Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Lore said that he transferred his consciousness into the golem which debunks the copy theory that he's _**Just. A. Rather. Very. Intelligent. System.**_ without a soul. Nowhere has this been stated. If it has, please, provide a source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert. > > I'm not sure the Ascended status of the Nightfall hero was canon so much as it was they just didn't really want to shoehorn a third variant into the plot. I.e., it might have been more about mechanics and balance than lore. It's not canon. ArenaNet writers outright stated they didn't want to do yet another "Ascension plot" so they just stuck onto the main plot quest that made the most sense for them that was midway through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbes.3620 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Non-Elonian PC can only commune with the gods while praying on a shrine, Dervish does it on the whim where ever, whenever. Their connection to the gods is obviously far greater than that of a Tyrian or a Canthan Ascended. Paragon's Arias and Chants are different forms of prayers to the gods. The facts are there, you're just choosing to ignore them. > Well Other Classes did that too. the dervish may be the most obvious thanks to the Avatars but that doesnt makes him the only class. and paragon well thats something to argue about completly .. some guy who is singing about flames or restorrytion or whatever does not give him speacial Connection to the gods. Monks for example had skills direktly connected to dwayna "dwaynas kiss" just cuz it's hard to believe.. or "Grenths Balance" for necromancers > Zehtuka is irrelevant in this discussion since he does things that no normal humans should be able to do and go where human should not been able to go. He is a mystery on its own. You're assuming that he's not Ascended, well he does things that only Ascended individuals could. > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. > > > > > > Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead. > > > > Does the body have a pulse? No? Then it's [medically deceased.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death "medically deceased.") > > > > I'm sure the Sylvaris disagree with your interpretation. > thats like saying that plants are not alive. if u Need Body fuilds u still got the explanations from arenanet that sylvarie got some Kind of sap thats functioning like blood. ist not clearyfied if they got a pulse while i doubt it. ofcourse assuming something is not alive just cuz it lacks pulse is not really the best Argument here but the same goes with the Statement that everything is alive as Long as the sould did not enter the mists. > > I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead". > > > > You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead. > his Body definetly is. we Need to destinguish between living Body and living Soul here otherwise there is nothing to accomplish in this argument > I've already explained, death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. If they didn't end up in the Mist, they are not dead. This is why we get to kill the Ascalonian Ghosts over and over again, yet they don't die and still comes back. Their souls have transferred to the land of Ascalon, no different than them attaching to a vase. Without their soul being transferred into another medium, their soul will end up in the Mist then they are officially dead. > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling. > > > > Looking for Gwen wasn't necessarily "the last thing she was doing", after all, talking about being transparent is pretty unlikely to be the last thing Renault was doing before dying. Sarah's likely looking for Gwen because she *expected that Gwen died too* given that when the two meet, Sarah says this: > > > > Sarah: "Gwen! Oh...my! Look how you've grown! How many years have passed me by in this place...? I feared I would never seen you again; that you were lost to me forever. > > > > Sarah doesn't easily recognize the passage of time, but she recognizes that she's dead, but was trying to find her daughter in the afterlife. > > > > You said Sarah might have died instantly and that she doesn't even know that she's dead. You are now contradicting your previous statement here. > > It is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen. > > Your take makes zero sense. > not so sure that she is searching for Gwen for that reason. there are multiple attempts for Interpretation possible ur and konigs both make sense propably there are more and at that Point ist up to the individual to Chose the one he likes best cuz we dont have clarification from arenanet > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met. > > It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition. > > > > Again, "it is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen." > > What exactly is the opposite of that conclusion? > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are. > > > > Some of them, yes. But all of them? Is it ever stated that *every* Lost Spirit has lost their memory? [This one seems pretty kitten self-knowing if you ask me](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lost_Soul_(Underworld)). > > > > That's the same Lost Soul who wonders why he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement. As I have already explained, the soul cannot be judge if they have forgotten themselves. The fact that he is there and not in the Hall proves that he has forgotten himself. > > Unless of course you're trying to argue that someone mishandled his application and lost his paper works, then I digress. > i agree with konig here. just because the humands believe that they are judged in the hall of judgement doesnt make it true. the hall is dhuums prison so i doubt they will be judged there. additionaly the underworld from gw1 wasnt in a state were everything went smoothly cuz we had to free grenths reapers ill cut of here cuz i dont have time anymore maybe ill add the rest later :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 > @"norbes.3620" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Non-Elonian PC can only commune with the gods while praying on a shrine, Dervish does it on the whim where ever, whenever. Their connection to the gods is obviously far greater than that of a Tyrian or a Canthan Ascended. Paragon's Arias and Chants are different forms of prayers to the gods. The facts are there, you're just choosing to ignore them. > > > > Well Other Classes did that too. the dervish may be the most obvious thanks to the Avatars but that doesnt makes him the only class. and paragon well thats something to argue about completly .. some guy who is singing about flames or restorrytion or whatever does not give him speacial Connection to the gods. Monks for example had skills direktly connected to dwayna "dwaynas kiss" just cuz it's hard to believe.. or "Grenths Balance" for necromancers > The difference is that, the Monks in Elona doesn't need Ascension while the Monks in Tyria does. Whether that is a game design decision or not doesn't change the fact that Elonians doesn't need to go through the Ascension trial. > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > As long as that soul has a body through transfer to another body, that person is not dead. Death in GW is the soul leaving the body and going to the Mist. > > > > > > > > Blish said; "Life as a machine is incomprehensible to living beings" meaning he's not dead. > > > > > > Does the body have a pulse? No? Then it's [medically deceased.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death "medically deceased.") > > > > > > > I'm sure the Sylvaris disagree with your interpretation. > > > > thats like saying that plants are not alive. if u Need Body fuilds u still got the explanations from arenanet that sylvarie got some Kind of sap thats functioning like blood. ist not clearyfied if they got a pulse while i doubt it. > ofcourse assuming something is not alive just cuz it lacks pulse is not really the best Argument here > but the same goes with the Statement that everything is alive as Long as the sould did not enter the mists. > I'm not the one saying that Sylvari's aren't alive. My position is that, the Sylvari is the proof that you don't need pulse to be alive. Pulse requires a blood pumping mechanism which the Sylvari do not have. Yes they have golden saps as blood, but like a tree, no pulse. > > > I mean, in the argument that a talking vase possessed by a spirit is not dead (and your definition does, indeed, fit this - the vase is functioning as a body, and they can interact with others), then what is death anyways? Being a spirit and walking about might as well be "not dead". > > > > > > > You tell me. You're the one having trouble distinguishing who is dead and who is alive in GW. According to you, Blish, without a pulse, is dead. > > > > his Body definetly is. we Need to destinguish between living Body and living Soul here otherwise there is nothing to accomplish in this argument > The disagreement is in the definition of "alive" and "dead" in the world of GW2. If Blish died, he would have ended up in the Mist, not inside a golem. > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > Come on, everyone in Ascalon can see the crystals falling from the sky. The fact that she's frantically looking for Gwen shows that it was the last thing she's doing before dying. Why is she frantically looking for Gwen? That is because she can see the sky is falling. > > > > > > Looking for Gwen wasn't necessarily "the last thing she was doing", after all, talking about being transparent is pretty unlikely to be the last thing Renault was doing before dying. Sarah's likely looking for Gwen because she *expected that Gwen died too* given that when the two meet, Sarah says this: > > > > > > Sarah: "Gwen! Oh...my! Look how you've grown! How many years have passed me by in this place...? I feared I would never seen you again; that you were lost to me forever. > > > > > > Sarah doesn't easily recognize the passage of time, but she recognizes that she's dead, but was trying to find her daughter in the afterlife. > > > > > > > You said Sarah might have died instantly and that she doesn't even know that she's dead. You are now contradicting your previous statement here. > > > > It is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen. > > > > Your take makes zero sense. > > > > not so sure that she is searching for Gwen for that reason. there are multiple attempts for Interpretation possible ur and konigs both make sense propably there are more and at that Point ist up to the individual to Chose the one he likes best cuz we dont have clarification from arenanet > Well the reason why Sarah was dragged into this is because Konig believes that if human died traumatically that they will lose their memory, thus ending up in the Domain of the Lost. Sarah's death is traumatic because the Searing and since she believes that her daughter also suffered the same fate as her, yet she retains her memory. So dying traumatically doesn't necessarily means that you'll lose your memory. Even The Judge said, "those whose deaths are too traumatic often forget who they were" -- he said often, not always. So if someone died a traumatic death AND they forgot who they were, they end up in the Domain of the Lost. Sarah didn't forget despite the trauma that she suffered. The only argument against this is to ~~deny~~ believe that the Searing is not a traumatic experience. (EDIT for clarity) > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > I never said that it is always traumatic. There was a ghost in the Underworld who may have died instantaneously and all he can remember was bright lights and fire in the sky. He may not had a chance to react to what he was seeing before he died. Sarah was frantically looking for Gwen which strongly suggests that it is what she was doing before dying. And Sarah knows she's dead. Her first encounter with Gwen shows that she's been in the Underworld for so long seeing how grown up Gwen was when they finally met. > > > It's ironic, you see all the evidence before you, but you come to the opposite conclusion because you're so deadset on your definition. > > > > > > > Again, "it is fairly obvious that when Sarah saw the crystals falling from the sky, she started looking for Gwen, then she died. When she regain consciousness in the Underworld, she's still looking for Gwen." > > > > What exactly is the opposite of that conclusion? > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > The Lost Soul wanders around because they have forgotten who they are. > > > > > > Some of them, yes. But all of them? Is it ever stated that *every* Lost Spirit has lost their memory? [This one seems pretty kitten self-knowing if you ask me](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Lost_Soul_(Underworld)). > > > > > > > That's the same Lost Soul who wonders why he didn't end up in the Halls of Judgement. As I have already explained, the soul cannot be judge if they have forgotten themselves. The fact that he is there and not in the Hall proves that he has forgotten himself. > > > > Unless of course you're trying to argue that someone mishandled his application and lost his paper works, then I digress. > > > > i agree with konig here. just because the humands believe that they are judged in the hall of judgement doesnt make it true. the hall is dhuums prison so i doubt they will be judged there. additionaly the underworld from gw1 wasnt in a state were everything went smoothly cuz we had to free grenths reapers > The human belief that the dead is judged in the hall of judgement has to come from somewhere, right? And who else will relay that information to the priests if not the gods themselves. It was appropriately name until Grenth decided to make it Dhuum's prison. In this case, that belief is mostly true, albeit maybe outdated. However, you made me realize something. Due to the fact you pointed out that everything were not going smoothly and the fact that Grenth repurposed the Hall to a prison, that may be a valid reason why the ghosts didn't end up in the Halls. However, just like the modern court houses, there are holding cells in the same building. So it is still possible to imprison Dhuum in the same place where judgement is conducted, just like a holding cell outside the court room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert. That would be... quite bizarre, given the [largest concentration of ghosts in the desert](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)) were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert. > That would be... quite bizarre, given the [largest concentration of ghosts in the desert](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)) were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend. They didn't went to Crystal Desert believing that it's the only place. Turai thought he was fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophesy which lead them to the Crystal Desert where the prophesy is to be fulfilled. As the Canthan have proven, you can Ascend anywhere as long as you gain the favor of the gods or in their case the celestials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert. > > That would be... quite bizarre, given the [largest concentration of ghosts in the desert](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)) were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend. > > They didn't went to Crystal Desert believing that it's the only place. Turai thought he was fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophesy which lead them to the Crystal Desert where the prophesy is to be fulfilled. As the Canthan have proven, you can Ascend anywhere as long as you gain the favor of the gods or in their case the celestials. Technically speaking, Ascension is never mentioned in the Flameseeker Prophecies, nor is the Crystal Desert ever named. The relevant lines are: Scroll 2, Verse 15 At the point of delivery, desperation brings alliances The bird of prey steps into the forefront Spreading wings of friendship, but to ensnare His council is taken as wisdom and kindness Scroll 3, Verse 1 A man once revered but without soul and mercy Will stretch his talons across all Tyria Those who seek audience with the gods Must succeed, or all will be changed Scroll 3, Verse 2 A forgotten race, molded with four arms And the visage of a snake Ally themselves with the soothsayer When they leave the world of men, gods will weep Scroll 3, Verse 3 At the steps of the tombs, danger rises Horrors guard the entrance with vengeance But as day leads and night falls unfalteringly So are the worthy led by their hero Scroll 3, Verse 4 Deep within the Mists, blood will be spilled The Hall will seem unjust to those who are conquered Poison, illusion, and fire will meet plague and steel Glory will not be easily claimed https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flameseeker_Verse Scroll 2, Verse 15 refers to Sanctum Cay's events, Scroll 3 Verse 1 refers to the Crystal Desert stuff, Verse 2 to The Dragon's Layer, and Verse 3 and 4 seem to be focused on the Tombs PvP. No mention of where Ascension will occur. It merely states that "those who seek audience with the gods" (Ascension) "must succeed or all will be changed". Does not mention where, how, or when Ascension will be obtained. Just that there will be people seeking Ascension and that they must succeed. Furthermore, GW2 proves you wrong even more than GW1 did; Elonians are going to the Crystal Desert to attempt Ascension. Your entire argument is built on the (false) assumption that Ascendancy is required to enter the Mists according to GW1. When pointed out the facts, you deny them as an isolated effect. Seeing your argument here is like watching an anti-vaxxer's argument. You find no evidence to support your claim, yet despite evidence debunking your claim you stick with it and shout "that doesn't count!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > Elonia has been cut off from the Crystal Desert for centuries yet they have Ascended heroes in the Order of the Sunspears. It is clear that they have found another way to Ascend. Tyrians are simply following the Elonian way. So if Elonian first established how to Ascend, it is not unthinkable that they have found another way without the need of pilgrimage to the Crystal Desert. > > > That would be... quite bizarre, given the [largest concentration of ghosts in the desert](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ghostly_Hero_(PvE)) were Elonians led there to die by a king whose years of research had led him to believe that the Crystal Desert was the only way to Ascend. > > > > They didn't went to Crystal Desert believing that it's the only place. Turai thought he was fulfilling the Flameseeker Prophesy which lead them to the Crystal Desert where the prophesy is to be fulfilled. As the Canthan have proven, you can Ascend anywhere as long as you gain the favor of the gods or in their case the celestials. > > Technically speaking, Ascension is never mentioned in the Flameseeker Prophecies, nor is the Crystal Desert ever named. The relevant lines are: > > Scroll 2, Verse 15 > At the point of delivery, desperation brings alliances > The bird of prey steps into the forefront > Spreading wings of friendship, but to ensnare > His council is taken as wisdom and kindness > > Scroll 3, Verse 1 > A man once revered but without soul and mercy > Will stretch his talons across all Tyria > Those who seek audience with the gods > Must succeed, or all will be changed > > Scroll 3, Verse 2 > A forgotten race, molded with four arms > And the visage of a snake > Ally themselves with the soothsayer > When they leave the world of men, gods will weep > > Scroll 3, Verse 3 > At the steps of the tombs, danger rises > Horrors guard the entrance with vengeance > But as day leads and night falls unfalteringly > So are the worthy led by their hero > > Scroll 3, Verse 4 > Deep within the Mists, blood will be spilled > The Hall will seem unjust to those who are conquered > Poison, illusion, and fire will meet plague and steel > Glory will not be easily claimed > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flameseeker_Verse > > Scroll 2, Verse 15 refers to Sanctum Cay's events, Scroll 3 Verse 1 refers to the Crystal Desert stuff, Verse 2 to The Dragon's Layer, and Verse 3 and 4 seem to be focused on the Tombs PvP. > > No mention of where Ascension will occur. It merely states that "those who seek audience with the gods" (Ascension) "must succeed or all will be changed". > > Does not mention where, how, or when Ascension will be obtained. Just that there will be people seeking Ascension and that they must succeed. > > Furthermore, GW2 proves you wrong even more than GW1 did; Elonians are going to the Crystal Desert to attempt Ascension. > > Your entire argument is built on the (false) assumption that Ascendancy is required to enter the Mists according to GW1. When pointed out the facts, you deny them as an isolated effect. Seeing your argument here is like watching an anti-vaxxer's argument. You find no evidence to support your claim, yet despite evidence debunking your claim you stick with it and shout "that doesn't count!" _"For many centuries have I lingered here in this desert, waiting for the Prophecy to come to pass."_ _"My name was Turai Ossa. I was the Champion of Elona, the protector and leader of my people."_ _"I perished, along with the rest of my people, trying to build a temple to the old gods. We foolishly thought that we were the ones in the Flameseeker Prophecies"_ _"But if you wish to know more, then you should ask the one who had the premonitions, the Prophet."_ _"Her name is Glint, and she is quite old, even for a dragon."_ _"Only those who Ascend will find the portal that takes them to her."_ _"You will have to prove to the gods that you are worthy of Ascension. There are three test you must pass before you will be let into the mesa at Augury Rock."_ This talkative Ghostly Hero just answered the Where and How in accordance to the prophesy, the When question is irrelevant since this ghost have waited for centuries. Your answers are there, you're just looking at the wrong places just so you can pounce and call my entire argument based on "false" assumption. One fact that you pointed out is that, "No mention of where Ascension will occur" -- that is because it can happen anywhere, just like in Cantha. The Crystal Desert is just a convenient location since that's where Glint is and it's closer to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings. The Elonians in GW2 seeking Ascension are doing it in vain. Great Ritual Priest Zahmut even said, "Hello. If you are here for Ascension, it hasn't worked for many years." So you might need to double check your source before saying that it proves me wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > This talkative Ghostly Hero just answered the Where and How in accordance to the prophesy, the When question is irrelevant since this ghost have waited for centuries. Your answers are there, you're just looking at the wrong places just so you can pounce and call my entire argument based on "false" assumption. Yes, someone talking about a prophecy clearly states where the prophecy demands Ascension to take place, while the prophecy itself does not. Turai talks about waiting in the Crystal Desert because _the only place Elonians can seek Ascension, ever, was at the Crystal Desert_. The Prophecies doesn't state where, because there is only one where, that's why Turai knew to go to the desert. And the same goes for the GW1 PC; if Ascension could be done anywhere, why go to the Crystal Desert, an inhospitable location, since the prophecy does not call for them to go to the Crystal Desert, just to Ascend? The answer is simple: you cannot Ascend elsewhere. > One fact that you pointed out is that, "No mention of where Ascension will occur" -- that is because it can happen anywhere, just like in Cantha. The Crystal Desert is just a convenient location since that's where Glint is and it's closer to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings. If that were the case, then there'd be no need for Turai to go to the Crystal Desert to Ascend. Because like I said, trying to fulfill the prophecy calls for Ascension, not Ascension in the Crystal Desert. Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't. Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul. > The Elonians in GW2 seeking Ascension are doing it in vain. Great Ritual Priest Zahmut even said, "Hello. If you are here for Ascension, it hasn't worked for many years." So you might need to double check your source before saying that it proves me wrong. And if Ascension could be done anywhere, they needn't focus on trying to Ascend in Augury Rock. It's simple logic. And all of this **STILL** ignores the fact that multiple non-Ascended, non-monk, non-Paragon, non-Dervish, non-Sunspears openly enter the Realm of Torment and return without issue. Norgu, Goren, Zenmai, Olias, Jurah (aka Master of Whispers), Zhed, Margrid the Sly, and countless Order of Whispers members. You keep spouting about how Paragons, Elonian Monks, Dervishes, and Sunspears are somehow magically automatically Ascended, without ever bothing to explain how that might be, just because they're apparently blessed by the gods (which is not Ascension btw), yet tactfully ignore the existence of these individuals. Even when they're brought to your attention. Twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > This talkative Ghostly Hero just answered the Where and How in accordance to the prophesy, the When question is irrelevant since this ghost have waited for centuries. Your answers are there, you're just looking at the wrong places just so you can pounce and call my entire argument based on "false" assumption. > > Yes, someone talking about a prophecy clearly states where the prophecy demands Ascension to take place, while the prophecy itself does not. > > Turai talks about waiting in the Crystal Desert because _the only place Elonians can seek Ascension, ever, was at the Crystal Desert_. The Prophecies doesn't state where, because there is only one where, that's why Turai knew to go to the desert. > > And the same goes for the GW1 PC; if Ascension could be done anywhere, why go to the Crystal Desert, an inhospitable location, since the prophecy does not call for them to go to the Crystal Desert, just to Ascend? > > The answer is simple: you cannot Ascend elsewhere. > The Ascension is not tied with the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that. The Prophesy lead to the Crystal Desert because of two things; 1) Tombs of the Primeval Kings and 2) Glint's Lair. Why would the Prophesy lead Elonians or Tyrians somewhere else if they need to meet Glint and enter the Tombs afterwards? The most logical location for the Ascension is where Glint is and conveniently where the Tombs is located. Cathans do not need to meet Glint, thus they can perform the Ascension in Cantha. Since the Elonians no longer need to fulfill the Prophesies, there is no longer any reason to pilgrimage to Crystal Desert. This is why in GW2, those who seek Ascension do not find it because you can no longer Ascend there. If that is the ONLY place for Ascension, then why did it stop working many years before Kormir's departure? Ascending in the Crystal Desert no longer necessary after the Prophesy was fulfilled. Thus it is logical that Elonians, just like Canthans, have found another way to Ascend without the need to go to the Crystal Desert. > > One fact that you pointed out is that, "No mention of where Ascension will occur" -- that is because it can happen anywhere, just like in Cantha. The Crystal Desert is just a convenient location since that's where Glint is and it's closer to the Tombs of the Primeval Kings. > > If that were the case, then there'd be no need for Turai to go to the Crystal Desert to Ascend. Because like I said, trying to fulfill the prophecy calls for Ascension, not Ascension in the Crystal Desert. > Ascension in the Crystal Desert is just a matter of convenience for Glint and access to the Tombs. All the other myths about the Desert being the place where the gods once walked, etc. are just that, myths because Cathans have proven they can Ascend else where. If the myth is not a myth, then why didn't they choose Arah instead? Or at least a location where Orr used to be. If they want to be closer to the gods, that would be the place. > Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't. > > Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul. > That train of thought just open up the possibility that Elonians might have establish a different way to Ascend, their own Weh noSu, without actually going through the Ascension process or trials. The fact that they don't need to physically go through the Ascension process is proof that they have found a way to Ascend. > > The Elonians in GW2 seeking Ascension are doing it in vain. Great Ritual Priest Zahmut even said, "Hello. If you are here for Ascension, it hasn't worked for many years." So you might need to double check your source before saying that it proves me wrong. > > And if Ascension could be done anywhere, they needn't focus on trying to Ascend in Augury Rock. It's simple logic. > Again, the Crystal Desert location is not because it is where to Ascend, it is because it is where the Prophesy lead them. It is a convenient location for the one who compiled the Prophesies, Glint other than the fact that the Tombs is literally just next door. > And all of this **STILL** ignores the fact that multiple non-Ascended, non-monk, non-Paragon, non-Dervish, non-Sunspears openly enter the Realm of Torment and return without issue. > > Norgu, Goren, Zenmai, Olias, Jurah (aka Master of Whispers), Zhed, Margrid the Sly, and countless Order of Whispers members. > > You keep spouting about how Paragons, Elonian Monks, Dervishes, and Sunspears are somehow magically automatically Ascended, without ever bothing to explain how that might be, just because they're apparently blessed by the gods (which is not Ascension btw), yet tactfully ignore the existence of these individuals. Even when they're brought to your attention. Twice. The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial. If you take a Tyrian or Canthan character to Elona before doing their Ascension and finished the quest Hunted!, these characters would not be Ascended since they are foreign characters. The Ascension in Elona is reserved for Elonians which is another proof that Elonians have found a different way to Ascend (caveat: This is based on the Nightfall game when it was current). If Ascension isn't required, then why even bother with the Crystal Desert and Weh no Su and why can't a Tyrian/Canthan be in Ascended status after the Hunted! quest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted February 1, 2019 Share Posted February 1, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial. The only fact being ignored is that Elonian characters being treated as Ascended is mechanical, not canonical. Ie, it would have too big of a PITA to actually enforce the lore-established rules of Ascension for heroes and Elonian PCs, so they just ignored them, but it doesn't actually mean anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The Ascension is not tied with the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that. The Prophesy lead to the Crystal Desert because of two things; 1) Tombs of the Primeval Kings and 2) Glint's Lair. The prophecy literally says: Those who seek audience with the gods That's referring to Ascension. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Why would the Prophesy lead Elonians or Tyrians somewhere else if they need to meet Glint and enter the Tombs afterwards? The most logical location for the Ascension is where Glint is and conveniently where the Tombs is located. The prophecy does talk about the Forgotten and Glint, but never mentions the Chosen needing to meet them. Same with the Tomb events - shit goes on, but nothing about the Chosen there. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't. > > > > Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul. > > > > That train of thought just open up the possibility that Elonians might have establish a different way to Ascend, their own Weh noSu, without actually going through the Ascension process or trials. The fact that they don't need to physically go through the Ascension process is proof that they have found a way to Ascend. Sure, if there was literally any evidence to support the claim. Spoiler alter: there isn't. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial. It would only be proof they have Ascended if and only if Ascending was needed to enter the Mists. It's a simple logic problem. You have three statements, A, B, and C: A. Only those who are Ascended can physically enter the Mists. (Assumed) B. Elonian heroes have not Ascended. (Fact) C. Elonian heroes have physically entered the Mists. (Fact) Since all three being true is contradicting, one of the three statements must be false. The first statement is assumed, based purely off of mechanics; the second and third statements are facts. And your assumption comes from this: "People seek the aid of Grenth for many reasons. Do you dedicate this offering to one in particular?" "Do you seek to serve the God of Death? The challenges you shall face in the Underworld are far greater than any you have experienced in the mortal realm." "It is recommended you enter with a party of eight Ascended heroes. Do you still wish to enter Grenth's realm with your current group?" https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voice_of_Grenth But this statement does not say Ascension is required. It is **recommended**. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > If you take a Tyrian or Canthan character to Elona before doing their Ascension and finished the quest Hunted!, these characters would not be Ascended since they are foreign characters. The Ascension in Elona is reserved for Elonians which is another proof that Elonians have found a different way to Ascend (caveat: This is based on the Nightfall game when it was current). > > If Ascension isn't required, then why even bother with the Crystal Desert and Weh no Su and why can't a Tyrian/Canthan be in Ascended status after the Hunted! quest? Proph/Fact PCs technically would count as being Ascended. They'd be able to go to The Underworld / Fissure of Woe just as if they'd did Augury Rock / Nahpui Quarter. They're not Ascended in terms of lore, but neither is literally every NF NPC and half the henchmen; they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics. Ascension was just a limitation placed on The Underworld and Fissure of Woe because they were **elite missions**, which means end-game content. It was a means of isolating those two zones to players who've gone through at least half of the game. In Prophecies, Augury Rock (aka Ascension) was required to get the last 30 attribute points. The idea was that The Underworld and Fissure of Woe, the end-game of PvE content at the time, would be balanced for players who have completed those 30 attribute quests and could change their secondary professions. That's it. That's literally it. It was a mechanical decision, not a lore one. If Ascension existed in Elona's lore, it would have been mentioned at some point, not left for tinfoil hat theorists to come up. Jeff Grubb even outright stated they did the mechanical ascension thing tied to Hunted! because they were tired to repeating the whole Ascension/Weh no Su every time, and didn't want to do that yet again (though in all honesty, they could have tied it to killing The Blasphemy or something). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial. > > The only fact being ignored is that Elonian characters being treated as Ascended is mechanical, not canonical. Ie, it would have too big of a PITA to actually enforce the lore-established rules of Ascension for heroes and Elonian PCs, so they just ignored them, but it doesn't actually mean anything. Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended. > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > The Ascension is not tied with the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that. The Prophesy lead to the Crystal Desert because of two things; 1) Tombs of the Primeval Kings and 2) Glint's Lair. > > The prophecy literally says: > Those who seek audience with the gods > > That's referring to Ascension. > The context of my reply is based on your assumption that it has to be done in the Desert. We were talking about location, not if the Ascension is ever mentioned or referred to in the Prophesy. If you re-read my reply within that context, I am talking about the location of "the Ascension is not tied to the Prophesy, the Canthan Ascension is proof of that." I hope it's clear this time. Sorry for the confusion. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Why would the Prophesy lead Elonians or Tyrians somewhere else if they need to meet Glint and enter the Tombs afterwards? The most logical location for the Ascension is where Glint is and conveniently where the Tombs is located. > > The prophecy does talk about the Forgotten and Glint, but never mentions the Chosen needing to meet them. Same with the Tomb events - kitten goes on, but nothing about the Chosen there. > Turai said it, not the Prophesy; _"I know that those who Ascend are destined for greatness. And I know that it will be I who leads them through the treacherous afterlife to the top of the Hall of Heroes."_ _"But if you wish to know more, then you should ask the one who had the premonitions, the Prophet."_ _"Her name is Glint, and she is quite old, even for a dragon."_ Turai mentioned the Halls, which is located in the Mist through the Tombs. Also the fact that the Chosen is transported to Dragon's Lair is evidence that the location of the Ascension is for Glint's convenience. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Ascension can only happen through two means known to the people living in Central Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. One is through Augury Rock, or through the Celestials. One is mobile, the other isn't. > > > > > > Besides, technically speaking, Weh no Su might actually be different from Ascension, even if it results in similar effects on the body and soul. > > > > > > > That train of thought just open up the possibility that Elonians might have establish a different way to Ascend, their own Weh noSu, without actually going through the Ascension process or trials. The fact that they don't need to physically go through the Ascension process is proof that they have found a way to Ascend. > > Sure, if there was literally any evidence to support the claim. Spoiler alter: there isn't. > There isn't or you're just ignoring them for your own convenience. Proof #1) Elonians can go into the Mist without Ascension ritual Proof #2) Non-Ascended Tyrian and Canthan cannot go into the Mist Proof #3) Bringing Tyrian and Canthan to Elona doesn't make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest What more do you want? > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > The only fact that is being ignored is the fact that entering the Realm is proof that they have Ascended. I never said that are "magically automatically Ascended", I said that they have found a way to Ascend without going through the process or trial. > > It would only be proof they have Ascended if and only if Ascending was needed to enter the Mists. > > It's a simple logic problem. You have three statements, A, B, and C: > > A. Only those who are Ascended can physically enter the Mists. (Assumed) > B. Elonian heroes have not Ascended. (Fact) > C. Elonian heroes have physically entered the Mists. (Fact) > > Since all three being true is contradicting, one of the three statements must be false. The first statement is assumed, based purely off of mechanics; the second and third statements are facts. > > And your assumption comes from this: > > "People seek the aid of Grenth for many reasons. Do you dedicate this offering to one in particular?" > > "Do you seek to serve the God of Death? The challenges you shall face in the Underworld are far greater than any you have experienced in the mortal realm." > "It is recommended you enter with a party of eight Ascended heroes. Do you still wish to enter Grenth's realm with your current group?" > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Voice_of_Grenth > > But this statement does not say Ascension is required. It is **recommended**. > You cannot enter the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld if you have not Ascended. Fun Fact: Hero companions can enter but not the henchmen. I wonder why? > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > If you take a Tyrian or Canthan character to Elona before doing their Ascension and finished the quest Hunted!, these characters would not be Ascended since they are foreign characters. The Ascension in Elona is reserved for Elonians which is another proof that Elonians have found a different way to Ascend (caveat: This is based on the Nightfall game when it was current). > > > > If Ascension isn't required, then why even bother with the Crystal Desert and Weh no Su and why can't a Tyrian/Canthan be in Ascended status after the Hunted! quest? > > Proph/Fact PCs technically would count as being Ascended. They'd be able to go to The Underworld / Fissure of Woe just as if they'd did Augury Rock / Nahpui Quarter. They're not Ascended in terms of lore, but neither is literally every NF NPC and half the henchmen; they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics. > > Ascension was just a limitation placed on The Underworld and Fissure of Woe because they were **elite missions**, which means end-game content. It was a means of isolating those two zones to players who've gone through at least half of the game. In Prophecies, Augury Rock (aka Ascension) was required to get the last 30 attribute points. The idea was that The Underworld and Fissure of Woe, the end-game of PvE content at the time, would be balanced for players who have completed those 30 attribute quests and could change their secondary professions. > > That's it. That's literally it. It was a mechanical decision, not a lore one. > So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists. > If Ascension existed in Elona's lore, it would have been mentioned at some point, not left for tinfoil hat theorists to come up. Jeff Grubb even outright stated they did the mechanical ascension thing tied to Hunted! because they were tired to repeating the whole Ascension/Weh no Su every time, and didn't want to do that yet again (though in all honesty, they could have tied it to killing The Blasphemy or something). Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended. It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't. And this is the lore forum. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Turai said it, not the Prophesy; Because Turai is more accurate about the prophecy _than the prophecy itself_. Right. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > There isn't or you're just ignoring them for your own convenience. > Proof #1) Elonians can go into the Mist without Ascension ritual > Proof #2) Non-Ascended Tyrian and Canthan cannot go into the Mist > Proof #3) Bringing Tyrian and Canthan to Elona doesn't make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest > > What more do you want? "Proof #3" is incorrect. Bringing a Tyrian or Canthan to Elona **DOES** make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest, in terms of accessing the Underworld/Fissure of Woe. It doesn't make **anyone** - even Elonians - Ascended in terms of lore. Because the requirement of Ascension (aka "beat Augury Rock") is not a lore requirement for physically entering the Mists. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > You cannot enter the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld if you have not Ascended. Fun Fact: Hero companions can enter but not the henchmen. I wonder why? You can, if you go through the Nightfall plot and not Prophecies/Factions. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists. That literally has nothing to do with what I said. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars. -sigh- Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended. > It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't. > > And this is the lore forum. > Being Ascended is part of lore. If Elonian's doesn't need Ascension, how are they seeing the Mursaat. Only Ascended heroes gain the Gift of True Sight. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Turai said it, not the Prophesy; > Because Turai is more accurate about the prophecy _than the prophecy itself_. Right. > The Prophesies are just vision, Turai is the interpreter of that vision. How else would he had figured out that Glint is in the Crystal Desert and to conduct that Ascension there? You said it yourself, the Prophesy didn't say anything about the location., which proves that Turai can interpret the Prophesies to an extent. > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > There isn't or you're just ignoring them for your own convenience. > > Proof #1) Elonians can go into the Mist without Ascension ritual > > Proof #2) Non-Ascended Tyrian and Canthan cannot go into the Mist > > Proof #3) Bringing Tyrian and Canthan to Elona doesn't make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest > > > > What more do you want? > > "Proof #3" is incorrect. Bringing a Tyrian or Canthan to Elona **DOES** make them Ascended after completing the Hunted! quest, in terms of accessing the Underworld/Fissure of Woe. It doesn't make **anyone** - even Elonians - Ascended in terms of lore. Because the requirement of Ascension (aka "beat Augury Rock") is not a lore requirement for physically entering the Mists. > I'm not just talking about access to the Mist. I'm also talking about other lore related thing about being Ascended. The Gift of True Sight. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > You cannot enter the Fissure of Woe or the Underworld if you have not Ascended. Fun Fact: Hero companions can enter but not the henchmen. I wonder why? > You can, if you go through the Nightfall plot and not Prophecies/Factions. > This is not the case when Nightfall was still current. I need to confirm this tonight. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists. > That literally has nothing to do with what I said. > "They're not Ascended in terms of lore...they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics." They are Ascended in terms of lore, thus they are Ascended in terms of mechanics. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars. > > -sigh- > > Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake. Huh? Crystal Desert is in the continent of Elona. It was ruled by the Primeval Kings of Elona. So yes, Ascension is always been part of Elona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended. > > It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't. > > > > And this is the lore forum. > > > > Being Ascended is part of lore. If Elonian's doesn't need Ascension, how are they seeing the Mursaat. Only Ascended heroes gain the Gift of True Sight. They're not. There are no mursaat in Nightfall. And when doing the Prophecies campaign it's taken as if the previous missions were done. And it's only required to see mursaat who are trying to hide. Saul wasn't Ascended and saw the mursaat just fine. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The Prophesies are just vision, Turai is the interpreter of that vision. How else would he had figured out that Glint is in the Crystal Desert and to conduct that Ascension there? You said it yourself, the Prophesy didn't say anything about the location., which proves that Turai can interpret the Prophesies to an extent. We don't know how Glint came with the prophecy, vision or no, but Turai is not interpreting the vision. He's interpreting the prophecy that was written by Glint who foresaw the future in some manner. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > I'm not just talking about access to the Mist. I'm also talking about other lore related thing about being Ascended. The Gift of True Sight. You were originally. There's nothing related to the Gift of True Sight in Nightfall or Eye of the North. Nothing that requires the NF characters to be Ascended. Your original claim was stating that one must be Ascended to safely and physically enter the Mists and return. This claim is false. Now you're claiming your claim was something else, something that is irrelevant to Elonians. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > This is not the case when Nightfall was still current. I need to confirm this tonight. Yes, it was. > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists. > > That literally has nothing to do with what I said. > > > > "They're not Ascended in terms of lore...they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics." > > They are Ascended in terms of lore, thus they are Ascended in terms of mechanics. There are times when lore != mechanics and vice versa. One of those times is characters "ascending" with the Hunted! quest. That doesn't change that Ascension in terms of lore has nothing to do with the mechanical limitations that ArenaNet placed to require completing mechanically-Ascension-giving if-then-else clauses. Specifically, entering The Underworld and Fissure of Woe maps required completing Augury Rock (and later, Naphui Quarter or Hunted!), and was telegraphed through what Augury Rock's mission represents, but it was never a lore requirement to enter those areas, just a mechanical ones. So the statement that "In lore, Ascension is needed to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see mursaat or other hidden things" has literally zero barring on my statement about the mechanical limitation on accessing the elite missions dubbed The Underworld and The Fissure of Woe. > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars. > > > > -sigh- > > > > Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake. > > Huh? Crystal Desert is in the continent of Elona. It was ruled by the Primeval Kings of Elona. So yes, Ascension is always been part of Elona. Check the world map next time you log in. Which one is it on? Ah, yes, Tyria. Besides, you know from the context of the discussion, that we were both talking about Elona proper - the three provinces of Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi - and not ancient boundaries lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr? The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr? > > The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently. But didn't the Commander undergo the ritual of Ascension to get access to divine fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Ansari.1604 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr? > > > > The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently. > > But didn't the Commander undergo the ritual of Ascension to get access to divine fire? No. [Ogden actually nipped that idea in the bud.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Arcana_Obscura) All we did in that instance was enact a one-time ritual to produce divine fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr? > > > > The Eye of Janthir gifted True Sight to Livia & the Commander during that instance. It's why we had to break its defiance bar whenever Lazarus went invisible. Ascension grants True Sight permanently. > > But didn't the Commander undergo the ritual of Ascension to get access to divine fire? You don't need Ascension to get the Divine Fire. In GW1, you actually receive the Divine Fire prior to the Ascension trial by completing 3 missions in the desert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said: > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > Mechanical, canonical, either way, they have Ascended. > > > It isn't the same though. One is part of lore. The other isn't. > > > > > > And this is the lore forum. > > > > > > > Being Ascended is part of lore. If Elonian's doesn't need Ascension, how are they seeing the Mursaat. Only Ascended heroes gain the Gift of True Sight. > They're not. There are no mursaat in Nightfall. And when doing the Prophecies campaign it's taken as if the previous missions were done. > I wasn't talking about the Prophesies event in particular. The Nighfall event was on 1075 AE, the War in Kryta event was on 1079 AE where Elonians are helping Princess Salma to repel the White Mantle. Elonian, if not Ascended, should not been able to see the Mursaat during the missions. > And it's only required to see mursaat who are trying to hide. Saul wasn't Ascended and saw the mursaat just fine. > Mursaat can choose to manifest among their faithful followers. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > The Prophesies are just vision, Turai is the interpreter of that vision. How else would he had figured out that Glint is in the Crystal Desert and to conduct that Ascension there? You said it yourself, the Prophesy didn't say anything about the location., which proves that Turai can interpret the Prophesies to an extent. > We don't know how Glint came with the prophecy, vision or no, but Turai is not interpreting the vision. He's interpreting the prophecy that was written by Glint who foresaw the future in some manner. > The Prophesies are Glint's visions. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > I'm not just talking about access to the Mist. I'm also talking about other lore related thing about being Ascended. The Gift of True Sight. > You were originally. > > There's nothing related to the Gift of True Sight in Nightfall or Eye of the North. Nothing that requires the NF characters to be Ascended. Your original claim was stating that one must be Ascended to safely and physically enter the Mists and return. This claim is false. Now you're claiming your claim was something else, something that is irrelevant to Elonians. > War in Kryta, GW Beyond missions. The Gift of True Sight is relevant for both, the Mist and the Mursaat due to Ascension. NF heroes are fighting the Mursaat in those missions. And please don't misrepresent my claim. My initial claim was, "the only human that can come back from the Mist are the Ascended ones" which is true. Just because the Devs got lazy and didn't add an Ascension ritual in NF doesn't necessarily means that the heroes are not Ascended. There are so many proofs that the NF heroes are Ascended you're just trying to deny them. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > This is not the case when Nightfall was still current. I need to confirm this tonight. > Yes, it was. > I digress this point since it will take some time before I get to that point. > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > So not true. In the lore, Ascension is need to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see the Mursaat and other hidden things just like the ones in the Mists. > > > That literally has nothing to do with what I said. > > > > > > > "They're not Ascended in terms of lore...they are, however, Ascended in terms of mechanics." > > > > They are Ascended in terms of lore, thus they are Ascended in terms of mechanics. > > There are times when lore != mechanics and vice versa. One of those times is characters "ascending" with the Hunted! quest. > > That doesn't change that Ascension in terms of lore has nothing to do with the mechanical limitations that ArenaNet placed to require completing mechanically-Ascension-giving if-then-else clauses. Specifically, entering The Underworld and Fissure of Woe maps required completing Augury Rock (and later, Naphui Quarter or Hunted!), and was telegraphed through what Augury Rock's mission represents, but it was never a lore requirement to enter those areas, just a mechanical ones. > > So the statement that "In lore, Ascension is needed to gain the Gift of True Sight in order to see mursaat or other hidden things" has literally zero barring on my statement about the mechanical limitation on accessing the elite missions dubbed The Underworld and The Fissure of Woe. > The mechanical limitation is based on the lore. The GW manuscript states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world into the immaterial. It was the Land of the Dead, an exclusive club whose membership cost the blood of one's own life. **But within the last century all that has changed.**" It is describing the Ascension ritual where non-dead humans can go to the Mist, then to the Rift, then to the Halls. > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > Ascension do exists in Elona's lore. Why do you think they do a pilgrimage to the desert? Why do you think Turai went there in the first place? The Prophesy was introduced to the Eloniana because Tyrians are too busy getting at eachother's throat, aka the Guild Wars. > > > > > > -sigh- > > > > > > Ignoring the last statement which is beyond unfounded, you proclaimed that there was a method of Ascension in Elona itself. That is what I was referring to, not people knowing about Ascension, but there not being a method of Ascension (or similar) in Elona. Crystal Desert != Elona, for clarity's sake. > > > > Huh? Crystal Desert is in the continent of Elona. It was ruled by the Primeval Kings of Elona. So yes, Ascension is always been part of Elona. > > Check the world map next time you log in. Which one is it on? Ah, yes, Tyria. > > Besides, you know from the context of the discussion, that we were both talking about Elona proper - the three provinces of Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi - and not ancient boundaries lore. Sorry but the Flameseeker Prophesies predates the provinces of Elona by hundreds of years. Which means the Ascension process has been known in Elona for a very long time. Turai learned about it after studying ancient wisdom in Elona. Ancient wisdom means, they are oral tradition passed down for generations. The Tombs of the past Elonian kings is located in the Crystal Desert because it is part of Elona. Why would they bury the Primeval Kings of Elona in Tyria? That makes zero sense. Only after the Great Dynasty ended that the provinces of Istan, Kourna, and Vabbi existed. If you click on the context of [Tyria](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tyria "Tyria") from the wiki, you'll find this, "Crystal Desert - Vast desert on the boundary with the nation of Elona." Then if you click on [Elona](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elona "Elona"), you'll find this, "The Crystal Desert lies north of Elona" -- it's always been part of Elona. Mechanically for GW1, the Crystal Desert is part of Tyria -- mechanically. However lore-wise, the Crystal Desert is always been part of Elona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > The GW manuscript states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world into the immaterial. It was the Land of the Dead, an exclusive club whose membership cost the blood of one's own life. **But within the last century all that has changed.**" The wiki says: "Originally, it was only those very souls who had access to the Hall of Heroes and the Rift. In 851 AE, using a spell of his own creation and with countless sacrifices, Lord Odran had opened permanent portals granting him access to the Rift, which in turn granted him access to the Hall of Heroes and countless worlds within The Mists. Enraged at their prized afterlife being defiled by a mortal researchers, the souls of the Hall of Heroes attacked Lord Odran with their collective might, but had long since forgotten how to interact with the physical world. For years, Lord Odran traveled the Rift, and the Hall of Heroes, across the multiverse. Eventually, the spirits of the Hall had discovered a way to interact with the corporeal world. When Odran had returned to the Hall, they tore the wizard lord to shreds in desire of retribution for his trespasses. Lord Odran's death, however, unveiled the numerous protections he had left over his portals, granting any mortal able to reach them free access to the Mists. For over two centuries, tournaments were held at some of these portals, such as the one placed in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where mortals fought to impress the legends of old. Though initially enraged by trespassers, the souls found enjoyment at watching, and even guiding, these tournament." IOW, it suggests that it was the death of Odran and subsequent discovery of his portals that changed everything, not Ascension (which only a few characters, including the protagonists, ever canonically underwent) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"perilisk.1874" said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > The GW manuscript states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world into the immaterial. It was the Land of the Dead, an exclusive club whose membership cost the blood of one's own life. **But within the last century all that has changed.**" > > The wiki says: > > "Originally, it was only those very souls who had access to the Hall of Heroes and the Rift. In 851 AE, using a spell of his own creation and with countless sacrifices, Lord Odran had opened permanent portals granting him access to the Rift, which in turn granted him access to the Hall of Heroes and countless worlds within The Mists. Enraged at their prized afterlife being defiled by a mortal researchers, the souls of the Hall of Heroes attacked Lord Odran with their collective might, but had long since forgotten how to interact with the physical world. For years, Lord Odran traveled the Rift, and the Hall of Heroes, across the multiverse. Eventually, the spirits of the Hall had discovered a way to interact with the corporeal world. When Odran had returned to the Hall, they tore the wizard lord to shreds in desire of retribution for his trespasses. > > Lord Odran's death, however, unveiled the numerous protections he had left over his portals, granting any mortal able to reach them free access to the Mists. For over two centuries, tournaments were held at some of these portals, such as the one placed in the Tomb of the Primeval Kings, where mortals fought to impress the legends of old. Though initially enraged by trespassers, the souls found enjoyment at watching, and even guiding, these tournament." > > IOW, it suggests that it was the death of Odran and subsequent discovery of his portals that changed everything, not Ascension (which only a few characters, including the protagonists, ever canonically underwent) > You have to re-read it carefully. It states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world... It was the Land of the Dead..." -- meaning you have to be dead to get there. So what changed? Mortals gaining access to the Hall, specifically the Ascended, changed all that. Turai can't go to the Hall without Ascending, which is weird but that is the case of his predicament. He said, _"The Chosen ones will come and help me gain access to the Mists and pass into the Hall of Heroes"_ _"I was one of the Chosen. But I passed from this world before I could rise to Ascension"_ _"The tests of Ascension can only be performed by mortals."_ _"I know that it will be I who leads them (The Chosen) through the treacherous afterlife to the top of the Hall of Heroes"_ Just like the Great Zehtuka, Lord Odran had done things that only Ascended mortals can do and we have little information about them. The only thing we can use is what happened to the Chosen and the trial they have to go through to enter the Mist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perilisk.1874 Posted February 5, 2019 Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > You have to re-read it carefully. It states, "For a long while, the Rift and the Hall of Heroes were accessible only by those who had passed from the mortal world... It was the Land of the Dead..." -- meaning you have to be dead to get there. So what changed? Mortals gaining access to the Hall, specifically the Ascended, changed all that. It seems (edit: _that it is referring to the same situation as the other passage, which is pretty clearly_) saying that mortals gained access to the Hall of Heroes en masse by utilizing Odran's portal. Ascension had nothing to do with it. I don't think canon rules out that the Chosen and Weh No Su were more than one person, but they wouldn't have been more than a few individuals, and they were a little too busy saving the world to run off and fight a tournament in the Mists. Fissure of Woe and Underworld are a little different, since access was granted by the gods' avatars to those they deemed worthy, and Ascension was a means to demonstrate that worthiness. But that means that the relationship of Ascension and the Mists was more about being granted a permission, not obtaining a metaphysical capability to walk the Mists. But to use a simpler example -- there are very few, if any, Ascended individuals in the world (Livia, maybe) -- though PoF shows that some people are still seeking that status. Despite that, every racial city has NPCs talking about their time fighting in the Mist War. Are they Ascended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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