Add duels + "disable duels" option

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> > All these are people harassing the other person after being told no after a duel request. They are using dual request spam because it’s available to them. They’ll use trash talk if it’s not.

>

> Good job at finding a handful of exemples on a game older than the average Fortnite player, with many millions of players.

> Yeah, some people will be annoying. Some will whisper you. Too bad there is no such thing as a blocking feature.

 

It’s a game where if you look it’s easy enough to find posts complaining about duel request spamming and players trash talking to try to annoy people into accepting duels. The reason why there isn’t more isn’t because people refrain from harassing others. It’s because modders made addons to block duel requests and people use the addon after they were annoyed by duel requests.

 

>Too bad there is no such thing as a blocking feature.

 

The reason why there is a block feature is because people harass others. It wouldn’t be needed if they were behaving themselves.

[aceofbass.2163]

> @"JusticeRetroHunter.7684" said:

 

> Just look at PVE right now. Literally nobody talks to each other.

 

Literally LMAO.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> > There's no reason not to do it.

> As the one proposing the idea, it's up to you to offer a reason this would be worth ANet's time to add to the game. Otherwise, you can just :+1: any of the many, many existing threads that already exist on the topic.

>

> As for "reasons not to do it," there are plenty as has been expressed in those other threads including [the one from a few months ago](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/55950/open-world-duel-option-yay-nay-who-cares)

> ****

>

> ##### Relevant developer comments on open world dueling

> tl;dr not working on it now; no plans to do so

>

> > @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" [wrote in September 2018](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/695146/#Comment_695146):

> > I'm not against 1v1 dueling, with restrictions to areas. But as other's noted, to do this right requires a lot of work. (Specified duel areas, a way to change the skill ruleset used based on an area rather than a whole map, etc.

> >

> > We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future. Especially as we already have the means for players to create their own 1v1's via custom arenas.

>

>

 

This is the only thing one needs to know about dueling. It would require to much work, is not high enough on the to-do list, there is other content which takes priority.

 

I get why people would want dueling, it creates a space were people meet and interact with each other for the purpose of dueling. It allows for players to go up against almost any one participating in duels and you get to try out your build against multiple opponents. This is way more comfortable than meeting with 1-2 friends in a dueling spot like spvp arenas or guild halls.

 

That said, dueling also breeds:

- harassment if not properly implemented by simple nature of people being toxic

- puts additional load on the area where people "hang out" to duel. Minor issue for some games, maybe not so minor for GW2 when you have multiple effect fireworks go off at say a main hub or main hub entry point

- an insane amount of balance demands based around 1v1 match-ups. GW2 not being balanced around 1v1 would make the spvp and wvw forums light up like a Christmas tree all year round

 

Given that bigger servers occasionally use WvW areas for people to meet duel (has become less popular lately from what I can tell, might be subjective opinion since I've not actually searched for dueling areas) and there is spvp arenas for dueling only, while not ideal there are available methods within the game to duel if so desired. I doubt the vast majority of the GW2 player base is interested in this sort of feature and as such, I doubt we will see anything change as far as the official approach is.

 

Maybe a large open world area could be added (some smaller ones already exist but do not really get used) where all players are flagged against each other as to allow people to meet in the open world for dueling purposes. Though now we are getting into an open world pvp area which too is not in high demand of this player base.

[Aodlop.1907]

> undermines your argument that people won’t harass others about dueling

 

I didn't say nobody does it, I said few very few people do it. And even if every single person did it, I'd stick by what I just said : stop getting offended by everything.

[Eme.2018]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> The assumption based on spamming requests isnt a petty argument. It is a very genuine situation that has and does occur in mmos that have had or do have the feature. We arent stating this to be objectionable, we are stating this because it is an experienced issue. It comes down to whether you are able to see it from this side of the fence. If you cant, then you will not have seen it in the aforementioned games even when it arises.

People that want to spam you already have the means to do it and people who just want to duel won't spam you and that's that.

> Regardless, gw2 is a different game built on different foundations and ideaologies

Not really, not in that aspect at least. I can't imagine how the implementation would have a different impact on Gw2 than the impact it has on other games. It doesn't affect any players that don't want to use it

> no amount of disabling requests will eliminate the perceived toxicity that we either be.ieve or know from first hand experience that will come with the addition of any kind of pvp into it.

Metas bring toxicity, raids bring toxicity, fractals bring toxicity, hell even dungeons bring toxicity. Any kind of challenge has a chance to bring toxicity. PvP doesn't have a monopoly on this aspect.

>@"Chay.7852" said:

>Not the "real" pvp-fans or wvw-fans. But the trolls... and there are many ;) Those who camp at monuments with 3-4 ppl and kill the one (probably) pve-guy who is trying to do the master of monuments daily for example. Those who chase you over half of the map with some troll build but the moment when you start fighting them they will just run away -probably everyone knows what i mean ;)

You can't just deprive the majority of the player base of duels, just because of the chance that a small minority will use it illegitimately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> >Not the "real" pvp-fans or wvw-fans. But the trolls... and there are many ;) Those who camp at monuments with 3-4 ppl and kill the one (probably) pve-guy who is trying to do the master of monuments daily for example. Those who chase you over half of the map with some troll build but the moment when you start fighting them they will just run away -probably everyone knows what i mean ;)

> You can't just deprive the majority of the player base of duels, just because of the chance that a small minority will use it illegitimately.

>

 

Actually you can, and Arenanet does. Also you have not shown that the majority of the player base actually wants duels. That's where this argument falls flat.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Eme.2018" said:

> > > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > >Not the "real" pvp-fans or wvw-fans. But the trolls... and there are many ;) Those who camp at monuments with 3-4 ppl and kill the one (probably) pve-guy who is trying to do the master of monuments daily for example. Those who chase you over half of the map with some troll build but the moment when you start fighting them they will just run away -probably everyone knows what i mean ;)

> > You can't just deprive the majority of the player base of duels, just because of the chance that a small minority will use it illegitimately.

> >

>

> Actually you can, and Arenanet does. Also you have not shown that the majority of the player base actually wants duels. That's where this argument falls flat.

 

Duels are not being denied anyone. There is a place for them already. Simply use it.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > The assumption based on spamming requests isnt a petty argument. It is a very genuine situation that has and does occur in mmos that have had or do have the feature. We arent stating this to be objectionable, we are stating this because it is an experienced issue. It comes down to whether you are able to see it from this side of the fence. If you cant, then you will not have seen it in the aforementioned games even when it arises.

> People that want to spam you already have the means to do it and people who just want to duel won't spam you and that's that.

This is a serious counter-argument? My experience has been the complete opposite in other MMOs that have dueling, maybe because I'm too casual and seen as a scrub or easy kill for whatever rewards. I quit other MMOs for this exact situation.

 

 

[Eme.2018]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Actually you can, and Arenanet does. Also you have not shown that the majority of the player base actually wants duels. That's where this argument falls flat.

Okey, allow me to rephrase, I am talking about the majority of legitimate users.

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> This is a serious counter-argument?

Tell me why it is not a serious argument.

>My experience has been the complete opposite in other MMOs that have dueling, maybe because I'm too casual and seen as a scrub or easy kill for whatever rewards. >I quit other MMOs for this exact situation.

 

You experience isn't something that can tell you much about this situation without it being highly biased.

 

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Actually you can, and Arenanet does. Also you have not shown that the majority of the player base actually wants duels. That's where this argument falls flat.

>

> Okey, allow me to rephrase, I am talking about the majority of legitimate users.

>

>

 

Okay let me rephrase and link since you missed this:

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" [wrote in September 2018](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/695146/#Comment_695146):

> I'm not against 1v1 dueling, with restrictions to areas. But as other's noted, to do this right requires a lot of work. (Specified duel areas, a way to change the skill ruleset used based on an area rather than a whole map, etc.

>

> We have so many higher priorities that I can't see us ever actually getting to this in the foreseeable future. Especially as we already have the means for players to create their own 1v1's via custom arenas.

 

In short:

- it's a cool feature

- we will not be implementing it

- we do not believe enough people are interested in this to warrant bumping it up further up on the to-do list

 

There strait from an Arenanet employee not even 3 months ago. You are wrong.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

> > undermines your argument that people won’t harass others about dueling

>

> I didn't say nobody does it, I said few very few people do it.

 

Devs don’t design things that will be needed by only a few people. The fact that block features exist shows that players harassing others is a common and ongoing problem. Therefore the fact that duel requests and chat blocks exists undermines your argument that it’s only a few people that do it.

 

Wanting to play without getting duel requests or having to block others for harassing you about dueling is not the same as being offended by it. It just means you don’t want to be bothered by people who won’t take no for an answer.

 

 

[Eme.2018]

 

 

 

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> There strait from an Arenanet employee not even 3 months ago. You are wrong.

 

Mate, I didn't say that the majority of the player base wants duels, I said that the people who want duels and will legitimately use them are a majority compared to the trolls.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

>

>

>

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > There strait from an Arenanet employee not even 3 months ago. You are wrong.

>

> Mate, I didn't say that the majority of the player base wants duels, I said that the people who want duels and will legitimately use them are a majority compared to the trolls.

>

>

 

True, that I would agree with. Was easy to misunderstand. Still leaves the problem of likely being a feature not desired by a majority of the player base. Otherwise there would be a higher priority to it.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> You experience isn't something that can tell you much about this situation without it being highly biased.

>

Then where is your supporting evidence of your statement that "people who just want to duel won't spam you and that's that." ? Seems highly subjective/biased to me as well?

[Eme.2018]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> Then where is your supporting evidence of your statement that "people who just want to duel won't spam you and that's that." ? Seems highly subjective/biased to me as well?

Well people who just want to duel won't spam you by definition. If they understand that they won't get a duel out of you there will be no reason for them not to ask someone else and continue asking you. They **just** want to duel after all.

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > Then where is your supporting evidence of your statement that "people who just want to duel won't spam you and that's that." ? Seems highly subjective/biased to me as well?

> Well people who just want to duel won't spam you by definition. If they understand that they won't get a duel out of you there will be no reason for them not to ask someone else and continue asking you. They **just** want to duel after all.

>

Which was precisely my point. In another MMO, I was constantly spammed by people wanting to duel, even if I said no or ignored them. They would keep at it until I left the zone, maybe hoping I would finally say yes to get them to leave me alone.

 

Regardless, as has been stated before, there already exists an environment in GW2 for dueling. The game doesn't need to add it to other environments.

[TamX.1870]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> I get why people would want dueling, it creates a space were people meet and interact with each other for the purpose of dueling. It allows for players to go up against almost any one participating in duels and you get to try out your build against multiple opponents. This is way more comfortable than meeting with 1-2 friends in a dueling spot like spvp arenas or guild halls.

 

sPvP arena is not exactly a dueling spot, it is all vs all arena. It is very hard to use it for practising except in very, very quiet hours or unpopulated maps. Guild hall is bit better in this regard, even that it is also all vs all (or team vs team), as the access to spot is somewhat controlled. But even then, it is quite common that guilds have people who like to ruin certain matches, although of course that should be dealt between guild members.

 

> That said, dueling also breeds:

> - harassment if not properly implemented by simple nature of people being toxic

 

Anything you implement has a change to increase toxicity. As pointed out above, fractals, raids, WvW, sPvP (especially ranked), they all bring up toxicity. Open world events have harrassers like DHs dropping traps so that bosses are immediately killed before people waiting for that can tag it. Even such things like merchant or bank access and such can be used to harass other players. If you judge all features if they can introduce toxicity, you most probably end up creating single player games.

 

> - an insane amount of balance demands based around 1v1 match-ups. GW2 not being balanced around 1v1 would make the spvp and wvw forums light up like a Christmas tree all year round

 

Compared to current situation, duels would probably not change this in any way. There are always demands for balancing, including 1vs1 balancing. Most of us can accept that there are just handful of classes and builds who make great duelists. Implementing ranked 1vs1 arenas - that is, 1vs1 fights for rewards - would greatly increase the cries for 1vs1 balance, even that I would accept that such game mode would be for certain classes and certain builds.

 

Hardest balancing issues are not 1vs1 balances. It is when some class excels in all game modes, or some classes do not have spot in any game mode. To certain extentn, in game like this, it is acceptable that certain classes and builds work better in groups and some work better alone, and that some are better at PvE and some are better in PvP.

 

> Maybe a large open world area could be added (some smaller ones already exist but do not really get used) where all players are flagged against each other as to allow people to meet in the open world for dueling purposes. Though now we are getting into an open world pvp area which too is not in high demand of this player base.

 

No, all vs all arena is not needed. There is already such (sPvP lobby & guild hall).

 

"Official" dueling, no matter how it is implemented, is a counter-act against people trolling duels which are arranged now. If you go to WvW dueling spots, there are always people ruining your duels. The same happens in PvP lobby. Private custom arenas and guild hall to some extent are areas where you can have some control to the access when trying to organize duels for practising things.

 

Duels have their spot for practising, but dueling rings have their function as a "sosialicer" as well. Of course, not the only one. I would like to see more things that would gather like-minded people to chat with each other. Don't yet know how, but I try to figure out some suggestions in the future.

 

EDIT: If we talk about controlled dueling, that is, you can invite one other player to a fight, and there is no means others can interfere the fight, few good spots for such could be PvP lobby (there is already practicing targets) and WvW neutral areas. You would need some room around, a spot that is easily accessible (like PvP & WvW waypoints), and a way to take a fight so that it can't be interfered outside. Chatting possibility is mandatory: people may want to switch builds, switch toons, they may want to compare traits, share tips - and of course, bully others. But PvPers in general are probably thicker-skinned for all that.

[Eme.2018]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> Which was precisely my point. In another MMO, I was constantly spammed by people wanting to duel, even if I said no or ignored them. They would keep at it until I left the zone, maybe hoping I would finally say yes to get them to leave me alone.

Never happened to me but I would categorise those people as trolls. The average player is nothing like that.

> Regardless, as has been stated before, there already exists an environment in GW2 for dueling. The game doesn't need to add it to other environments.

 

Gw2 has areas that **can be used for dueling** but what we are asking for is not another area that, with a little bit of luck, **can be used for dueling**, we are asking for a direct duel option. As it has been stated before there are numerous reasons as to why someone wouldn't want this basic option to be missing. And I am pretty sure that any PvP player coming from another successful MMO to Gw2 would be hugely disappointed to find this basic of an option missing, as was I.

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"TamX.1870" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > I get why people would want dueling, it creates a space were people meet and interact with each other for the purpose of dueling. It allows for players to go up against almost any one participating in duels and you get to try out your build against multiple opponents. This is way more comfortable than meeting with 1-2 friends in a dueling spot like spvp arenas or guild halls.

>

> sPvP arena is not exactly a dueling spot, it is all vs all arena. It is very hard to use it for practising except in very, very quiet hours or unpopulated maps. Guild hall is bit better in this regard, even that it is also all vs all (or team vs team), as the access to spot is somewhat controlled. But even then, it is quite common that guilds have people who like to ruin certain matches, although of course that should be dealt between guild members.

>

> > That said, dueling also breeds:

> > - harassment if not properly implemented by simple nature of people being toxic

>

> Anything you implement has a change to increase toxicity. As pointed out above, fractals, raids, WvW, sPvP (especially ranked), they all bring up toxicity. Open world events have harrassers like DHs dropping traps so that bosses are immediately killed before people waiting for that can tag it. Even such things like merchant or bank access and such can be used to harass other players. If you judge all features if they can introduce toxicity, you most probably end up creating single player games.

>

> > - an insane amount of balance demands based around 1v1 match-ups. GW2 not being balanced around 1v1 would make the spvp and wvw forums light up like a Christmas tree all year round

>

> Compared to current situation, duels would probably not change this in any way. There are always demands for balancing, including 1vs1 balancing. Most of us can accept that there are just handful of classes and builds who make great duelists. Implementing ranked 1vs1 arenas - that is, 1vs1 fights for rewards - would greatly increase the cries for 1vs1 balance, even that I would accept that such game mode would be for certain classes and certain builds.

>

> Hardest balancing issues are not 1vs1 balances. It is when some class excels in all game modes, or some classes do not have spot in any game mode. To certain extentn, in game like this, it is acceptable that certain classes and builds work better in groups and some work better alone, and that some are better at PvE and some are better in PvP.

>

> > Maybe a large open world area could be added (some smaller ones already exist but do not really get used) where all players are flagged against each other as to allow people to meet in the open world for dueling purposes. Though now we are getting into an open world pvp area which too is not in high demand of this player base.

>

> No, all vs all arena is not needed. There is already such (sPvP lobby & guild hall).

>

> "Official" dueling, no matter how it is implemented, is a counter-act against people trolling duels which are arranged now. **If you go to WvW dueling spots**, there are always people ruining your duels. The same happens in PvP lobby. Private custom arenas and guild hall to some extent are areas where you can have some control to the access when trying to organize duels for practising things.

>

> Duels have their spot for practising, but dueling rings have their function as a "sosialicer" as well. Of course, not the only one. I would like to see more things that would gather like-minded people to chat with each other. Don't yet know how, but I try to figure out some suggestions in the future.

 

Have you gone to Eotm?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > Which was precisely my point. In another MMO, I was constantly spammed by people wanting to duel, even if I said no or ignored them. They would keep at it until I left the zone, maybe hoping I would finally say yes to get them to leave me alone.

> Never happened to me but I would categorise those people as trolls. The average player is nothing like that.

Yes, because the average player is not interested in any form of pvp.

 

The people that keep asking for duels over and over again are not trolls (well, some of them are, but not all of them). They are just people that want to duel others in an environment where they are so rare _they cannot find anyone else genuinely interested to duel them_. Thus, they turn to asking everyone for duels, and after getting uniformly negative responses they start getting desperate.

 

Let's be honest, in GW2, i'd bet that odds of having _two_ players wanting to genuinely duel each other in an otherwise purely PvE map are pretty low. And they'd have to be in the same map spot to even interact with each other (or they'd keep spamming map chat, which is also something that would definitely happen, yet something i'd rather _not_ see).

[TamX.1870]

> @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> Have you gone to Eotm?

 

Mists Arena? Aren't that exactly like WvW landscape, so that (1) you need to be on different server than people you like to duel with, (2) it's prone to have people around zerging the duels, and (3) discussing with your opponent can be bit rough. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"TamX.1870" said:

> > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > Have you gone to Eotm?

>

> Mists Arena? Aren't that exactly like WvW landscape, so that (1) you need to be on different server than people you like to duel with, (2) it's prone to have people around zerging the duels, and (3) discussing with your opponent can be bit rough. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

- Anyone can be added to party.

- EoTM is dead. No one is there. Getting ‘Zerged down’ would be a celebratory event

- And yes, you need to be on a different server.

 

[Eme.2018]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Yes, because the average player is not interested in any form of pvp.

I though it was rather obvious but I am specifically talking about people interested in duels. That note aside, how do you know that the average player is not interested in any form of PvP because I find it hard to believe.

> The people that keep asking for duels over and over again are not trolls (well, some of them are, but not all of them). They are just people that want to duel others in an environment where they are so rare _they cannot find anyone else genuinely interested to duel them_. Thus, they turn to asking everyone for duels, and after getting uniformly negative responses they start getting desperate.

It is a fact that the majority of the people that want to duel don't display spammy behavior. I think people have starting coming to that conclusion because it is easier to notice and remember someone that was indeed spamming you than to notice and remember someone who just sent you an invite or pmed you once and asked.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > Which was precisely my point. In another MMO, I was constantly spammed by people wanting to duel, even if I said no or ignored them. They would keep at it until I left the zone, maybe hoping I would finally say yes to get them to leave me alone.

> Never happened to me but I would categorise those people as trolls. The average player is nothing like that.

> > Regardless, as has been stated before, there already exists an environment in GW2 for dueling. The game doesn't need to add it to other environments.

>

> Gw2 has areas that **can be used for dueling** but what we are asking for is not another area that, with a little bit of luck, **can be used for dueling**, we are asking for a direct duel option. As it has been stated before there are numerous reasons as to why someone wouldn't want this basic option to be missing. And I am pretty sure that any PvP player coming from another successful MMO to Gw2 would be hugely disappointed to find this basic of an option missing, as was I.

>

>

I get what you're saying and I'm not intending to be contentious. I think someone else has already suggested that those who want this "add" need to make a compelling argument as to the benefits ANet would gain from the effort and potential back-lash. So far, I haven't seen a compelling argument -- good thing I'm not the one making the decision though, right? ;)

 

 

 

[Palador.2170]

> @"Aodlop.1907" said:

>

> Good job at finding a handful of exemples on a game older than the average Fortnite player, with many millions of players.

> Yeah, some people will be annoying. Some will whisper you. Too bad there is no such thing as a blocking feature.

This is, apparently, the third thread you've made and the third time you've been told "No". This time there's even a recent Dev statement to back it up. Are you going to accept "No" as the answer this time, or will you be making a fourth thread and asking again?

 

Anyway... Why is Open World PvP such a problem? Well, let's look at how it would interact with the open world.

 

First, we pick a location most players will know. In this case, the centaur/Seraph battle field right outside Shaemoor Garrison. Everything in this game breaks down into teams, or so we were once told. So, we have Team Players (which includes any pets they have), Team Seraph (friendly NPCs), Team Centaur, Team Neutral Wildlife (deer along one edge), Team Hostile Wildlife (Bears), and Team Skritt. How each character can interact with others is decided by the teams they're on. Team Skritt is hostile to Teams Player, Hostile WIldlife, and Seraph; while neutral to Teams Neutral Wildlife and Centaur, for example.

 

Two people want to duel there, so we need teams for them too. Teams Red and Blue. Now, at first it seems simple, set everything for Red and Blue the same as Team Player, save that they're hostile to each other. But... that doesn't work. Teams Player and Seraph can buff Teams Red and Blue, messing with the duel, so that needs to change. What do you set them to, though? They can't be allies, or the problem remains. Neutral? Do that, and others can be drawn into the duel by just hitting them, like starting a fight with a deer. Hostile is clearly not going to work either.

 

The situation gets worse when a wave of centaurs charges through the dueling area. Do Red and Blue add to the scaling of the event spawning those centaurs? If they do, it's a problem because they can't properly interact with Team Player at that moment, so all of those teams are at a disadvantage. That's an accepted risk for Red and Blue, but not for Team Player. It's also a problem if they don't, as dueling can then become a way to have excess players at an event without scaling it up, creating an exploit.

 

This is only scratching the surface, but it shows the real problems with OW Dueling. It would require a ton of fixes and workarounds, and be almost certain to introduce either exploits or bugs. That's why they made Guild Hall arenas, they're set up to avoid those problems. Part of how they avoid those problems, however, is by not being in the open world.