Obtena.7952 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 1. As for your first statement, I doubt you know that for a fact. 2. As for your second statement, that's just an ad hominem ... It's simply not a forgone conclusion that people that play how they want are bad players. Besides, nothing here changes what I've said; badmouthing people that play how they want as bad players doesn't change the fact they join your maps and act as dead weight, as the game intended. Maybe what needs to happen is a counter-culture to the one you're in so that WvW doesn't become an exclusive club of play-hards that theory-craft themselves into extinction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 > @"messiah.1908" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp. > > > > They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify. > > > > Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff. > > > > Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again. > > same goes for SB warrior . pull out his bobble and w8... > mesmer is valid for his veil/portal tactics. same as mesmer used to be from the start of wvw. he never was hard support and always his healing output were low. > now mesmer due to increase cd on FB abilities can prolong the duration of the boons which can buy the FB time for cd's. yes its more tricky and need communications. > but the fact stay the same. mesmer role hardly change for 5 years (even more) Well that's not true at all. The spellbreaker role *begins* with dropping the bubble, but it doesn't *end* there. Spb has very respectable damage throughout a fight, often competing with the lower-skilled heralds and scourges. Additionally, Spb continues to provide powerful boon stripping through break enchantments and traits that trigger to strip boons. Lastly, Spb is the best WvW control class in the game with multiple low cooldown aoe hard cc abilities. Additionally, what you identified as the Mesmer role doesn't matter at all. Extending boons is useless in WvW because they get stripped. The only type of boon control that matters is actual boon *application*. Since Mesmer can no longer apply fresh boons, they're helpless when boons get removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > 1. As for your first statement, I doubt you know that for a fact. > 2. As for your second statement, that's just an ad hominem ... It's simply not a forgone conclusion that people that play how they want are bad players. > > Besides, nothing here changes what I've said; badmouthing people that play how they want as bad players doesn't change the fact they join your maps and act as dead weight, as the game intended. Maybe what needs to happen is a counter-culture to the one you're in so that WvW doesn't become an exclusive club of play-hards that theory-craft themselves into extinction. Regardless of whether some sort of "WvW counter-culture" forms, the dynamic of the game won't change. At the end of the day, what I already stated will hold true: people play the game to have fun, winning is fun, people play to win. Losing is not fun, regardless of what whacky builds you play while losing, and groups that get steamrolled all the time have a heavily limited life expectancy due to that. Successful groups keep going, unsuccessful groups dissolve, that's the way of things. Lastly, you've still failed to address one of the basic problems with these changes to Chrono: Chrono is no longer fun to play. You can play however you want, but it still won't be fun. Chrono can't deal damage in a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't heal a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't provide boon support to a group, that's not fun. Tossing out 3 skills then entering observer mode isn't fun. No amount of play how you want can fix that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messiah.1908 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"messiah.1908" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp. > > > > > > They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify. > > > > > > Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff. > > > > > > Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again. > > > > same goes for SB warrior . pull out his bobble and w8... > > mesmer is valid for his veil/portal tactics. same as mesmer used to be from the start of wvw. he never was hard support and always his healing output were low. > > now mesmer due to increase cd on FB abilities can prolong the duration of the boons which can buy the FB time for cd's. yes its more tricky and need communications. > > but the fact stay the same. mesmer role hardly change for 5 years (even more) > > Well that's not true at all. The spellbreaker role *begins* with dropping the bubble, but it doesn't *end* there. Spb has very respectable damage throughout a fight, often competing with the lower-skilled heralds and scourges. Additionally, Spb continues to provide powerful boon stripping through break enchantments and traits that trigger to strip boons. Lastly, Spb is the best WvW control class in the game with multiple low cooldown aoe hard cc abilities. > > Additionally, what you identified as the Mesmer role doesn't matter at all. Extending boons is useless in WvW because they get stripped. The only type of boon control that matters is actual boon *application*. Since Mesmer can no longer apply fresh boons, they're helpless when boons get removed. spb dmg is low in wvw compare to other class . his main abilities comes from hammer CC abilities and bobble. that is it! regarding boon stripping again with bobble and also memser can do so with null field. with lower cd... so yes mesmer and spb are supporting the fight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 > @"messiah.1908" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"messiah.1908" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp. > > > > > > > > They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify. > > > > > > > > Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff. > > > > > > > > Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again. > > > > > > same goes for SB warrior . pull out his bobble and w8... > > > mesmer is valid for his veil/portal tactics. same as mesmer used to be from the start of wvw. he never was hard support and always his healing output were low. > > > now mesmer due to increase cd on FB abilities can prolong the duration of the boons which can buy the FB time for cd's. yes its more tricky and need communications. > > > but the fact stay the same. mesmer role hardly change for 5 years (even more) > > > > Well that's not true at all. The spellbreaker role *begins* with dropping the bubble, but it doesn't *end* there. Spb has very respectable damage throughout a fight, often competing with the lower-skilled heralds and scourges. Additionally, Spb continues to provide powerful boon stripping through break enchantments and traits that trigger to strip boons. Lastly, Spb is the best WvW control class in the game with multiple low cooldown aoe hard cc abilities. > > > > Additionally, what you identified as the Mesmer role doesn't matter at all. Extending boons is useless in WvW because they get stripped. The only type of boon control that matters is actual boon *application*. Since Mesmer can no longer apply fresh boons, they're helpless when boons get removed. > > spb dmg is low in wvw compare to other class . his main abilities comes from hammer CC abilities and bobble. that is it! > regarding boon stripping again with bobble and also memser can do so with null field. with lower cd... > so yes mesmer and spb are supporting the fight Null field is on a 25s cooldown, slowly strips boons up to 5 times in a 240 radius aoe. Break enchantments strips 3 boons instantly in a 360 radius aoe (that's over 2x the area of effect) on a 15 second cooldown. It's vastly superior to null field by itself. However, that's also amplified by enchantment collapse, stripping even more boons in an aoe. Additionally, dispelling force makes all cc remove boons as well, so spellbreaker is a continual boon stripping machine. The main Spb cc comes from hammer and full counter, but earthshaker is on an 8 second cooldown **and** gets reset when you land full counter. Full counter itself is on a 12s cooldown, so Spb is able to almost continually chain large cc skills with skilled play. The roles and capabilities of Chrono and spellbreaker are not even remotely comparable, and trying to draw meaningful comparisons is absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > 1. As for your first statement, I doubt you know that for a fact. > > 2. As for your second statement, that's just an ad hominem ... It's simply not a forgone conclusion that people that play how they want are bad players. > > > > Besides, nothing here changes what I've said; badmouthing people that play how they want as bad players doesn't change the fact they join your maps and act as dead weight, as the game intended. Maybe what needs to happen is a counter-culture to the one you're in so that WvW doesn't become an exclusive club of play-hards that theory-craft themselves into extinction. > > Regardless of whether some sort of "WvW counter-culture" forms, the dynamic of the game won't change. At the end of the day, what I already stated will hold true: people play the game to have fun, winning is fun, people play to win. Losing is not fun, regardless of what whacky builds you play while losing, and groups that get steamrolled all the time have a heavily limited life expectancy due to that. Successful groups keep going, unsuccessful groups dissolve, that's the way of things. > > Lastly, you've still failed to address one of the basic problems with these changes to Chrono: Chrono is no longer fun to play. You can play however you want, but it still won't be fun. Chrono can't deal damage in a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't heal a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't provide boon support to a group, that's not fun. Tossing out 3 skills then entering observer mode isn't fun. No amount of play how you want can fix that. That's your choice ... not everything that is fun is effective in whatever game mode you like; it's always been that way and I don't see why it should be different in this case. You can play for many reasons but don't expect to get all those reasons wrapped up in a single build for any specific class. From my experience in this game, playing fun and optimal builds is a rarity in this game and while optimal is measurable, fun is not. So expecting Anet to make it fun for you is very unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xstein.2187 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > 1. As for your first statement, I doubt you know that for a fact. > > > 2. As for your second statement, that's just an ad hominem ... It's simply not a forgone conclusion that people that play how they want are bad players. > > > > > > Besides, nothing here changes what I've said; badmouthing people that play how they want as bad players doesn't change the fact they join your maps and act as dead weight, as the game intended. Maybe what needs to happen is a counter-culture to the one you're in so that WvW doesn't become an exclusive club of play-hards that theory-craft themselves into extinction. > > > > Regardless of whether some sort of "WvW counter-culture" forms, the dynamic of the game won't change. At the end of the day, what I already stated will hold true: people play the game to have fun, winning is fun, people play to win. Losing is not fun, regardless of what whacky builds you play while losing, and groups that get steamrolled all the time have a heavily limited life expectancy due to that. Successful groups keep going, unsuccessful groups dissolve, that's the way of things. > > > > Lastly, you've still failed to address one of the basic problems with these changes to Chrono: Chrono is no longer fun to play. You can play however you want, but it still won't be fun. Chrono can't deal damage in a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't heal a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't provide boon support to a group, that's not fun. Tossing out 3 skills then entering observer mode isn't fun. No amount of play how you want can fix that. > > That's your choice ... not everything that is fun is effective in whatever game mode you like; it's always been that way and I don't see why it should be different in this case. You can play for many reasons but don't expect to get all those reasons wrapped up in a single build for any specific class. From my experience in this game, playing fun and optimal builds is a rarity in this game and while optimal is measurable, fun is not. So expecting Anet to make it fun for you is very unrealistic. . . . I'm confused. Why are you even posting about balancing if you don't care about it? Helz, anyone could say what you said to any balance decision that was ever made in this game. If you don't care about balance, than you do you. However, some people care about winning and being successful-which is based on balance. That is how they derive much of their fun in this game. It's not as easy as saying you should change what is fun for you. Helz, if I could do that, I would just say bagging on the streets for money or working at fast-food is my new version of fun. Than I could go about having blissful fun for the rest of my life. However, it doesn't work that way. I just can't change myself to actually have fun working fast food or bagging on the streets. So, no, fun is not just a simple choice. Ya, sure you can have fun working or begging on the streets. However, most will not, just like how most will not have fun pressing 3 buttons and then twiddling their thumbs. Interactive game play is an important aspect of fun to many people, just like winning and being successful. These might not be necessary variables to have fun for you. But if that is the case, don't just go saying that you should simply change what you perceive as fun. I can't help seeing a similarity between your argument and Pascal's Wager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messiah.1908 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > @"messiah.1908" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > @"messiah.1908" said: > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp. > > > > > > > > > > They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify. > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff. > > > > > > > > > > Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again. > > > > > > > > same goes for SB warrior . pull out his bobble and w8... > > > > mesmer is valid for his veil/portal tactics. same as mesmer used to be from the start of wvw. he never was hard support and always his healing output were low. > > > > now mesmer due to increase cd on FB abilities can prolong the duration of the boons which can buy the FB time for cd's. yes its more tricky and need communications. > > > > but the fact stay the same. mesmer role hardly change for 5 years (even more) > > > > > > Well that's not true at all. The spellbreaker role *begins* with dropping the bubble, but it doesn't *end* there. Spb has very respectable damage throughout a fight, often competing with the lower-skilled heralds and scourges. Additionally, Spb continues to provide powerful boon stripping through break enchantments and traits that trigger to strip boons. Lastly, Spb is the best WvW control class in the game with multiple low cooldown aoe hard cc abilities. > > > > > > Additionally, what you identified as the Mesmer role doesn't matter at all. Extending boons is useless in WvW because they get stripped. The only type of boon control that matters is actual boon *application*. Since Mesmer can no longer apply fresh boons, they're helpless when boons get removed. > > > > spb dmg is low in wvw compare to other class . his main abilities comes from hammer CC abilities and bobble. that is it! > > regarding boon stripping again with bobble and also memser can do so with null field. with lower cd... > > so yes mesmer and spb are supporting the fight > > Null field is on a 25s cooldown, slowly strips boons up to 5 times in a 240 radius aoe. Break enchantments strips 3 boons instantly in a 360 radius aoe (that's over 2x the area of effect) on a 15 second cooldown. It's vastly superior to null field by itself. However, that's also amplified by enchantment collapse, stripping even more boons in an aoe. Additionally, dispelling force makes all cc remove boons as well, so spellbreaker is a continual boon stripping machine. > > The main Spb cc comes from hammer and full counter, but earthshaker is on an 8 second cooldown **and** gets reset when you land full counter. Full counter itself is on a 12s cooldown, so Spb is able to almost continually chain large cc skills with skilled play. > > The roles and capabilities of Chrono and spellbreaker are not even remotely comparable, and trying to draw meaningful comparisons is absurd. thus support role nothing else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 > @"Xstein.2187" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > 1. As for your first statement, I doubt you know that for a fact. > > > > 2. As for your second statement, that's just an ad hominem ... It's simply not a forgone conclusion that people that play how they want are bad players. > > > > > > > > Besides, nothing here changes what I've said; badmouthing people that play how they want as bad players doesn't change the fact they join your maps and act as dead weight, as the game intended. Maybe what needs to happen is a counter-culture to the one you're in so that WvW doesn't become an exclusive club of play-hards that theory-craft themselves into extinction. > > > > > > Regardless of whether some sort of "WvW counter-culture" forms, the dynamic of the game won't change. At the end of the day, what I already stated will hold true: people play the game to have fun, winning is fun, people play to win. Losing is not fun, regardless of what whacky builds you play while losing, and groups that get steamrolled all the time have a heavily limited life expectancy due to that. Successful groups keep going, unsuccessful groups dissolve, that's the way of things. > > > > > > Lastly, you've still failed to address one of the basic problems with these changes to Chrono: Chrono is no longer fun to play. You can play however you want, but it still won't be fun. Chrono can't deal damage in a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't heal a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't provide boon support to a group, that's not fun. Tossing out 3 skills then entering observer mode isn't fun. No amount of play how you want can fix that. > > > > That's your choice ... not everything that is fun is effective in whatever game mode you like; it's always been that way and I don't see why it should be different in this case. You can play for many reasons but don't expect to get all those reasons wrapped up in a single build for any specific class. From my experience in this game, playing fun and optimal builds is a rarity in this game and while optimal is measurable, fun is not. So expecting Anet to make it fun for you is very unrealistic. > > . . . I'm confused. Why are you even posting about balancing if you don't care about it? You're confused because it has nothing to do with balance. Anet has no chance to appeal to every single players sense of fun AND effective builds for every class and espec for every game mode. That's just unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyroatheist.9031 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 > @"messiah.1908" said: > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > @"messiah.1908" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > @"messiah.1908" said: > > > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > > Chrono is pretty awful in WvW groups right now. I play with arguably one of the most effective comped guilds in the game, and we've been evaluating chronos for our comp. > > > > > > > > > > > > They still bring useful utility in the form of veil, gravity well, and signet of inspiration. However, that's it. Previously you could replace another pillar class with Chrono; that's no longer true. Now you have to consume a dps spot for the Chrono, and that makes them harder to justify. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ultimately, we still run chronos sometimes. They're decent to drive on still, as firebrand driver doesn't gracefully provide party support anyway, but fitting one into the rest of the comp is very difficult. We've been running without any chronos but the driver, and that feels pretty good. It still allows us to have veil without sacrificing too much. We've also been running more just without chronos at all. Lacking veil is unfortunate, but really it just means we need to be more careful with how we engage. Long term, I don't think we're going to use Chronos on a regular basis, just for niche stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then to touch on a different aspect of this change, one part of this comp change was driven by the fact that Chrono is miserable to play in WvW groups now. You drop veil, you hit soi, you use gravity well and focus pull, and you press shield 5. Congratulations, you're done. You can't provide more boons. You can't heal. You can't provide effective stability. You can't deal damage. You just jam your thumb up your kitten and watch the rest of your group play the game for the next minute. After the first day of this, every single person on Chrono in the group remarked that it sucked and they'd rather not ever play it again. > > > > > > > > > > same goes for SB warrior . pull out his bobble and w8... > > > > > mesmer is valid for his veil/portal tactics. same as mesmer used to be from the start of wvw. he never was hard support and always his healing output were low. > > > > > now mesmer due to increase cd on FB abilities can prolong the duration of the boons which can buy the FB time for cd's. yes its more tricky and need communications. > > > > > but the fact stay the same. mesmer role hardly change for 5 years (even more) > > > > > > > > Well that's not true at all. The spellbreaker role *begins* with dropping the bubble, but it doesn't *end* there. Spb has very respectable damage throughout a fight, often competing with the lower-skilled heralds and scourges. Additionally, Spb continues to provide powerful boon stripping through break enchantments and traits that trigger to strip boons. Lastly, Spb is the best WvW control class in the game with multiple low cooldown aoe hard cc abilities. > > > > > > > > Additionally, what you identified as the Mesmer role doesn't matter at all. Extending boons is useless in WvW because they get stripped. The only type of boon control that matters is actual boon *application*. Since Mesmer can no longer apply fresh boons, they're helpless when boons get removed. > > > > > > spb dmg is low in wvw compare to other class . his main abilities comes from hammer CC abilities and bobble. that is it! > > > regarding boon stripping again with bobble and also memser can do so with null field. with lower cd... > > > so yes mesmer and spb are supporting the fight > > > > Null field is on a 25s cooldown, slowly strips boons up to 5 times in a 240 radius aoe. Break enchantments strips 3 boons instantly in a 360 radius aoe (that's over 2x the area of effect) on a 15 second cooldown. It's vastly superior to null field by itself. However, that's also amplified by enchantment collapse, stripping even more boons in an aoe. Additionally, dispelling force makes all cc remove boons as well, so spellbreaker is a continual boon stripping machine. > > > > The main Spb cc comes from hammer and full counter, but earthshaker is on an 8 second cooldown **and** gets reset when you land full counter. Full counter itself is on a 12s cooldown, so Spb is able to almost continually chain large cc skills with skilled play. > > > > The roles and capabilities of Chrono and spellbreaker are not even remotely comparable, and trying to draw meaningful comparisons is absurd. > > thus support role nothing else. Please, for the enlightenment of everyone here, clarify how you feel that a class with an ongoing offensive utility role requiring continual skilled play for the duration of a fight is comparable with a class that has a momentary utility role that then ceases to exist for the rest of a fight. I'm very curious, and I'm sure the rest of the folks here would appreciate learning your wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xstein.2187 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Xstein.2187" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Pyroatheist.9031" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > 1. As for your first statement, I doubt you know that for a fact. > > > > > 2. As for your second statement, that's just an ad hominem ... It's simply not a forgone conclusion that people that play how they want are bad players. > > > > > > > > > > Besides, nothing here changes what I've said; badmouthing people that play how they want as bad players doesn't change the fact they join your maps and act as dead weight, as the game intended. Maybe what needs to happen is a counter-culture to the one you're in so that WvW doesn't become an exclusive club of play-hards that theory-craft themselves into extinction. > > > > > > > > Regardless of whether some sort of "WvW counter-culture" forms, the dynamic of the game won't change. At the end of the day, what I already stated will hold true: people play the game to have fun, winning is fun, people play to win. Losing is not fun, regardless of what whacky builds you play while losing, and groups that get steamrolled all the time have a heavily limited life expectancy due to that. Successful groups keep going, unsuccessful groups dissolve, that's the way of things. > > > > > > > > Lastly, you've still failed to address one of the basic problems with these changes to Chrono: Chrono is no longer fun to play. You can play however you want, but it still won't be fun. Chrono can't deal damage in a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't heal a group, that's not fun. Chrono can't provide boon support to a group, that's not fun. Tossing out 3 skills then entering observer mode isn't fun. No amount of play how you want can fix that. > > > > > > That's your choice ... not everything that is fun is effective in whatever game mode you like; it's always been that way and I don't see why it should be different in this case. You can play for many reasons but don't expect to get all those reasons wrapped up in a single build for any specific class. From my experience in this game, playing fun and optimal builds is a rarity in this game and while optimal is measurable, fun is not. So expecting Anet to make it fun for you is very unrealistic. > > > > . . . I'm confused. Why are you even posting about balancing if you don't care about it? > > You're confused because it has nothing to do with balance. Anet has no chance to appeal to every single players sense of fun AND effective builds for every class and espec for every game mode. That's just unreasonable. I was specifically talking about fun derived from being competitive, which is based on balance. I was not talking about appealing to every single player. Please read what I said again, quote exactly where you thought I said "Anet should appeal to every player's sense of fun", and explain how you interpreted it that way, as I have no clue how you misconstrued my post that way. Yes, I was also talking about a lack of fun related to mundane tasks. However, these are two separate issues, hence the paragraph separation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 I don't see how my reply isn't appropriate; fun is subjective and to expect Anet to ensure 'fun' along with competitive (as you say they are the same) isn't reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xstein.2187 Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > I don't see how my reply isn't appropriate; fun is subjective and to expect Anet to ensure 'fun' along with competitive (as you say they are the same) isn't reasonable. Hi, I’m gonna try to spell it out a little bit more. First, I don’t necessarily believe what you wrote isn’t appropriate. I don’t believe much of it is true. However, I don’t think it is inappropriate. Second, “(As you say they are the same)” No I didn’t. I said “However, some people care about winning and being successful-which is based on balance. That is how they derive much of their fun in this game” And “Yes, I was also talking about a lack of fun related to mundane tasks. However, these are two separate issues, hence the paragraph separation.” I never said fun and being competitive are the same things. Third, my original post was mostly disagreeing when you said, “That's your choice ..." which in its context I interpreted as you have a choice in what you perceive as fun. I explained why both being competitive and interactive gameplay are important fun factors for many. I also explained why you can’t simply control what you consider fun. You then said, “Anet has no chance to appeal to every single players sense of fun AND effective builds for every class and espec for every game mode. That's just unreasonable.” Which although I disagree with, I went on to explain why this statement was not a claim I made. I then asked you some questions, including what piece of my post made you interpret it that way since your post dealt with a different issue than my post? Then you never answered my questions. Then you seemingly claimed I said something I didn’t say with the “(As you say they are the same).” Finally, although it still doesn’t deal with my original post or second, I will respond directly to the statement you just made. Yes, I agree that fun is subjective. However, that does not mean that there are equal perceptions of fun. For example, it is not true that 50% of people like football and 50% of people don’t like football. While it is subjective weather or not you like football, that does not mean half of people like it and half don’t. Same with a lot of issues. You could say that having fun setting yourself of fire is subjective. However, that does not mean a large portion of the population likes setting themselves on fire. Next, lets see what this has to deal with gw2. I 100% agree that not everyone will have fun playing any of the competitive builds. I never said I didn’t. However, look at it this way, if you like competitive content, there is likely a much higher than 50% chance you also like challenging/interactive content, hence a challenging/interactive build. There is a reason people don’t have professional TV watching competitions. Watching TV is not challenging, anyone can do it. IMO the question isn’t really weather or not competitive players enjoy challenging builds. The real question is what is challenging? What is challenging is subjective. Some people think HoT is challenging, some don’t. Some think PoF is challenging, some don’t. The question isn’t weather or not the current chrono meta builds are challenging or boring as you are correct, both positions are subjective. The question is if a significant portion of the population finds them boring or if people find the builds fun? From the poll that recently went up, it appears most don’t, at least for the ‘fun’ part. Finally, I don’t really care weather or not it is reasonable for a large portion of the population to find competitive builds also fun to play. . . . well, I kinda do. Thing is, there is a lot of games out there that are both competitive and fun. At the end of the day, only the games that are fun make it in the market. Those that aren’t go under, weather many people find it reasonable or not. In the future I would rather see changes made for a game that succeeds well in the market and attracts a lot of players in contrast to players and the company simple accepting what players want is ‘unreasonable’ as we see players fade off into other games and gw2 slowly die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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