Please don't put Champions on top of hero points.

[Knight In Shining Armor.17]

Heart of Thorns was notorious for putting champions on skill points that were virtually impossible to kill solo. PoF did it much better. I never had a problem getting any single skill point there. What helped me a lot was buying the unobtainable skill points from the WvW vendor Heroics Notary. You need Testimonies of Heroics but at least that was obtainable all by yourself.

[Automaton.2751]

> @"Knight In Shining Armor.1708" said:

> Heart of Thorns was notorious for putting champions on skill points that were virtually impossible to kill solo. PoF did it much better. I never had a problem getting any single skill point there. What helped me a lot was buying the unobtainable skill points from the WvW vendor. You need a certain map currency but at least that was obtainable all by yourself.

 

See, now this is another problem I have with it. *Buying* your skill points because it's too hard to do solo and no one will help? If you have points that are too difficult to solo and no one will help, buying them just takes the fun away. - Not that there *is* much fun when that's the case. But if you can simply *buy* skill points. Why have them? Why not simply say, "oh, here's some extra currency, go buy your class points." why have hero points at all if you're gonna give people the option to just bypass it entirely?

[TwiceDead.1963]

Naw, leave em' as is. Some HP's should be challenging, or different in some way to avoid things getting stale. If you really want that HP, do what needs to be done to complete it. Ask for help, or try a different approach until you win... Like, I would love to Base Jump with my cocktail-umbrella, unfortunately I don't think it's cut out for the task so even if I dont want to, I am gonna have to swallow my pride and either bring a parachute or a wingsuit if I am going to have any success.

[Automaton.2751]

Challenging, yes, never said they shouldn't be. I just don't think they should be impossible to do solo. And someone mentioned the HoT champion points. If they're champions that they deliberatly made easier than other's (like certain story-based champions) where they're champion in name only, sure. Put out a really hard enemy. But I'm meaning the proper champions that it is impossible to solo. The kind that literally do 40 - 50 % of your health in one hit. Like the one I mentioned in my OP.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> Challenging, yes, never said they shouldn't be. I just don't think they should be impossible to do solo. And someone mentioned the HoT champion points. If they're champions that they deliberatly made easier than other's (like certain story-based champions) where they're champion in name only, sure. Put out a really hard enemy. But I'm meaning the proper champions that it is impossible to solo. The kind that literally do 40 - 50 % of your health in one hit. Like the one I mentioned in my OP.

 

There are no HoT HP champions that are impossible to solo. Difficult? Certainly for a player still unlocking their elite spec. But not impossible. And taking 40-50% of your health in one hit does not make them "impossible". Obviously, you're supposed to avoid that damage or reduce/remove the chance of the attack. See my explanation of the champion arrowhead, which can easily do 100% damage in a single hit to builds like glass thief/ele with one of its attacks. The trick is that with proper positioning you can prevent it from ever using that attack.

 

The same applies to the chak lobber in the southern part of AB. Its shake attack can take you down if you allow it to hit you with all 3 hits. But why would you ever stand there and allow it to hit you THREE times? Dodge, block, invuln, back out to range. You have a number of ways to avoid the damage. And if all of those are on cooldown you still have the option of preventing the attack from ever happening by staying at range. It will only use the shake if you attempt to fight it at melee range. It will use the charge attack instead if you're at range and that deals far less damage and might as well have a huge blinking neon sign for a telegraph for how easy it is to see it coming.

 

Again, you all are welcome to your opinion but there's no need to exaggerate. Maybe these things seem impossible to you but they are not impossible to solo for everyone. Besides, you already got your wish with PoF. You got veterans instead of champions and for those of us who want champions on demand, we got bounties. And bounties are significantly more difficult than HoT HP champions. It's a win-win for all. And if they wanted to add bounties to HoT, I wouldn't be opposed to them downgrading champion HPs. But just removing them and replacing them with nothing? No, thanks. I like my HP champions just the way they are.

 

 

[Quarktastic.1027]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> > @"Zin Dau.1749" said:

> > if you want to solo the game, then make a powerful solo build that can solo any content, no matter how challenging.

>

> Sure... Let's make a Build that can solo champions... Not only does that mean that I'd simply have to be like everyone else, not caring for how I want to play, that's also only possible with certain classes. And also then just makes me another clone of everyone else that's done that. Thanks, but no.

 

Speaking specifically of that champion risen noble, (one of the more challenging core tyria champions imo) if my full glass viper renegade can solo it, I'm pretty sure any profession can solo it.

 

[Automaton.2751]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> There are no HoT HP champions that are impossible to solo. Difficult? Certainly for a player still unlocking their elite spec. But not impossible.

>

 

I did recently address the HoT specific HP champs in my last message. They're champs in name only and not built like a proper champ and while harder than a vet, or maybe an elite, still not actually at champ level.

 

> @"Quarktastic.1027" said:

> Speaking specifically of that champion risen noble, (one of the more challenging core tyria champions imo) if my full glass viper renegade can solo it, I'm pretty sure any profession can solo it.

>

 

Ok, so maybe you can do it, doesn't mean everyone can. Plus, if I may ask, what kind of gear do you have on this glass viper of yours? My guess would be ascended. I've only recently finished the story on a couple of toons, my best gear is some exotics I got on the market place, or a few I got in dungeons. My gear certainly doesn't allow me to kill a champion on my own. And not meaning any offence, but unless I see this champion killed solo, I can't honestly believe it. I will make any and all apologies requested if I see it myself, but until then I just don't see it. Same as I wouldn't believe you could solo the giant cat boss in arah if I hadn't seen the video for myself. (you can google that one)

 

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Automaton.2751" said:

> taking 40-50% of your health in one hit does not make them "impossible". Obviously, you're supposed to avoid that damage or reduce/remove the chance of the attack

>

>

 

What if this attack is the enemies base auto attack that happens more often than you have dodge? Plus, you're only capable of staying at range in very specific circumstance. If, like in the HP I've been talking about since the OP it's a melee enemy, that's not possible. And being in a tunnel you can only kite it so far before it leaves for it's original position, or you have to run right past it, assuming the numerous orrian turrets in the tunnel haven't killed you already, and you can't effectively attack it while running away and you don't backtrack fast enough.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

 

> What if this attack is the enemies base auto attack that happens more often than you have dodge? Plus, you're only capable of staying at range in very specific circumstance. If, like in the HP I've been talking about since the OP it's a melee enemy, that's not possible. And being in a tunnel you can only kite it so far before it leaves for it's original position, or you have to run right past it, assuming the numerous orrian turrets in the tunnel haven't killed you already, and you can't effectively attack it while running away and you don't backtrack fast enough.

 

Hey, I'm not saying every champion is easy or that all classes are equal when it comes to fighting them. But you said it was impossible and that is simply not true. I went ahead and killed this champion solo just to be sure it wasn't a special case. It took 1:40 for the champion and veteran. It had the same amount of health as most HoT HP champions (around 500k) and didn't really do anything but hit hard with melee attacks and apply weakness.

 

For good measure I also did the champion Eye of Zhaitan located in the same tunnel. That one went down in 1:30 (about the same as the other minus the veteran) and basically the only attack to worry about was his spin volley which telegraphs for about a full second just to let you know it's coming! These guys are not any tougher or easier than HoT champs.

 

You have more than just a dodge skill. All classes do. Anything that buys you time should be used to stretch your cooldowns to reach that next save. Kiting, line of sight, heals, breakbars, invulns, blocks, stealth, pets, heals, even damage reduction like protection, etc. It all buys you time to keep on fighting. Maybe it's still beyond your ability, but that's okay! It's not the end of the world if every now and then you have to get a little help. And as it happens I had to pass on my first solo attempt because 2 other players were already there killing this guy. Imagine that?

[Automaton.2751]

Well, for me, yes, soloing champs is very much beyond me. Maybe I suck, but that's still ok. As long as I have fun. But the point remains that it's still not good to force a person to get help for character building content. I mean, wanna go get that optional stuff over there? Go get a friend to kill this really hard boss. Wanna get this thing you need for your toon's progress? Sod off and get a friend to help.

 

Don't get me wrong. As I said somewhere up there, I have nothing against asking for help. I'd just prefer to get stuff like that without it, and if it's at a slow time and no one is around, or no one that's willing to help at least. You are forced to wait. To come back later. That's not fun.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> Well, for me, yes, soloing champs is very much beyond me. Maybe I suck, but that's still ok. As long as I have fun. But the point remains that it's still not good to force a person to get help for character building content. I mean, wanna go get that optional stuff over there? Go get a friend to kill this really hard boss. Wanna get this thing you need for your toon's progress? Sod off and get a friend to help.

>

> Don't get me wrong. As I said somewhere up there, I have nothing against asking for help. I'd just prefer to get stuff like that without it, and if it's at a slow time and no one is around, or no one that's willing to help at least. You are forced to wait. To come back later. That's not fun.

 

I would agree if it were everywhere, all the time. But we're talking about one hero point in a single zone here. I like it when we have things like this in moderation.

[Automaton.2751]

Well, from what you say, the champ there was about the same as the HoT champs, which kinda means it is up there. ;)

 

But still, I believe this discussion has about run it's course. It's mostly just people telling me to make a copy-paste build from meta or something so I can solo champs. That's not fun. I want to play my game, my way with *my* build. Maybe that means I can't solo a champion. I'm not ashamed by that. But I still feel that character building content while yes, should provide a challenge, definitely shouldn't be *that* hard.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Hot hero points going to admit i solo them

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> Challenging, yes, never said they shouldn't be. I just don't think they should be impossible to do solo.

The point in question in Malchor's actually is easy to do solo if the event isn't up. If the champ is in your way, just leave it and come back another time.

[Automaton.2751]

What is your gear like? Exotic, legendary/ascended? Other?

[Automaton.2751]

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > @"Automaton.2751" said:

> > Challenging, yes, never said they shouldn't be. I just don't think they should be impossible to do solo.

> The point in question in Malchor's actually is easy to do solo if the event isn't up. If the champ is in your way, just leave it and come back another time.

 

I know mate, but that still leads straight back into what I was saying earlier. In about the 2nd or 3rd post. I'd rather not be told "try again later" on character building content simply cause they put a champion on top of a hero point, with the one in question being out of the way of anything else meaning the champ is put there deliberately to make this point harder. Vistas, points of interest, waypoints. Don't care about champs on any of these. Just don't think they should be on HP.

[Rasimir.6239]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> Well, from what you say, the champ there was about the same as the HoT champs, which kinda means it is up there. ;)

>

> But still, I believe this discussion has about run it's course. It's mostly just people telling me to make a copy-paste build from meta or something so I can solo champs. That's not fun. I want to play my game, my way with *my* build. Maybe that means I can't solo a champion. I'm not ashamed by that. But I still feel that character building content while yes, should provide a challenge, definitely shouldn't be *that* hard.

 

But you don't need that specific hero point to build your character. In fact, you don't need any of the core Tyria hero points to finish your core build, as all of the needed hero points are given through leveling. Core Tyria provides an extra 214 hero points, HoT provides 400 hero points, PoF provides 290 hero points, and each elite specialization needs 250 hero points, so there is an excess of 404 hero points available. You can build your own way and will still find plenty of hero points to gather, even if one or two specific ones are beyond your build.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> > @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> > The point in question in Malchor's actually is easy to do solo if the event isn't up. If the champ is in your way, just leave it and come back another time.

>

> I know mate, but that still leads straight back into what I was saying earlier. In about the 2nd or 3rd post. I'd rather not be told "try again later" on character building content simply cause they put a champion on top of a hero point, with the one in question being out of the way of anything else meaning the champ is put there deliberately to make this point harder.

 

In case anyone is interested, here's the capsule history of the Malchor's Champion being discussed. It started out as a Veteran. ANet later changed it to a Champion, saying that that had been their intent all along, but in the build-up to launch the mob status got lost in the shuffle.

 

Then, In January, 2113, ANet did a revamp of the Risen army, which included giving Risen Nobles the teleport to target, CC and drop nasty AoE skill that champ repeats a lot. the version on regular and vet Nobles is a bit dangerous, but the champion one can be deadly. This was apparently viewed as "not a problem" by ANet, even given the cramped space of those tunnels. At launch, the Orr zones were considered part of endgame, and ANet envisioned groups of players running around and doing events like that one. In fact, that was what happened for a significant part of the game. However, the Orr zones attracted fewer players after the more lucrative events (like the Plinx chain in CS) got nerfed to prevent players running it over and over. Once the Silverwastes hit, Orr fell off -- and now, Champ trains are for the most part a part of the game's history.

 

As is true in many MMO's, the developers rarely spend significant resources to update content that is now considered passe. Even in core zones that have seen new content, that content has come with the introduction of new events (Mordrem in Iron Marches) rather than changes to old ones.

 

So, it's fine to ask, but don't hold your breath. Your best option is likely to remain a work-around (come back, or ask for help) if you find the champ too difficult to solo.

[Automaton.2751]

Indeed. I never really thought it was going to get chenged just by me postin gon the forums. Mainly using it as a place to vent.

 

On the subject of champions though. I recently just got 1hit kill from 98% health by the champ risen knight that is near the HP in douth-western Malchor's Leap. I was on my Berserker, 21,262 hp, 1,543 prot and 2,754 armour. Am I doing something wrong or was that overkill?

[Automaton.2751]

It's not even just champions recently either. I've been taking excessive amounts of damage from a lot of mobs a Veteran Ember just normal hit me for between 1,200 - 1,977 with burning...

[Cuks.8241]

You can easily get all the hp you need to unlock both elite specs solo.

If you want 100 % completion of the maps it is ok that a game requires some teamwork for it. It is a mmorpg after all. Teamwork in mmos is kinda the point of the games.

Hot maps are probably hardest to complete solo and guess what, they are the most active maps. If you check the lfg there are constantly groups running hp runs, events, map completion, achievements ...

[Vayne.8563]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > Anyway, you're welcome to your own opinion (but not your own facts!). Personally, I'm of the opinion that they should leave it as is. I like fighting these guys and helping other players to fight them (leading HP trains, etc.) and there is no shortage of players in HoT and never has been. If you need help, it's easy to find.

> >

>

> This, is wrong. Depending on the time zone of the player HoT maps can be empty. ive spent well over an hour with a tag up asking for help(both in map chat and in LFG) in Auric Basin not during the meta to do some of the HPs with champions out in that zone, even longer in other zones, tangled depths was the worst, followed by ,VB and Dragon Stand as the easiest one. If there is one player and one player only at those hero points it should be a veteran(obviously my opinion, but doing map completion on my ele was incredibly painful due to not being able to solo them and not being able to get help.)

>

>

 

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > Anyway, you're welcome to your own opinion (but not your own facts!). Personally, I'm of the opinion that they should leave it as is. I like fighting these guys and helping other players to fight them (leading HP trains, etc.) and there is no shortage of players in HoT and never has been. If you need help, it's easy to find.

> >

>

> This, is wrong. Depending on the time zone of the player HoT maps can be empty. ive spent well over an hour with a tag up asking for help(both in map chat and in LFG) in Auric Basin not during the meta to do some of the HPs with champions out in that zone, even longer in other zones, tangled depths was the worst, followed by ,VB and Dragon Stand as the easiest one. If there is one player and one player only at those hero points it should be a veteran(obviously my opinion, but doing map completion on my ele was incredibly painful due to not being able to solo them and not being able to get help.)

>

>

 

Nope, that guy is quite correct. I've done HOT at every hour of the day and night and the times I've had trouble finding someone to two virtually all hero points is neglible. There are exceptions in all the zones, but they remain that...the exceptions. You can fully unlock an elite spec quite easily without resorting to the few that are hard to get help with.

 

For example, the mushroom under Rata Sum is much easier to do after the event chain is cleared and before that it would be hard to do. But since HoT has 40 hero points and you only need 25 for an elite spec unlock, slipping the hardest 15 of them makes getting elite specs in HoT quite easy.

 

There are also four in Dragon Stand that require a meta run. So if you take off say 2 in VB, 2 in AB, and 2 in TD, plus 4 in DS you still have five more you can skip and still unlock an elite spec. Source, I've done it on over 40 characters and helped innumerable players in my guild do this, not just on US hours, but on Australian hours as well.

[Biff.5312]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> > @"Biff.5312" said:

> > I've done that HP on a number of toons, and have only occasionally had any difficulty. 1) you can ask for help, especially if one of the dailies is events in Malchor's Leap; 2) you can try kiting the boss away and sneaking back to the HP (using pets, etc.); 3) you can wait until someone else draws the boss off or kills it and just walk in. 90% of the time one of these three is a viable approach. Very rarely you'll have to pass on that HP for the time being. Good thing there's more HPs than you can possibly ever use.

>

> Kiting with "pets etc" is only available to some classes "waiting until someone else kills it and then grabbing it" is exactly what I was complaining about and asking for help only works if there are people willing to help plus that's *also* exactly what I was complaining about in the first place. - Not being able to do these things solo...

 

Well, if the fact that it's easy to complete 90% of the time is enough to deter you, and you get upset about not soloing even though there's absolutely no requirement for you to complete this particular HP, I don't know what to tell you. Some people enjoy occasional challenges. It's not like you can't grab enough HPs to max out your specs without doing any that are difficult. You can.

[Automaton.2751]

> @"Biff.5312" said:

>

> Well, if the fact that it's easy to complete 90% of the time is enough to deter you, and you get upset about not soloing even though there's absolutely no requirement for you to complete this particular HP, I don't know what to tell you. Some people enjoy occasional challenges. It's not like you can't grab enough HPs to max out your specs without doing any that are difficult. You can.

 

Well, firstly, that champ pops pretty ften, so at best I'd say 50% of the time, which still goes against my own personal experience. I've gone there on 4 toons and on 3 of them it was present, and more times than I care to count I've gone out to help other's experiencing the same problem because I know how frustrating it was for me.

 

But you're basically telling me to just skip it because it's "not needed" Wha tabout map completion? loot, rewards. bonuses. It very much *is* needed. Just because I *can* spec without it doesn't mean I'm obligated to skip it because it's hard.

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> > @"Biff.5312" said:

> >

> > Well, if the fact that it's easy to complete 90% of the time is enough to deter you, and you get upset about not soloing even though there's absolutely no requirement for you to complete this particular HP, I don't know what to tell you. Some people enjoy occasional challenges. It's not like you can't grab enough HPs to max out your specs without doing any that are difficult. You can.

>

> Well, firstly, that champ pops pretty ften, so at best I'd say 50% of the time, which still goes against my own personal experience. I've gone there on 4 toons and on 3 of them it was present, and more times than I care to count I've gone out to help other's experiencing the same problem because I know how frustrating it was for me.

>

> **But you're basically telling me to just skip it because it's "not needed" Wha tabout map completion? loot, rewards. bonuses. It very much *is* needed. Just because I *can* spec without it doesn't mean I'm obligated to skip it because it's hard.**

 

You are correct that you are not obligated. But Anet isn’t obligated to provide an easier path either.

 

As was stated before, complete the ones you can, the ones you can’t, get friends, or... play WvW and get some heroics which will allow you to complete the ones you can’t manage other ways.

 

They HAVE given you multiple options. Which is all I can ask from a game company, you disagreeing with the options is fine.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Automaton.2751" said:

> > @"Biff.5312" said:

> >

> > Well, if the fact that it's easy to complete 90% of the time is enough to deter you, and you get upset about not soloing even though there's absolutely no requirement for you to complete this particular HP, I don't know what to tell you. Some people enjoy occasional challenges. It's not like you can't grab enough HPs to max out your specs without doing any that are difficult. You can.

>

> Well, firstly, that champ pops pretty ften, so at best I'd say 50% of the time, which still goes against my own personal experience. I've gone there on 4 toons and on 3 of them it was present, and more times than I care to count I've gone out to help other's experiencing the same problem because I know how frustrating it was for me.

>

> But you're basically telling me to just skip it because it's "not needed" Wha tabout map completion? loot, rewards. bonuses. It very much *is* needed. Just because I *can* spec without it doesn't mean I'm obligated to skip it because it's hard.

 

Nobody is telling you to skip it forever. Is it really that hard to just come back to it later? I mean if map completion is all you care about, there are literally hundreds of other objectives you need. Just go work on map completion elsewhere and check back periodically. There's a waypoint right next to this challenge. What's the big deal? It seems like such a minor thing to demand a change for.