Full counter balance

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

> @SWI.4127 said:

> So what's the main issue, in your opinion. The benefits the warrior gets from landing it, or the speed at which the attack comes out? I can admit that Revenge Counter probably needs some tweaks as it is super strong. Maybe fewer conditions copied or moving the bonus damage to another trait. But I do like the speed at which the counter goes off. Counters are supposed to be quick strikes, that's the whole point of them.

>

> I also think lots of people are complaining about specifics regarding this skill but not looking at the bigger picture when it comes to the game as a whole. There is so much freaking condition spam and AoE spam in this game, and many of the complaints are about the fact that a warrior can finally use some of it to their advantage. I think we have all just gotten used to how the game is at this point, it's easy to forget. Obviously it's more practical to ask them to balance 1 skill rather than rebalance a bunch of the spammy stuff, but it's just frustrating to deal with.

 

I would probably take revenge counter for its namesake. Have it copy the same number of conditions, but also make it more of a double edged sword, have the counter scale with the amount of damage it takes in with revenge counter. So a huge hit will make it hit 20%+ harder, while normal hit will do normal or less damage, while a crappy low damage wiff will make the counter do next to nothing.

The other option is, it removed the evade from the counter, and instead absorbs attacks for its duration and basically blasts back scaling to how much it took in.

[Lighter.5631]

tbh i don't understand now if you think about it

 

only difference between core and sb is you replace strength with sb right?

core and sb literally has the same playstyle, but you fill the void of dodges with FC

strength gives you 2k criting unblockable dodges and 2x more evades

you literally just filling the 2k criting dodge with FC..and less damage

so i dont get it.........

 

[RabbitUp.8294]

It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

 

Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

 

> @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

 

Guardian and Necro have no evades.

[Lighter.5631]

> @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

>

> Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

>

> > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

>

> Guardian and Necro have no evades.

 

Use symbol after full counter? at least that's what i do, or else i drop symbol and kit away

 

and you talking like if guardian and necro get hit by a full counter they are insta downed like magic.

my resistance get stripped by one sec i lose more then 4k health against necro, how about that.

guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker, my guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

[Ragnarox.9601]

> @Lighter.5631 said:

 

> and you talking like if guardian and necro get hit by a full counter they are insta downed like magic.

> my resistance get stripped by one sec i lose more then 4k health against necro, how about that.

> guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker, my guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

 

guardian cant 1v1 spellbreaker, at least someone who played warrior before. that rule counts also for scourges. 2 classes that are over the top in god tier .

[Ezrael.6859]

The most annoying mechanic with Full Counter is that you can be fighting a Spellbreaker and avoiding his Full Counter / stowing your weapon etc while 1v1, then some 'ally' comes along and starts to throw out careless auto attacks and gets you killed by proccing the Full Counter that you were not attacking into.

 

If only the game mechanics could allow Full Counter to only damage the person that triggered it, it's probably not possible.

 

So making Full Counter only deal raw damage and not be able to land critical hits is probably the only sensible balance solution, it's still an evade, daze, damage absorption and if traited some soft CC and condition transfer with good damage on a fast cooldown.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @Ezrael.6859 said:

> So making Full Counter only deal raw damage and not be able to land critical hits is probably the only sensible balance solutiom

 

Ahahaha. How about no? That's just silly to the extreme.

[Mutaatti.2789]

> @CitizenKing.4912 said:

> People who complain about full counter are the same people who stood in the fire during WoW PvE.

>

> Don't trigger it, and if there are AOE nearby, prepare to dodge. Congrats, you're now freaking fine.

 

Hahahaha! Havent met any player yet mid plat who could dodge/stow every FC against SB. :D "dont trigger it!" yeh well mesmer illusion triggered it... "Well dodge!" yeah, did that already twice. Dont have endurance anymore, and illusions keep still triggering it. Cant run away because not fast enough.

 

Now what? I know no one will answer this, because no one can give answer how to deal with FC except just eating it and letting SB to heal himself.

[Choppy.4183]

> @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

>

> Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

>

> > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

>

> Guardian and Necro have no evades.

 

First, every class in the game has evades... they're called dodges. Second, you're missing the point, which is that highly skilled Spellbreakers will time their Full Counters so their opponents have almost no opportunity to prevent the trigger *and* avoid the consequences (still doesn't make them OP). If a Spellbreaker uses Full Counter, steps on a symbol to trigger it and you don't use a dodge to avoid it, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

You know how people have had to dodge your True Shot the last few years? Yeah, same thing here. They're both telegraphed skills that do the same damage and you're best off avoiding them.

 

> @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> Hahahaha! Havent met any player yet mid plat who could dodge/stow every FC against SB. :D "dont trigger it!" yeh well mesmer illusion triggered it... "Well dodge!" yeah, did that already twice. Dont have endurance anymore, and illusions keep still triggering it. Cant run away because not fast enough.

>

> Now what? I know no one will answer this, because no one can give answer how to deal with FC except just eating it and letting SB to heal himself.

 

Well, if you're a mesmer, you also have additional evades and invulns, and you also have ports and stealth (to help you keep range). Beyond that, your expectation shouldn't be that you're able to avoid *every* FC. You're going to get hit with some skills, the trick is avoiding enough from your opponent and landing enough of yours to win the fight, not to come out unscathed.

[Lighter.5631]

> @Ragnarox.9601 said:

> > @Lighter.5631 said:

>

> > and you talking like if guardian and necro get hit by a full counter they are insta downed like magic.

> > my resistance get stripped by one sec i lose more then 4k health against necro, how about that.

> > guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker, my guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

>

> guardian cant 1v1 spellbreaker, at least someone who played warrior before. that rule counts also for scourges. 2 classes that are over the top in god tier .

 

My guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

[Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485]

> @Ezrael.6859 said:

> The most annoying mechanic with Full Counter is that you can be fighting a Spellbreaker and avoiding his Full Counter / stowing your weapon etc while 1v1, then some 'ally' comes along and starts to throw out careless auto attacks and gets you killed by proccing the Full Counter that you were not attacking into.

>

> If only the game mechanics could allow Full Counter to only damage the person that triggered it, it's probably not possible.

>

> So making Full Counter only deal raw damage and not be able to land critical hits is probably the only sensible balance solution, it's still an evade, daze, damage absorption and if traited some soft CC and condition transfer with good damage on a fast cooldown.

 

welcome to team based gameplay. Leave your coat at the door.

[Mutaatti.2789]

> @Choppy.4183 said:

> > @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

> >

> > Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

> >

> > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

> >

> > Guardian and Necro have no evades.

>

> First, every class in the game has evades... they're called dodges. Second, you're missing the point, which is that highly skilled Spellbreakers will time their Full Counters so their opponents have almost no opportunity to prevent the trigger *and* avoid the consequences (still doesn't make them OP). If a Spellbreaker uses Full Counter, steps on a symbol to trigger it and you don't use a dodge to avoid it, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

>

> You know how people have had to dodge your True Shot the last few years? Yeah, same thing here. They're both telegraphed skills that do the same damage and you're best off avoiding them.

>

> > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > Hahahaha! Havent met any player yet mid plat who could dodge/stow every FC against SB. :D "dont trigger it!" yeh well mesmer illusion triggered it... "Well dodge!" yeah, did that already twice. Dont have endurance anymore, and illusions keep still triggering it. Cant run away because not fast enough.

> >

> > Now what? I know no one will answer this, because no one can give answer how to deal with FC except just eating it and letting SB to heal himself.

>

> Well, if you're a mesmer, you also have additional evades and invulns, and you also have ports and stealth (to help you keep range). Beyond that, your expectation shouldn't be that you're able to avoid *every* FC. You're going to get hit with some skills, the trick is avoiding enough from your opponent and landing enough of yours to win the fight, not to come out unscathed.

 

Ehm... I was referring to as a 2v1 situation where lets say guard and mesmer vs spellbreaker. Mesmer keeps triggering FC and guard eats up dmg and procs heal to SB.

 

Or lets say u are ranger/druid/Soulbeast. Atm you have only one trick against them and thats broken pet which can oneshot them. Other than that? Run. Just run and if enemy has 2 spellbreakers and you can't play other class just forfeit. Druid cant bunker point against SB and soulbeast/ranger doesnt do enough dmg to kill.

 

And Adrenal Health works for 15 secs once proc, so spellbreaker needs to land only every third FC or burst.

[Choppy.4183]

> @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> Hahahaha! Havent met any player yet mid plat who could dodge/stow every FC against SB. :D "dont trigger it!" yeh well mesmer illusion triggered it... "Well dodge!" yeah, did that already twice. Dont have endurance anymore, and illusions keep still triggering it. Cant run away because not fast enough.

>

> Now what? I know no one will answer this, because no one can give answer how to deal with FC except just eating it and letting SB to heal himself.

 

> @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > @Choppy.4183 said:

> > > @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > > It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

> > >

> > > Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

> > >

> > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

> > >

> > > Guardian and Necro have no evades.

> >

> > First, every class in the game has evades... they're called dodges. Second, you're missing the point, which is that highly skilled Spellbreakers will time their Full Counters so their opponents have almost no opportunity to prevent the trigger *and* avoid the consequences (still doesn't make them OP). If a Spellbreaker uses Full Counter, steps on a symbol to trigger it and you don't use a dodge to avoid it, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

> >

> > You know how people have had to dodge your True Shot the last few years? Yeah, same thing here. They're both telegraphed skills that do the same damage and you're best off avoiding them.

> >

> > > @Mutaatti.2789 said:

> > > Hahahaha! Havent met any player yet mid plat who could dodge/stow every FC against SB. :D "dont trigger it!" yeh well mesmer illusion triggered it... "Well dodge!" yeah, did that already twice. Dont have endurance anymore, and illusions keep still triggering it. Cant run away because not fast enough.

> > >

> > > Now what? I know no one will answer this, because no one can give answer how to deal with FC except just eating it and letting SB to heal himself.

> >

> > Well, if you're a mesmer, you also have additional evades and invulns, and you also have ports and stealth (to help you keep range). Beyond that, your expectation shouldn't be that you're able to avoid *every* FC. You're going to get hit with some skills, the trick is avoiding enough from your opponent and landing enough of yours to win the fight, not to come out unscathed.

>

> Ehm... I was referring to as a 2v1 situation where lets say guard and mesmer vs spellbreaker. Mesmer keeps triggering FC and guard eats up dmg and procs heal to SB.

>

> Or lets say u are ranger/druid/Soulbeast. Atm you have only one trick against them and thats broken pet which can oneshot them. Other than that? Run. Just run and if enemy has 2 spellbreakers and you can't play other class just forfeit. Druid cant bunker point against SB and soulbeast/ranger doesnt do enough dmg to kill.

>

> And Adrenal Health works for 15 secs once proc, so spellbreaker needs to land only every third FC or burst.

 

Don't fight them on point, especially with another player you can't rely on. Punish them from range for staying on point.

 

I've fought against soulbeasts as a core warrior that did crazy damage in wvw. Sure, you'll do less in pvp, but everything is toned down there. What's your build?

 

Finally, a spellbreaker has to land three bursts/FCs per 15s to maintain max stacks of Adrenal Health. Granted, that's not hard with clones and pets around, but then it never has been since the trait was buffed some time ago.

[Choppy.4183]

To recap, as a Soulbeast you'd do well to keep them off point via range, or make them pay if they decide to stay for the cap.

[RabbitUp.8294]

> @Choppy.4183 said:

> > @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

> >

> > Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

> >

> > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

> >

> > Guardian and Necro have no evades.

>

> First, every class in the game has evades... they're called dodges. Second, you're missing the point, which is that highly skilled Spellbreakers will time their Full Counters so their opponents have almost no opportunity to prevent the trigger *and* avoid the consequences (still doesn't make them OP). If a Spellbreaker uses Full Counter, steps on a symbol to trigger it and you don't use a dodge to avoid it, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

 

What are you talking about? Spellbreaker is standing on an aoe, they press Full Counter, and the next packet of damage will arrive between 0 and 1s later and proc FC. It's not like they use FC and casually walk over the aoe afterwards.

 

> You know how people have had to dodge your True Shot the last few years? Yeah, same thing here. They're both telegraphed skills that do the same damage and you're best off avoiding them.

 

True Shot is indeed telegraphed, but the point is that you can make it so that Full Counter is not. Also, Full Counter is unblockable, so that's one less form of counterplay.

 

> @Lighter.5631 said:

> > @Ragnarox.9601 said:

> > > @Lighter.5631 said:

> >

> > > and you talking like if guardian and necro get hit by a full counter they are insta downed like magic.

> > > my resistance get stripped by one sec i lose more then 4k health against necro, how about that.

> > > guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker, my guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

> >

> > guardian cant 1v1 spellbreaker, at least someone who played warrior before. that rule counts also for scourges. 2 classes that are over the top in god tier .

>

> My guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

 

Can your firebrand?

 

[Choppy.4183]

> @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > @Choppy.4183 said:

> > > @RabbitUp.8294 said:

> > > It doesn't take skill to step on a symbol or random aoe and hit Full Counter. You people act like it's a huge mind game, when the deck is stacked in SB's favour.

> > >

> > > Or use it right before an attack connects. It's an instant cast.

> > >

> > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said:

> > > > All classes have abilities to evade. You have to make a choice on what you want to evade and what you want to eat. It's the same for every spec. I don't know what to tell you.

> > >

> > > Guardian and Necro have no evades.

> >

> > First, every class in the game has evades... they're called dodges. Second, you're missing the point, which is that highly skilled Spellbreakers will time their Full Counters so their opponents have almost no opportunity to prevent the trigger *and* avoid the consequences (still doesn't make them OP). If a Spellbreaker uses Full Counter, steps on a symbol to trigger it and you don't use a dodge to avoid it, then you have nobody to blame but yourself.

>

> What are you talking about? Spellbreaker is standing on an aoe, they press Full Counter, and the next packet of damage will arrive between 0 and 1s later and proc FC. It's not like they use FC and casually walk over the aoe afterwards.

>

> > You know how people have had to dodge your True Shot the last few years? Yeah, same thing here. They're both telegraphed skills that do the same damage and you're best off avoiding them.

>

> True Shot is indeed telegraphed, but the point is that you can make it so that Full Counter is not. Also, Full Counter is unblockable, so that's one less form of counterplay.

>

> > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > > @Ragnarox.9601 said:

> > > > @Lighter.5631 said:

> > >

> > > > and you talking like if guardian and necro get hit by a full counter they are insta downed like magic.

> > > > my resistance get stripped by one sec i lose more then 4k health against necro, how about that.

> > > > guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker, my guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

> > >

> > > guardian cant 1v1 spellbreaker, at least someone who played warrior before. that rule counts also for scourges. 2 classes that are over the top in god tier .

> >

> > My guardian can 1v1 spellbreaker

>

> Can your firebrand?

>

 

Yeah, you can still dodge that. I fight Spellbreakers all the time (I don't play one), and that's dodgeable. The previous examples given, like proccing FC during the last hit of a multi hit skill is the higher level play, when the opponent is locked in an animation and so can't avoid the blast.

 

And, yes, block isn't an option. In the other hand, range is the extra option you have vs FC that you don't against TS.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @SWI.4127 said:

> So what's the main issue, in your opinion. The benefits the warrior gets from landing it, or the speed at which the attack comes out? I can admit that Revenge Counter probably needs some tweaks as it is super strong. Maybe fewer conditions copied or moving the bonus damage to another trait. But I do like the speed at which the counter goes off. Counters are supposed to be quick strikes, that's the whole point of them.

>

> I also think lots of people are complaining about specifics regarding this skill but not looking at the bigger picture when it comes to the game as a whole. There is so much freaking condition spam and AoE spam in this game, and many of the complaints are about the fact that a warrior can finally use some of it to their advantage. I think we have all just gotten used to how the game is at this point, it's easy to forget. Obviously it's more practical to ask them to balance 1 skill rather than rebalance a bunch of the spammy stuff, but it's just frustrating to deal with.

 

I am looking at the big picture. The big picture is that if you take FC as it is right now, it is simply too strong and overtuned.

 

Seriously... look at it (traited with relevant SB traits and running Discipline):

* 4-5k crit

* 5 targets

* Unblockable

* 6.75s cooldown

* 300 range (this is bigger than traited guardian symbols)

* Completely negates one attack AND makes you evade for 0.5s afterwards

* counter-strike comes out in 0.25s (not avoidable by reflex if SB uses properly)

* Removes a boon from every affected target without stability if it lands

* Gains 2s stability, 2s resistance (even if opponent dodges/avoids counterattack)

* Copies 5 conditions to all foes struck

* Cripples and slows for 3s

* Refreshes f1 burst skills

* Counts as a burst (+ sustain through AH)

 

Never in GW2 history has a more loaded skill existed... And it's equal parts hilarious and sad to think that people are actually advocating that FC shouldn't receive any nerfs and is fine as is. It has counter-play, but not enough counterplay and when fights last longer than 20 seconds (which they do at high levels of play), then FC starts to become a serious problem since some of the best ways of dealing with it are locked behind skills with much higher cooldowns.

 

Many players who took the time to learn SB before whining including myself have picked at various aspects of FC over the past couple of weeks and have advocated small nerfs only (and only one or a few since altogether, these would gut FC):

* Increase cd to 10-12s

* Decrease range to 240

* Remove daze (because this essentially allows FC to boon strip)

* Make it blockable

* Increase the "cast time" of the counter strike to 0.5 or 0.75s up from 0.25

* Decrease # of conditions copied from 5 to either 2 or 3 (can compensate by making them xfer rather than copy)

* Remove or nerf the +20% damage from Revenge Counter

* Do not receive stability/resistance unless at least 1 target is actually struck by the counter strike

 

Again, only one or a few of the above needs to be made to FC. You could pick apart each nerf in a vacuum and argue why it would be horrible and would "completely kill SB" but I find it difficult to believe that anyone can look at FC in its full glory and non-ironically think that it's completely okay and doesn't need nerfing.

[SWI.4127]

> @Arcaedus.7290 said:

 

> Many players who took the time to learn SB before whining including myself have picked at various aspects of FC over the past couple of weeks and have advocated small nerfs only (and only one or a few since altogether, these would gut FC):

> * Increase cd to 10-12s

> * Decrease range to 240

> * Remove daze (because this essentially allows FC to boon strip)

> * Make it blockable

> * Increase the "cast time" of the counter strike to 0.5 or 0.75s up from 0.25

> * Decrease # of conditions copied from 5 to either 2 or 3 (can compensate by making them xfer rather than copy)

> * Remove or nerf the +20% damage from Revenge Counter

> * Do not receive stability/resistance unless at least 1 target is actually struck by the counter strike

>

> Again, only one or a few of the above needs to be made to FC. You could pick apart each nerf in a vacuum and argue why it would be horrible and would "completely kill SB" but I find it difficult to believe that anyone can look at FC in its full glory and non-ironically think that it's completely okay and doesn't need nerfing.

 

Just gonna give my opinion on some of these balance options. I'd prefer if all burst skills had the same cooldown, but that may end up being the most sensible thing to change. Range could also be an okay option that wouldn't kill it. I strongly disagree with removing the daze. Yes, it boon strips. That is the _entire point_ of the class. Again disagree with unblockable. It's a counter, it's supposed to catch people off-guard. .5s cast time I could live with. .75 is way too much. Too many warrior skills have been plagued with the .75 cast time balance already. They did it with shield bash, they did it with head butt. It's a lazy way to nerf stuff, and it's going overboard for a _counter_ skill which is supposed to be quick. It also needs stability otherwise people would just CC you out of it.

 

With the Revenge Counter, that's what I mean when I say not looking at the big picture. That means it requires the Warrior to have 5 conditions applied to them at the time. The condition spam in this game is ridiculous. I think it's ignoring the source of the problem to point at Revenge Counter and say that's the issue. The only reason it's so annoying is that there are way too many conditions flying around constantly. Also this is a Grandmaster trait. Nerfing it as you suggested is way too much. They can and maybe should remove the 20% damage component, maybe add that to another one of the traits instead. It's supposed to punish condition spam though. Leave that part intact.

 

I also wanted to add you are correct that FC does a lot if you select all the traits for it. But I don't know if another GW2 class has ever been so centered around one skill. I am starting to see that it really is not the best design on A-net's part. If they overdo nerfs for FC, it will kill the class. Because it's the foundation of the entire class. I think it's why so many Warriors are wary of people calling for the nerfhammer so hard. I've even seen people suggesting a 15 sec cooldown in that PvP thread. That would basically mean you are worse than a Core warrior except for once every 15 seconds. I know you didn't suggest that, just saying I see the pitchforks out all over this forum, and I really don't want to see the class basically dead after 1 month. Just trying to help you see it from our point of view as well. Thanks for laying your thoughts out.

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @SWI.4127 said:

 

> I also wanted to add you are correct that FC does a lot if you select all the traits for it. But I don't know if another GW2 class has ever been so centered around one skill. I am starting to see that it really is not the best design on A-net's part. If they overdo nerfs for FC, it will kill the class. Because it's the foundation of the entire class.

 

This is an excellent point that I hope the devs notice. When balance patch comes around, FC is going to get nerf-batted in the face and HARD. This is a problem for SB since there is waaaaaaaay too much of the entire elite spec loaded onto FC. Spellbreaker right now is essentially two things: FC and boon removal. It's no wonder that there are only two functional builds for SB out there right now (WvW frontliner boon-strip focused...... and...... GS + Dag/Sh in spvp).

 

SB needs love elsewhere and that means picking apart some of the things that FC does and distributing them elsewhere on the spec.

 

[Oglaf.1074]

> @Arcaedus.7290 said:

> > @SWI.4127 said:

>

> > I also wanted to add you are correct that FC does a lot if you select all the traits for it. But I don't know if another GW2 class has ever been so centered around one skill. I am starting to see that it really is not the best design on A-net's part. If they overdo nerfs for FC, it will kill the class. Because it's the foundation of the entire class.

>

> This is an excellent point that I hope the devs notice. When balance patch comes around, FC is going to get nerf-batted in the face and HARD. This is a problem for SB since there is waaaaaaaay too much of the entire elite spec loaded onto FC. Spellbreaker right now is essentially two things: FC and boon removal. It's no wonder that there are only two functional builds for SB out there right now (WvW frontliner boon-strip focused...... and...... GS + Dag/Sh in spvp).

>

> SB needs love elsewhere and that means picking apart some of the things that FC does and distributing them elsewhere on the spec.

>

 

Oh I can literally taste the salt flowing of each letter you type. No sorry, nothing is ever going to make Spellbreaker viable in anything than PvP and if you nerf those aspects of it you essentially might as well flat-out delete it at this point. It was a mistake for Anet to make a PvP only spec, but now that they gone and done it they cannot backpeddle on it.

[Hitman.5829]

Ah so you want to melt down the warrior with your skill spamming techniques? All these crying babies that are getting owned by this lone skill are the ones that press all their buttons and hope to win by doing that! Full counter is the skill that finally gives warrior a chance at fighting these skill spammers, specially the skill spammers mesmer and thief!

 

If you are a warrior, you know how annoying it is when a thief blinds you with dagger pistol teleport, then does a shit ton of damage and your your next attack misses because you have blindness, then the thief repeats again and again and again. With full counter, you activate and the thief gets penalized for being an annoying auto hot script boot.

 

Or when you are fighting a mesmer and they just keep spamming their clones and applying tons of conditions on you from 1200 range away.

 

If you are a warrior you know how annoying it is to be a melee class and to constantly chase these skill spammers who just run and run and run in circles around you applying condition after condition.

 

[Obindo.6802]

Just make full counter purely defensive. Rework traits. Evade frame + eventual traits from trait rework. Back to reactive and less retarded gameplay. Dont fix with numbers. Kthx

[SWI.4127]

> @Obindo.6802 said:

> Just make full counter purely defensive. Rework traits. Evade frame + eventual traits from trait rework. Back to reactive and less kitten gameplay. Dont fix with numbers. Kthx

 

So basically you want to turn the new Warrior elite spec into "you get a block every few seconds"?

[Arcaedus.7290]

> @Oglaf.1074 said:

 

> Oh I can literally taste the salt flowing of each letter you type. No sorry, nothing is ever going to make Spellbreaker viable in anything than PvP and if you nerf those aspects of it you essentially might as well flat-out delete it at this point. It was a mistake for Anet to make a PvP only spec, but now that they gone and done it they cannot backpeddle on it.

 

That's a gross overexaggeration and you also just backed up the point I was trying to make: It's a problem that SB would be relegated to near uselessness if it received a nerf to one skill. That means way too much of the utility of this entire traitline is placed on this one mechanic.

[fuzzyp.6295]

Some of my own personal experience with FC and SB:

 

After PoF landed, I dusted off my Warrior to fool around with her in WvW for a bit. I've spent maybe a grand total of 20 hours playing her over my 5 year stay in GW2. I hopped into WvW and started face rolling with the new Spellbreaker Elite. Despite knowing very little about the mechanics of Warrior and Spellbreaker in general to be honest, I was easily winning all my duels (expect against other spellbreakers) and won a quiet a few 1v2 and even 1v3s... Full Counter is amazingly powerful and needs to be brought into balance. I don't even think this is a fully L2P issue, particularly in WvW. I've fought players in the camps and used my Full Counter to down them even they stowed their weapons and started to kite, the darn NPC triggered the lovely 5K aoe. <3

 

I really feel a class should not be this rewarding to someone who literally has no idea how to play it... but it is. I think the original idea of having the damage stay about the same, just increasing the cool down and the bring the amount of adrenaline needed to perform it to two full bars would be enough of a nerf to be honest.