Is mesmer the most niche class?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Esplen you are a very knowledgable mesmer, but please realise you're entire raid experience (at least from logs you have provided so far) has been with pugs or very very bad fixed groups. I've been consistanlty 1st in dps as cPS in pugs for example (not that I've puged often in the last few weeks, but the 2-3 times I helped out this was the case). That alone shows how low the bar for skill in these groups is. Sorry to say, but any boss try where people are sub 70% alacrity, quickness and sub 20 average might can simply be omited from comparisons. Those are not hard values to reach, even for pugs.

> >

> > Yes, the benchmark will not be reached, neither will the mesmer one. But a good damage dealer will be able to maximise his damage on boss just as a mesmer will. Ease of rotation, while relevant, will only be a benefit until you reach the skill cap where a more difficult rotation is no problem for the player.

> >

> > That said, yes mesmer rotation is also less penalised by suboptimal alacrity, quickness and might uptime. Also issues which a good group does not face. I did mention that our ease of rotation is our main benefit.

> >

> > I'm not going to repeat my arguments against ramp up time being bad. I've explained why this is an issue and also the retargeting to trash mobs a detriment earlier in this thread.

> >

> > Yes I did missread the last part about mirage being close to dps mesmer. Doesn't change my point about it still being miles behind most other classes.

>

> That's the thing, you aren't clear what you're asking for. You want a strong DPS option, which we already had since the Pre-PoF trait update. Yes, it doesn't have the damage ceiling that other classes have, but overall, it outperformed other classes. And I'm not just talking about my logs, I'm talking about [raid logs of average groups](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/6zmvmo/) that weren't posted or listed by just me. Yes, there are some fights where Mesmer isn't that great, and that's to be expected.

>

> But the advantage of the "braindead easymode rotation" on both Condi and Power Mesmer allows the player to deal with more mechanics before damage loss starts to kick in. You talk about less penalization from buffs, but that's entirely untrue. The rotation is so easy that any buff loss is a huge penalty to your DPS, as you're able to reach 80% of your output in the first 3 seconds of a fight, up to 90%, then 100%. The limiting factor in your output will be buff uptimes more than anything else because you can ignore so many mechanics (dodging, distortion for Power Mes, significant amounts of damage constantly being pumped out even when you're rolling, etc).

>

> Sure, you won't be able to reach the actual benchmark itself, but you'll be able to get a lot closer than most other professions, and going toe-to-toe with other DPS options is a good thing.

>

> Yeah, this isn't going to be great in your elite speedrun static group, but does that really matter? If you had a static that wanted to clear things (fast), then they're going to have people who are playing at the top of their game and know how to squeeze every last drop of damage out while dealing with mechanics. If they can't, then bring your Mes and outdamage them.

>

> I haven't only been providing my logs, I've been providing the average logs posted on GW2Raidar, which is a significant portion. The numbers listed on the GW2Raidar data show ~1,000 of each raid boss (clears). If that's not a realistic expectation, then you might want to address the line differentiating theoretical and practical.

 

Have you looked through the raid data (https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/6zmvmo/)? Let's do so for power mesmer shall we:

 

Vale Guardian

- https://imgur.com/a/yzxnM Mesmer is 3d

 

Goreseval

- https://imgur.com/a/QtgMc Power Mesmer is 10th spec wise

 

Sabatha:

- https://imgur.com/a/dd3hy Mesmer is aproximately place 5th if you take condi and power damage builds into account

 

Sloth

- https://imgur.com/a/jZAe0 Mesmer is placed 4th

 

Matthias

- https://imgur.com/a/2rU1x Mesmer is placed 1st

 

KC

- https://imgur.com/a/QOmjj Mesmer is placed 3rd, very far away from 1st and 2nd place

 

Xera

- https://imgur.com/a/yGzad Mesmer is placed 6th

 

Cairn

- https://imgur.com/a/AduuS Mesmer is tied for 4th place (if you do not count condi mesmer, otherwise power is tied for 5th place)

 

Mursaat

- https://imgur.com/a/oSh1S power Mesmer is 7th place behind 6 condi builds. Condi mesmer is even worse

 

Samarog

- https://imgur.com/a/wSML3 Mesmer is 4th

 

Deimos

- https://imgur.com/a/83yX5 power Mesmer is 8th place in builds

 

Now I'm not sure what those logs were to show except that even for pugs, mesmer is in a bad spot and raid leaders have enough alternatives to not take power or condi mesmer along except for 2-3 gimmick fights. Also realise, this is pre PoF builds, which leave power and condi mesmer even worse off.

 

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @Esplen you are a very knowledgable mesmer, but please realise you're entire raid experience (at least from logs you have provided so far) has been with pugs or very very bad fixed groups. I've been consistanlty 1st in dps as cPS in pugs for example (not that I've puged often in the last few weeks, but the 2-3 times I helped out this was the case). That alone shows how low the bar for skill in these groups is. Sorry to say, but any boss try where people are sub 70% alacrity, quickness and sub 20 average might can simply be omited from comparisons. Those are not hard values to reach, even for pugs.

> > >

> > > Yes, the benchmark will not be reached, neither will the mesmer one. But a good damage dealer will be able to maximise his damage on boss just as a mesmer will. Ease of rotation, while relevant, will only be a benefit until you reach the skill cap where a more difficult rotation is no problem for the player.

> > >

> > > That said, yes mesmer rotation is also less penalised by suboptimal alacrity, quickness and might uptime. Also issues which a good group does not face. I did mention that our ease of rotation is our main benefit.

> > >

> > > I'm not going to repeat my arguments against ramp up time being bad. I've explained why this is an issue and also the retargeting to trash mobs a detriment earlier in this thread.

> > >

> > > Yes I did missread the last part about mirage being close to dps mesmer. Doesn't change my point about it still being miles behind most other classes.

> >

> > That's the thing, you aren't clear what you're asking for. You want a strong DPS option, which we already had since the Pre-PoF trait update. Yes, it doesn't have the damage ceiling that other classes have, but overall, it outperformed other classes. And I'm not just talking about my logs, I'm talking about [raid logs of average groups](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/6zmvmo/) that weren't posted or listed by just me. Yes, there are some fights where Mesmer isn't that great, and that's to be expected.

> >

> > But the advantage of the "braindead easymode rotation" on both Condi and Power Mesmer allows the player to deal with more mechanics before damage loss starts to kick in. You talk about less penalization from buffs, but that's entirely untrue. The rotation is so easy that any buff loss is a huge penalty to your DPS, as you're able to reach 80% of your output in the first 3 seconds of a fight, up to 90%, then 100%. The limiting factor in your output will be buff uptimes more than anything else because you can ignore so many mechanics (dodging, distortion for Power Mes, significant amounts of damage constantly being pumped out even when you're rolling, etc).

> >

> > Sure, you won't be able to reach the actual benchmark itself, but you'll be able to get a lot closer than most other professions, and going toe-to-toe with other DPS options is a good thing.

> >

> > Yeah, this isn't going to be great in your elite speedrun static group, but does that really matter? If you had a static that wanted to clear things (fast), then they're going to have people who are playing at the top of their game and know how to squeeze every last drop of damage out while dealing with mechanics. If they can't, then bring your Mes and outdamage them.

> >

> > I haven't only been providing my logs, I've been providing the average logs posted on GW2Raidar, which is a significant portion. The numbers listed on the GW2Raidar data show ~1,000 of each raid boss (clears). If that's not a realistic expectation, then you might want to address the line differentiating theoretical and practical.

>

> Have you looked through the raid data (https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/6zmvmo/)? Let's do so for power mesmer shall we:

>

> Vale Guardian

> - https://imgur.com/a/yzxnM Mesmer is 3d

>

> Goreseval

> - https://imgur.com/a/QtgMc Power Mesmer is 10th spec wise

>

> Sabatha:

> - https://imgur.com/a/dd3hy Mesmer is aproximately place 5th if you take condi and power damage builds into account

>

> Sloth

> - https://imgur.com/a/jZAe0 Mesmer is placed 4th

>

> Matthias

> - https://imgur.com/a/2rU1x Mesmer is placed 1st

>

> KC

> - https://imgur.com/a/QOmjj Mesmer is placed 3rd, very far away from 1st and 2nd place

>

> Xera

> - https://imgur.com/a/yGzad Mesmer is placed 6th

>

> Cairn

> - https://imgur.com/a/AduuS Mesmer is tied for 4th place (if you do not count condi mesmer, otherwise power is tied for 5th place)

>

> Mursaat

> - https://imgur.com/a/oSh1S power Mesmer is 7th place behind 6 condi builds. Condi mesmer is even worse

>

> Samarog

> - https://imgur.com/a/wSML3 Mesmer is 4th

>

> Deimos

> - https://imgur.com/a/83yX5 power Mesmer is 8th place in builds

>

> Now I'm not sure what those logs were to show except that even for pugs, mesmer is in a bad spot and raid leaders have enough alternatives to not take power or condi mesmer along except for 2-3 gimmick fights. Also realise, this is pre PoF builds, which leave power and condi mesmer even worse off.

>

>

 

You're looking at the wrong bars. Redo your placements looking at the mean instead. 90th percentile is wonderful for theoretical things, but when you want to analyze what actually happens in a group, look at the mean.

[Esplen.3940]

Actually, you want to look at the median, not the mean. But yes, don't look at the top 10%.

 

EDIT: Definitions for those of you unaware of how to read the graphs (not judging, just explaining).

 

 

Mean = Average.

All numbers added together then divided by how many numbers are added together. This gives you the "average" number achieved.

 

Median = Midpoint.

Take all the numbers and find the middle-most number. This gives you the 50% "benchmark", also known as the midpoint (not theoretical average).

 

75th Percentage = Top 75% Benchmark.

75% of people fall below this number, while 25% are above.

 

90th Percentage = Top 90% Benchmark.

90% of people fall below this number, while 10% are above.

 

 

 

Example:

How to find these numbers in a dataset. (2,3,5,9,12,15,21) Sorted for convenience.

Mean:

Average is found by adding all and dividing by how many you added.

(2 + 3 + 5 + 9 + 12 + 15 + 21) / 7 = **9.57 is the mean**

 

Median:

Find the middlemost number (or pair and average them).

7/2 = 3.5, **9 is the median**

 

Now this is where things get tricky. You'd think that percentiles would be relating to Means/Averages, but they're actually relating to Medians.

75th Percentage:

7/4 (gives us distance to the quarter number in any direction) = 1.75 is the position.

**15 is the 75%**

 

90th Percentage:

7/10 = 0.7 is the position.

**21 is the 90%**

 

Normally for the 75th and 90th percentage you'd have more than 7 numbers, though.

 

 

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Actually, you want to look at the median, not the mean. But yes, don't look at the top 10%.

>

> EDIT: Definitions for those of you unaware of how to read the graphs (not judging, just explaining).

>

 

> Mean = Average.

> All numbers added together then divided by how many numbers are added together. This gives you the "average" number achieved.

>

> Median = Midpoint.

> Take all the numbers and find the middle-most number. This gives you the 50% "benchmark", also known as the midpoint (not theoretical average).

>

> 75th Percentage = Top 75% Benchmark.

> 75% of people fall below this number, while 25% are above.

>

> 90th Percentage = Top 90% Benchmark.

> 90% of people fall below this number, while 10% are above.

>

>

 

> Example:

> How to find these numbers in a dataset. (2,3,5,9,12,15,21) Sorted for convenience.

> Mean:

> Average is found by adding all and dividing by how many you added.

> (2 + 3 + 5 + 9 + 12 + 15 + 21) / 7 = **9.57 is the mean**

>

> Median:

> Find the middlemost number (or pair and average them).

> 7/2 = 3.5, **9 is the median**

>

> Now this is where things get tricky. You'd think that percentiles would be relating to Means/Averages, but they're actually relating to Medians.

> 75th Percentage:

> 7/4 (gives us distance to the quarter number in any direction) = 1.75 is the position.

> **15 is the 75%**

>

> 90th Percentage:

> 7/10 = 0.7 is the position.

> **21 is the 90%**

>

> Normally for the 75th and 90th percentage you'd have more than 7 numbers, though.

>

 

 

 

Sorry, median would be better here, yeah. Honestly the mode might be most realistic...

[Esplen.3940]

Ideally, but the mode won't be reliable as the data is varied heavily (unless you round to the nearest thousand). Also, dead DPS may have to get discarded, as it's possible for the mode to be low based on bad players mixed with dead players.

 

It wouldn't matter, though because GW2Raidar doesn't give global access to their data points.

 

[Pyroatheist.9031]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> Ideally, but the mode won't be reliable as the data is varied heavily (unless you round to the nearest thousand). Also, dead DPS may have to get discarded, as it's possible for the mode to be low based on bad players mixed with dead players.

>

> It wouldn't matter, though because GW2Raidar doesn't give global access to their data points.

>

 

Yeah, you'd have to futz with rounding to get good data out of it along with tossing out outliers like dead DPS. An academic point though, as you note.

[Cyninja.2954]

Fine, let's redo the rankings using the median:

 

VG - 2nd

Gore - 10th

Saba -4th (this one is heavily scewed since mesmer will never jump here so they get a free higher placement)

 

Sloth - 5th

Matth - power 2nd, condi 1st

 

KC - 3rd

Xera - 6th

 

Cairn - 3rd

Mursaat - 4th

Samarog - 4th

Deimos - 5th

 

So the rankings improve slightly. Now we take into account that:

 

- mesmer is one of THE most selfish dps in the game and provides not even cleave

- PoF builds are not part of these graphs

- the difference between 90th percentile and median shows clearly that for mesmer there is not a lot of room for improvement upwards with its builds, other classes can push out substantially more dps as players get better

 

Still not seeing it. Sure if raid leaders want to bother to give a dps spot away to a weak player **and** are willing to cover other important areas like cleave or special roles to one of the other 3 dps **and** they already have 2 chronos they might take along a power mesmer (that's some big "and" variables). Then again, the LFG is packed with dps who are willing to come along, why not take a top tier a top tier dps and not worry about dps group composition specifically?

 

Another issue which I just realised, mesmer places worst on bosses who can be considered "hard" like Sloth, Xera and Deimos (luckily not KC and Matthias) so players will be more reluctant to take a power mesmer for those bosses.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> So the rankings improve slightly. Now we take into account that:

>

> - mesmer is one of THE most selfish dps in the game and provides not even cleave

> - PoF builds are not part of these graphs

> - the difference between 90th percentile and median shows clearly that for mesmer there is not a lot of room for improvement upwards with its builds, other classes can push out substantially more dps as players get better

 

So the conclusion you came to is my conclusion, but in a negative light and shining it on irrelevant details. Nice.

 

Insert long winded explanation of why and how Mesmer provides Cleave.

 

Cleave doesn't exist on Condi Mesmer in anything except Scepter3, Torch4, and Sigil of Geomancy. Cleave does exist on Power Mesmer as, as I've stated multiple times before, ~60% of your DPS is cleave. You can keep saying that Mesmer doesn't have any cleave, but that's a false statement no matter how many times you try to beat it in.

 

Mesmer Sword cleaves just as much as everyone else. The problem lies in Swordsman (and Duelist) who don't. However, since the Swordsman only accounts for ~45% of your total damage, you're still pumping out enough Cleave for most fights that require it.

 

Duelist is a different problem, as Scepter doesn't offer any cleave. Axe removes this dilemma, as it has condi cleave, but, as I've also stated multiple times before, creates the issue of melee. Sure, it has a higher benchmark than Power Mesmer, but realistically you're looking at equal or lower damage output. The Duelist issue is still present on Axe, and even moreso than on Sword as Duelist dps equates to roughly 70% of a Condi Mesmer's damage, and is single target.

 

My numbers may be slightly incorrect as of PoF, and I'm using data pulled from my logs. All this means is there may be a variance with your %'s, but I've found that Swordsman tend to deal ~40% of your total DPS (peaking at 55% if you have to pull away for mechanics, ie Matthias or Cairn). Duelist DPS is significant as they hit for ~13% power and ~50% Bleeding, although some of the Bleeds come from Sigil (and with Mirage, Dune Cloak).

 

 

Insert long winded explanation of why and how Mesmer is not selfish and why it wouldn't matter.

 

Also, when your role is DPS, it doesn't matter how selfish or selfless you are. Your role is to push out damage, and that's what you're there to do. You're not there to share boons. You're not there to provide buffs. You're not there to drop fields. You're not there to provide support. You're there to deal damage.

 

Ironically, Mesmer (Power and Condi) both have the utility slot(s) available to provide huge team support in the form of: 1-3 utility slots (1 on Condi, 3 on Power), and Moa. Moa is a 1000 breakbar damage ability, which is huge. 1-3 utility slots can mean nothing, but it can also mean Feedback or Distortion (notably on Power).

 

That's more utility than most DPS professions provide right there. A well timed Distortion can remove the need for a Tempest to run Eye of the Storm, to cover a Chrono mistake on VG/Gors, or to completely negate Slothasar's shake attack. Feedback means your Chronos can run Well of Recall for extra Alacrity on a fight where things get chaotic and boon/buff uptime is not usually great.

 

Breakbar damage is self-explanatory, and you can push out even more with Power Lock and Signet of Domination, plus Sword4/Pistol5. That's more Breakbar damage than any other profession provides to a boss with the exception of a Chrono who can push out obscene amounts with multi-hit Tides of Time + Moa + CS.

 

 

Insert long winded explanation of why and how the median means significantly more than the 90th percentile and benchmark.

 

Most people aren't going to be playing at 100% performance. Most groups aren't going to be playing at 100% performance. For you to reach that 90th percentile, you, and all of your supports, need to be playing at 100%. The reason why those numbers don't align with the benchmarks are for two reasons.

1. That's the 90% mark, not the highest listed value.

2. Any and every mechanic lowers DPS, for the most part.

The fact that Mesmer is able to have such a low variance is a really, really good thing. It means that mechanics don't lower DPS and you can expect a solid DPS value from a Mesmer.

 

Yes, the goal is to be the top player, but realistically people aren't going to be or do that. The guilds and groups who will do that will run what they run regardless of what we do or say or theorycraft, so it's better to focus on the actual players who would be running this. And those players will get a lot more out of Power Mesmer than Condi Tempest or Firebrand, because even though they have higher damage ceilings, they also have higher skill floors.

 

Now, I'm not saying that Power Mesmer is the end-all be-all of DPS roles in raids. I'm not saying that it should be taken for every encounter. What I am saying is that it's in a very good spot right now and is a competent option for many bosses. In the DPS scene, that's a really good thing. Sure, you can't do certain mechanics very well, such as Sabetha cannons, or Escort Wargs (you can do these decently, but it requires significant investment), or Gorseval Spirits, but every DPS has it's vices. As an Elementalist, if you screw up your rotation, it may put you behind by a good amount of time and sometimes it's not possible to play catch-up when your skill cooldowns get out of sync. As a Ranger, if you press the wrong button after weapon swapping, you just dropped your DPS heavily and your rotation is screwed until the next weaponswap. As a Scourge, if the boss moves out of your Shades, you lose out on some damage and Barrier/Cleanse Support.

 

 

"Top-tier DPS" doesn't exist. There are above average players, and there is everyone else. You can't just "LFG" one of these players, and even if you do, a lot of rotations and damage outputs are reliant on others as well (e.g. Tempest rotation gets screwed over quite heavily by lack of Alacrity). Sure, you can be a "full meta alchemist" group and run the highest benchmark everything, but that doesn't mean you'll clear any faster than the wonky group that runs off-meta stuff.

 

Benchmarks don't actually mean a lot when you enter a raid because you, and most players, raid for an entirely different reason than the people who make the benchmarks raid. Heck, even the people who post the benchmarks heavily change the builds while raiding because they know what they're going for. It's nice to have a theoretical world where you play Fantasy GW2 Raid with your 4 Tempest, 2 CPS, 2 Chrono, 2 Druid setup, but that doesn't guarantee a fast or easy clear when you play GW2.

 

By so stubbornly focusing on the negatives, you're simply seeing everything with red. What you've listed has been irrelevant or negligible, but simply ingrained into the GW2 playerbase. Just like how Ele is supposed to be the hardest rotation (yet CRanger has a rotation that requires more APM and is just as easy to screw up).

 

P.S.:

 

Sloth DPS is low because the highest DPS on Sloth is almost always the cPS since they are the "DPS" roles that don't deal with the mechanics. Ironically, they're also a support, but show up on Raid logs as Condi Warrior. As a Mesmer, you'll ideally not eat any shrooms but because of the shroom cooldown, you usually eat the first shroom (to negate DPS loss). This also means your DPS listed on Arc is going to be lower because you contributed 0 damage for the first shroom portion of the fight. The same occurs for most other DPS professions, bar Condi Warrior (I wonder why).

Xera DPS is highly RNG related, just like Matthias. Also Mesmer is 4th (not 6th) and the difference between Mesmer and top (Condi Thief, an extremely selfish, low cleave build) is less than 5%.

 

There is a lot of DPS variance on Matthias and Xera due to mechanics. For Xera, there are two phase outs which significantly hurt Power Mesmer DPS, whereas everything else is negligible in the fight. For Matthias, it's possible to get completely focused by mechanics and have little DPS, but your Phantasms keep up valuable damage, both Condi and Power. The exception is if you get focused by Corruptions, Poisons, and Sacrifices consistently in a run, but statistically that's not going to happen and even if it did, you'd have more DPS than another profession who got the same treatment (because of Phantasms, even accounting for Sacrifice).

 

I wouldn't bring Power (or Condi) Mesmer (or Mirage) to Deimos due to the constant porting (and subsequent Phantasm destruction). Unless, of course, the Clone Mirage build takes off, but then you're bringing a melee user to Deimos which is not a good idea for most groups (even statics).

 

[apharma.3741]

Exactly, if you had one turn up for dps and everyone else checks out then it’s no problem but if you got 2-3 wanting to dps on mesmer (assuming it’s not Matthias or Cairn) then it starts becoming an issue with mechanics. Mesmers also have a lot lower ceiling than many other classes, sure it’s easier to do all a dps mesmer can do but if you can already play guard or ele at that high level you leave much less margin for error and the cleave is insane on those guys.

 

I also know you laugh at escort Pyro, I don’t mean it gets difficult as such but with mesmers as your dps it will take longer and let’s face it, no one likes escort.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > So the rankings improve slightly. Now we take into account that:

> >

> > - mesmer is one of THE most selfish dps in the game and provides not even cleave

> > - PoF builds are not part of these graphs

> > - the difference between 90th percentile and median shows clearly that for mesmer there is not a lot of room for improvement upwards with its builds, other classes can push out substantially more dps as players get better

>

> So the conclusion you came to is my conclusion, but in a negative light and shining it on irrelevant details. Nice.

>

> Insert long winded explanation of why and how Mesmer provides Cleave.

>

Cleave doesn't exist on Condi Mesmer in anything except Scepter3, Torch4, and Sigil of Geomancy. Cleave does exist on Power Mesmer as, as I've stated multiple times before, ~60% of your DPS is cleave. You can keep saying that Mesmer doesn't have any cleave, but that's a false statement no matter how many times you try to beat it in.

>

> Mesmer Sword cleaves just as much as everyone else. The problem lies in Swordsman (and Duelist) who don't. However, since the Swordsman only accounts for ~45% of your total damage, you're still pumping out enough Cleave for most fights that require it.

>

> Duelist is a different problem, as Scepter doesn't offer any cleave. Axe removes this dilemma, as it has condi cleave, but, as I've also stated multiple times before, creates the issue of melee. Sure, it has a higher benchmark than Power Mesmer, but realistically you're looking at equal or lower damage output. The Duelist issue is still present on Axe, and even moreso than on Sword as Duelist dps equates to roughly 70% of a Condi Mesmer's damage, and is single target.

>

> My numbers may be slightly incorrect as of PoF, and I'm using data pulled from my logs. All this means is there may be a variance with your %'s, but I've found that Swordsman tend to deal ~40% of your total DPS (peaking at 55% if you have to pull away for mechanics, ie Matthias or Cairn). Duelist DPS is significant as they hit for ~13% power and ~50% Bleeding, although some of the Bleeds come from Sigil (and with Mirage, Dune Cloak).

 

>

> Insert long winded explanation of why and how Mesmer is not selfish and why it wouldn't matter.

>

Also, when your role is DPS, it doesn't matter how selfish or selfless you are. Your role is to push out damage, and that's what you're there to do. You're not there to share boons. You're not there to provide buffs. You're not there to drop fields. You're not there to provide support. You're there to deal damage.

>

> Ironically, Mesmer (Power and Condi) both have the utility slot(s) available to provide huge team support in the form of: 1-3 utility slots (1 on Condi, 3 on Power), and Moa. Moa is a 1000 breakbar damage ability, which is huge. 1-3 utility slots can mean nothing, but it can also mean Feedback or Distortion (notably on Power).

>

> That's more utility than most DPS professions provide right there. A well timed Distortion can remove the need for a Tempest to run Eye of the Storm, to cover a Chrono mistake on VG/Gors, or to completely negate Slothasar's shake attack. Feedback means your Chronos can run Well of Recall for extra Alacrity on a fight where things get chaotic and boon/buff uptime is not usually great.

>

> Breakbar damage is self-explanatory, and you can push out even more with Power Lock and Signet of Domination, plus Sword4/Pistol5. That's more Breakbar damage than any other profession provides to a boss with the exception of a Chrono who can push out obscene amounts with multi-hit Tides of Time + Moa + CS.

 

>

> Insert long winded explanation of why and how the median means significantly more than the 90th percentile and benchmark.

>

Most people aren't going to be playing at 100% performance. Most groups aren't going to be playing at 100% performance. For you to reach that 90th percentile, you, and all of your supports, need to be playing at 100%. The reason why those numbers don't align with the benchmarks are for two reasons.

> 1. That's the 90% mark, not the highest listed value.

> 2. Any and every mechanic lowers DPS, for the most part.

> The fact that Mesmer is able to have such a low variance is a really, really good thing. It means that mechanics don't lower DPS and you can expect a solid DPS value from a Mesmer.

>

> Yes, the goal is to be the top player, but realistically people aren't going to be or do that. The guilds and groups who will do that will run what they run regardless of what we do or say or theorycraft, so it's better to focus on the actual players who would be running this. And those players will get a lot more out of Power Mesmer than Condi Tempest or Firebrand, because even though they have higher damage ceilings, they also have higher skill floors.

>

> Now, I'm not saying that Power Mesmer is the end-all be-all of DPS roles in raids. I'm not saying that it should be taken for every encounter. What I am saying is that it's in a very good spot right now and is a competent option for many bosses. In the DPS scene, that's a really good thing. Sure, you can't do certain mechanics very well, such as Sabetha cannons, or Escort Wargs (you can do these decently, but it requires significant investment), or Gorseval Spirits, but every DPS has it's vices. As an Elementalist, if you screw up your rotation, it may put you behind by a good amount of time and sometimes it's not possible to play catch-up when your skill cooldowns get out of sync. As a Ranger, if you press the wrong button after weapon swapping, you just dropped your DPS heavily and your rotation is screwed until the next weaponswap. As a Scourge, if the boss moves out of your Shades, you lose out on some damage and Barrier/Cleanse Support.

 

>

> "Top-tier DPS" doesn't exist. There are above average players, and there is everyone else. You can't just "LFG" one of these players, and even if you do, a lot of rotations and damage outputs are reliant on others as well (e.g. Tempest rotation gets screwed over quite heavily by lack of Alacrity). Sure, you can be a "full meta alchemist" group and run the highest benchmark everything, but that doesn't mean you'll clear any faster than the wonky group that runs off-meta stuff.

>

> Benchmarks don't actually mean a lot when you enter a raid because you, and most players, raid for an entirely different reason than the people who make the benchmarks raid. Heck, even the people who post the benchmarks heavily change the builds while raiding because they know what they're going for. It's nice to have a theoretical world where you play Fantasy GW2 Raid with your 4 Tempest, 2 CPS, 2 Chrono, 2 Druid setup, but that doesn't guarantee a fast or easy clear when you play GW2.

>

> By so stubbornly focusing on the negatives, you're simply seeing everything with red. What you've listed has been irrelevant or negligible, but simply ingrained into the GW2 playerbase. Just like how Ele is supposed to be the hardest rotation (yet CRanger has a rotation that requires more APM and is just as easy to screw up).

>

> P.S.:

>

Sloth DPS is low because the highest DPS on Sloth is almost always the cPS since they are the "DPS" roles that don't deal with the mechanics. Ironically, they're also a support, but show up on Raid logs as Condi Warrior. As a Mesmer, you'll ideally not eat any shrooms but because of the shroom cooldown, you usually eat the first shroom (to negate DPS loss). This also means your DPS listed on Arc is going to be lower because you contributed 0 damage for the first shroom portion of the fight. The same occurs for most other DPS professions, bar Condi Warrior (I wonder why).

> Xera DPS is highly RNG related, just like Matthias. Also Mesmer is 4th (not 6th) and the difference between Mesmer and top (Condi Thief, an extremely selfish, low cleave build) is less than 5%.

>

> There is a lot of DPS variance on Matthias and Xera due to mechanics. For Xera, there are two phase outs which significantly hurt Power Mesmer DPS, whereas everything else is negligible in the fight. For Matthias, it's possible to get completely focused by mechanics and have little DPS, but your Phantasms keep up valuable damage, both Condi and Power. The exception is if you get focused by Corruptions, Poisons, and Sacrifices consistently in a run, but statistically that's not going to happen and even if it did, you'd have more DPS than another profession who got the same treatment (because of Phantasms, even accounting for Sacrifice).

>

> I wouldn't bring Power (or Condi) Mesmer (or Mirage) to Deimos due to the constant porting (and subsequent Phantasm destruction). Unless, of course, the Clone Mirage build takes off, but then you're bringing a melee user to Deimos which is not a good idea for most groups (even statics).

 

 

What? How am I looking at things in a negative light only because I don't have happiness and sunshine coming out of my ....?

 

Nothing I said is subjectively valued, the only things I mentioned are facts. I did not chose to subjectively decide mesmer cleave was terrible or that our class is subpar in dps. Those are objective values which can easily be researched. You brought up the raid logs, I simply showed that those raid logs show nothing else than what I have been saying.

 

Nothing in game is hard raid wise. You can run raids with 5 people if you want. That's not an argument though. Raid leaders and players in general will always focus on the top tier options for group composition. Mesmer is not part of that echolon. That's not being subjective, that's being realistic. You can compensate for a lot of these things: run a fixed group, play with friends, be more tolerant about the dps you take along, etc etc etc. Those still remain barriers though for some classes.

 

Also your longwinded explenation on dps and utility is very subjective. Yes, as dps your job is to dps first and foremost. If you have subpar dps and other classes have dps AND utility on top, guess who gets taken along. Condi mesmer loses significant damage when sloting utility, power mesmer does bring some more, other classes have utility built into their kit which is always available or lose less damage when sloting utility.

 

Half your explenations like the one for Sloth or mesmer cleave show exactly why mesmer is not to be taken along. Having to account for certain dps roles NOT being able to deal with certain mechanics creates additional "work" for the raid lead and the rest of the team. Why should people bother with this?

 

I get it, you are king among the pugs in your power mesmer build. I'm happy for you. Wait 4-6 weeks until PoF meta has settled and enjoy comming back here begging for a dps spot for mesmer once no one takes you along. Worse yet, if chrono nerfs do come through, enjoy not having any spot whatsoever in raids on mesmer.

 

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> "Top-tier DPS" doesn't exist. There are above average players, and there is everyone else. You can't just "LFG" one of these players, and even if you do, a lot of rotations and damage outputs are reliant on others as well (e.g. Tempest rotation gets screwed over quite heavily by lack of Alacrity). Sure, you can be a "full meta alchemist" group and run the highest benchmark everything, but that doesn't mean you'll clear any faster than the wonky group that runs off-meta stuff.

 

I just had to single this out because this is the stupidest thing I've read in a while. Top-tier dps does exist. PUG raid leaders (not all but many) will go for classes which they believe will bring best performance, they now have different venues of how to decide on who they take along:

 

- raid guild recommencations (mesmer is not recommended on most fights)

- Living Insights provided (players with more LI tend to bring a better performance than those with less experience)

- past experience with dps classes

- use arcdps once their raid is full to make sure dps they have is sufficient

 

If you aren't part of the group which gets initially invited because no one is looking for power mesmer, you'll never get to show your leet damage. Worse yet, if the other dps in your raid are good, you'll be mediocre at best.

[Esplen.3940]

I need to go to sleep but I'll just say this for now: asking to be first shroom isn't a dealbreaker for a DPS role.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> I need to go to sleep but I'll just say this for now: asking to be first shroom isn't a dealbreaker for a DPS role.

 

It's not, but then again, why should a raid lead bother if another dps doesn't even bring this limitation? (on top of all the other issues)

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > @Esplen you are a very knowledgable mesmer, but please realise you're entire raid experience (at least from logs you have provided so far) has been with pugs or very very bad fixed groups. I've been consistanlty 1st in dps as cPS in pugs for example (not that I've puged often in the last few weeks, but the 2-3 times I helped out this was the case). That alone shows how low the bar for skill in these groups is. Sorry to say, but any boss try where people are sub 70% alacrity, quickness and sub 20 average might can simply be omited from comparisons. Those are not hard values to reach, even for pugs.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, the benchmark will not be reached, neither will the mesmer one. But a good damage dealer will be able to maximise his damage on boss just as a mesmer will. Ease of rotation, while relevant, will only be a benefit until you reach the skill cap where a more difficult rotation is no problem for the player.

> > > >

> > > > That said, yes mesmer rotation is also less penalised by suboptimal alacrity, quickness and might uptime. Also issues which a good group does not face. I did mention that our ease of rotation is our main benefit.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not going to repeat my arguments against ramp up time being bad. I've explained why this is an issue and also the retargeting to trash mobs a detriment earlier in this thread.

> > > >

> > > > Yes I did missread the last part about mirage being close to dps mesmer. Doesn't change my point about it still being miles behind most other classes.

> > >

> > > That's the thing, you aren't clear what you're asking for. You want a strong DPS option, which we already had since the Pre-PoF trait update. Yes, it doesn't have the damage ceiling that other classes have, but overall, it outperformed other classes. And I'm not just talking about my logs, I'm talking about [raid logs of average groups](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/6zmvmo/) that weren't posted or listed by just me. Yes, there are some fights where Mesmer isn't that great, and that's to be expected.

> > >

> > > But the advantage of the "braindead easymode rotation" on both Condi and Power Mesmer allows the player to deal with more mechanics before damage loss starts to kick in. You talk about less penalization from buffs, but that's entirely untrue. The rotation is so easy that any buff loss is a huge penalty to your DPS, as you're able to reach 80% of your output in the first 3 seconds of a fight, up to 90%, then 100%. The limiting factor in your output will be buff uptimes more than anything else because you can ignore so many mechanics (dodging, distortion for Power Mes, significant amounts of damage constantly being pumped out even when you're rolling, etc).

> > >

> > > Sure, you won't be able to reach the actual benchmark itself, but you'll be able to get a lot closer than most other professions, and going toe-to-toe with other DPS options is a good thing.

> > >

> > > Yeah, this isn't going to be great in your elite speedrun static group, but does that really matter? If you had a static that wanted to clear things (fast), then they're going to have people who are playing at the top of their game and know how to squeeze every last drop of damage out while dealing with mechanics. If they can't, then bring your Mes and outdamage them.

> > >

> > > I haven't only been providing my logs, I've been providing the average logs posted on GW2Raidar, which is a significant portion. The numbers listed on the GW2Raidar data show ~1,000 of each raid boss (clears). If that's not a realistic expectation, then you might want to address the line differentiating theoretical and practical.

> >

> > Have you looked through the raid data (https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/6zmvmo/)? Let's do so for power mesmer shall we:

> >

> > Vale Guardian

> > - https://imgur.com/a/yzxnM Mesmer is 3d

> >

> > Goreseval

> > - https://imgur.com/a/QtgMc Power Mesmer is 10th spec wise

> >

> > Sabatha:

> > - https://imgur.com/a/dd3hy Mesmer is aproximately place 5th if you take condi and power damage builds into account

> >

> > Sloth

> > - https://imgur.com/a/jZAe0 Mesmer is placed 4th

> >

> > Matthias

> > - https://imgur.com/a/2rU1x Mesmer is placed 1st

> >

> > KC

> > - https://imgur.com/a/QOmjj Mesmer is placed 3rd, very far away from 1st and 2nd place

> >

> > Xera

> > - https://imgur.com/a/yGzad Mesmer is placed 6th

> >

> > Cairn

> > - https://imgur.com/a/AduuS Mesmer is tied for 4th place (if you do not count condi mesmer, otherwise power is tied for 5th place)

> >

> > Mursaat

> > - https://imgur.com/a/oSh1S power Mesmer is 7th place behind 6 condi builds. Condi mesmer is even worse

> >

> > Samarog

> > - https://imgur.com/a/wSML3 Mesmer is 4th

> >

> > Deimos

> > - https://imgur.com/a/83yX5 power Mesmer is 8th place in builds

> >

> > Now I'm not sure what those logs were to show except that even for pugs, mesmer is in a bad spot and raid leaders have enough alternatives to not take power or condi mesmer along except for 2-3 gimmick fights. Also realise, this is pre PoF builds, which leave power and condi mesmer even worse off.

> >

> >

>

> You're looking at the wrong bars. Redo your placements looking at the mean instead. 90th percentile is wonderful for theoretical things, but when you want to analyze what actually happens in a group, look at the mean.

 

Looking at these actually helped me a lot, so thanks for pointing them out (and pointing out that looking at the mean is more meaningful). (Ha, get it? Mean? _Mean_ingful? I'm so sorry.) Things aren't nearly as dire as I'd assumed. Admittedly, I made the mistake of only looking at benchmarks, which are useful but really don't tell the whole story. It's the same reason people see staff Weaver as insultingly overtuned rather than simply strong.

 

Looking at my own favored type of DPS (Power builds), Mesmer actually does pretty okay in the mean. I think there's absolutely room for a buff there (I'd say probably on weapon skills instead of phantasms, just so it's more reliable), but all is not lost. I think my main wishes, after looking at the data, would be:

 

* A slight buff to our weapon skill damage. Not huge, but it would be nice to help close the gap a bit, especially on the fights where it's hard to keep phantasms rolling. This seems like a pretty realistic thing to ask for.

* The possibility of a more active DPS build. Obviously this is a much bigger ask--I'm essentially asking for a way to build a sustained DPS shatter build--but more options would make me really happy. Like people in this thread have pointed out (maybe you? Sorry, I should probably go back and look...), part of the reason Mesmer does better if you look at the mean than it does at the 90th percentile is that its DPS rotations are extremely simple. That's a strength, but I'd love the option to pursue something more active and challenging for a higher reward. Right now, I can get a more active playstyle by going Chronomancer, and that's cool, but hey, more viable options is always going to make me happy.

[apharma.3741]

The issue with mesmer isn’t the dps, it’s nothing special but that level will get the job done. The issue is it has barely any cleave and that a lot of it is tied to a singular target which prevents you doing a lot of things.

 

Oh and the ramp up, that’s an issue too but generally if mesmer was pulling about 30k dps with cleave, not being reliant on phantasms and didn’t have this 20-30s ramp up time, it would be in a decent state especially with how chrono is nearly mandatory. It would be an OK class doing passable damage where other classes are better but it remains an option that can carry out mechanics as needed without letting the team down if played correctly. It would also not have drawbacks to having another 3 in the dps role like it currently is for all but Cairn and Matthias.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @apharma.3741 said:

> The issue with mesmer isn’t the dps, it’s nothing special but that level will get the job done. The issue is it has barely any cleave and that a lot of it is tied to a singular target which prevents you doing a lot of things.

>

> Oh and the ramp up, that’s an issue too but generally if mesmer was pulling about 30k dps with cleave, not being reliant on phantasms and didn’t have this 20-30s ramp up time, it would be in a decent state especially with how chrono is nearly mandatory. It would be an OK class doing passable damage where other classes are better but it remains an option that can carry out mechanics as needed without letting the team down if played correctly. It would also not have drawbacks to having another 3 in the dps role like it currently is for all but Cairn and Matthias.

 

Yeah, and I think that's what a buff to Mesmer weapon skills could help with. That's where we get what cleave we have (well, that and shatters, but shattering for damage in group PvE isn't a very good idea).

 

I also had some ideas over in the "redesigning phantasms" thread that I think would help with cleave--namely, adding special "opening attacks" to phantasms that they use the first time they're summoned before settling into their current pattern. In that idea, sword phantasms use Blurred Frenzy when they're summoned, and pistol phantasm shots pierce for their first attack, both of which might help a bit with cleave.

[Esplen.3940]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> What? How am I looking at things in a negative light only because I don't have happiness and sunshine coming out of my ....?

 

Quite simple: Everything is bad, even if it's irrelevant or negligible.

 

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > I need to go to sleep but I'll just say this for now: asking to be first shroom isn't a dealbreaker for a DPS role.

>

> It's not, but then again, why should a raid lead bother if another dps doesn't even bring this limitation? (on top of all the other issues)

 

As a DPS, asking to be first shroom is not a bad thing. People have preference as to which shroom they want to be due to comfort levels and experience. That is nothing new and does not affect the raid composition in any meaningful way.

 

If you want a more in-depth as to why you're looking at things in a negative light, look at your posts:

 

 

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > On sabetha you don't really need cleave past enough to kill the adds now and then, so mesmer works fine there. As long as you don't shatter the phantasms, they'll retarget appropriately to kill the bosses. KC is a similar story, but you're right that you wouldn't want 4 mesmer dps as that would make killing the statues rather annoying. Trio is trio, nothing really matters there as long as everyone does something. Escort....heh. MO sorta, but condie mirage retargeting would work really smoothly there for killing all the pawns.

>

> Maybe actually play dps mesmer in raid (not support, dps mesmer). Half of the arguments you bring are theorycraft bs and don't actually work out the way as you'd expect.

>

> That's not even considering that even WHEN those issues were to be resolved, mesmer dps is far behind other classes.

 

Ironically, half of the arguments you bring are bs (not even theorycraft) and "don't actually work out the way as you'd expect."

 

And again, Mesmer DPS is not far behind other classes.

 

> There is 4 dps spots. Exchanging a 38k dps for a 35k dps will hardly matter and can easily be covered by playerskill. Not to mention that dps usually have the easiest of all the jobs, meaning it's quite simple to cover.

 

So DPS is an easy job and simple to cover, but it's not acceptable to switch to an easy DPS that's simple to use. Also nice noting benchmarks here, it really proves you aren't looking at "theorycraft bs". Oh wait.

 

> > @Carighan.6758 said:

> > Plenty others are not. Unless a raid of 10 ideally wants to have one of each class and then someone random, there's little arguing that balance has worse issues than whether we need a DPS spec or not. Especially because our DPS setup is still easily good enough to kill the bosses with it, even if others do it much better.

> That's just it though, other do it much much better and the biggest issue is not pure dps, but:

>

> - ramp up time

> - no aoe cleave

> - minimal utility (or no utility if other classes cover alacrity/quickness)

>

> We bring NOTHING except bad dps.

>

> The only thing we have going for us is that power mesmer has one of the safest and easiest rotations ingame which makes it desirable in pugs where the skill level is often very low.

 

So as I've already proven (and countered) in another post: We have a pretty fast ramp up time, all things considered, we have AoE cleave, and we have a significant amount of utility. We also pull really good numbers on many fights in a non-theorycraft bs scenario.

 

> Nothing I said is subjectively valued, the only things I mentioned are facts. I did not chose to subjectively decide mesmer cleave was terrible or that our class is subpar in dps. Those are objective values which can easily be researched. You brought up the raid logs, I simply showed that those raid logs show nothing else than what I have been saying.

 

You mean like not including any data to support your ideas, proving people wrong by saying "you're wrong because it doesn't work like that", and then using hyperbole and false points to prove that Mesmer doesn't bring anything? Oh yeah, that's definitely objective, not subjective.

 

> Nothing in game is hard raid wise. You can run raids with 5 people if you want. That's not an argument though. Raid leaders and players in general will always focus on the top tier options for group composition. Mesmer is not part of that echolon. That's not being subjective, that's being realistic. You can compensate for a lot of these things: run a fixed group, play with friends, be more tolerant about the dps you take along, etc etc etc. Those still remain barriers though for some classes.

 

So nothing is hard, but you can't bring something even though you have "5 free spots". Earlier, you talk about 4 dps spots, so are we only running 1 support? Man, I want to know how to pull that off.

 

> Also your longwinded explenation on dps and utility is very subjective. Yes, as dps your job is to dps first and foremost. If you have subpar dps and other classes have dps AND utility on top, guess who gets taken along. Condi mesmer loses significant damage when sloting utility, power mesmer does bring some more, other classes have utility built into their kit which is always available or lose less damage when sloting utility.

 

Bringing DPS and utility, like... huge breakbar damage, reflects, distortions, and pulls/pushes? Oh man, I wonder where I can get that.

 

> Half your explenations like the one for Sloth or mesmer cleave show exactly why mesmer is not to be taken along. Having to account for certain dps roles NOT being able to deal with certain mechanics creates additional "work" for the raid lead and the rest of the team. Why should people bother with this?

 

Everything has to account for something. You don't send a Necromancer to deal with cannons on Trio. Does that mean a Necromancer is bad for Trio? No. Does that mean a Necromancer has to fight to be brought along for Trio? No. Why should people bother with this? They're **mechanics** that's what you're meant to do. You're meant to deal with them, and people have gotten accustomed to interchangeable places in the roles, but at the end of the day, especially when it comes to static mechanics like Sloth and Sab, you end up having one person doing each portion, so it doesn't matter if you ask to be a specific one. There are plenty of groups that fail because people don't know how to do their portion.

 

> I get it, you are king among the pugs in your power mesmer build. I'm happy for you. Wait 4-6 weeks until PoF meta has settled and enjoy comming back here begging for a dps spot for mesmer once no one takes you along. Worse yet, if chrono nerfs do come through, enjoy not having any spot whatsoever in raids on mesmer.

 

Nice objectiveness.

 

> > @Esplen.3940 said:

> > "Top-tier DPS" doesn't exist. There are above average players, and there is everyone else. You can't just "LFG" one of these players, and even if you do, a lot of rotations and damage outputs are reliant on others as well (e.g. Tempest rotation gets screwed over quite heavily by lack of Alacrity). Sure, you can be a "full meta alchemist" group and run the highest benchmark everything, but that doesn't mean you'll clear any faster than the wonky group that runs off-meta stuff.

>

> I just had to single this out because this is the stupidest thing I've read in a while. Top-tier dps does exist. PUG raid leaders (not all but many) will go for classes which they believe will bring best performance, they now have different venues of how to decide on who they take along:

 

Nice. PUG raids have one goal. It is to clear the boss (unless it's a challenge mote or crystalline heart group). If you come in as a DPS role and bring a Spellbreaker, people might be a bit skeptical, sure, but if you can prove yourself, you won't get kicked. When I first started doing Power Mesmer in raids, people were extremely skeptical and I even got threats like: "If you're lowest dps, you're getting kicked." or the funny benchmark of: "If anyone has lower DPS than Esplen, they're getting kicked." (ironically I had top dps that run). People believe what they want to believe. You want to believe that Mesmer is a terrible DPS role, and that's an opinion. But as I've stated and proved, they aren't a bad DPS role, they just have a low-ish benchmark.

 

> - raid guild recommencations (mesmer is not recommended on most fights)

> - Living Insights provided (players with more LI tend to bring a better performance than those with less experience)

> - past experience with dps classes

> - use arcdps once their raid is full to make sure dps they have is sufficient

>

> If you aren't part of the group which gets initially invited because no one is looking for power mesmer, you'll never get to show your leet damage. Worse yet, if the other dps in your raid are good, you'll be mediocre at best.

 

So, Raid guild recommendations are useless information/criteria. You're talking about qT recommendations, but qT benchmarks and builds are for speedclears. That's something people forget. You can and should be trading things out as necessary. You can attempt to do a qT rotation and setup and die. Sure, you'll have fantastic DPS before you die, but as soon as you die, you provide nothing.

 

Living Insights provided? What does that even mean? If you're talking about LI/KP, that's irrelevant, because anyone and everyone can have them. If you're trying to say that a DPS Mesmer isn't going to have them, that's not actually a point. Like I said, anyone can have LI/KP, and so if you use lack of LI/KP as a reason to not bring DPS Mesmer, then you can use that as a reason to not bring any role, because it doesn't matter what role you are, if you don't have LI/KP, you're probably not getting into that group.

 

Past experiences? You mean like the data I showed you that shows that Mesmer has pulls good data and numbers in real settings?

 

Using Arc will give you the same numbers I showed you on Raidar, unless the player is bad, but that's an issue that would arise no matter what they were playing.

 

I have been a part of many groups as a power Mesmer, and I haven't been invited to any.

 

 

If you want to see why and how you've been disproved using my previous posts (that I refer to often), see all my posts on the previous page or as shortcuts: [1](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/168394/#Comment_168394) [2](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/169879/#Comment_169879) [3](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/171038/#Comment_171038)

 

You keep going back to arguments that I've already disproved using real data and not just vague "you won't get that result" (which ironically, I show myself and others... getting that result).

 

So yes, you are looking at things quite negatively, and you fail to actually read the posts. You simply look through for any few phrases you can go off and continue bashing your same argument out without realizing that your points are irrelevant, old, and quite frankly, wrong.

[Cyninja.2954]

Let's wait and see who remains to be right. My bet is, dps mesmer won't be a thing 8 weeks from now (that's a bit unfair, since it's not a thing currently but hey, I'm not the one arguing that dps mesmer is fine), and if chrono receives nerfs, neither will it.

[Esplen.3940]

I like how your bar keeps changing. First it was 2-3 weeks after PoF launch [source](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/129600#Comment_129600), then it was 4-6 weeks [source](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/171061#Comment_171061) and now it's 8 weeks from now (1.5 weeks after PoF launch).

 

EDIT: Since you did a ninja-edit I'll include one, too.

You're the one claiming that the DPS isn't fine and not showing any proof other than benchmarks (which, for the umpteenth time, aren't representative of actual output, just ideal output).

 

I'm sorry, I've proved, on multiple occasions, that Mesmer DPS is both viable and fine (for raids). If you want to state otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> I like how your bar keeps changing. First it was 2-3 weeks after PoF launch [source](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/129600#Comment_129600), then it was 4-6 weeks [source](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/171061#Comment_171061) and now it's 8 weeks from now (1.5 weeks after PoF launch).

>

> EDIT: Since you did a ninja-edit I'll include one, too.

> You're the one claiming that the DPS isn't fine and not showing any proof other than benchmarks (which, for the umpteenth time, aren't representative of actual output, just ideal output).

>

> I'm sorry, I've proved, on multiple occasions, that Mesmer DPS is both viable and fine (for raids). If you want to state otherwise, the burden of proof is on you.

 

My "ninja" edit was only to include the fact that I don't view dps mesmer as meta currently. Nothing else was changed. Glad you tried to make it sound more nefarious then it actually was...

 

Fine, let's say 4-6 weeks. Doesn't matter, depends on how long the balance phase from arenanet will take and how long raid guilds will need to find new builds and compositions. Has nothing to do with extending the time period but rather wait for realistic changes to the meta be available.

 

You have proven nothing. Dps mesmer (except for condi on matthis) is not searched for, it's not recommended by raid guilds and it's almost non existant in the current raid meta (both fixed and puged groups). I've said my peace as to why this is the case and I've come to different conclusions than you on both raid logs, class abilities and requirements to get taken along. There is no more burden of proof required because this is actually a matter of subjective analysis.

[Esplen.3940]

It's not though, because the logs show otherwise. You're looking at the data and saying "nah, I don't agree with it" and then making a subjective argument where I (and to some degree, Pyro) are using the data to pull a conclusion that Mesmer is a competent DPS role in raids.

 

I've proven multiple boss fights where Mesmer is a solid and strong DPS role, and you can't see past Matthias. I will go out on a limb and assume that it's because the only place where a Mesmer is shown as "viable" on qT's page is Matthias and Cairn.

[Justine.6351]

> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > @Justine.6351 said:

> > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > > > > @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

> > > > > > @FLEUR.7458 said:

> > > > > > I've been playing GW2 since beta, and because in original GW I played Mesmer (and followed the release of the Mesmer class since its announcement), my first character and main was of course a Mesmer. I've done all of my achievement hunting, story missions, map completion, etc on my Mesmer. Though I have had alts for a long time, I never really played them beyond just completing the story. I always sub-par geared them and took no time to learn rotations because they were just stand by alts in case I ever grew bored of my original profession.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > At release of PoF I specced mirage, played it for a bit - got a little into the story, and then I did something I havent done before - I switched to my viper reaper. I literally melted everything in the story line, had no problem in map completion, never died, did tons of damage. It sort of made me wonder why I even play mesmer. Then I realized I had grown comfortable in a niche.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My mesmer was useful for 3 things:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Fractals (if a mesmer wasnt already in the group)

> > > > > > Raids

> > > > > > HP trains

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But outside of those instances (in which other professions can perform easier and with less hostility from other players, and with an easier rotation/utility knowledge) my mesmer is pretty useless. Its fallen short in PvP and WvW.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And so, I guess I'm just wondering now - why do we play this class?

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, lets see.

> > > > > #PvE

> > > > > ###Open World and Story

> > > > > So I've geared up my mirage in full vipers/sinister etc, and it's actually incredibly solid open world compared to what mesmer has had to struggle with since launch.

> > > > > When specced appropriately, the amount of damage it can unload on a very regular basis is very respectable. It also has the capability, with a quick weapon and

> > > > > couple major trait swaps, to respec into a high sustain dps boss-killing build. When doing bounty trains in completely random mish-mashes of players, I hit top dps

> > > > > of a large squad every single time unless one of the bounties has a cancerous anti-mesmer mod. This basically demonstrates that mirage is able to produce

> > > > > extremely reliable single target dps in non-optimal scenarios; perfect for open world fights. Same goes for all the story stuff: melt normal things, minor respec for

> > > > > bosses to melt those too.

> > > > > ###Fractals and Dungeons

> > > > > Don't bring your mirage here...but you don't need to. Chrono exists! Chrono still exists and is still one of the very best classes you can slot into a party to make it

> > > > > drastically better. A properly played chrono is an extremely valuable player in all fractals and dungeons.

> > > > > ###Raids

> > > > > Obviously, the chronotank is still the meta of metas. It's challenging to play, extremely vital to the performance of a group, and absolutely required. Mirage and

> > > > > power mesmer are also solid choices for raid DPS now on many, though not all, fights. You're not going to top the QT dps charts, but you very well might get top

> > > > > dps in actual raid parties due to the extreme reliability of dps that the builds enable.

> > > > >

> > > > > #PvP

> > > > > Mirage is a decent duelist, condie chrono is still a solid choice, portal and moa and still portal and moa. Mesmer still and likely always will have somewhat of a slot...but honestly who plays PvP these days...

> > > > >

> > > > > #WvW

> > > > > For roaming and small groups, both mirage and chrono are extremely powerful, in a variety of builds at that. Full glassy burst chrono is still potent, condie chrono is still excellent, full support chrono is a valuable player in a havoc group. Mirage is an excellent WvW condition duelist, and can be sorta shoe-horned into a power build as well. In large groups, mirage is pretty awful right now, but support chrono is incredibly valuable with high output stability, boon reapplication, resistance generation, superspeed potential, aoe control, and aoe healing. Any good WvW group comp is going to include some chronos because of their powerful support abilities.

> > > > >

> > > > > And...that's about it. You can't just take 1 build and expect it to work in every aspect of the game. However, a mesmer player that is familiar with the breadth of what the class can provide and able to master all of those different playstyles will be extremely valuable in every single aspect of the game.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nice summery, but you did not disprove TC. All you said was mesmer is very useful in its niche as chrono, which no one disputes.

> > > >

> > > > Mesmers niche is being currently THE support class you want for group content.

> > > >

> > > > Should that get taken away, the class as a whole would be in a worse state than any other class ingame, even those which are not dps meta in raids for example (because you can always take along a subpar dps, but a subpar support class will get benched).

> > >

> > > Uh...did you read the OP at all? That's not even remotely what they said. The OP is saying that they feel mesmer is useful in HP trains, fractals, and raids, but is bad in PvP and WvW and open world/story stuff. The whole point of my post was to demonstrate that mesmer has viable and powerful builds in every single aspect of the game. Sure its "niche" is support, but that's no less impermanent than a DPS role. Just look at the rapid rise and fall of preferred DPS builds in raids as Anet has buffed and nerfed the various ways of dealing damage. In fact, based on the past 2 years of balance changes, the support roles (chrono, ps warrior, druid) are far and away the most stable and reliable roles in the entire game. You should be happy that the mesmer niche is support, evidence shows that it's the role least likely to be ruined with a balance patch.

> > >

> > > > @Justine.6351 said:

> > > > Stupid question,

> > > >

> > > > I was messing around with just an open world pver solo damage chrono and I ended up domination, dueling, chrono with full wells traited for alacrity. I still had my wvw commander/wanderer gearing and felt like I was doing good damage. Is full zerker wells a build?

> > >

> > > It's not really. You can do it, but it's very underwhelming. The damage wells do is incredibly weak, even the damage one. Just as a fun comparison, a full autoattack chain from sword will deal a small amount less damage than a full set of ticks from well of calamity...but doesn't take up a utility slot on a 20s cooldown. Chrono is usable in open world with power damage from shatters, sword 1/2, shield 5, and some random phantasm stuff...but it's very far from solid. The self-buffed quickness and alacrity that you can provide definitely helps bring it up somewhat, but it's still very underperforming.

> >

> > In a non-dps role (burst) is it OK for its ally alacrity balancing it out? Want to change out of support glamours for a well burst/alacrity bot instead in wvw. Idk will probably try but was curious if someone else had played it already. I play glass hammer rev too so glass mesmer wouldn't bother me too much.

>

> I'm assuming you're talking about large-scale fights? If so, then well burst/alacrity bot is not really an option. Particularly with the introduction of breaker bubbles, engagements are much too short and mobile to ever make use of the buffing that chrono wells can provide. Everything has to be done either on the move or capable of rapid unloading. You can certainly run a pick squad with a burst mesmer in it, but that's a rather different concept.

>

> If you're talking about open world PvE stuff, then yeah you can use wells and whatnot to provide sustained buffing. Nobody is really going to notice, but you will be having an effect on the people you support.

 

Ew tried this for 30 min last night. Changed back to glamours so fast ;-(

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> It's not though, because the logs show otherwise. You're looking at the data and saying "nah, I don't agree with it" and then making a subjective argument where I (and to some degree, Pyro) are using the data to pull a conclusion that Mesmer is a competent DPS role in raids.

>

> I've proven multiple boss fights where Mesmer is a solid and strong DPS role, and you can't see past Matthias. I will go out on a limb and assume that it's because the only place where a Mesmer is shown as "viable" on qT's page is Matthias and Cairn.

 

So your conclusion is objective but mine is not? You have an interesting concept of how graph analysis works.

 

The last logs you showed was of terrible pugs who were at sub 14 average might, 0-40% quickness and sub 40% alacrity on VG nonetheless, a fight which is 1.5 years old. If that is proof of power mesmer working, fine.

 

All I've seen so far were terrible personal logs and the logs from GW2raidar which:

 

- show that dps mesmer is midfield at best

- are not adjusted to post PoF builds

- do not account for the fact that other classes have to cover utility and cleave for the mesmer dps

 

I use quantify yes, but with close to 400 LI I've been to my fair share of raids (most gather within the last 6 months since I took a 9 month break from the game 1/2 a year after HoT). Mostly fixed groups, probably about 100 LI with PUG groups. I honestly don't care what you think. Time will tell. I have 10 full raid geared characters I can switch to should mesmer become completely unviable (since raid guilds require at least 2 classes as mains). My mesmer being my main will be fine for story and world completion stuff.

[apharma.3741]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

> It's not though, because the logs show otherwise. You're looking at the data and saying "nah, I don't agree with it" and then making a subjective argument where I (and to some degree, Pyro) are using the data to pull a conclusion that Mesmer is a competent DPS role in raids.

>

> I've proven multiple boss fights where Mesmer is a solid and strong DPS role, and you can't see past Matthias. I will go out on a limb and assume that it's because the only place where a Mesmer is shown as "viable" on qT's page is Matthias and Cairn.

 

There’s a reason why condi mirage is listed as ineffective on most other encounters, it isn’t because it can’t fill the dps role and do the minimum needed to kill the boss, it is because the mechanics of the mirage/mesmer have always worked against it and the team comp. As mentioned before it has barely any cleave, sucks to fight multiple smaller elite level bosses and has anything from a 20-60s ramp up depending on where you say good enough is.

 

If you turned up on a Condi Mirage for fractals you would be kicked straight away as there is only 1 (ok condi PS is technically a second because it’s so broken) person covering all the deficiencies of the mesmer class.

[Esplen.3940]

I haven't been vouching for Condi Mesmer. You guys have been putting that in my mouth.

 

I don't talk about Fractals because those require a more strict composition and fights should be fairly short with multiple phases outside of pugs, putting DPS Mesmer in an awkward situation.

 

And holy Kormir @"Cyninja.2954" how many times do I have to explain that Mesmer can cleave and provide utility? Do you not count Breakbars, Distortion Blocking, Reflects, Pulls/Pushes, and even the opportunity of Condi Cleanse (Resolve vs Sloth Fear) as no utility? Do you not count that 60% of the DPS is from Sword, Prestige, Sigil of Air, and Power Spike, which hits 3-5 targets as cleave?

 

If you'd like to disprove me, the burden of proof is on you. I've stated objective evidence of how Mesmer provides Cleave and Utility to counter your point of "no cleave or utility".

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Esplen.3940 said:

 

> And holy Kormir @"Cyninja.2954" how many times do I have to explain that Mesmer can cleave and provide utility? Do you not count Breakbars, Distortion Blocking, Reflects, Pulls/Pushes, and even the opportunity of Condi Cleanse (Resolve vs Sloth Fear) as no utility? Do you not count that 60% of the DPS is from Sword, Prestige, Sigil of Air, and Power Spike, which hits 3-5 targets as cleave?

 

As a matter of fact, no I do not count Breakbars, distortion, reflects and condi cleanse if they require sloting out dps when other dps classes bring these things either baseline or with less a drop in performance while being already better at providing dps.

 

As far as cleave. Sword range is a mediocre cleave with minimal range (mediocre because it has a 3 target cap and benefits only from 1 skill besides autoattack and is low damage. Yes, 60% is low damage when taken from an already low damage number). It's worse range wise compared to cleave like cPS fire fields, elemetalist fields, DH traps and GS cleave, and other classes. It does less damage than all of the above. I was not under the impression I had to explain this.