Thoughts - Post Season 14 - From Different Class Perspectives

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"TorQ.7041" said:

> > @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> > Nice idea, let me contribute a bit.

> >

> > Talking mainly from a weaver's perspective here. I rarely switched to troll classes, most of my serious games were on a condi weaver variant using sage's amulet and different runes. It is still designed as a side node bunker, but with more damage and less sustain.

> >

> > **Warrior:**

> > I still feel like the nerfs addressed the wrong issues. I found the damage of demo spellbreaker to be okayish - the sustain for such an amulet was too much. They should have made the passive heals scale a lot more with healing power, so warriors could either go for serious damage/+1 role with demo or bunker with mender or paladin.

> > It is usually a longer fight. Depending on skill, CDs available or luck, warrior either kills me with rampage (lol) or I drive him off point, but it is a long and boring fight. I wish they would allow them those two roles dcescribed above though.

> >

> > **Herald:**

> > Dangerous +1 build, since weaver still is vulnerable to power bursts. It is very dangerous and usually not killable as long as he doesn't overextend and stays in range for condis to kill him. Also impossible to run away when he +1s. Healthy spot from weaver's perspective.

> >

> > **Guard:**

> > Firebrand is absolutely unkillable and negates my influence in team fights significantly. Weaver has almost no cover conditions, so he effectively shuts down a lot of my damage. Unkillable in duels, even the few duelist variants running around.

> > Core guard is kinda the same like rev/herald. Dangerous +1 role, which is healthy. They last a lot longer in duels, but assuming same skill level, I drive them away eventually. They have so many cleanses...

> > But all in all, okayish.

> >

> > **Ranger:**

> > Boonbeast is the bane of my build. I can not kill them, I can only try to survive and stalemate. They can save their CDs for a +1, I have to use lots of them to survive. Awful. It does everything I do but _a lot_ better.

> > Drooids are just stalemates, power soulbeasts powerful +1s. I haven't seen many of either of them though.

> >

> > **Holosmith:**

> > I feel like they are in a good spot. Might be different for other classes. They usually can't outsustain me on points, because they lack cleanses, but they have a lot bigger effect on many other fights - being able to +1, team fight and roam. Deleting the auto elixir S was great - now they have one less out of jail card against +1s.

> > Sidenote: On my zerker chrono troll build, holo used to be really tough, because they could survive and resustain several times. Without the elixir, I could finally +1 them properly, which is great.

> >

> > **Thief:**

> > Daredevil is awful to play against, assuming equal skill level (and CDs, situation etc.), they always drive me off point when they +1, immediately. No way to punish them, because of range, stealth and lack of proper AoEs.

> > Other thieves actually kinda lack sustain indeed. D/P or core thieves usually can't down me in a +1 immediately, and at the same time they can hardly contribute to DPS me down before they have to start to disengage because of conditions. That might be because they expect mender weavers and are surprised, but those are +1s I often survive and resustain before they cap a point.

> > Deadeye should be changed, the damage is good, but they should become punishable. I think the nerfs were (once again) not goind in the right direction, they should not have changed the power but the disengage capabilities. Other builds should have be looked at sustained damage for +1s, not necessarily burst.

> >

> > **Necromancer:**

> > Scourge is usually extremely tough to kill, especially in team fights. The cleanses are enough for a weaver, the barriers and stuff... in duel scenarios I wear them down eventually, but it usually takes too long to be of good use. Hoeever, they are team fighters and as such I feel in a good spot.

> > Reaper has the same role like rev or core guard for me. +1 power damage, very dangerous, usually drives me off point immediately. It is countered though by several other builds, so I think it is okay.

> >

> > **Mesmer:**

> > Condi mirage is still awful. Due to my higher damage but less sustain, it often does not end up in a stalemate, but in a long and boring fight, where I don't have opportunities to counter attack. I decap, then the point stays neutral.

> > Power variants are the usual dangerous power +1 role. But more easily punishable than DE, while the bursts are more dangerous.

> >

> > **Elementalist:**

> > Tempests basically don't exist, bunker weavers re stalemates, FA weavers - those few still playing - are tough, but they lack the sustained burst of the other power +1s when counter pressured. I still would like to the the damage nerfs revoked and other changes like FA having an internal CD of 1s tried. Well...

> >

> > **Conclusion:**

> > Due to nerfs to other classes (except boonbeast lol), weaver indeed is in a better spot. I usually win most of my duels except soulbeast and most mirages. I also feel like condi weaver is how condi builds should be - slowly applying the damage, wearing the opponent down. However, it is still extremely vulnerable when caught off guard, with no escape CDs left (which have a long CD, RtL 15/30s, LF 40s or ToF 50s).

> >

> > **My wishes are:**

> > Reduce condi application by condi mirage and scourge, at the same time reduce cleanses from firebrand - and also from weaver. This way, conditions are not as extremely punishing for builds not having massed cleanses (or block, invulns, etc.), but also condi build variety would increase. Not talking about condi thief, but ranger, engi, even burn guards...

> >

> > Also, nerf boonbeast spam. Adjust/slightly buff warriors, thief. With this, I think there would be few changes necessary for weaver (except those small range increases I have been asking for a year now...).

> >

> > As I said, everything from my weaver's perspective.

>

> You should play deadeye to understand that the stealth disengage is necessary. I tired to play with out slient scope. Nopenope nope. u r basically instantly dead 9/10 since u die in 2 hits It's lacks the evades, blocks, invis or boon protection every one else has that are often built into their weapon set. Guardian focus 5, mesmer sword 2 ranger gs block etc etc

>

> Basically if they can target u and u burn your 2 dodges u r dead. Sure you can switch ur set to s/d or d/p but you don't have the DD traits or the acrobatics to keep you alive.

>

> I am in favor of removing slient scope if they gave it some other form of sustain. Such as removing cast time on skill 4 to teleport and removing 1 int from it. This means that a DE can't attack if it decides to leave . Either that or keep it as it is and allow it to decide where to teleport and add cost.

>

> Change shadow meld into 3 casts and increae cool down. So there is some way of disengage but the DE has to know when to use it and if he spams it he's dead.

>

> And or when dodging a DE is detargeted but not stealthed.

>

> These are just ideas that came up. May not be great... But still something needs to be done if scope is removed. Because simply DE just doesn't work with out it.

>

 

I wanted to focus on the current state. There are - for thief, mesmer, ele and others - quite a lot of useful and constructive solutione to the current state. I know deadeye and know it needs stealth in its current state - but as you said, they should _change_ that. It is not even that it's OP, it is just awful to play around because especially weaver lacks any real kind of counter pressure possibility.

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Megametzler.5729"

 

I find that DE is broken in a very special kind of way. Some classes/builds possess all the mechanics they need to deal with the DE, such to the point that the DE can't really do anything to that player and must avoid it the entire match. Then other classes/builds possess none of the mechanics they need to deal with the DE at all. This leads to the DE completely avoiding bad match ups, and essentially following around and spawn camping the classes/builds that have no mechanics to deal with him. <- That right there is what pisses people off about DE and makes it feel questionable within the game's intra-class dynamic. I mean a player could still be winning his match, but still be getting pop killed by the DE that entire match because he's on a Scourge. That's a no fun kind of situation.

 

I know a lot about this because last season "S14" I had duo'd all season with a great DE. What we would do is, I would play sort of "short stop" between home and mid, defend home as priority and poke at mid when advantageous, trying to draw 1v2 situations. Then what he would do is very specifically avoid anything dangerous and only target things that he knows he can nuke in 1-2s, that can't deal with him at all. It would often lead to situations where he had 2 players spawn camped, that could not leave their spawn without waiting for a regroup. This is because their class/build can't play around something that is perma stealthed that lands completely unpredictable 1-shot bursts, because their class/build has no mechanics to do so. Then when the enemy team figures out what's going on, the only way to bring their DE camped players back into rotation is to go send a player or two over there, that can actually deal with the DE. All leading to us forcing 3 to 4 players to hover near their spawn, so they can even get their players back into rotation. That's just actually kind of abusive mechanics on the DEs part, it's a bit too powerful rotationally, and very questionable as to if it is healthy for conquest dynamic.

 

Now notice that I said DE was broken, I did not say it was OP. The problem here is that it counters its counters too hard, and it gets countered by its counters too hard. After dueling his DE multiple multiple times for the sake of practice during S14, I have a handful of suggestions to flatten out the parameters of DE's good match ups & bad match ups:

* The things that currently have no mechanics at all in anyway to deal with DE, need new abilities tagged onto old abilities that are at least capable of revealing the DE for a couple seconds in some way. I had thought that in the case of Ele as example, they could have a passive reveal after using some skill "Next incoming attack reveals the attacker." It needs it.

* Things that counter DE too hard all share 3 things in common: 1) Reveal, 2) High DPS Bursts, 3) Lots of CC. Honestly, DE needs a liiiittle bit more self sustain to be able to survive these kinds of bad situations.

 

The point of the above suggestions is that if the DE had more trouble staying stealthed vs. the things that he counters so hard, and if he didn't immediately lose to other things when being blind sided by the first CC, it would diminish that effect where the DE is pigeonholed into following the same 1 or 2 players around an repeatedly killing them over and over. <- Again, THAT is what people are complaining about. It isn't that the DE is trolling you, it's just what he has to do to win the match. But yeah it feels bad in the flow of the game to incur the targeting of the good DE on the other team. If the DE had more reasons to avoid a Scourge as example, because it was no longer a free kill, and if he had more reasons to believe he had a chance to win while engaging some Warrior build, the DE could then freely play the map and focus rotationally instead of purely off "what is he able to kill the easiest and keep in respawn" <- That is what pisses people off, I just really want to point that out.

 

Hope Arenanet reads this one, because this is a spot on explanation of what people mean when they say: "I dunno it just feels bad to play against."

 

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> (...)

> I know a lot about this because last season "S14" I had duo'd all season with a great DE. What we would do is, I would play sort of "short stop" between home and mid, defend home as priority and poke at mid when advantageous, trying to draw 1v2 situations. Then what he would do is very specifically avoid anything dangerous and only target things that he knows he can nuke in 1-2s, that can't deal with him at all. It would often lead to situations where he had 2 players spawn camped, that could not leave their spawn without waiting for a regroup. This is because their class/build can't play around something that is perma stealthed that lands completely unpredictable 1-shot bursts, because their class/build has no mechanics to do so. Then when the enemy team figures out what's going on, the only way to bring their DE camped players back into rotation is to go send a player or two over there, that can actually deal with the DE. All leading to us forcing 3 to 4 players to hover near their spawn, so they can even get their players back into rotation. That's just actually kind of abusive mechanics on the DEs part, it's a bit too powerful rotationally, and very questionable as to if it is healthy for conquest dynamic.

> (...)

 

I never saw that except there was a huge skill imbalance between the players.

 

However, I do agree with the things DE's counters need to have to be able to deal with it. Teleport, CC, AoE. I do not think reveal helps that much, but occasionally it doesn of course. It would also not help ele, because DE's ability to get rid of reveal is too easy and S/D eles do not have the means to kill him in that time. But I can always decap a point easily and sometimes cap it (if I exhaust myself and know I will not get +1ed). I just never can jump on him after he burned his bursts and can keep shooting without any risk.

 

If they changed the doidge on rifle for stealth skill to, say, get stealth after weapon swap after dodging with rifle. So they would have their burst from stealth, but if they missed it, they could not reset it too easily and quickly but had to swap to their presumeably more defensive weapon set. Would that be a good solution or too weak? This way they could equip SB on second spot and use stealth+SB5 as a quick disengage tool without being able to immediately reburst.

 

Would be curious for some DE player's (not too biased) opinion.