Anoxia.3850 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I am trying to piece lore together and figure things out. I have been playing the game since launch off and on but only really started to get into it this year. One thing I've noticed in particular is that while I know the dragons go to sleep and awake. Are they trying to destroy the world? Why? Are they evil? Is it their only purpose? Follow up question, I know that Glint was trying to take Kralks place, also Aurene is destined to do so. Would they become evil? What is their TRUE purpose. Thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starhunter.6015 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Evil no, it would be like saying that the erupting volcano was evil or the hurricane was evil. The Elder Dragons just don't see any of the races as much more then food or fodder. They eat and then sleep a natural cycle . Glint grew to understand humans and the other races, something that the ED's don't . So Glints idea is that a dragon raised understanding the races would have at least compassion and understanding making the new ED's more considerate of the other living beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 no, they are not evil. They lack some requirements for being evil. They are as evil as a vulcanic eruption or a tornado. Forces of nature, catastrophic, but without intent. Also, they do not try to destroy the world. They are balancing it. For living beings, especially intelligent beings, that might be a bit traumatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castigator.3470 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Dragons on Tyria are magical creatures. Not only that, they have the ability to absorb ambient magic and use this to grow stronger. Larger dragons seem to be able to absorb more magic and at some point in the history of Tyria six dragons have become truly gigantic. These elder dragons serve the purpose of regulating the world's ambient magic. Too much of it would destabilize time and space, while too little would cause all spells to fail. Unfortunately, the elder dragons don't care about the civilizations of lesser beings. They awake, eat all the magic and go back to sleep. No one on Tyria knows how long this cycle has continued, but for the longest time no one has been able to challenge the elder dragons. Civilizations fell and once great races are reduced to savages, like the Jotunn or go extinct, like the Seers. As a rule of thumb, the more reliant on magic a civilization was the harder they fell, unless they could leave Tyria and escape the cycle, like the Mursaat, who were exterminated by a group of ascalonian heroes some 250 years ago. This system has been threatened in 1325, when the Pact killed Zhaitan. A surge of Magic awakened Mordremoth, who had to be put down Promordus and Jormag had a magical bout that put them back to sleep and Kralkatorrik has been supercharged by a Bloodstone. Now we need to fix that system, otherwise magic will threaten to corrupt our savefiles, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Some backstory tried to suggest they were incomprehensible and destructive forces of nature. But they've been given a fair bit of personality over time, and even from the beginning, they have evil personality traits (selfish gluttony, deliberate intent to control or kill others) or produce evil results -- physical and personality changes in their minions that are always called "corruption", never "transformation". Their minions, if they have any remnant of their old personality, have the parts that would be considered "evil", such as cruelty, hatred, and bloodlust. With Jormag and the Sons of Svanir, it actually seems to offer power in exchange for voluntary corruption, like a sort of demonic pact. A volcano erupts or a storm blows because of pressure and natural forces. They don't deliberately choose to aim rocks or winds at people, it just happens. So, yes, the Elder Dragons are evil. That said, they don't destroy the world, so much as they do a lot of damage to the natural world and destroy civilization. I don't think they really have a complicated goal, though, other than "eat magic, get full, go to sleep". Metaphorically, Glint's legacy represents the happy middle ground between "nature destroys civilization, producing mass death and endless misery" (dragon cycle) and "civilization triumphs over nature's cruelty, then foolishly destabilizes nature and self-destructs" (killing all the dragons). Basically, civilization finding a way to reach its goals within the constraints imposed by the need for ecological balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgs.6103 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Objectively, no. Subjectively, yes. Do you consider lions and predators in general evil when they hunt and kill prey or attack humans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle of Stars.3049 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 They have blue-orange morality that is beyond the scope of our own. I think, they are incapable of comprehending what is good and what is evil (correct me on this) unlike the deities that are being revered by the humans of Tyria. Pretty much like the Eldritch Abominations in Lovecraftian literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 Yes, they are evil, and have always been intended to be sapient beings. When the game began, the player's view of the Elder Dragons was that they're compared to forces of nature, and even called such by many Tyrians. This was an intentional unreliable narrator by ArenaNet, as the common Tyrian doesn't really know about the Elder Dragons, and it is the common Tyrian's *belief* that they're mindless forces of nature that. Unfortunately, many people - such as @"starhunter.6015" and @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" - never got past that unreliable narrator that was so very common in the early game and pre-release promotions. A fault on ArenaNet for overusing unreliable narration, imo. But it's shown in the personal story, and in far more detail later on, that the Elder Dragons **do** have personality, that they **are** sapient, and that above all, _they are intentionally destroying civilizations to fuel their own power and agenda_. Furthermore, their "eat and then sleep" lifestyle is **not a natural cycle** nor their intended choice, they have no intention of sleeping, but with six of these Elder Dragons, all vying for that same magic, they run out before long and _they have no choice but to sleep_. And while the Elder Dragons regulate magic, it is not their choice to regulate magic, but rather a side-effect of their greed. Because six is too many for them to consume all the magic for their goals themselves, they must go to sleep to let it build up again, and will wake up when a large amount of magic is about, to repeat the cycle anew. So caught up in their glutton and greed, they cannot break out of this cycle that they do not care for, because they're unwilling to give quarter to the other five Elder Dragons. To clarify, they are **not** out to destroy the world. In fact, by all appearances, every Elder Dragon is after a different thing. But each goal of theirs does result in destroying much of the landscape, intentional or not, and does result in wiping out civilizations in their glutton for more magic and greed for more power. When one looks at the dialogue of the warped dragon minion personalities, the Elder Dragons and their minions' actions, and in the cases of Jormag, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik, into the Elder Dragons' very thoughts, we can see a semblance of personality and goal. * Zhaitan's risen often speak about life eternal, reunion with lost friends, family, and loved ones. At the same time, Zhaitan kept risen in the same positions they had before corruption - naval captains were in charge of dead ships, high priests were in charge of temples - and many risen in Orr went about doing the same thing they did before death; the exception of this rule was the kings and queens, who were "demoted" into the Eyes of Zhaitan. Many risen - such as Captain Whiting from the Sea of Sorrows novel - even speak about "Zhaitan's kingdom", and utilize the name of Orr to represent this. This shows, to me, that Zhaitan sought to become the dragon king of an eternal nation. * Mordremoth makes several direct mentions of being "this world", while Aerin was caught talking about how he and the voice (aka Mordremoth) would destroy the world, and there's a lot of dialogue about Mordremoth being 'home'. To me, this is Mordremoth wanting to replace the world, to become what sustains life in the world. A necessity for all "living" things under his yoke. * Jormag's mind is touched in Edge of Destiny, but doesn't give much beyond "rage". There's the curious Frozen Portal in Frostgorge Sound, where an icebrood offers the Commander power, and once refused, tries to prove that icebrood are stronger; when the Commander overcomes this challenge, the unseen icebrood subsides and lets the Commander's strength be. Jora and Svanir were given a similar choice; this is an overall theme for Jormag, in fact. An NPC in Frostgorge remarks that unlike other Elder Dragons, Jormag corrupts _converts_ rather than enslaves the unwilling (the Sons of Svanir who channel Jormag's power, however, does enslave the unwilling; Jormag doesn't seem to care). This all shows that Jormag's goal is to establish a world where "survival of the fittest" is law - the strong survive, the weak die, and he doesn't care who the strong are, be they his servants or unrelated to him and his corruption. If you can prove your strength, Jormag lets you be. * Primordus and his destroyers have no dialogue, and their only action is, simply put, destroying things. They seek out life and try to snuff it out, while Primordus creates his minions in insectoid mockeries of living beings. The Great Destroyer, when it rose, was stated to be preparing the way for Primordus by "wiping out all surface life". All this points to Primordus' intention being one thing: complete genocide of the living. * Kralkatorrik's thoughts are heavily depicted in Edge of Destiny. And the central idea behind them is that his mind is that of greed incarnate. He seeks to "own" or "become" everything; to corrupt it into his image, and based on how his weakness works, this basically means turning everything into his own crystalline self (metaphorically). And anything he cannot corrupt, he destroys. Even his children and grandchildren - who have the strongest resistance to his corruption - are not devoid of this wanton desire. Kralkatorrik's goal is to consume and corrupt everything, and destroy what he cannot. And, of course, the DSD is a complete mystery still. Each Elder Dragon is fully sapient, with their own methodology, their own actions, and their own personality which mirrors their domain. Only the undead can "live forever"; plants are a sustenance for all life, even carnivours; coldness freezes the weak, while the strong perseveres through the chill; fire easily destroys just about everything; and Kralkatorrik's crystals share the same resonance, thus becoming like himself. Intentional or not, ArenaNet created this curious mirror between persona, goal, and magical domain/corruption. > @"Anoxia.3850" said: > Follow up question, I know that Glint was trying to take Kralks place, also Aurene is destined to do so. Would they become evil? What is their TRUE purpose. To go back to the original question of "are the Elder Dragons evil" - Yes they are, and the entire purpose of Glint's Legacy is to replace them with non-evil (not necessarily _good_, but not evil) Elder Dragons. There is the saying that power corrupts, but the intention/hope is that by being nurtured to love the mortal races, even with power, they'd seek to protect and not destroy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > Yes, they are evil, and have always been intended to be sapient beings. > ... > > Each Elder Dragon is fully sapient, with their own methodology, their own actions, and their own personality which mirrors their domain. Only the undead can "live forever"; plants are a sustenance for all life, even carnivours; coldness freezes the weak, while the strong perseveres through the chill; fire easily destroys just about everything; and Kralkatorrik's crystals share the same resonance, thus becoming like himself. > > Intentional or not, ArenaNet created this curious mirror between persona, goal, and magical domain/corruption. Many of the dragons are also characterized in a way that is either in opposition to, or a subversion of, the culture of the race they are closest to geographically. Whereas humanity is the "spiritual" race which has the lion's share of ghosts, along with gods and their afterlife domains, Zhaitan offers an endless material existence of flesh and (to some extent) mind, but no "soul" or spark (plus, he squats on their most holy land and desecrates their gods' temples). Like the Sylvari, Mordremoth was the last of the Dragons to awaken, but he got very busy exploring Tyria. Mostly destroying whatever he found. Though, obviously the parallels with Mordremoth and Sylvari have an in-game explanation, as Mordremoth isn't so much a bad version of Sylvari as Sylvari are a better version of Mordrem. Jormag and the Jora/Svanir split in the Norn is obvious enough not to get into much detail over. Primordus and Kraalkatorik, well, the argument breaks down there. I guess you could argue that the nihilistic destruction Primordus represents is somehow in opposition to the all-encompassing, harmonious concept of the Eternal Alchemy, or that Primordus constructs his minions from rock similar to the way golems are built, but it's pretty thin. And I can't really think of any parallels between the greed and ego of Kraalkatorik and the rigid militarism of the Charr, unless Kraalkatorik actually did get Balthazarized. Well, I guess they do both have a tendency to destroy large chunks of terrain with magic that produces giant crystals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starhunter.6015 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: Thanks for clearing up about the eat sleep cycle, the lack of magic really does make more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: >Well, I guess they do both have a tendency to destroy large chunks of terrain with magic that produces giant crystals. But can you count that as a connection between charr and Kralkatorrik when the only crystal-related lore of the charr comes from siphoning magic from Kralkatorrik? It'd be like relating asura and Primordus because the asura found Primordus, thought he was a statue, and built a city next to him. Or relating humans and Zhaitan for the same thing (minus statue). Similar with norn and Drakkar, though rather than building atop they avoided Drakkar as if the lake was cursed (which isn't that far off...). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"perilisk.1874" said: > >Well, I guess they do both have a tendency to destroy large chunks of terrain with magic that produces giant crystals. > > But can you count that as a connection between charr and Kralkatorrik when the only crystal-related lore of the charr comes from siphoning magic from Kralkatorrik? > > It'd be like relating asura and Primordus because the asura found Primordus, thought he was a statue, and built a city next to him. Or relating humans and Zhaitan for the same thing (minus statue). Similar with norn and Drakkar, though rather than building atop they avoided Drakkar as if the lake was cursed (which isn't that far off...). Huh, you learn something new every day. The searing cauldrons were tied to Kraalkatorik's energy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > Huh, you learn something new every day. The searing cauldrons were tied to Kraalkatorik's energy? Not sure if it's been 100% confirmed, but it's been suggested to the point that it's more likely than "sylvari are dragon minions" ever seemed. I suppose they could still do a 180, though. But with the redesign of the Searing Crystals in GW2 to be purple like the brand, the Searing Effigy in CoF having the same purple flames as branded sometimes do, and the lore surrounding how the Flame Legion shamans got the various Searing Cauldrons (got the original Cauldron of Cataclysm from the titans which was "[forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr)", the others were [enchanted by the shamans](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_from_the_Past) and the magic they used is stated to "[predate even the titans](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Explorer_Kindleblight)"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 just because a volcano can think does not make it evil. Were the germanic gods evil? They eradicated the ice giants (not many of them around today). The ice giants would probably think so, we do not. You might think an elder dragon is evil, because it tries to spread its influence, but from the POV of the dragon, he might actually a power of good and the 'victims' just ants under its boots. Do you cry if you step on an ant on your way to the kebab shop? Why should a dragon cry if he steps on some ants/human/charr/asura when he wants to feed? A whale kills tons of krill. Does that make the whale evil? The whale doesn't do any good, does it? Just trying to live, be more powerful than other whales to create more offspring. Evil? Don't think so. There is no absolute morality in this case. You might call them evil. They themselves would probably disagree - or agree to some degree or necessary evil. The human gods helped to drive the charr from Ascalon. Are the human gods evil? I am pretty sure the charr back than would have thought so. The dragons are neither good nor evil. They are necessary to keep the system stable, if they want to or not doesn't matter one bit. They are just a regulatory device in a complex system. They are as much evil as a computer opening a pressure valve to prevent an explosion. Those killed by the escaping steam might think the computer is evil. Or the valve is evil. But they are not. They just fullfill a necessary function to preserve the overall system. The ability to 'think' or being sapient does not matter in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > The dragons are neither good nor evil. They are necessary to keep the system stable, if they want to or not doesn't matter one bit. They are just a regulatory device in a complex system. They are as much evil as a computer opening a pressure valve to prevent an explosion. Those killed by the escaping steam might think the computer is evil. Or the valve is evil. But they are not. They just fullfill a necessary function to preserve the overall system. The ability to 'think' or being sapient does not matter in that regard. Doesn't it? It's one thing for the Order of Shadows to argue that we shouldn't kill Joko until we have a way to replace him. It's another for the Order of Shadows to use that to argue that Joko isn't evil. Whether or not the dragons are evil is a separate question from the consequences of killing them, and very much hinges on their sapience and intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > Huh, you learn something new every day. The searing cauldrons were tied to Kraalkatorik's energy? > > Not sure if it's been 100% confirmed, but it's been suggested to the point that it's more likely than "sylvari are dragon minions" ever seemed. I suppose they could still do a 180, though. > > But with the redesign of the Searing Crystals in GW2 to be purple like the brand, the Searing Effigy in CoF having the same purple flames as branded sometimes do, and the lore surrounding how the Flame Legion shamans got the various Searing Cauldrons (got the original Cauldron of Cataclysm from the titans which was "[forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr)", the others were [enchanted by the shamans](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blast_from_the_Past) and the magic they used is stated to "[predate even the titans](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Explorer_Kindleblight)"). But, on the other hand, ecology of the charr also suggests that some of the gods were in Tyria and hostile to the Charr ages before they ever brought humans to Tyria, plus it's claiming that those sleeping entities literally forged the cauldron (which sounds more like the Great Dwarf than an Elder Dragon, or Balthazar if Ecology is actually right about the gods). And it's bizarre for someone during present day Tyria to speak of "magic that predates the Titans" if they have a suspicion that it's actually dragon magic, since they could just say "dragon magic". Not to mention the Branded and Brandstorms are based on Air magic rather than Fire magic, excluding branded versions of things that naturally have fire attacks like Wyverns -- and the Searing ritual in Orr produced plain ol fire, not some dim purple-y quasi-fire. Bloodstone magic also predates the Titans, and in GW2 acts as a sort of spreading crystalline phenomenon that absorbs ambient magic and corrupts living things. Maybe bloodstones are made from kraalkatorik's blood (I bet Balthazar feels a bit silly going after scions now), or maybe it's just Arenanet sometimes recycles motifs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > just because a volcano can think does not make it evil. Were the germanic gods evil? They eradicated the ice giants (not many of them around today). The ice giants would probably think so, we do not. In your example, the ice giants were, in large, an evil race. In many depictions at least. But you're right, just because a volcano can think doesn't make it evil. And the same goes for the Elder Dragons. It is the fact that they **intentionally target others with malicious acts**, fully aware of the consequences of their actions, that makes them evil. > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > You might think an elder dragon is evil, because it tries to spread its influence, but from the POV of the dragon, he might actually a power of good and the 'victims' just ants under its boots. Do you cry if you step on an ant on your way to the kebab shop? Why should a dragon cry if he steps on some ants/human/charr/asura when he wants to feed? A whale kills tons of krill. Does that make the whale evil? The whale doesn't do any good, does it? Just trying to live, be more powerful than other whales to create more offspring. Evil? Don't think so. There is a difference between killing for survival, like that whale; killing out of ignorance, like most folks stepping on ants; and killing out of malice. The Elder Dragons, as proven by Kralkatorrik in Edge of Destiny, Jormag in Frostgorge Sound events, dialogue, and hero challenges, and by Mordremoth in Heart of Thorns, do not treat mortals as mere ants they happen to unsuspectedly step on. Nor do they need to corrupt entire civilizations to feed like a whale eating krill. > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > The human gods helped to drive the charr from Ascalon. Are the human gods evil? I am pretty sure the charr back than would have thought so. The charr are also conquerers. Though I'd argue that humans were also conquerers at the time, and neither can be defined as good, but both with hints of black in their gray. But your argument would be proclaiming groups like the German Nazis to "not be evil". Sure, they didn't view themselves as evil, per se, but that doesn't mean they're not so. > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said: > The dragons are neither good nor evil. They are necessary to keep the system stable, if they want to or not doesn't matter one bit. They are just a regulatory device in a complex system. They are as much evil as a computer opening a pressure valve to prevent an explosion. Those killed by the escaping steam might think the computer is evil. Or the valve is evil. But they are not. They just fullfill a necessary function to preserve the overall system. The ability to 'think' or being sapient does not matter in that regard. False. The *positions they hold* are necessary, but the individuals, and their actions of corrupting individuals and destroying civilizations, are not necessary. The Pale Tree and Glint are two prime examples of the Elder Dragons' influence that isn't evil. They are just as sapient as the Elder Dragons, and though not as powerful, they are still holders of the same magic and capabilities as the Elder Dragons, just as any other dragon minion is. Yet neither one corrupts nor destroys their neighbors. And I would argue your computer example is a false equivalent. The computer is acting to prevent an explosion that, in such a situation, would likely cause far, far more harm and deaths than the few maimed and killed by the escaping steam. Most likely, the explosion would kill those harmed by the steam anyways. However, the Elder Dragons, while they may be **unintentionally** saving Tyria, have no interest in saving the world or its inhabitants. They are killing indiscriminately for their own selfish and often destructive desires. That is what makes the Elder Dragons evil. Maliciously harming others for the sake of the self. Your computer is not acting out of malice, but calculations of fulfilling "the good of the many over the needs of the few", and it is not acting for itself but for others. > @"perilisk.1874" said: > But, on the other hand, ecology of the charr also suggests that some of the gods were in Tyria and hostile to the Charr ages before they ever brought humans to Tyria, plus it's claiming that those sleeping entities literally forged the cauldron (which sounds more like the Great Dwarf than an Elder Dragon, or Balthazar if Ecology is actually right about the gods). The Ecology of the Charr only states that there are legends about Melandru creating the world. Not much about them being around before humans (and besides, there were 300 years or so between humans being on the world and humans spreading through continental Tyria, so any "gods were around before charr interactions with humans" could be from that time period). > @"perilisk.1874" said: > And it's bizarre for someone during present day Tyria to speak of "magic that predates the Titans" if they have a suspicion that it's actually dragon magic, since they could just say "dragon magic". It's painted as the Priory charr not really knowing the origin of the Searing crystals. > @"perilisk.1874" said: > Not to mention the Branded and Brandstorms are based on Air magic rather than Fire magic, excluding branded versions of things that naturally have fire attacks like Wyverns -- and the Searing ritual in Orr produced plain ol fire, not some dim purple-y quasi-fire. There's actually quite a number of fire involved with the Branded, Dragonbrand, Kralkatorrik, etc. For example, in the novel Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik created the Dragonbrand by breathing a golden gale of fire. When we see crystals falling from the sky in the Dragonbrand (and in Istan), such as when launched by the Shatterer in Blazeridge Steppes, they're surrounded by fire. On top of that, Glint's Zephyrite skills deal with the wind, lightning, and *sun*. Furthermore, there was lightning during the Searing - more so than fire, really, which just encircled the crystals. > @"perilisk.1874" said: > Bloodstone magic also predates the Titans, and in GW2 acts as a sort of spreading crystalline phenomenon that absorbs ambient magic and corrupts living things. Maybe bloodstones are made from kraalkatorik's blood (I bet Balthazar feels a bit silly going after scions now), or maybe it's just Arenanet sometimes recycles motifs. I wouldn't be so sure. The titans are repeatedly stated to be as old as the Forgotten in Nightfall, and in GW1, the Ancient Seer does say that the titans did not change "over the eons", suggesting that the titans were present in some capacity before the Seers' fall to the mursaat, which would place them as predating the Bloodstone - both origin stories of it, the false one and the true one. As for the Bloodstones coming from Kralkatorrik - unlikely. In "A Study in Gold" tablets, it is stated that the seers used "divine resources" to make the Bloodstone. Divine resources have, time and time again, shown to be counteractive to the Elder Dragons. It would also seem weird to house magic in dragon corruption, when the goal was to keep it away from such... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > I wouldn't be so sure. The titans are repeatedly stated to be as old as the Forgotten in Nightfall, and in GW1, the Ancient Seer does say that the titans did not change "over the eons", suggesting that the titans were present in some capacity before the Seers' fall to the mursaat, which would place them as predating the Bloodstone - both origin stories of it, the false one and the true one. The relationship between forgotten, titans, gods, and humans is all pretty murky. It all seems to come down to souls, and it's _souls_ that seem the most resistant to dragon corruption. I'm starting to wonder if the forgotten found human souls (from Elsewhere) in the mists, and somehow discovered the energy they contained was a powerful weapon against draconic corruption. If they used them to develop Exalted and ascension rituals, then the gods could just be created as an advanced evolution of that science, with the purified dragon minions being an even later development, beings of both material and spiritual magic. The fact that the forgotten needed humans suggest that they themselves lack this spark (though humans ghostify far more than other races, regardless). It also suggests the gods may have initially brought humans to Tyria at the direction of the forgotten -- not for the glory of humanity or to save them from some calamity, but to ensure that Tyria and the mists surrounding Tyria were filled with an abundance of human souls to be used in the inevitable war against the dragons, or candidates to become exalted, or to people to empower the gods with their prayers, or something along those lines. Titans, like Forged, would just be a perversion of the same magic/science that created the exalted, as would bloodstones, soul batteries, and the eye of janthir. It's an ugly theory, but would explain some things. > As for the Bloodstones coming from Kralkatorrik - unlikely. In "A Study in Gold" tablets, it is stated that the seers used "divine resources" to make the Bloodstone. Divine resources have, time and time again, shown to be counteractive to the Elder Dragons. It would also seem weird to house magic in dragon corruption, when the goal was to keep it away from such... Didn't mean it as a serious suggestion (because it really would make the PoF plot ridiculous), just showing that you can have some resemblance to dragon magic without it necessarily being dragon magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence : -Zhaitan is death and stillness, time is slowed in his presence and his minions are "preserved" more than any other dragons in the sense that we deal with particularly ancient monsters still able to speak and remember their lives. His human god penchant is currently Grenth, and used to be Dhuum. -Mordremoth, his polar opposite is life, and evolution, constantly expanding and growing, with his minions mutating more than any other dragon minions. His human god penchant is Melandru, whom while she did not have a particular emphasis on the mind, is still represented as having a particularly strong control over nature. -Jormag is order, his preference for domination seems to only extend to humanoids, particularly the Norn, mirroring Dwayna's favor of Humans, as the goddess who brought them forward. -Primordus represent well... primal influences for lack of better word, as Jormag opposite, he seems to benefit from Chaos, as his destroyers seems to Simply run rampant and fulfill their destructive purpose. His human god reflection is Balthazar, whose sphere is war, and at his worse, carnage. His attack on Elona is only more methodical, but the destruction is very much the same. -Kralkatorik is a bit more complex, Konig above posted that he represent Greed, I'd tend to agree, but more specifically say his emphasis is on Envy. He doesn't seem to have a particularly destructive mindset, it just so happen that he is a living wasteland, and whatever grounds he move toward is irremediably corrupted. His "brand" (ha) of corruption Is rather energetic and flamboyant, but is not wild. He seems to be mirrored most by Lyssa, who is as resplendant, and yet just as vain as the dragon (The fact that her artifact is a mirror is probably not a random occurrence). -Then we have the Deep Sea Dragon, like his name implies hiding deeper in the sea, whom we know almost Nothing about. And strangely enough, while it does not exactly fit Kormir, it certainly fits her predecessor Abbadon, the god of Secrets. Kormir herself, as well as Grenth both are good example of how Gods, while extremely potent are not exactly Omnipotent. They can be replaced, in the sense that their sphere of influence and dominion can pass onto another, much like how when an Elder Dragon is slain, their Energy can be claimed by a substitute. From my understanding, Dragons represent the chaotic and wild Energy of the world, and Gods represent those same energies, but tamed (as dragons are asleep). When the dragons rise, the gods disappear, or are replaced by gods more aligned with Dragon mindsets. Kormir was forced to abandon her Library, but surprise, Abbadon minions started to take it over. Similarly Grenth influence waned, and Dhuum started to reappear and stir the Underworld. It's Worth noting that Balthazaar was in chains in the Mist while Primordus was waking up, and that he was rather weak until Primordus was forcibly put to sleep. When he was put to sleep, Balthazar was free to rampage Elona. It's currently unknown what effect the assimilation of Balthazar's magic by Aurene and Kralkatorik will have on Primordus, but I suspect he'll rise again soon. To make a long explanation shorter, the dragons are part of a dichotomy of Energy Balance. While they sleep, the gods rule, and magic is contained. While they wake, the gods are forced out, and magic goes rampant. The destruction of the world as seen in Omadd's machine is metaphorical in the sense that an unbalanced world would be torn apart by magic phenomenons (as it currently is, by Ley Line anomalies, but on a much larger and more destructive scale). The Energy they contain, and their sphere of influence is permanent. Thus Killing the Dragon of Death, or the God of Death does not disrupt Deadly energies, they're simply transfered to a suitable host that can contain them. The balance is essentially trying to preserve itself by staying inside the circuit. What changes is the number of nodes that constitute said circuit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Naxos.2503" said: > The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence : People have tried to do this for so long, with it always pattering out before you can get halfway, that ArenaNet eventually put it and its incapability of making a complete connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons [into the game](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragons_and_Gods). And last year, we got a direct, undeniable, debunk of that theory: > @"Jessica Price.1649" said: > Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601 Sorry, but that explanation has been thoroughly and fully denied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > The relationship between forgotten, titans, gods, and humans is all pretty murky. It all seems to come down to souls, and it's _souls_ that seem the most resistant to dragon corruption. I'm starting to wonder if the forgotten found human souls (from Elsewhere) in the mists, and somehow discovered the energy they contained was a powerful weapon against draconic corruption. If they used them to develop Exalted and ascension rituals, then the gods could just be created as an advanced evolution of that science, with the purified dragon minions being an even later development, beings of both material and spiritual magic. The fact that the forgotten needed humans suggest that they themselves lack this spark (though humans ghostify far more than other races, regardless). > > It also suggests the gods may have initially brought humans to Tyria at the direction of the forgotten -- not for the glory of humanity or to save them from some calamity, but to ensure that Tyria and the mists surrounding Tyria were filled with an abundance of human souls to be used in the inevitable war against the dragons, or candidates to become exalted, or to people to empower the gods with their prayers, or something along those lines. Titans, like Forged, would just be a perversion of the same magic/science that created the exalted, as would bloodstones, soul batteries, and the eye of janthir. It's an ugly theory, but would explain some things. Neither the Forgotten nor the Six Gods are native to Tyria - this is 100% confirmed and **not** murky at all. And everything we know suggests that they came from the same world that humanity did. The titans' origins aren't very murky either, as they're formed from tormented souls (with The Fury knowing a ritual to make them efficiently); Gorseval is likely a "naturally made" titan, all things considered. I would disagree that souls are most resistant to dragon corruption, for two reasons. Firstly, Zhaitan trapped souls in his most powerful risen; Jormag supposedly does the same, and (secondly) I recall reading that Jormag corrupts the soul. Given that Jormag is capable of consuming the Spirits of the Wild like he did Owl and planned to for Minotaur, it wouldn't be surprising. Besides that, why would a human soul be any different from, say, a charr soul, or a norn soul, or a kodan soul, or a mursaat or seer or dwarf soul? By all indication, there is no difference between a human soul and souls of other races. Even in the Domain of the Lost, we see no difference. On top of that, the Gods' magic has nothing to do with souls. Yet we see Divine Fire fear mordrem away in Season 2, and kill the supposedly unkillable Shadow of the Dragon; we see Kormir's protection prevent branding in Season 4; we see Balthazar, a mere former god, wade through an army of destroyers and stand in front of an Elder Dragon without any hindrance or his magic being consumed. And the Bloodstones weren't made by Forgotten or the Six, but by the Seers, who had no (known) dealing with the Six or humanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristalyan.5728 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Good or evil cannot exist independently. Something is **good** in relation with other thing. The same for **evil**. Pure **good** or pure **evil** are the attributes of gods (true gods). Unfortunately what the tyrians call "gods" are far from this. That means (in my opinion) that the dragons are not good nor evil. They **are**. The actions of the dragons are **good** for them. Being sentient intelligent beings, I cannot think they act against their own. On the other hand the actions of the dragons are **evil** for the other magic users. This making them to call the dragons as **evil**. I don't think the dragons are evil for birds / wild animals / low level life forms. They gather the magic. And the beings using magic suddenly started to call them **evil**. Let's see: The dragons are native from Tyria (some scholars think that even from the beginning of Tyria). The way they act is unchanged for eons. No matter what their own motivations are, this was the way the life (and the Tyria) evolved. Some races appeared and perished. Some races found shelter into the mist (the Mursaat). Some races still exists but regressed to the primitive state. No matter what happened, this was the way of Tyria from the very beginning. But now the humans arrived (intruders/foreigners from Tyria). And because the dragon actions are not on their liking, the dragons have now the label of **evil**. And the humans (as part of the Pact) tries now to change the way of the world. They are aware now that this way of action will eventually destroy Tyria. And still they consider themselves **good** and still the dragons are **evil**. WHAT? As we know (or as the ANet lore writers stated) the "gods" are not native from Tyria. They are also invaders / foreign insertion. If the statement is true, then no relation exists between the influence spheres of the dragons and the domains of the gods. Any resemblance is purely a result of the hazard. To summarize: - We have now a bunch of beings named gods who have no valid attribute for being gods (They are only powerful. But they also are mortal, unwise, cowards). And still ANet insists that this is a valid image of a god. And the "gods" (and theirs children - the humans) are considered **good**. - On the other hand we have the Elder Dragons. Ancient beings, existing from the very beginning of Tyria, true forces of nature, insanely powerful, keeping the Tyria in existence. They are called **evil**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbru.6014 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Good is what favors your side and victory on your terms. Evil is whatever opposes you. You see yourself as superior, and your goals justify themselves in the light of your own ego. If others want to call that evil from their viewpoint, then so be it. Real villains of history often had some awareness of how others perceived their "evil" and took care to manage that perception to their advantage. To give an example from the game, of Mad King Thorn actually isn't "mad" at all. He is certainly narcissistic, sociopathic, and psychotic. But he isn't mentally disconnected from reality; he knows exactly what he did and is doing and how it's perceived by others, and he revels in it. Others call him mad and evil, and he's happy to embrace those titles and use the fear inherent in them as a tool of power. In probable truth, he and Joko didn't get along simply because they were so much alike. But Joko was more politically astute in how he manipulated "history" and Elonian culture to make his subjects think he was "good", while Thorn got torches and pitchforks when his subjects finally got fed up. Thinking in terms of historic parallels, Thorn was Caligula; Joko was Stalin. Relating that to the Elder Dragons, they have goals which are actively inimical to pretty much all other life on Tyria. To their targets and victims, they are evil. But to them as figurative forces of nature, their goals as justified simply by their own existence. They would probably call us evil for standing in their way, if they cared about such petty moral perceptions at all. Which to our perception, that impersonal amorality is possibly the greatest evil of all; to do what you do for its own sake, and simply not care. To steal a line from Jarvis, some beings just want to watch the world burn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbru.6014 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 Regarding the human gods, there is much still left unanswered in the lore, but it's become pretty obvious since the content reveals of PoF that #1 the human gods aren't all they're cracked up to be, and #2 there are still many questions left unanswered. - Balthazar had a half-brother, Menzies. Who were their parents? Orrian scrolls mention Balthazar having a father without naming him. Were they gods all along, or mortals who grew to godhood in some manner? Are all the gods like that? - Several, if not all of the gods, had predecessors in their positions, and in all known cases those successions came about by defeat and assumption of power. Kormir was a mortal became a goddess by defeating Abbadon, who succeeded the semi-mythical "Arachnia" in some manner before coming to Tyria as a god. Grenth was a half-god, son of Dwayna and Malchor, who defeated and succeeded Dhuum. It has been implied that Balthazar took his power from some older pre-Tyrian deity. So clearly, there is much more to the gods' history than we know, and much less to their apparent position relative to the Elder Dragons. Though their inability to defeat the Elder Dragons is likely more a matter of circumstance than power. The gods are probably powerful enough to kill the Elder Dragons (after all, we mere mortals killed two) but the Elder Dragons hold the "fail deadly" trump card of being inherently tied to Tyria's magic, so their deaths would destroy Tyria. Like a terrorist holding a grenade; you could shoot him, but then he would drop the grenade. Damned if you do, damned if you don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Naxos.2503" said: > > The elder dragons are tied to the human gods in my opinion, as the humans gods are themselves tied to the natural cycle. The dragons represent the untamed raw Energy of the world, they each represent a different aspect or core principle of existence : > > People have tried to do this for so long, with it always pattering out before you can get halfway, that ArenaNet eventually put it and its incapability of making a complete connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons [into the game](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragons_and_Gods). And last year, we got a direct, undeniable, debunk of that theory: > > > @"Jessica Price.1649" said: > > Elder Dragons are native to Tyria, and the human gods are from elsewhere, so as far as them being related: no. > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494601/#Comment_494601 > > Sorry, but that explanation has been thoroughly and fully denied. While they may be from elsewhere, it doesn't necessarily means they are not tied to the energies themselves though, that was essentially what I pointed out. As was shown in Path of Fire, god and dragon energies can mix, meaning they can tap within the same pool of Energy. They are tied to the world, just as the dragons are, so much so that when Gods influence wane over certain dominions, the place is not destroyed, but Simply "changes hands", much like how the dragons Energy do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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