The imbalance of balance changes

[phs.6089]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > Chrono used to be only pure support build. I wanted to play pure support build, that is why I played chrono. If firebrand becomes meta I will stop raiding simply because firebrand is not pure support spec but dps/support hybrid. I think the changes are not that bad. What I dont like is that right now, chronomancers performance is related to your teamates performance. If they move out of the stack for few seconds they might lose boons for many seconds with no way to reaply them. If there was a trait that would give 1 second quickness and alacrity after casting signet then everything would be fine. Right now there is no problem gameplaywise but the class is frustrating to play.

> >

> > Mercy Scourge? Harrier Rene? There are several full support classes and builds to play. The fact that your main isn't the top anymore hurts, I know.

> > But making ultimate decisions are not the way to go.

> >

> > BTW Commander crono does more damage then any hybrid FB

>

> Are we talking about pre or post patch? Since your statement about commander chrono doing more damage when getting played as support is plain incorrect (in both cases only that post patch Firebrand is even more ahead).

>

> Unless we are talking heal Firebrand, in which case Firebrand puts out massive amounts of Aegis, Healing AND Quickness.

>

> You really want to go down that road of comparison? Because I guarantee you that the only thing you are going to realize is how overpowered FB is and was. The only reason it was not viewed as such was because chrono still outperformed it in its niche role for raids (not even fractals) while FB dominated other game modes already (see WvW).

 

Thank the six there is class that can dominated a single abandoned game mode such as WvW cus rest was taken by crono.

I was happy to see a tanking scourge my last run, crono has got this game into a stagnation.

As far I as I'm sad looking at my 2 mesmers as I'm happy I can play other classes.

 

I'm checking 'Crusader' scourge now for tanking, I'm really glad I can work on figuring things out by myself and trying new build, now where there is no (yet) meta wall in players brains.

 

I was talking of prepatch comm crono vs any offensive support FB.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"phs.6089" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > Chrono used to be only pure support build. I wanted to play pure support build, that is why I played chrono. If firebrand becomes meta I will stop raiding simply because firebrand is not pure support spec but dps/support hybrid. I think the changes are not that bad. What I dont like is that right now, chronomancers performance is related to your teamates performance. If they move out of the stack for few seconds they might lose boons for many seconds with no way to reaply them. If there was a trait that would give 1 second quickness and alacrity after casting signet then everything would be fine. Right now there is no problem gameplaywise but the class is frustrating to play.

> > >

> > > Mercy Scourge? Harrier Rene? There are several full support classes and builds to play. The fact that your main isn't the top anymore hurts, I know.

> > > But making ultimate decisions are not the way to go.

> > >

> > > BTW Commander crono does more damage then any hybrid FB

> >

> > Are we talking about pre or post patch? Since your statement about commander chrono doing more damage when getting played as support is plain incorrect (in both cases only that post patch Firebrand is even more ahead).

> >

> > Unless we are talking heal Firebrand, in which case Firebrand puts out massive amounts of Aegis, Healing AND Quickness.

> >

> > You really want to go down that road of comparison? Because I guarantee you that the only thing you are going to realize is how overpowered FB is and was. The only reason it was not viewed as such was because chrono still outperformed it in its niche role for raids (not even fractals) while FB dominated other game modes already (see WvW).

>

> Thank the six there is class that can dominated a single abandoned game mode such as WvW cus rest was taken by crono.

> I was happy to see a tanking scourge my last run, crono has got this game into a stagnation.

> As far I as I'm sad looking at my 2 mesmers as I'm happy I can play other classes.

>

> I'm checking 'Crusader' scourge now for tanking, I'm really glad I can work on figuring things out by myself and trying new build, now where there is no (yet) meta wall in players brains.

>

> I was talking of prepatch comm crono vs any offensive support FB.

 

How far back exactly? Pre patch commander chrono was not a thing FYI. If a commander chrono with 4-5 pieces of harrier was out damaging your offensive support FB, you need to learn to play your class. That's also only the support chrono, not even talking about the tank chrono by the way which was way way way below any renegade damage wise.

[phs.6089]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > Chrono used to be only pure support build. I wanted to play pure support build, that is why I played chrono. If firebrand becomes meta I will stop raiding simply because firebrand is not pure support spec but dps/support hybrid. I think the changes are not that bad. What I dont like is that right now, chronomancers performance is related to your teamates performance. If they move out of the stack for few seconds they might lose boons for many seconds with no way to reaply them. If there was a trait that would give 1 second quickness and alacrity after casting signet then everything would be fine. Right now there is no problem gameplaywise but the class is frustrating to play.

> > > >

> > > > Mercy Scourge? Harrier Rene? There are several full support classes and builds to play. The fact that your main isn't the top anymore hurts, I know.

> > > > But making ultimate decisions are not the way to go.

> > > >

> > > > BTW Commander crono does more damage then any hybrid FB

> > >

> > > Are we talking about pre or post patch? Since your statement about commander chrono doing more damage when getting played as support is plain incorrect (in both cases only that post patch Firebrand is even more ahead).

> > >

> > > Unless we are talking heal Firebrand, in which case Firebrand puts out massive amounts of Aegis, Healing AND Quickness.

> > >

> > > You really want to go down that road of comparison? Because I guarantee you that the only thing you are going to realize is how overpowered FB is and was. The only reason it was not viewed as such was because chrono still outperformed it in its niche role for raids (not even fractals) while FB dominated other game modes already (see WvW).

> >

> > Thank the six there is class that can dominated a single abandoned game mode such as WvW cus rest was taken by crono.

> > I was happy to see a tanking scourge my last run, crono has got this game into a stagnation.

> > As far I as I'm sad looking at my 2 mesmers as I'm happy I can play other classes.

> >

> > I'm checking 'Crusader' scourge now for tanking, I'm really glad I can work on figuring things out by myself and trying new build, now where there is no (yet) meta wall in players brains.

> >

> > I was talking of prepatch comm crono vs any offensive support FB.

>

> How far back exactly? Pre patch commander chrono was not a thing FYI. If a commander chrono with 4-5 pieces of harrier was out damaging your offensive support FB, you need to learn to play your class. That's also only the support chrono, not even talking about the tank chrono by the way which was way way way below any renegade damage wise.

 

I don't play FB. Would you kindly stop personal offences toward me? I don't offend you, neither your knowledge or play-styles, right?

Comm/zerk crono is a thing, right? Or you deliberately mentioning build with lowest damage output

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"phs.6089" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > Chrono used to be only pure support build. I wanted to play pure support build, that is why I played chrono. If firebrand becomes meta I will stop raiding simply because firebrand is not pure support spec but dps/support hybrid. I think the changes are not that bad. What I dont like is that right now, chronomancers performance is related to your teamates performance. If they move out of the stack for few seconds they might lose boons for many seconds with no way to reaply them. If there was a trait that would give 1 second quickness and alacrity after casting signet then everything would be fine. Right now there is no problem gameplaywise but the class is frustrating to play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mercy Scourge? Harrier Rene? There are several full support classes and builds to play. The fact that your main isn't the top anymore hurts, I know.

> > > > > But making ultimate decisions are not the way to go.

> > > > >

> > > > > BTW Commander crono does more damage then any hybrid FB

> > > >

> > > > Are we talking about pre or post patch? Since your statement about commander chrono doing more damage when getting played as support is plain incorrect (in both cases only that post patch Firebrand is even more ahead).

> > > >

> > > > Unless we are talking heal Firebrand, in which case Firebrand puts out massive amounts of Aegis, Healing AND Quickness.

> > > >

> > > > You really want to go down that road of comparison? Because I guarantee you that the only thing you are going to realize is how overpowered FB is and was. The only reason it was not viewed as such was because chrono still outperformed it in its niche role for raids (not even fractals) while FB dominated other game modes already (see WvW).

> > >

> > > Thank the six there is class that can dominated a single abandoned game mode such as WvW cus rest was taken by crono.

> > > I was happy to see a tanking scourge my last run, crono has got this game into a stagnation.

> > > As far I as I'm sad looking at my 2 mesmers as I'm happy I can play other classes.

> > >

> > > I'm checking 'Crusader' scourge now for tanking, I'm really glad I can work on figuring things out by myself and trying new build, now where there is no (yet) meta wall in players brains.

> > >

> > > I was talking of prepatch comm crono vs any offensive support FB.

> >

> > How far back exactly? Pre patch commander chrono was not a thing FYI. If a commander chrono with 4-5 pieces of harrier was out damaging your offensive support FB, you need to learn to play your class. That's also only the support chrono, not even talking about the tank chrono by the way which was way way way below any renegade damage wise.

>

> I don't play FB. Would you kindly stop personal offences toward me? I don't offend you, neither your knowledge or play-styles, right?

> Comm/zerk crono is a thing, right? Or you deliberately mentioning build with lowest damage output

 

Comm/zerker chrono has not been a thing for over 2 patches...

 

No, I'm just in touch with the meta and what was played as in I played the classes I talk about, both FB and chrono.

 

Maybe when you are making statements then, add something like:"I assumed or thought" because you have been dead incorrect about chrono and FB for 3 patches now.

[Quex Fehftir.7619]

The whole entire problem with raiding, is that as a rule, it isn't supposed to be a 'casual' experience. It's meant to be harder content for which time and effort is meant to be put in, whether that means learning multiple professions, or how to play them etc. I understand wanting to be able to pick up any group of people you know so they can just raid, but it's something that not everyone is going to be cut out for putting in the time and effort to get geared/ learn specs and then learn the fights. IMO if you're having problems getting your group motivated to do what's required for raid content, perhaps you should just stick to Fractals? I honestly wish they added more regular dungeons or something, but this is just how it is. Imagine in games where you have 25man raids and you need to try and keep that many people as opposed to 10, what could you even hope to do if someone isn't willing to keep up with the game as it changes? Sometimes you won't like they changes, or don't want to deal with them, but it's a question for every player whether it's worth it or not.

 

Every single mmorpg out there rebalances the game as it's existence goes on, it's nothing unique to this game. Things are going to change, which is the reality of mmo's, or any games that are online and updates can be applied fairly regularly, which quite honestly is starting to become pretty common. There's always someone who won't be happy, but there isn't always something that you can do about it.

[ImperialWL.7138]

I feel the same as you, that right now (and it has been the case for the last few patches now) major changes are coming too quickly, and also the sheer unpredictability and randomness of the changes. I remember a year ago there were barely any meaningful changes, scourge and spellbreaker were overly strong in PvP/WvW, so were a lot of other specs recently with things like staff thief (made excessively strong in combination with critical strikes), soulbeasts, and holosmiths. Remember the profession related balanced changes every PvP season? You could say it was a balance patch every 3 months.

 

What's become the case now is, with every single patch (like Halloween, Wintersday, living story) some major balance patches are being sneaked in, most of them seemingly very poorly thought out. When scourges in PvP/WvW had big shade cd increased to 30s I thought, that was it, then the immediate patch after they introduced an absolutely broken sceptre 3 that completely goes back on the philosophy of nerfing corrupt spam which remains to this day. Remember sanctuary runes and the interaction with abrasive grit? A follow up patch gave the trait a 5s cd, which then again got reverted the immediate patch after. Instead of lowering the too high modifiers critical strikes gave you in combination with staff (Vault + steal one-shot combination that can instantly one shot multiple people) they instead straight up deleted the mechanic. Going back before all this, the entire herald traitline was changed into something resembling just another braindead dps spec (from a WvW perspective) at the same time deleting several interesting class specific mechanics (group aoe stun break, activating facet of nature after giving resistance to cover corrupts, superspeed on stunbreak) and I'm sad to see it's just more of the same now, that some interesting mechanics are simply deleted from the game such as superspeed being deleted from scrapper through gyros.

 

My main feeling is that, with any coming patch, anything in the game could be changed, and due to the balance team's poor understanding of competitive modes in general, they are often very big changes that have a severe impact on the game. Signet of inspiration and mimic had a huge impact on WvW as well, practically neutering Mesmer from organised WvW play since its impossible to share boons through chrono wells due to high movement required.

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"Burnhard Riemann.8650" said:

> But it feels like once a month we have to completely start over again. It puts a burden on me as the commander

Yeah I strongly agree with this. Its very annoying to have changes this frequently. If we could take the last 4 months worth of updates and have them all happen at once 4 months ago, that would have been a lot better, as it would have required only one regearing/relearning. Literally SC wasn't even done updating all its builds from the rune/sigil overhaul. And now Anet tells us they are going to release new gear soon that will further require regearing to be competitive.

 

It is really draining the fun out of the game. Not to mention, to me chrono doesn't even seem all that fun to play anymore. Its pretty annoying that I can't even tell what boons I'm sharing with people. I'm really hopping boon chrono falls out of the meta so I don't have to play it ever again.

 

> @"Burnhard Riemann.8650" said:

>I get why regularly shaking up the meta is good for veteran raiders, but it doesn't seem to do any good for my group.

 

I think I fit the description of a veteran raider with like 1300 LI, doesn't seem great for me either. Rather than a changing meta, where we are forced to play one thing or another, I prefer a balanced meta where we have options.

 

 

 

 

 

[Grogba.6204]

 

Just rollback this patch, think it through for real this time and bring a proper patch with the next episode. This is getting ridiculous.

[Draco.9480]

they made false boon bots in the game and after 3 years they remembered to fix it. just like epidemic 5.5 years and distortions 5 years. many people get demotivated from that however most of 'em were healthy except this one. last patch was unreasonable cuz they broke things they shouldn't have touch. they plan to make all specs to bring unique boons however they can't just make half job. they started to fix something but broke others things and didn't attend to 'em and now they'll delay it to whoever knows when. i really understand why chrono shouldn't bring all 11 boons to the table and camp it as support but you made people play dps chrono only and abuse the SoI now and make thing more broken.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

>

>

> Just rollback this patch, think it through for real this time and bring a proper patch with the next episode. This is getting rediculous.

 

I would direct everyone to the first couple of times I mentioned this as far back as 1-2 days after the patch last week but then no one cared.

 

It needed a reddit thread to actually make people aware of this. Funny enough, this cuts out almost ALL other classes, talk about restrictive. No worries though, it can be combined with a couple of different damage dealers, say 2 chronos as tank and support and 2-3 more as dps (which is great, since power chrono and condi mirage bring good benchmarks, so no more forced reloging depending on boss). That leaves 2-3 spots for any other damage dealer, healer and 1 banner slave.

 

The funny thing, just as the all boon sharing last cycle. No one asked for this from the mesmer/chrono/mirage community. It was forced on us and as always it will be a great reason (and quite justified in this case) to nerf the class even further, in probably completely different areas. In the eyes of the masses it will be once again overpowered mesmer complaining about their class getting re-balanced, just like now.

[Grogba.6204]

As long as permanent uptime of boons is fearsible said uptime _will_ shape the end game experience. It doesn't matter if Chrono, Firebrand or Renegade accomplishes this.

The difference in damage output between no boons and boons is just too big. You could nerf chrono out of the game and the problem won't go away. The only difference would be that groups/squads would then be build around Firebrand/Renegade to achieve (almost) the same chronos were able to do until now.

 

**As people on these boards have been saying for months: Rather than nerfing/reworking Chronomancer every. single. patch. (and shifting power around/breaking the class even further as a result because the balance team itself seems to have absolutely no idea about the content and players it balances around) Making Firebrand and Renegade more fun to play or branching out (aka buffing) other support options would have made comp building easier and more open. You cannot balance support to make it optional. The entire idea of support is enhancing/accelerating the classes around you. If Support is strong you absolutely want a support. If Support is weak you just ignore support and add another DPS.**

 

You can remove Alacrity, gut Quickness to 25%. If permanent uptime of boons is possible (and Anet already confirmed more concentration oriented gear in the future) it will dictate build composition and it is ridiculous that we have to explain that to the devs every other patch.

[Zenith.7301]

All the cries about chrono when power herald was in the dumpster and with this patch they "buffed" them in a manner that actually gutted their DPS and rotation even more.

 

Same for power reaper. At least chrono is still as close to meta as it gets. The two suffering specs instead got "buffs" that were actually nerfs.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Grogba.6204" said:

> As long as permanent uptime of boons is fearsible said uptime _will_ shape the end game experience. It doesn't matter if Chrono, Firebrand or Renegade accomplishes this.

> The difference in damage output between no boons and boons is just too big. You could nerf chrono out of the game and the problem won't go away. The only difference would be that groups/squads would then be build around Firebrand/Renegade to achieve (almost) the same chronos were able to do until now.

>

> **As people on these boards have been saying for months: Rather than nerfing/reworking Chronomancer every. single. patch. (and shifting power around/breaking the class even further as a result because the balance team itself seems to have absolutely no idea about the content and players it balances around) Making Firebrand and Renegade more fun to play or branching out (aka buffing) other support options would have made comp building easier and more open. You cannot balance support to make it optional. The entire idea of support is enhancing/accelerating the classes around you. If Support is strong you absolutely want a support. If Support is weak you just ignore support and add another DPS.**

>

> You can remove Alacrity, gut Quickness to 25%. If permanent uptime of boons is possible (and Anet already confirmed more concentration oriented gear in the future) it will dictate build composition and it is ridiculous that we have to explain that to the devs every other patch.

Boons being permanent or not do not matter here. All that matters is if the boons are worth taking or not. If they are, they will shape the meta (and the option taken will be the one that offers most of boons for the least dps loss). If they aren't, they will be just plain ignored.

 

> @"Zenith.7301" said:

> All the cries about chrono when power herald was in the dumpster and with this patch they "buffed" them in a manner that actually gutted their DPS and rotation even more.

>

> Same for power reaper. At least chrono is still as close to meta as it gets. The two suffering specs instead got "buffs" that were actually nerfs.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, Anet did make balance errors before. That's not a justification for why them continuing doing so is okay. Because it wasn't then, and it isn't now.

[zealex.9410]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Burnhard Riemann.8650" said:

> > What can I do to help motivate these players to keep trying despite getting set back and demoralized constantly?

> You really can't. I mean, you can try to, but this situation is going to repeat over and over again. If someone is discouraged now (which, by the way, is completely understandable, it's quite discouraging for me as well), they wil continue to be more and more discouraged in the future. Basically, at the moment only one class role (dps necro) can be considered to be safe, and only because it has already been nerfed to the point people playing it can't really have any hope left.

>

> > I get why regularly shaking up the meta is good for veteran raiders

> Is it? I mean, the only "good" thing from it would be eliminating new-ish players and making raids even more exclusive than they already are. And i'm not so sure it's really all that good.

>

> > but it doesn't seem to do any good for my group.

> It's not good for anyone. The "dynamic balance" idea Anet came up with long ago has always been of questionable value. And it will continue to keep many players out of the endgame content now and in the future, unless it is abandoned.

>

>

>

 

Dynamic balance? Whats this supposed to be? Balance hasnt felt diff here than it has in lest say wow.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> Dynamic balance? Whats this supposed to be? Balance hasnt felt diff here than it has in lest say wow.

 

That was the idea that has been floated in the pvp forums (from the dev side) in the first year of the game. Basically, that it's okay that some builds are heavily unbalanced (both ways), because Anet's intention is to shake up _which_ build/class is imbalanced every season or so. And supposedly this would make for an interesting game, beause it would force players to adjust to a newly changed wildly different meta.

 

Basically, the game is supposed to be balanced only when you average the balance state over a very long period of time, but at any given moment it will be unbalanced (just each time in a different way). And if a meta forms, after a time someone needs to kick it hard to make it fall apart. Even if it was a good and balanced one.

 

I have no idea if this design goal is still used, but some design choices do make me think that at least some vestiges of it might yet remain.