Obtena.7952 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > @"Absconditus.6804" said: > > > > > > > > There's different options for builds. You can do Glint+Ventari for support/healing, Renegade+Ventari for support/healing, Ventari+Jalis for support/healing, Shiro+Jalis for DPS, Shiro+Glint for DPS, Shiro+Renegade for DPS, Renegade+Mallyx for Condi, Herald+Mallyx for Condi to name a few build options. While some builds are more efficient, that doesn't mean you can't experiment and run different combinations that are perfectly viable to mix things up. Don't be a meta slave, experiment and come up with your own fun builds with different weapons, sigils, runes, traits and stats combinations. You'll enjoy the game more. Just keep a meta set in backup for when you want to do the elitist content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well im not meta slave its just when the gap between meta and effective is the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, it sounds like you are a meta slave, otherwise you wouldn't be asking questions like "Can I play yet?"; only meta slaves think that way to begin with. The bottom line is that nothing prevents you from playing how you want, except you, regardless of whatever gaps exists between meta and non-meta builds. That's you're hang up. > > > > > > > > > > > > The current 'state' is that Renegade is highly desirable in PVE and if you are **really** capable, Revenant is no slouch in PVP either. If you have hang ups about 'lacking builds', GW2 in general isn't a game for you to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > Why would I care what you think after all your constant trolling? You literally came here to flame. The bottom line is when there is a gap its an issue I do not care what you think about it, if there is a gap its not my hang up its a balance issue period. If its noticeable and not as fun I wont play it thats the real bottom line and its not for you to dictate any of it. > > > > > > > > Clearly, I'm not the only person who's opinion you don't care about considering all the advise and information you are dismissing from people trying to give you reasonable answers. > > > > > > > > There is no issue with having a gap between non-meta and meta builds ... that doesn't even make sense to think that's a problem in the first place. That's not a balancing issue at all, it's simply reflective of the fact that there are builds that are optimal and others that are not. That's just a result of having choices to make. If it's not fun for you to play a build, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's a problem with the game. Don't mix what is fun with performance; one is subjective and the other is not. > > > > > > > > Bottomline is that no one can tell you what is 'fun', you need to play to figure that out for yourself ... but I have the feeling you already knew that coming into this thread anyways. > > > > > >It is a balancing issue. When your not performing in an effective way its not just subjective thats like saying its subjective that it takes u far longer to kill something that someone else defeated 3 mins ago just as an example just stop your making me laugh lol ok well from here on out I wont likely read anything else you have to say your either trolling or trying to lie about the game. > > > > Builds that have a 'gap' from meta builds are not a balancing issue; it's a consequence of how a player uses them. If you can't perform in an effective way with a non-meta build, that's a player problem, not a balance one. Effective does not equate to optimal. > > What? That does not make sense, I do not think you understand me or your trying to do a play on words here, I mean a gap between the meta builds and non meta builds **a big one** because the meta is so much better then the other builds themselves at max performance, this is no the case with every class or meta build either nor did I claim that the rev has this issue I said if it is there then I have no interest in it and it has been known to happen in this game when I played before but I do not know as I have yet to test them geeeesh! Ridiculous your even arguing this with me. It's big one? OK, how big is it then? How much better are those meta builds than the non-meta ones? How do you know it's 'a big one'? Have you ever seen anyone quantify every non-meta build against it's meta counterparts? I know you haven't ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Absconditus.6804" said: > > > > > > > > > There's different options for builds. You can do Glint+Ventari for support/healing, Renegade+Ventari for support/healing, Ventari+Jalis for support/healing, Shiro+Jalis for DPS, Shiro+Glint for DPS, Shiro+Renegade for DPS, Renegade+Mallyx for Condi, Herald+Mallyx for Condi to name a few build options. While some builds are more efficient, that doesn't mean you can't experiment and run different combinations that are perfectly viable to mix things up. Don't be a meta slave, experiment and come up with your own fun builds with different weapons, sigils, runes, traits and stats combinations. You'll enjoy the game more. Just keep a meta set in backup for when you want to do the elitist content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well im not meta slave its just when the gap between meta and effective is the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, it sounds like you are a meta slave, otherwise you wouldn't be asking questions like "Can I play yet?"; only meta slaves think that way to begin with. The bottom line is that nothing prevents you from playing how you want, except you, regardless of whatever gaps exists between meta and non-meta builds. That's you're hang up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current 'state' is that Renegade is highly desirable in PVE and if you are **really** capable, Revenant is no slouch in PVP either. If you have hang ups about 'lacking builds', GW2 in general isn't a game for you to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would I care what you think after all your constant trolling? You literally came here to flame. The bottom line is when there is a gap its an issue I do not care what you think about it, if there is a gap its not my hang up its a balance issue period. If its noticeable and not as fun I wont play it thats the real bottom line and its not for you to dictate any of it. > > > > > > > > > > Clearly, I'm not the only person who's opinion you don't care about considering all the advise and information you are dismissing from people trying to give you reasonable answers. > > > > > > > > > > There is no issue with having a gap between non-meta and meta builds ... that doesn't even make sense to think that's a problem in the first place. That's not a balancing issue at all, it's simply reflective of the fact that there are builds that are optimal and others that are not. That's just a result of having choices to make. If it's not fun for you to play a build, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's a problem with the game. Don't mix what is fun with performance; one is subjective and the other is not. > > > > > > > > > > Bottomline is that no one can tell you what is 'fun', you need to play to figure that out for yourself ... but I have the feeling you already knew that coming into this thread anyways. > > > > > > > >It is a balancing issue. When your not performing in an effective way its not just subjective thats like saying its subjective that it takes u far longer to kill something that someone else defeated 3 mins ago just as an example just stop your making me laugh lol ok well from here on out I wont likely read anything else you have to say your either trolling or trying to lie about the game. > > > > > > Builds that have a 'gap' from meta builds are not a balancing issue; it's a consequence of how a player uses them. If you can't perform in an effective way with a non-meta build, that's a player problem, not a balance one. Effective does not equate to optimal. > > > > What? That does not make sense, I do not think you understand me or your trying to do a play on words here, I mean a gap between the meta builds and non meta builds **a big one** because the meta is so much better then the other builds themselves at max performance, this is no the case with every class or meta build either nor did I claim that the rev has this issue I said if it is there then I have no interest in it and it has been known to happen in this game when I played before but I do not know as I have yet to test them geeeesh! Ridiculous your even arguing this with me. > > It's big one? OK, how big is it then? How much better are those meta builds than the non-meta ones?  Goodbye obtena Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Absconditus.6804" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's different options for builds. You can do Glint+Ventari for support/healing, Renegade+Ventari for support/healing, Ventari+Jalis for support/healing, Shiro+Jalis for DPS, Shiro+Glint for DPS, Shiro+Renegade for DPS, Renegade+Mallyx for Condi, Herald+Mallyx for Condi to name a few build options. While some builds are more efficient, that doesn't mean you can't experiment and run different combinations that are perfectly viable to mix things up. Don't be a meta slave, experiment and come up with your own fun builds with different weapons, sigils, runes, traits and stats combinations. You'll enjoy the game more. Just keep a meta set in backup for when you want to do the elitist content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well im not meta slave its just when the gap between meta and effective is the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, it sounds like you are a meta slave, otherwise you wouldn't be asking questions like "Can I play yet?"; only meta slaves think that way to begin with. The bottom line is that nothing prevents you from playing how you want, except you, regardless of whatever gaps exists between meta and non-meta builds. That's you're hang up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current 'state' is that Renegade is highly desirable in PVE and if you are **really** capable, Revenant is no slouch in PVP either. If you have hang ups about 'lacking builds', GW2 in general isn't a game for you to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would I care what you think after all your constant trolling? You literally came here to flame. The bottom line is when there is a gap its an issue I do not care what you think about it, if there is a gap its not my hang up its a balance issue period. If its noticeable and not as fun I wont play it thats the real bottom line and its not for you to dictate any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly, I'm not the only person who's opinion you don't care about considering all the advise and information you are dismissing from people trying to give you reasonable answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no issue with having a gap between non-meta and meta builds ... that doesn't even make sense to think that's a problem in the first place. That's not a balancing issue at all, it's simply reflective of the fact that there are builds that are optimal and others that are not. That's just a result of having choices to make. If it's not fun for you to play a build, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's a problem with the game. Don't mix what is fun with performance; one is subjective and the other is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bottomline is that no one can tell you what is 'fun', you need to play to figure that out for yourself ... but I have the feeling you already knew that coming into this thread anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It is a balancing issue. When your not performing in an effective way its not just subjective thats like saying its subjective that it takes u far longer to kill something that someone else defeated 3 mins ago just as an example just stop your making me laugh lol ok well from here on out I wont likely read anything else you have to say your either trolling or trying to lie about the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Builds that have a 'gap' from meta builds are not a balancing issue; it's a consequence of how a player uses them. If you can't perform in an effective way with a non-meta build, that's a player problem, not a balance one. Effective does not equate to optimal. > > > > > > > > > > > > What? That does not make sense, I do not think you understand me or your trying to do a play on words here, I mean a gap between the meta builds and non meta builds **a big one** because the meta is so much better then the other builds themselves at max performance, this is no the case with every class or meta build either nor did I claim that the rev has this issue I said if it is there then I have no interest in it and it has been known to happen in this game when I played before but I do not know as I have yet to test them geeeesh! Ridiculous your even arguing this with me. > > > > > > > > > > It's big one? OK, how big is it then? How much better are those meta builds than the non-meta ones? > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > Goodbye obtena > > > > > > > Hello Ryou > > > > > > The fact is that you don't know how non-meta builds perform and neither does anyone else, because no one measures their performance. You're just making things up because someone told you that you shouldn't play 'not effective' non-meta builds and you believe them. > > > > The fact is everytime you troll me I will respond the same way, you are beyond a toxic person. Whatever you say all mighty obtena, in your light we are guided, in your strength we are better, in your knowledge we are enlightened. Everytime. > > That's not a problem. As long as we (or at least I) stay on topic and I'm civil to you, it's all good; how you want this thread to proceed will be entirely up to what your attitude is like, not mine. I don't mind using this opportunity to dispel some very incorrect ideas about how to play and what the meta means in this game and why you don't have to be a slave to it. > > The fact is that meta builds aren't at some level of performance that no other build can touch. This might pain you to hear it, but there are builds that aren't meta that have a very wide range of performance; while anyone can think of absolutely trash builds that are poorly performing, there are many others that come very close to the meta. That happens because meta means optimal play. The idea that if you don't play meta, that you will be sitting there for many extra minutes killing something is just sensational nonsense. A clear example of why people need to actually read what I typed I never disagreed with some of this. But as usual in your light I am guided thank you obtena:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Absconditus.6804" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's different options for builds. You can do Glint+Ventari for support/healing, Renegade+Ventari for support/healing, Ventari+Jalis for support/healing, Shiro+Jalis for DPS, Shiro+Glint for DPS, Shiro+Renegade for DPS, Renegade+Mallyx for Condi, Herald+Mallyx for Condi to name a few build options. While some builds are more efficient, that doesn't mean you can't experiment and run different combinations that are perfectly viable to mix things up. Don't be a meta slave, experiment and come up with your own fun builds with different weapons, sigils, runes, traits and stats combinations. You'll enjoy the game more. Just keep a meta set in backup for when you want to do the elitist content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well im not meta slave its just when the gap between meta and effective is the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, it sounds like you are a meta slave, otherwise you wouldn't be asking questions like "Can I play yet?"; only meta slaves think that way to begin with. The bottom line is that nothing prevents you from playing how you want, except you, regardless of whatever gaps exists between meta and non-meta builds. That's you're hang up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current 'state' is that Renegade is highly desirable in PVE and if you are **really** capable, Revenant is no slouch in PVP either. If you have hang ups about 'lacking builds', GW2 in general isn't a game for you to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would I care what you think after all your constant trolling? You literally came here to flame. The bottom line is when there is a gap its an issue I do not care what you think about it, if there is a gap its not my hang up its a balance issue period. If its noticeable and not as fun I wont play it thats the real bottom line and its not for you to dictate any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly, I'm not the only person who's opinion you don't care about considering all the advise and information you are dismissing from people trying to give you reasonable answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no issue with having a gap between non-meta and meta builds ... that doesn't even make sense to think that's a problem in the first place. That's not a balancing issue at all, it's simply reflective of the fact that there are builds that are optimal and others that are not. That's just a result of having choices to make. If it's not fun for you to play a build, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's a problem with the game. Don't mix what is fun with performance; one is subjective and the other is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bottomline is that no one can tell you what is 'fun', you need to play to figure that out for yourself ... but I have the feeling you already knew that coming into this thread anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It is a balancing issue. When your not performing in an effective way its not just subjective thats like saying its subjective that it takes u far longer to kill something that someone else defeated 3 mins ago just as an example just stop your making me laugh lol ok well from here on out I wont likely read anything else you have to say your either trolling or trying to lie about the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Builds that have a 'gap' from meta builds are not a balancing issue; it's a consequence of how a player uses them. If you can't perform in an effective way with a non-meta build, that's a player problem, not a balance one. Effective does not equate to optimal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? That does not make sense, I do not think you understand me or your trying to do a play on words here, I mean a gap between the meta builds and non meta builds **a big one** because the meta is so much better then the other builds themselves at max performance, this is no the case with every class or meta build either nor did I claim that the rev has this issue I said if it is there then I have no interest in it and it has been known to happen in this game when I played before but I do not know as I have yet to test them geeeesh! Ridiculous your even arguing this with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > It's big one? OK, how big is it then? How much better are those meta builds than the non-meta ones? > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > Goodbye obtena > > > > > > > > > Hello Ryou > > > > > > > > The fact is that you don't know how non-meta builds perform and neither does anyone else, because no one measures their performance. You're just making things up because someone told you that you shouldn't play 'not effective' non-meta builds and you believe them. > > > > > > The fact is everytime you troll me I will respond the same way, you are beyond a toxic person. Whatever you say all mighty obtena, in your light we are guided, in your strength we are better, in your knowledge we are enlightened. Everytime. > > > > That's not a problem. As long as we (or at least I) stay on topic and I'm civil to you, it's all good; how you want this thread to proceed will be entirely up to what your attitude is like, not mine. I don't mind using this opportunity to dispel some very incorrect ideas about how to play and what the meta means in this game and why you don't have to be a slave to it. > > > > The fact is that meta builds aren't at some level of performance that no other build can touch. This might pain you to hear it, but there are builds that aren't meta that have a very wide range of performance; while anyone can think of absolutely trash builds that are poorly performing, there are many others that come very close to the meta. That happens because meta means optimal play. The idea that if you don't play meta, that you will be sitting there for many extra minutes killing something is just sensational nonsense. > A clear example of why people need to actually read what I typed I never disagreed with some of this. But as usual > in your light I am guided thank you obtena:) If you didn't disagree, then why are you arguing that a gap between meta and non-meta builds is so big that it puts you at a massive disadvantage when not playing meta builds? That doesn't make much sense. Seems to me that the only person trolling here is you. The truth is that the gap simply depends on what build choices a player makes and how they use them. Making non-meta choices doesn't guarantee a 'big gap' and making meta choices doesn't guarantee best performance either. I don't get the comprehension problem you're having here; the gap between meta and non builds isn't a balancing problem at all; it's simply the fact that not every skill has the same parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Absconditus.6804" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's different options for builds. You can do Glint+Ventari for support/healing, Renegade+Ventari for support/healing, Ventari+Jalis for support/healing, Shiro+Jalis for DPS, Shiro+Glint for DPS, Shiro+Renegade for DPS, Renegade+Mallyx for Condi, Herald+Mallyx for Condi to name a few build options. While some builds are more efficient, that doesn't mean you can't experiment and run different combinations that are perfectly viable to mix things up. Don't be a meta slave, experiment and come up with your own fun builds with different weapons, sigils, runes, traits and stats combinations. You'll enjoy the game more. Just keep a meta set in backup for when you want to do the elitist content. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well im not meta slave its just when the gap between meta and effective is the problem. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, it sounds like you are a meta slave, otherwise you wouldn't be asking questions like "Can I play yet?"; only meta slaves think that way to begin with. The bottom line is that nothing prevents you from playing how you want, except you, regardless of whatever gaps exists between meta and non-meta builds. That's you're hang up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current 'state' is that Renegade is highly desirable in PVE and if you are **really** capable, Revenant is no slouch in PVP either. If you have hang ups about 'lacking builds', GW2 in general isn't a game for you to begin with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why would I care what you think after all your constant trolling? You literally came here to flame. The bottom line is when there is a gap its an issue I do not care what you think about it, if there is a gap its not my hang up its a balance issue period. If its noticeable and not as fun I wont play it thats the real bottom line and its not for you to dictate any of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly, I'm not the only person who's opinion you don't care about considering all the advise and information you are dismissing from people trying to give you reasonable answers. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is no issue with having a gap between non-meta and meta builds ... that doesn't even make sense to think that's a problem in the first place. That's not a balancing issue at all, it's simply reflective of the fact that there are builds that are optimal and others that are not. That's just a result of having choices to make. If it's not fun for you to play a build, that's fine, but don't pretend that it's a problem with the game. Don't mix what is fun with performance; one is subjective and the other is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bottomline is that no one can tell you what is 'fun', you need to play to figure that out for yourself ... but I have the feeling you already knew that coming into this thread anyways. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >It is a balancing issue. When your not performing in an effective way its not just subjective thats like saying its subjective that it takes u far longer to kill something that someone else defeated 3 mins ago just as an example just stop your making me laugh lol ok well from here on out I wont likely read anything else you have to say your either trolling or trying to lie about the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Builds that have a 'gap' from meta builds are not a balancing issue; it's a consequence of how a player uses them. If you can't perform in an effective way with a non-meta build, that's a player problem, not a balance one. Effective does not equate to optimal. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What? That does not make sense, I do not think you understand me or your trying to do a play on words here, I mean a gap between the meta builds and non meta builds **a big one** because the meta is so much better then the other builds themselves at max performance, this is no the case with every class or meta build either nor did I claim that the rev has this issue I said if it is there then I have no interest in it and it has been known to happen in this game when I played before but I do not know as I have yet to test them geeeesh! Ridiculous your even arguing this with me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's big one? OK, how big is it then? How much better are those meta builds than the non-meta ones? > > > > > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > Goodbye obtena > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Ryou > > > > > > > > > > The fact is that you don't know how non-meta builds perform and neither does anyone else, because no one measures their performance. You're just making things up because someone told you that you shouldn't play 'not effective' non-meta builds and you believe them. > > > > > > > > The fact is everytime you troll me I will respond the same way, you are beyond a toxic person. Whatever you say all mighty obtena, in your light we are guided, in your strength we are better, in your knowledge we are enlightened. Everytime. > > > > > > That's not a problem. As long as we (or at least I) stay on topic and I'm civil to you, it's all good; how you want this thread to proceed will be entirely up to what your attitude is like, not mine. I don't mind using this opportunity to dispel some very incorrect ideas about how to play and what the meta means in this game and why you don't have to be a slave to it. > > > > > > The fact is that meta builds aren't at some level of performance that no other build can touch. This might pain you to hear it, but there are builds that aren't meta that have a very wide range of performance; while anyone can think of absolutely trash builds that are poorly performing, there are many others that come very close to the meta. That happens because meta means optimal play. The idea that if you don't play meta, that you will be sitting there for many extra minutes killing something is just sensational nonsense. > > A clear example of why people need to actually read what I typed I never disagreed with some of this. But as usual > > in your light I am guided thank you obtena:) > > If you didn't disagree, then why are you arguing that a gap between meta and non-meta builds is so big that it puts you at a massive disadvantage when not playing meta builds? That doesn't make much sense. Seems to me that the only person trolling here is you. > > The truth is that the gap simply depends on what build choices a player makes and how they use them. Making non-meta choices doesn't guarantee a 'big gap' and making meta choices doesn't guarantee best performance either. I don't get the comprehension problem you're having here; the gap between meta and non builds isn't a balancing problem at all; it's simply the fact that not every skill has the same parameters. In your strength we are protected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > Ummm yes it does because the utilities come with the weapons and you cannot simply change them so anyone can easily see how something like that is harder to balance only a few builds is still not as good as spot as other classes. I already know the mechanics and things about rev but thanks? I do not see lack of builds as advantage seems to me your trying to make it sound better then it is for some odd reason oh well. Utilities come with the weapons? Are you sure you got that right? Utilities come with the Legends. Still, you are mistaken on the balance front. The issue with Revenant builds is not balance related, so to speak. It's mechanic restricted. Revenant will never have the number of metabuilds that most other professions get. This isn't due to balance. This isn't due to weaker skills. This is due to how skills are chosen in this profession. If Revenant worked like everyone else it would have a higher metabuild count. It doesn't though. 100% we are not dealing with a balance problem here. If you think Revenant is not in as good spot as the other professions due to build count then you really aren't understanding Revenant. All things considered, Revenant is still in a nice spot. Comparing it to other professions is pointless. Most Revenant players play the profession because they like what it does, not how many meta builds it has. You may not see a lack of builds as an advantage but it can be. Like I said, for people who are good at theorycraft they are capable of using the lack of builds against other people. For a person tied to metabuilds from other sites then yeah, it sucks. The lack of meta builds is only a disadvantage for people who rely on sites like metabattle to do build craft. For anyone else, it's an advantage as it makes them unpredictable. Why do you think the higher people get in PvP the more closely they guard their build? Because they don't want others duplicating what they can do and thus making people familiar on how to counter it. The builds you see on sites like metabattle are not an exhaustive list. It's a snapshot. There are plenty of builds capable of doing well in the meta that don't get posted online. If somoene thinks they've figured out a way to win that no one else has they may not be inclined to share it with others for fear that, as I said, people will figure out how to beat it. Having a lot of metabuilds is great and all but all those metabuilds that are posted online also means people can study how to counter them. I actually don't need to make Revenant sound better. Hands down it is better than you are implying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > Ummm yes it does because the utilities come with the weapons and you cannot simply change them so anyone can easily see how something like that is harder to balance only a few builds is still not as good as spot as other classes. I already know the mechanics and things about rev but thanks? I do not see lack of builds as advantage seems to me your trying to make it sound better then it is for some odd reason oh well. > > Utilities come with the weapons? Are you sure you got that right? Utilities come with the Legends. Still, you are mistaken on the balance front. The issue with Revenant builds is not balance related, so to speak. It's mechanic restricted. Revenant will never have the number of metabuilds that most other professions get. This isn't due to balance. This isn't due to weaker skills. This is due to how skills are chosen in this profession. If Revenant worked like everyone else it would have a higher metabuild count. It doesn't though. 100% we are not dealing with a balance problem here. If you think Revenant is not in as good spot as the other professions due to build count then you really aren't understanding Revenant. > > All things considered, Revenant is still in a nice spot. Comparing it to other professions is pointless. Most Revenant players play the profession because they like what it does, not how many meta builds it has. You may not see a lack of builds as an advantage but it can be. Like I said, for people who are good at theorycraft they are capable of using the lack of builds against other people. For a person tied to metabuilds from other sites then yeah, it sucks. The lack of meta builds is only a disadvantage for people who rely on sites like metabattle to do build craft. For anyone else, it's an advantage as it makes them unpredictable. Why do you think the higher people get in PvP the more closely they guard their build? Because they don't want others duplicating what they can do and thus making people familiar on how to counter it. The builds you see on sites like metabattle are not an exhaustive list. It's a snapshot. There are plenty of builds capable of doing well in the meta that don't get posted online. If somoene thinks they've figured out a way to win that no one else has they may not be inclined to share it with others for fear that, as I said, people will figure out how to beat it. Having a lot of metabuilds is great and all but all those metabuilds that are posted online also means people can study how to counter them. > > I actually don't need to make Revenant sound better. Hands down it is better than you are implying. > > > > Yes I was wrong its been a long time since I touched my rev, but lets be honest here if these builds really did exist then why do I hardly ever see any? The only builds ive seen here are on the metabattle.com that people talked about, yes its possible there are builds that no one makes public, but the chances of that are kind of slim people share those most of the time and it would have been on youtube or something, sorry but thats just something that needs more proof really. Also I am not just talking about pve btw, and those non meta builds are unpredictable but many are also severely flawed and do not always work in pvp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > Ummm yes it does because the utilities come with the weapons and you cannot simply change them so anyone can easily see how something like that is harder to balance only a few builds is still not as good as spot as other classes. I already know the mechanics and things about rev but thanks? I do not see lack of builds as advantage seems to me your trying to make it sound better then it is for some odd reason oh well. > > > > Utilities come with the weapons? Are you sure you got that right? Utilities come with the Legends. Still, you are mistaken on the balance front. The issue with Revenant builds is not balance related, so to speak. It's mechanic restricted. Revenant will never have the number of metabuilds that most other professions get. This isn't due to balance. This isn't due to weaker skills. This is due to how skills are chosen in this profession. If Revenant worked like everyone else it would have a higher metabuild count. It doesn't though. 100% we are not dealing with a balance problem here. If you think Revenant is not in as good spot as the other professions due to build count then you really aren't understanding Revenant. > > > > All things considered, Revenant is still in a nice spot. Comparing it to other professions is pointless. Most Revenant players play the profession because they like what it does, not how many meta builds it has. You may not see a lack of builds as an advantage but it can be. Like I said, for people who are good at theorycraft they are capable of using the lack of builds against other people. For a person tied to metabuilds from other sites then yeah, it sucks. The lack of meta builds is only a disadvantage for people who rely on sites like metabattle to do build craft. For anyone else, it's an advantage as it makes them unpredictable. Why do you think the higher people get in PvP the more closely they guard their build? Because they don't want others duplicating what they can do and thus making people familiar on how to counter it. The builds you see on sites like metabattle are not an exhaustive list. It's a snapshot. There are plenty of builds capable of doing well in the meta that don't get posted online. If somoene thinks they've figured out a way to win that no one else has they may not be inclined to share it with others for fear that, as I said, people will figure out how to beat it. Having a lot of metabuilds is great and all but all those metabuilds that are posted online also means people can study how to counter them. > > > > I actually don't need to make Revenant sound better. Hands down it is better than you are implying. > > > > > > > > > > Yes I was wrong its been a long time since I touched my rev, but lets be honest here if these builds really did exist then why do I hardly ever see any? The only builds ive seen here are on the metabattle.com that people talked about, yes its possible there are builds that no one makes public, but the chances of that are kind of slim people share those most of the time and it would have been on youtube or something, sorry but thats just something that needs more proof really. Also I am not just talking about pve btw, and those non meta builds are unpredictable but many are also severely flawed and do not always work in pvp. Actually, the builds that people are least familiar with in PVP (the non-meta ones) are the ones that trip the poor-to-averege people up the most. Only really good PVPers know how to respond to things or adapt to things quickly that they haven't seen before. If there is any game mode where meta builds caps your progress, it's PVP. On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > > > > > Ummm yes it does because the utilities come with the weapons and you cannot simply change them so anyone can easily see how something like that is harder to balance only a few builds is still not as good as spot as other classes. I already know the mechanics and things about rev but thanks? I do not see lack of builds as advantage seems to me your trying to make it sound better then it is for some odd reason oh well. > > > > > > Utilities come with the weapons? Are you sure you got that right? Utilities come with the Legends. Still, you are mistaken on the balance front. The issue with Revenant builds is not balance related, so to speak. It's mechanic restricted. Revenant will never have the number of metabuilds that most other professions get. This isn't due to balance. This isn't due to weaker skills. This is due to how skills are chosen in this profession. If Revenant worked like everyone else it would have a higher metabuild count. It doesn't though. 100% we are not dealing with a balance problem here. If you think Revenant is not in as good spot as the other professions due to build count then you really aren't understanding Revenant. > > > > > > All things considered, Revenant is still in a nice spot. Comparing it to other professions is pointless. Most Revenant players play the profession because they like what it does, not how many meta builds it has. You may not see a lack of builds as an advantage but it can be. Like I said, for people who are good at theorycraft they are capable of using the lack of builds against other people. For a person tied to metabuilds from other sites then yeah, it sucks. The lack of meta builds is only a disadvantage for people who rely on sites like metabattle to do build craft. For anyone else, it's an advantage as it makes them unpredictable. Why do you think the higher people get in PvP the more closely they guard their build? Because they don't want others duplicating what they can do and thus making people familiar on how to counter it. The builds you see on sites like metabattle are not an exhaustive list. It's a snapshot. There are plenty of builds capable of doing well in the meta that don't get posted online. If somoene thinks they've figured out a way to win that no one else has they may not be inclined to share it with others for fear that, as I said, people will figure out how to beat it. Having a lot of metabuilds is great and all but all those metabuilds that are posted online also means people can study how to counter them. > > > > > > I actually don't need to make Revenant sound better. Hands down it is better than you are implying. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I was wrong its been a long time since I touched my rev, but lets be honest here if these builds really did exist then why do I hardly ever see any? The only builds ive seen here are on the metabattle.com that people talked about, yes its possible there are builds that no one makes public, but the chances of that are kind of slim people share those most of the time and it would have been on youtube or something, sorry but thats just something that needs more proof really. Also I am not just talking about pve btw, and those non meta builds are unpredictable but many are also severely flawed and do not always work in pvp. > > Actually, the builds that people are least familiar with in PVP (the non-meta ones) are the ones that trip the poor-to-averege people up the most. Only really good PVPers know how to respond to things or adapt to things quickly that they haven't seen before. If there is any game mode where meta builds caps your progress, it's PVP. > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcx.3570 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"narcx.3570" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. hmmmm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"narcx.3570" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. There are other ways to get tools you don't have. PVP isn't just a duel. People ignore the strategic. I mean, there is a balance between the unpredictable and the fundamental. As was mentioned, the best PVPers don't tell you their builds or their ideas on how to fight. The basic message is that if you only play meta in PVP, you're going to hit a ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. > > > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. > > > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. > > > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. > > There are other ways to get tools you don't have. PVP isn't just a duel. People ignore the strategic. I mean, there is a balance between the unpredictable and the fundamental. As was mentioned, the best PVPers don't tell you their builds or their ideas on how to fight. The basic message is that if you only play meta in PVP, you're going to hit a ceiling. ? The best pvpers do tell builds and talk about decisions they make. Some of them stream. Sindrener for example likes to talk about what is happening and why he is doing what he is doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Justine.6351" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. > > > > > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. > > > > > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. > > > > > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. > > > > There are other ways to get tools you don't have. PVP isn't just a duel. People ignore the strategic. I mean, there is a balance between the unpredictable and the fundamental. As was mentioned, the best PVPers don't tell you their builds or their ideas on how to fight. The basic message is that if you only play meta in PVP, you're going to hit a ceiling. > > ? The best pvpers do tell builds and talk about decisions they make. Some of them stream. Sindrener for example likes to talk about what is happening and why he is doing what he is doing. Sure some of them do. I mean, universally, they are more guarded. Even in other things that are competitive and not gaming, the greats aren't all open about how they beat everyone. The point here is that being predictable doesn't help you in competitive aspects ... of anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcx.3570 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. > > > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. > > > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. > > > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. > > There are other ways to get tools you don't have. PVP isn't just a duel. People ignore the strategic. I mean, there is a balance between the unpredictable and the fundamental. As was mentioned, the best PVPers don't tell you their builds or their ideas on how to fight. The basic message is that if you only play meta in PVP, you're going to hit a ceiling. I mean, with Rev specifically in mind, that's just not true. Especially the higher tier you're playing at and especially outside of duels. In duels, off-meta specs like hybrid mallyx/glint can actually win certain matchups because it comes down to the players. But like, once you're in an actual game, you're either going to be team fighting, or you're going to be decapping/+1'ing. If you're team fighting, you should expect to have target called on you and face a barrage of immobspam, hard cc, and focus fire and there's simply no way to recreate the tools given to you by Glint/Shiro to survive. You can't simply change some traits and run a secret runeset to get back the mobility of Shiro, the window of safety given by Infused Light, or having a useable stunbreak in both stances. Like, the only thing you can even attempt to recreate is a Sigil of Escape to counter one immob/chill/cripple, but that is way not enough. And if you're trying to decap or roam without them... You'll not only be super ineffective at it (no mobility), but you'll also lack the escape tools to avoid getting picked off and left to slowly bleed out between points. Maybe one day anet will bring back the Rune of Surging and we'll actually have another "build" option again--lulz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkantos.7460 Posted February 2, 2019 Share Posted February 2, 2019 play rev only if your high skilled, otherwise your team will flame you all time for doing no dps, doing no team support, playing with hammer , playing with jalis/kalla/mallyx AND if you got succes with your personal build with Kalla/Mallyx/Jalis and WIN FIGHTS AND WIN THE MATCH .... ppl will report you as cheater and botter ..... for real XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 > @"Arkantos.7460" said: > play rev only if your high skilled, otherwise your team will flame you all time for doing no dps, doing no team support, playing with hammer , playing with jalis/kalla/mallyx > AND if you got succes with your personal build with Kalla/Mallyx/Jalis and WIN FIGHTS AND WIN THE MATCH .... ppl will report you as cheater and botter ..... for real XD Thats true they do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > Yes I was wrong its been a long time since I touched my rev, but lets be honest here if these builds really did exist then why do I hardly ever see any? The only builds ive seen here are on the metabattle.com that people talked about, yes its possible there are builds that no one makes public, but the chances of that are kind of slim people share those most of the time and it would have been on youtube or something, sorry but thats just something that needs more proof really. Also I am not just talking about pve btw, and those non meta builds are unpredictable but many are also severely flawed and do not always work in pvp. *sighs* As I stated in my post, not everyone actually shares their builds. As I said in my post, metabattle is a fraction of the possible builds out there. Metabattle, and sites like it, are populated by people who want to share what they have with others, maybe even getting feedback on a larger scale than what a forum would provide for. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that if it does exist the person who made it doesn't feel like sharing. As I stated, one of the reasons top players in faction-based games hold back builds is the fear that if others knew their build they would also know its weaknesses and how to counter it. This is also, inherently, why you shouldn't rely just on meta builds from meta sites but experiment with your own stuff. Developing your own build that is fine-tuned to your own unique style can get you further than just relying on metabattle. Metabattle is great, especially for new people and especially for trying to get a general idea of what is considered good. It, however, is not the end. It is the beginning. If you think the chances are slim then you underestimate high-end competitive play. I can promise you that most people do not share their builds. If that were the case there would be 50% more builds on that site. Considering the overall small amount of builds there, it's clear that not a lot of folks are sharing. Read the comments. Read the authors. You'll notice that there isn't this huge list of individuals but often a fairly stable set of players invested in sharing. That set is infinitely small compared to the size of this games playerbase. If you think it would have been on Youtube then you clearly haven't spent a lot of time in high-end competitive play for most games. Yes, people share. However, not to degree that you think they do. > @"Justine.6351" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. > > > > > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. > > > > > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. > > > > > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. > > > > There are other ways to get tools you don't have. PVP isn't just a duel. People ignore the strategic. I mean, there is a balance between the unpredictable and the fundamental. As was mentioned, the best PVPers don't tell you their builds or their ideas on how to fight. The basic message is that if you only play meta in PVP, you're going to hit a ceiling. > > ? The best pvpers do tell builds and talk about decisions they make. Some of them stream. Sindrener for example likes to talk about what is happening and why he is doing what he is doing. Some do. Not all. The idea that all the best players share their build and talk about them is just silly. Not everyone is generous and high-end competitive play is one of the more toxic aspects in any faction based game. Part of this toxicity derives from just how jealously people guard their secrets so that they can win. I've seen this across multiple games and Guild Wars is not some kind of outlier. This is one of the reasons why when you watch videos from some competitive players you don't always hear the in-game commentary as it happens. Folks like to cover up the strategies their teams are employing. I've watched a lot of those videos where folks are showing off their build and how powerful what they are doing is. I've seen far more videos that are just showing off what is going on than I do ones that lay it out step by step and in which you hear the in-game team speak. Some people do give you pointers and tell you what they are doing. However, far more just show you what is going on and kinda sorta leaves it to you to figure out how to actually replicate what is going on. However, the idea that all of the best pvpers make videos and discuss what they are doing simply isn't true. There would be more videos on Youtube discussing builds than they currently are. Especially in terms of how recent they are. There are far too many vidoes that are 6+ months older, and thus discussing an entirely different meta, than there are builds that are created more recently discussing this meta for it to be the case that the best pvpers all share and talk about their builds. I did a search for Herald PvP vidoes and the most recent one I found (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this) is 4 months old. Then there are a handful of 5 month old videos and then we start hitting a year old which indicates that there was a fairly large gap in video production for Herald PvP tips. There simply is not enough video evidence to support the idea that the best PvPers share their build unless we are going to assume that Sindrener is the only good Revenant player out there. > @"narcx.3570" said: > > I mean, with Rev specifically in mind, that's just not true. Especially the higher tier you're playing at and especially outside of duels. In duels, off-meta specs like hybrid mallyx/glint can actually win certain matchups because it comes down to the players. But like, once you're in an actual game, you're either going to be team fighting, or you're going to be decapping/+1'ing. If you're team fighting, you should expect to have target called on you and face a barrage of immobspam, hard cc, and focus fire and there's simply no way to recreate the tools given to you by Glint/Shiro to survive. You can't simply change some traits and run a secret runeset to get back the mobility of Shiro, the window of safety given by Infused Light, or having a useable stunbreak in both stances. Like, the only thing you can even attempt to recreate is a Sigil of Escape to counter one immob/chill/cripple, but that is way not enough. And if you're trying to decap or roam without them... You'll not only be super ineffective at it (no mobility), but you'll also lack the escape tools to avoid getting picked off and left to slowly bleed out between points. > > Maybe one day anet will bring back the Rune of Surging and we'll actually have another "build" option again--lulz. To be clear, the argument being advanced is that Metabattle does not show us ALL of the potential builds that you could run with Revenant and do well in with PvP. While the number of additional builds may be small considering the limitations placed on Revenant via its mechanics Metabattle, and sites like it, are not giving us a 100% full picture on the potential Revenant has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > Yes I was wrong its been a long time since I touched my rev, but lets be honest here if these builds really did exist then why do I hardly ever see any? The only builds ive seen here are on the metabattle.com that people talked about, yes its possible there are builds that no one makes public, but the chances of that are kind of slim people share those most of the time and it would have been on youtube or something, sorry but thats just something that needs more proof really. Also I am not just talking about pve btw, and those non meta builds are unpredictable but many are also severely flawed and do not always work in pvp. > > *sighs* As I stated in my post, not everyone actually shares their builds. As I said in my post, metabattle is a fraction of the possible builds out there. Metabattle, and sites like it, are populated by people who want to share what they have with others, maybe even getting feedback on a larger scale than what a forum would provide for. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means that if it does exist the person who made it doesn't feel like sharing. As I stated, one of the reasons top players in faction-based games hold back builds is the fear that if others knew their build they would also know its weaknesses and how to counter it. > > This is also, inherently, why you shouldn't rely just on meta builds from meta sites but experiment with your own stuff. Developing your own build that is fine-tuned to your own unique style can get you further than just relying on metabattle. Metabattle is great, especially for new people and especially for trying to get a general idea of what is considered good. It, however, is not the end. It is the beginning. > > If you think the chances are slim then you underestimate high-end competitive play. I can promise you that most people do not share their builds. If that were the case there would be 50% more builds on that site. Considering the overall small amount of builds there, it's clear that not a lot of folks are sharing. Read the comments. Read the authors. You'll notice that there isn't this huge list of individuals but often a fairly stable set of players invested in sharing. That set is infinitely small compared to the size of this games playerbase. If you think it would have been on Youtube then you clearly haven't spent a lot of time in high-end competitive play for most games. Yes, people share. However, not to degree that you think they do. > > > @"Justine.6351" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > On the flip side, this is what makes Revenant a bit of a wild card in PVP. It's more difficult to predict because the philosophy behind the builds is completely different than all the other classes. > > > > > > > > As far as PvP goes, Revenant is basically shackled to one build tho... And this is because you literally need Glint and you absolutely need Shiro, or you *will* die fast. The second you see a Rev swap to a stance that isn't one of those two, you know that you can easily immob/focus/+5points them all game long. And if a Rev is running something goofy like a tanky Jalis wvw zerg setup, hoping to not die so fast--they still will--but as a bonus, you don't even have to kill them as they no longer have the mobility or burst to apply any kind of pressure. > > > > > > > > I mean, maybe in Bronze or something you'll torment bomb some people with Mallyx, or be able to heal through a fight with Ventari, or even cleave up some team fights with Ren/SB, but those are so easily countered and played around that any off-meta success from a rev build drops off hard once you win a few games in a row and get your mmr up a bit. > > > > > > > > To be fair though, most classes only have one or two meta builds... Thats the sort of definition of something being Most Effective At. They have the illusion of a bunch of choices, but realistically everyone is using one or two builds with slight variations, and if they aren't, their team is just as kittened at them as yours would be at you if you were playing Mallyx/Kalla. > > > > > > There are other ways to get tools you don't have. PVP isn't just a duel. People ignore the strategic. I mean, there is a balance between the unpredictable and the fundamental. As was mentioned, the best PVPers don't tell you their builds or their ideas on how to fight. The basic message is that if you only play meta in PVP, you're going to hit a ceiling. > > > > ? The best pvpers do tell builds and talk about decisions they make. Some of them stream. Sindrener for example likes to talk about what is happening and why he is doing what he is doing. > > Some do. Not all. The idea that all the best players share their build and talk about them is just silly. Not everyone is generous and high-end competitive play is one of the more toxic aspects in any faction based game. Part of this toxicity derives from just how jealously people guard their secrets so that they can win. I've seen this across multiple games and Guild Wars is not some kind of outlier. > > This is one of the reasons why when you watch videos from some competitive players you don't always hear the in-game commentary as it happens. Folks like to cover up the strategies their teams are employing. I've watched a lot of those videos where folks are showing off their build and how powerful what they are doing is. I've seen far more videos that are just showing off what is going on than I do ones that lay it out step by step and in which you hear the in-game team speak. Some people do give you pointers and tell you what they are doing. However, far more just show you what is going on and kinda sorta leaves it to you to figure out how to actually replicate what is going on. > > However, the idea that all of the best pvpers make videos and discuss what they are doing simply isn't true. There would be more videos on Youtube discussing builds than they currently are. Especially in terms of how recent they are. There are far too many vidoes that are 6+ months older, and thus discussing an entirely different meta, than there are builds that are created more recently discussing this meta for it to be the case that the best pvpers all share and talk about their builds. I did a search for Herald PvP vidoes and the most recent one I found (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this) is 4 months old. Then there are a handful of 5 month old videos and then we start hitting a year old which indicates that there was a fairly large gap in video production for Herald PvP tips. There simply is not enough video evidence to support the idea that the best PvPers share their build unless we are going to assume that Sindrener is the only good Revenant player out there. > > > @"narcx.3570" said: > > > > I mean, with Rev specifically in mind, that's just not true. Especially the higher tier you're playing at and especially outside of duels. In duels, off-meta specs like hybrid mallyx/glint can actually win certain matchups because it comes down to the players. But like, once you're in an actual game, you're either going to be team fighting, or you're going to be decapping/+1'ing. If you're team fighting, you should expect to have target called on you and face a barrage of immobspam, hard cc, and focus fire and there's simply no way to recreate the tools given to you by Glint/Shiro to survive. You can't simply change some traits and run a secret runeset to get back the mobility of Shiro, the window of safety given by Infused Light, or having a useable stunbreak in both stances. Like, the only thing you can even attempt to recreate is a Sigil of Escape to counter one immob/chill/cripple, but that is way not enough. And if you're trying to decap or roam without them... You'll not only be super ineffective at it (no mobility), but you'll also lack the escape tools to avoid getting picked off and left to slowly bleed out between points. > > > > Maybe one day anet will bring back the Rune of Surging and we'll actually have another "build" option again--lulz. > > To be clear, the argument being advanced is that Metabattle does not show us ALL of the potential builds that you could run with Revenant and do well in with PvP. While the number of additional builds may be small considering the limitations placed on Revenant via its mechanics Metabattle, and sites like it, are not giving us a 100% full picture on the potential Revenant has. > > Sigh, agree to disagree in your response to me, I have experience in countless mmos that say otherwise, and stop assuming I only look at metabattle please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 > @"Dace.8173" said: > However, the idea that all of the best pvpers make videos and discuss what they are doing simply isn't true. There would be more videos on Youtube discussing builds than they currently are. Especially in terms of how recent they are. There are far too many vidoes that are 6+ months older, and thus discussing an entirely different meta, than there are builds that are created more recently discussing this meta for it to be the case that the best pvpers all share and talk about their builds. I did a search for Herald PvP vidoes and the most recent one I found (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this) is 4 months old. Then there are a handful of 5 month old videos and then we start hitting a year old which indicates that there was a fairly large gap in video production for Herald PvP tips. There simply is not enough video evidence to support the idea that the best PvPers share their build unless we are going to assume that Sindrener is the only good Revenant player out there. > I would say that theres not much videos largely due the lack of interest. Even at peak of its popularity GW2's PvP was niche at best, and that was before the end of the big tournaments, the ESL and the extinction of almost every regular YouTube/streaming channel devoted to the competitive aspects of the game. I used to follow a lot of them, but lately just ignore most of the remainers. Metabattle was always weak in the PvP following due lagging behind what was currentle happening, but in the case of the Revenant doesn't matter that much because there's a single good build which from time to time changes the off hand weapon... And that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted February 4, 2019 Share Posted February 4, 2019 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > Sigh, agree to disagree in your response to me, I have experience in countless mmos that say otherwise, and stop assuming I only look at metabattle please. Facts don't lie. Go to Youtube and look at the builds posted there and see how old they are. Most of what you'll find is not in the current meta which indicates that people are not sharing their builds nearly as often as you want to say. You'd have a point if the videos posted were current, but they aren't. Out of date builds is a clear indication that people are not sharing what they have. Also, I did not assume anything. If you'll notice, what I actually said was "Metabattle, and sites like it" which is a clear indication that I am not making any assumptions of what you are using and a clear indication that I am discussing a general theme in the types of websites relevant to the discussion. Which I reinforce by stating meta sites, again not an indication of a specific site you go to. The only other time I mention Metabattle specifically is in relation to its usefulness to new players, again not an indication of a specific site you go to. So I'm not sure why you think I assumed you use Metabattle since my argument is very specific about the fact that I am discussing a type of web page that players at large go to. Hell, there is nothing in my argument that is framed specifically around you. My argument is clearly a discussion about the community at large and not you. The only person who made an assumption was you as you assumed my argument was about you as opposed to what it was clearly about. > @"Buran.3796" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > However, the idea that all of the best pvpers make videos and discuss what they are doing simply isn't true. There would be more videos on Youtube discussing builds than they currently are. Especially in terms of how recent they are. There are far too many vidoes that are 6+ months older, and thus discussing an entirely different meta, than there are builds that are created more recently discussing this meta for it to be the case that the best pvpers all share and talk about their builds. I did a search for Herald PvP vidoes and the most recent one I found (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this) is 4 months old. Then there are a handful of 5 month old videos and then we start hitting a year old which indicates that there was a fairly large gap in video production for Herald PvP tips. There simply is not enough video evidence to support the idea that the best PvPers share their build unless we are going to assume that Sindrener is the only good Revenant player out there. > > > > I would say that theres not much videos largely due the lack of interest. Even at peak of its popularity GW2's PvP was niche at best, and that was before the end of the big tournaments, the ESL and the extinction of almost every regular YouTube/streaming channel devoted to the competitive aspects of the game. I used to follow a lot of them, but lately just ignore most of the remainers. Metabattle was always weak in the PvP following due lagging behind what was currentle happening, but in the case of the Revenant doesn't matter that much because there's a single good build which from time to time changes the off hand weapon... And that's all. I would say that plays a role. The level to which how popular the competitive scene will most certainly have bearing on the number of videos and the frequency at which they are produced. However, even at the height of its popularity, I have some serious doubts that all the possible meta builds were being shared. Some were shared by the more generous players but the folks who placed a higher premium on their win record would spend less time making videos to help other people and more time fine tuning their own work and not bothering to share with others so that people don't figure out its weaknesses. And yeah, Metabattle is not the worlds most current meta build site out there. This is a common problem for player run meta sites as opposed to sites run by the game in question which publishes winning builds from their major tournaments on their web pages. The other aspect that I haven't really touched upon is metabuilds that are basically good because of the player piloting it as opposed to it being super strong. Things that experiment with meta elements and things that make a build meta but putting their own unique spin on it that wouldn't really work for anyone else who isn't at that level of who don't think along the same lines as the author. There are always more viable builds than what meta sites imply for numerous reasons and I find it sad that people think that if you don't see it on a meta site then it must not be possible. Slaves to the meta I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > > > Sigh, agree to disagree in your response to me, I have experience in countless mmos that say otherwise, and stop assuming I only look at metabattle please. > > Facts don't lie. Go to Youtube and look at the builds posted there and see how old they are. Most of what you'll find is not in the current meta which indicates that people are not sharing their builds nearly as often as you want to say. You'd have a point if the videos posted were current, but they aren't. Out of date builds is a clear indication that people are not sharing what they have. > > Also, I did not assume anything. If you'll notice, what I actually said was "Metabattle, and sites like it" which is a clear indication that I am not making any assumptions of what you are using and a clear indication that I am discussing a general theme in the types of websites relevant to the discussion. Which I reinforce by stating meta sites, again not an indication of a specific site you go to. The only other time I mention Metabattle specifically is in relation to its usefulness to new players, again not an indication of a specific site you go to. So I'm not sure why you think I assumed you use Metabattle since my argument is very specific about the fact that I am discussing a type of web page that players at large go to. Hell, there is nothing in my argument that is framed specifically around you. My argument is clearly a discussion about the community at large and not you. The only person who made an assumption was you as you assumed my argument was about you as opposed to what it was clearly about. > > > > > @"Buran.3796" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > However, the idea that all of the best pvpers make videos and discuss what they are doing simply isn't true. There would be more videos on Youtube discussing builds than they currently are. Especially in terms of how recent they are. There are far too many vidoes that are 6+ months older, and thus discussing an entirely different meta, than there are builds that are created more recently discussing this meta for it to be the case that the best pvpers all share and talk about their builds. I did a search for Herald PvP vidoes and the most recent one I found (though I didn't spend a lot of time on this) is 4 months old. Then there are a handful of 5 month old videos and then we start hitting a year old which indicates that there was a fairly large gap in video production for Herald PvP tips. There simply is not enough video evidence to support the idea that the best PvPers share their build unless we are going to assume that Sindrener is the only good Revenant player out there. > > > > > > > I would say that theres not much videos largely due the lack of interest. Even at peak of its popularity GW2's PvP was niche at best, and that was before the end of the big tournaments, the ESL and the extinction of almost every regular YouTube/streaming channel devoted to the competitive aspects of the game. I used to follow a lot of them, but lately just ignore most of the remainers. Metabattle was always weak in the PvP following due lagging behind what was currentle happening, but in the case of the Revenant doesn't matter that much because there's a single good build which from time to time changes the off hand weapon... And that's all. > > I would say that plays a role. The level to which how popular the competitive scene will most certainly have bearing on the number of videos and the frequency at which they are produced. However, even at the height of its popularity, I have some serious doubts that all the possible meta builds were being shared. Some were shared by the more generous players but the folks who placed a higher premium on their win record would spend less time making videos to help other people and more time fine tuning their own work and not bothering to share with others so that people don't figure out its weaknesses. And yeah, Metabattle is not the worlds most current meta build site out there. This is a common problem for player run meta sites as opposed to sites run by the game in question which publishes winning builds from their major tournaments on their web pages. > > The other aspect that I haven't really touched upon is metabuilds that are basically good because of the player piloting it as opposed to it being super strong. Things that experiment with meta elements and things that make a build meta but putting their own unique spin on it that wouldn't really work for anyone else who isn't at that level of who don't think along the same lines as the author. > > There are always more viable builds than what meta sites imply for numerous reasons and I find it sad that people think that if you don't see it on a meta site then it must not be possible. Slaves to the meta I suppose. Your facts, whatever you say buddy have a good life though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted February 7, 2019 Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Ryou.2398" said: > Your facts, whatever you say buddy have a good life though. Well, Youtube facts. There is no such thing as "your facts" and "my facts." There are only facts. I find it silly that people engage in the whole "your facts" when if you go to Youtube and actually do a search on Herald builds you'd see that most of what is on Youtube is out of meta. Why pretend otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryou.2398 Posted February 7, 2019 Author Share Posted February 7, 2019 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > Your facts, whatever you say buddy have a good life though. > > Well, Youtube facts. There is no such thing as "your facts" and "my facts." There are only facts. I find it silly that people engage in the whole "your facts" when if you go to Youtube and actually do a search on Herald builds you'd see that most of what is on Youtube is out of meta. Why pretend otherwise? > > Uh huh whatever you say all mighty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcx.3570 Posted February 10, 2019 Share Posted February 10, 2019 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Ryou.2398" said: > > Your facts, whatever you say buddy have a good life though. > > Well, Youtube facts. There is no such thing as "your facts" and "my facts." There are only facts. I find it silly that people engage in the whole "your facts" when if you go to Youtube and actually do a search on Herald builds you'd see that most of what is on Youtube is out of meta. Why pretend otherwise? > > How could anything Herald related be out of meta...? The meta Herald build hasn't really changed for 2 years, lol. Just for fun, I went and youtube searched "gw2 Herald pvp" and there's about 8 or so videos posted after the Herald rework, and they're basically exactly the same as all the ones before the herald rework. This is because--as everyone keeps saying on this thread--there is only one real, viable Rev pvp spec. It's not because top players are squirreling away their builds... It's because if you're not using Shiro/Glint, you're being a straight-up liability to your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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