the knowledge and will of the replacement (when a god is killed).

* Body [breaks apart](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon's_Gate#End_cinematic) upon death, and [appears to be hollow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/To_Kill_a_God) (no blood, muscle, etc.). Related: They themselves do not seem to be biologically alive; Kormir is said to [have died](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Koss_on_Koss_%28book%29) upon ascending, while Balthazar [was scanned](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_%28story%29#Dialogue) and had no vitals registered, he merely registered on the scanner as pure magical energy.

* Divinity can be stripped without killing the god, draining them of power but not restoring their biological design. Despite this, Dwayna (if not all gods) can have children (this may or may not be related to the fact she's the goddess of life, unconfirmed).

* Unconfirmed but heavily implied: a single god cannot have the power of multiple gods nor can a god's power be divided (otherwise they would have split Abaddon's power among themselves).

 

These are attributes that no other being, not even the powerful Elder Dragons (except #3), have. And as such, by all indications, these are the things that make them "the Six Gods".

 

The question, really, is whether other gods - such as Koda, Zintl, or Mellaggan - hold any of these attributes.

 

> Still, I think... (quote from my previous post)"We should state how different races define gods (and how do we)"

Like I said before, they really all define gods the same, ultimately. Charr, norn, asura, Forgotten, naga, centaur; by evidence, they all consider the Six to be gods, whether or not they would worship them.

[Aracz.4702]

As I still think different races define gods in other ways (or just have other philosophy, for ones they are major, for other, minor, for ones allies and leaders, for other enemies), I am left to admit you are right. But not in 100%, and this is because irl humanity don't have only one officially accepted definition of god. In way which you presend The Six are gods, but in monotheism way of reasoning, they aren't. A complicated topic as for the conversation about the game :D

[Cristalyan.5728]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> I'd say you're incorrect about "God in our perpsective is something supreme." That is the *monotheistic* view, largely adapted by the Abrahamic faiths. But if you look at most - if not all - polytheistic faiths in this world both modern and historical, there is seldom an "all powerful" god and seldom a "nothing can be more powerful than the gods" scenario. Just because three religions of the same root have a particular definition for what a god is, doesn't deny all other definitions for what a god is, especially when there are hundreds who define the term differently. This seems to be the main crux of Cristalyan's issue, too.

 

I think the "godish essence" in all the definitions of the gods (the monotheisitc gods and the polytheistic gods also) is not **"nothing can be more powerful than the gods" scenario**, but the act of creation.

>

> And in polytheistic view, gods are more than merely "really powerful beings". In most such religions, the gods were either directly born from, or are the (grand)children of those directly born from the primordial soup that created/would create all existence (aka whatever the myth's equivalent of the Big Bang was). Making the gods, effectively, the first beings or descended from such. In addition, in nearly every polytheistic religion, gods are unaging and capable of making species from the elements as well as transforming other beings.

 

Exactly. Let's leave the real world and let's see the Gods story from another game (it is the single player game Elder Scrolls). There, the priomordial beings inhabiting the un iverse from the very first moment (with other words "parts"of the primordial Universe) decided to add some order in that Universe. And they started to create the World (the Mundus), the Other World (Oblivion - the future "house"of the primordial beings), the sky / celestial bodies etc. To ensure the eternity of the creation they realised they should put the own imortality / eternity into the created Universe. Some of them refused to do that and ran away. The rest completed the Creation and lost the immortality - they turned into still very powerfull entities eternal if not killed but **killable** (mortals with other words). And indeed they were killed by the other primordial beings who refused to participate to the creation.

Well, the Creators are known by the livings as "aedras"- the Creators and are worshipped as the true Gods. Although they are dead. The rest of the primordial beings, the part who refused to give up the imortality are the "daedra"- the ones who are not gods. So, although they are equally powerful, and even if the daedras cannot be killed, the difference is given by the creation act.

 

This is something a non god cannot do. To create. This is not a monotheistic point of view. Most of the polytheistic cultures considers the creation as the "thing" only a god can do.

>

> **In the Tyrian setting, the Six Gods are gods first and foremost because that's how ArenaNet defines them**. But we do have actual attributes tied to them that no other being has. From what we've observed:

>

> * Specific divine magic, which is [indestructible](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Goddess_of_Truth) and [needs a host](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon's_Gate#End_cinematic).

> * Has an aura that blinds mortals that look upon them.

> * Is capable of vast [terraforming](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six) and [transforming living beings](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Margonite).

> * Over generations, has a specific domain their specific divine magic is connected to. Related: the knowledge and power of previous gods [combines](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon's_Gate#End_cinematic) with the knowledge and will of the replacement (when a god is killed).

> * Body [breaks apart](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Abaddon's_Gate#End_cinematic) upon death, and [appears to be hollow](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/To_Kill_a_God) (no blood, muscle, etc.). Related: They themselves do not seem to be biologically alive; Kormir is said to [have died](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Koss_on_Koss_%28book%29) upon ascending, while Balthazar [was scanned](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Volcano_%28story%29#Dialogue) and had no vitals registered, he merely registered on the scanner as pure magical energy.

> * Divinity can be stripped without killing the god, draining them of power but not restoring their biological design. Despite this, Dwayna (if not all gods) can have children (this may or may not be related to the fact she's the goddess of life, unconfirmed).

> * Unconfirmed but heavily implied: a single god cannot have the power of multiple gods nor can a god's power be divided (otherwise they would have split Abaddon's power among themselves).

 

1. The explanation with the "divine magic" is laughable at best. First at all, a real God needs **nothing else** to be. Second, needing a host, that means the "gods" cannot manifest themselves until the point a host appears (either created or appearing naturally, as in the Darwin evolutionistic theory). So, this "god" cannot be god unless a living appears. But by its very destructive nature the "divine energy" prevents the aparition of any organised form of material - including life. PATHETIC explanation for a God.

2. The aura that can blind mortals - LOL! The chaos armor of the mesmers had this effect until few months ago. What I want to say is that blinding a mortal is NOT something worth to be considered a godish power. LOOOL ! Even more pathetic!

3. Vast terraforming and transforming living beings - are you talking about Elder Dragons here? Our post was about gods.

4. "Over generations, has a specific domain their specific divine magic is connected to". This and the first statement regarding the **indestructible** divine magic makes Kormir a joke - both statements combined means that Abadon is in fact alive (having now a new body). But even if Abadon is destroyed, the fact that a **human** can absorb its power means that Abadon may be everything but not a God.

 

I stop here - nothing stated before makes that ... beings to be gods. In the end we have only the statement: **In the Tyrian setting, the Six Gods are gods first and foremost because that's how ArenaNet defines them**. This is the only true thing. Too bad that the lore team only heard of gods from stories and from movies. Because none of the actual members (at least the members with power to decide the story direction) is a believer. This is a story about gods written by atheists inspired by Star Treck / Star Wars.

 

[ThatOddOne.4387]

And again, whilst that's your opinion, that's not what the Gods are in the Guild Wars universe. But they are still Gods because that's what the creators of the universe say they are.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Cristalyan.5728" said:

Except that the writers define gods in the Guild Wars franchise in this exact method.

 

Common definition and terminology means nothing if a writer decides it means something else in their specific setting.

 

For example, the words charr and dredge. These are adjectives and verbs, but the writers use them as the name of species.

 

ArenaNet says the Six are gods. Therefore, the Six are gods. No ands, ifs, or buts about it.

[Narcemus.1348]

I do have to point out that there are quite a few inaccuracies in your explanation of the skyrim creation story. For one, many Aedra fled the creation of Mundus because they knew that it would claim their power. In fact, the stars and sun are the holes that they left as they fled. Also, the Aedra and Daedra are separated out based on the primordial being that they came from, not how they responded to the creation of Mundus. Also, the creation of the world, if I recall correctly, was the idea of the spawn of Sithis, as a plan to destroy the Aedra by stealing all of their power into the mortal world...