Frodak Steelstar and the Elder Dragon threat

[Kovac.4372]

So I spent too much time right now pestering people in map chat with something I believe to be a continuity error between GW1 and the latest living world episode.

 

**NO SPOILERS ABOUT THE LIVING WORLD EPISODE _STORY_ IN THIS THREAD**

 

It has to do with us meeting [Frodak Steelstar](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frodak_Steelstar "https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frodak_Steelstar"), a ghost of a dwarf who has apparently been crafting dragon slaying weapons back in his living days. I found out he was even [alive](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consular_Frodak_Steelstar "https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Consular_Frodak_Steelstar") during our GW1 adventures, as well as a member of the Brotherhood of the Dragon. In short, this last means he hanged out with Glint.

 

Since I distinctly remember the dwarves getting all worked up and eager to fight the Great Destroyer, even as far as casually NOT pointing fingers at the huge statue that is a sleeping Primordus - I therefore ask myself the following:

 

1) How does that dwarf all of a sudden turn out to have known about the elder dragon threat all along, even as far as crafting specialized killing weapons, making molds and all - while apparently not knowing a thing about the elder dragons during the Eye of the North campaign?

 

2) If he knew, or if dwarves in generally knew, why getting all worked up with the Great Destroyer when he was just a general of the Primordus just sitting there being ignored?

 

Am I making sense?

 

Am I missing something?

 

I'd argue that it makes no sense that dwarves would behave the way we saw them behave in GW1 IF they knew about the elder dragon threat ... therefore I'd assume they didn't, and therefore having a GW2 dwarf ghost now acting all expert-like is just ... fan-fiction ...

 

But as people in map chat said dwarves DID know about the elder dragons (one even saying they went against Primordus) and that I don't know my GW1 ... I figured I'd ask here how you feel?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

250 years are a long time? maybe he did this stuff after you walked away? dunno, never played gw1, just installed it recently..

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Kovac.4372" said:

> 1) How does that dwarf all of a sudden turn out to have known about the elder dragon threat all along, even as far as crafting specialized killing weapons, making molds and all - while apparently not knowing a thing about the elder dragons during the Eye of the North campaign?

>

> 2) If he knew, or if dwarves in generally knew, why getting all worked up with the Great Destroyer when he was just a general of the Primordus just sitting there being ignored?

>

> Am I making sense?

>

> Am I missing something?

>

> I'd argue that it makes no sense that dwarves would behave the way we saw them behave in GW1 IF they knew about the elder dragon threat ... therefore I'd assume they didn't, and therefore having a GW2 dwarf ghost now acting all expert-like is just ... fan-fiction ...

>

> But as people in map chat said dwarves DID know about the elder dragons (one even saying they went against Primordus) and that I don't know my GW1 ... I figured I'd ask here how you feel?

 

So a few things. Firstly, during the time of GW1, knowledge of the Elder Dragons was ancient and forgotten. No one remembered them, not even the Brotherhood of the Dragon. This is because their oldest lore that mentions them, such as the Tome of Rubicon, [were believed cursed,](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Unspeakable,_Unknowable) that reading the texts would bring about the end times, the return of the Great Destroyer (who was believed to be not a general of an Elder Dragon, but the antithesis of their god, the Great Dwarf) and the end of the dwarves. So the dwarves had collectively forgotten about their old plight as the knowledge was sealed away and not taught in whatever school-like system the dwarves had. And they did so under the belief that spreading the knowledge of the Elder Dragons would bring their return (eventually devolving into the Great Destroyer's return if his true name was read). It ended up happening anyways, of course. Whether one wants to blame the fact that [apparently the Tome was read during Nightfall](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Discourse_on_a_Tome_%281075_A.E.%29), or as Kormir says, Primordus stirring (thus causing the Great Destroyer to rise) due to Abaddon's death, is your choice. The latter seems more reasonable.

 

It should be stressed that the reason they didn't bother going after Primordus but focused on its general is because they didn't believe the Great Destroyer, the antithesis of their god, the culmination of all things evil in dwarven view, could possibly be a lesser to another being. The Great Destroyer was viewed by the dwarves as Satan is viewed as by Christians - the ultimate evil who has no superior in evilness.

 

This view, obviously, was wrong.

 

It should also be stressed that the forging of the Dragonsblood Spear and the dwarven knowledge of the Elder Dragons came about after the events of Eye of the North. During this time, the dwarves were a declining race, slowly dying or undergoing the Rite to chase destroyers into the Depths. As the uncovered more of their forbidden texts, and Glint shared more knowledge in their dying days, the collective consciousness of the Stone Dwarves would no doubt have gained this knowledge, leading to them fighting Primordus when it woke up finally.

 

The dwarven race died within 50 years after Eye of the North, and during that time is when the forge built, the Dragonsblood spear crafted, and their legacy passed on to the Zephyrites.

 

If you note during the visions in Champion and Scion instance, we see Frodak forging the spear, and he is the only dwarf. Those around him are Zephyrites. The spear was forged in the race's last breaths, and for all we know, Frodak was the last non-stone Brotherhood of the Dragon still living.

 

Obviously the last of the dwarves were the generation(s) we knew - they live for over a century, Jalis being ~130 years during GW1 and not exactly hinted to have a child or needing one should he die soon of old age - so all post-EotN preparations done, and we know they did a few things even before this episode came to pass, would be done by those alive during GW1.

[perilisk.1874]

IIRC, there was a book (discovered and translated by the dwarves well into the events of the game) describing a battle between The Great Dwarf and The Destroyer in ancient times, in which the Destroyer was sealed away. There was a prophecy suggesting that it would one day awaken and cause the doom of the dwarves. And then the destroyers started attacking in the depths of Tyria... The death of the Great Destroyer delayed Primordus' awakening, but not indefinitely.

 

Most likely the book was based on the events of the previous dragon cycle (the dwarves were around), and may have been mistranslated -- for all we know, the Great Destroyer was actually Primordus. It's not like it introduced itself.

 

Anyway, Frodak appears to not be stone, so maybe he didn't get caught up in all that, and just stuck with Glint and whoever was left of the Brotherhood. They probably knew more about the situation than other dwarves (just like the Zephyrites know more than other humans), but even then, we can't be sure that she explained what the spear was for.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> IIRC, there was a book (discovered and translated by the dwarves well into the events of the game) describing a battle between The Great Dwarf and The Destroyer in ancient times, in which the Destroyer was sealed away. There was a prophecy suggesting that it would one day awaken and cause the doom of the dwarves. And then the destroyers started attacking in the depths of Tyria... The death of the Great Destroyer delayed Primordus' awakening, but not indefinitely.

You might be (very slightly) misremembering the link I provided from Prophecies, the quest Unspeakable, Unknowable, in which we first learn about the Great Destroyer:

 

High Priest Alkar: "Long ago, the Great Dwarf took from his greatest foe the one thing that give him his power...he took from him his name, sealing it away until the time of their final battle."

High Priest Alkar: "To ensure the name was unspeakable to all but the Great Dwarf, the name was sealed within the Rubicon. There are few left with the knowledge and power to open the Tome."

High Priest Alkar: "If the true name of either is spoken aloud, it would mean the end of the world as we know it. We must not allow that which is unknown to again become known. Not now."

 

Then, in a twist of ironies and typical storytelling idiocy...

 

"Long have I studied the Tome of Rubicon and the lore of the Great Destroyer. Never did I expect to see the Great Destroyer in my lifetime."

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/High_Priest_Alkar

 

"I know more of the Tome of Rubicon than any of my predecessors, and have written a sanitized version of that ancient text. [...]"

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Destructive_Research

 

Though this does beg the question just what Alkar knew that he wasn't sharing. But we know that that version of the Tome of Rubicon was already a rewritten / sanitized version, givne [this GW2 dialogue](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Trueclaw) suggesting that despite Alkar's claim, he didn't know squat.

 

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> Most likely the book was based on the events of the previous dragon cycle (the dwarves were around), and may have been mistranslated -- for all we know, the Great Destroyer was actually Primordus. It's not like it introduced itself.

It was confirmed by devs during GW2 development that the Great Destroyer fought was the Great Destroyer mentioned in the texts, Primordus' strongest champion. Primordus wasn't/isn't "the true Great Destroyer" of dwarven tales.

[Kovac.4372]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> It should also be stressed that the forging of the Dragonsblood Spear and the dwarven knowledge of the Elder Dragons came about after the events of Eye of the North. During this time, the dwarves were a declining race, slowly dying or undergoing the Rite to chase destroyers into the Depths. As the uncovered more of their forbidden texts, and Glint shared more knowledge in their dying days, the collective consciousness of the Stone Dwarves would no doubt have gained this knowledge, leading to them fighting Primordus when it woke up finally.

>

> The dwarven race died within 50 years after Eye of the North, and during that time is when the forge built, the Dragonsblood spear crafted, and their legacy passed on to the Zephyrites.

 

Can you provide sources for all this?

 

Also, I'm happy you're confirming that I was right about dwarves during GW1 time .... that the things in question happened near but after the events of EOTN.

 

 

 

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> for all we know, the Great Destroyer was actually Primordus. It's not like it introduced itself.

 

What? No ... this is just, not it. We know with 100% certainty who was the Great Destroyer and who was Primordus in Gw1 (in retrospect, as the name Primordus didn't appear in GW1).

 

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Kovac.4372" said:

> Can you provide sources for all this?

 

Some is logical deduction based on Eye of the North and various Priory dialogue too. All dwarven knowledge of ED are ancient, forgotten texts such as the Tome of Rubicon, and those were only recovered after the events of EotN, maybe even after the dwarves were actually gone. The only dwarves we see to know of the ED are those working to pass on their legacy to the Zephyrites and forge the Dragonsblood spear, the former happened - per Zephyrite lore from Bazaar and dev responses afterward - in the years after the events of EotN as the dwarves dying out over 50 years - per dwarf lore in dev commentary about dwarves during GW2 production.

 

In Champion and Scion's second trial, we see a vision of Fronak and a bunch of humans working the forge. Likely that exalted we meet in the story who's name I can't remember atm being among them. This showed that the Dragonsblood Spear forging was post-EotN, in the dying days of the dwarves, and as we only see the one dwarf, suggesting it is _the_ dying days.

[Jokubas.4265]

> @"Kovac.4372" said:

> What? No ... this is just, not it. We know with 100% certainty who was the Great Destroyer and who was Primordus in Gw1 (in retrospect, as the name Primordus didn't appear in GW1).

>

>

I think they were wondering if the _ancient texts_ were referring to Primordus as the Great Destroyer, but by the time of GW1, the dwarves just assumed that this dragon champion must be the Great Destroyer because they were no longer aware of the actual Elder Dragons.