Flaming about the Best 1v1 Class in the Game...

[DigiQWill.6378]

I've seen so much flaming about **Mesmers** being overpowered and all, while they aren't the actually best thing to play right now.

 

Sadly, because of most to all of the crying in the forums, new PvPers reroll to Mirage, and they dominate the low levels of ranked. In mid levels of ranked, you see them as a pair in each time, and it usually is the one team who has the best Mesmers that wins the game. In high levels of ranked, you rarely see two Mesmers in a team, to leave space for a more _specialized_

class to take its place. The problem is that most people (not all, really, I've seen some people I recognized from playing against them in PvP) are at maximum mid levels PvPers (that's G2-G3-Low P1) that have little to no knowledge on rotations, map awareness, and prioritizing targets, while only spamming half blindly their skills without knowledge of what each of their skills do. Let me say this : most G2 to low P1 players random dodge if they are in a fight, they don't know how to look through big fights to see if they'll be bursted soon or not, they don't even know how to dodge key skills.

 

All this chit chat brings me to my point : why do you cry about Mesmers overperforming, when really, the true problem is condition Mirage with certain specific traits that is? I see nerfs being called on core traitlines that are not overtuned if it isn't for their synergy with the Mirage traitline. I see condition Mirages crying about X or Y class being overperforming because they didn't learn how to play this game. The problem with Mirage is that it is too easy to pick up and perform, not overperform. I'm a Mesmer main (from being a Thief man more than half a year ago) and I played most to all Meta builds for either Thief or Mesmer (chronobunker and pre-rework deadeye included), and the knowledge I acquired due these two classes combined made me a performing Mesmer in general (I can be shut downed and will be shut downed if I do mistakes).

 

Lately, I have been playing a build I call overperforming due to its excessive success in 2v1s and 1v1s (me being the "1" in the 2v1s), and truly the problem isn't from too much condition application (at least from what I've seen): it's a mix of people forgetting how to play and the build using those times when people make mistakes to my advantage with too much ease. I'm a condition Mirage when I play ranked, the Scepter Wizard's variant, and I win against the arguably best 1v1 class in the game: chaos Condition Mirage. The fact is, people forget that their dodge is a defensive tool and spend all of it to apply pressure at first. Other classes forget that if they pressure me, I'm dead for. But people also forgot how to find the right Mesmer (in general) between the clones.

 

You guys cry because you can't find the right Mesmer, you guys cry because you got wrecked by a Reaper in a teamfight, you guys cry because your Firebrand didn't revive you when he was on another point. Seriously, just what won't you guys cry about?

 

I admit it, condition Mirage is overperforming on some domains, like having such a high evade frame where you can deal damage. But if you learn to counter it, it gets easier and easier to fight it. People have learn-to-play issues and blame it on overtuned aspects that are actually not overpowerred. People that play Mirage (excepted for top tiers and some good ones) usually don't know how to play in general (I arguably am still a beginner after my past year almost solely doing PvP and practicing duels), and have little to no knowledge on how the game works. Here's my simple solution on how to bring Mirage back to a decent, performing state: don't let them evade when they are CCd or Immobilized without them having to spend a bit of their resources. They should act like Thieves in general, and have some performance in 1v1s that can still be qualified as hard counters to other classes, but Mirage Cloak needs a rework in its application. Don't nerf the other traits, don't nerf core traitlines. We already have a GM that lets us evade while CCd or Immobed (Elusive Mind could get some use!), we don't actually need that much sustained damage reduction (we basically have 1 GM that is worth taking, and that's Infinite Horizons).

 

And before the trolls arrive and say that X or Y part of my post makes my whole argument non-applicable, do know that part of an argument relies on the general knowledge of the topic. If you want to troll, learn how to play the game first and I'll then listen to your argument.

[Ryan.9387]

Tldr; I'm good and can 1v2. I also don't have much to say about mirage and will call anyone who disagrees a troll.

[Addiction.9685]

Mirage is broken. Stop defending it.

[DigiQWill.6378]

> @"Ryan.9387" said:

> Tldr; I'm good and can 1v2. I also don't have much to say about mirage and will call anyone who disagrees a troll.

 

Ok... seems like people do not know how to read.

 

> I admit it, condition Mirage is overperforming on some domains, like having such a high evade frame where you can deal damage. But if you learn to counter it, it gets easier and easier to fight it. People have learn-to-play issues and blame it on overtuned aspects that are actually not overpowerred. People that play Mirage (excepted for top tiers and some good ones) usually don't know how to play in general (I arguably am still a beginner after my past year almost solely doing PvP and practicing duels), and have little to no knowledge on how the game works. Here's my simple solution on how to bring Mirage back to a decent, performing state: don't let them evade when they are CCd or Immobilized without them having to spend a bit of their resources. They should act like Thieves in general, and have some performance in 1v1s that can still be qualified as hard counters to other classes, but Mirage Cloak needs a rework in its application. Don't nerf the other traits, don't nerf core traitlines. We already have a GM that lets us evade while CCd or Immobed (Elusive Mind could get some use!), we don't actually need that much sustained damage reduction (we basically have 1 GM that is worth taking, and that's Infinite Horizons).

 

This whole paragraph is about how to better balance Mirage, without nerfing it to Elementalist levels (no offence to ele players, I do agree that some ele players are great).

 

If you cannot read an argument, it is useless to comment, am I right? I'll just go and make a video to rage about every single Mesmer skill that frustrates me as another Mesmer instead and get a lot of attention... (no offence jaw, I love your vids). The whole point of this post is to bring the reader to the fact that, if they cannot properly call for the right changes to Mirage it will just give us a bad balance patch on Mirage overall.

 

I have no problem accepting critiques, nonetheless I do have a problem with posts such as yours that do not reflect a general understanding. And I believe I thought you were one of the good players on this forum. If my thread came out as a bragging one, I'll ask for it to be shut down and re-write another one with actual, undisguised changements and improvements. Have a nice one ^^

[DigiQWill.6378]

> @"Addiction.9685" said:

> Mirage is broken. Stop defending it.

 

I'll just refer you to the post right under yours...

 

If you want a quick answer: I suggested nerfs and changes to Mirage to tone down its power while still being playable.

[soul.6527]

Ye Alt 100% you beginner says the man who can kill a real beginner without blinking -.- and mirage isnt over powered in most aspects if you know what kind of mirage your fighting than its a real clear and easy way to deal with them, for example, the septor condi mirage generally if you can evade and not fight with condis on you won't die and if you don't hit there septor block most of the time you cause this mesmer to fall flat on there face

[Math.5123]

Mirage isn't op, all the other specs are just shit. :)

/s

[Crab Fear.1624]

Make Mirage Renegade Again

[Crann.1342]

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> Mirage isn't op, all the other specs are just kitten. :)

> /s

 

Reminds me of the meme people kept saying at the launch of PoF and still parrot now, "Weaver doesn't need buffs, everything else just needs nerfs and then it will be balanced :)"

 

See you guys in 2020 when shit is balanced only for the next expansion to come out 2/3 months later and it's back to balance that makes the game look like its still in beta.

[BlueCar.1587]

Mirage is fundamentally broken and it will never be balanced as long as its dodge roll works as it currently does. Either they are gonna nerf it to the unplayability (which i'd be fine with) or it's gonna stay broken.

(Or they actuaĺly rework the dodge, but tbh it's anet... don't expect them to put effort into pvp)

[Snellibee.2761]

Mirage has too many "oops I fucked up, ah well doesn't matter let me just go invul" type of skills pared with the amount of damage they do.

You talk about pressuring a Mirage that they will die then but the fact is the Mirages barely take any pressure. Talking from a Revenants point, doesn't matter how strategical and careful I try to apply my bursts, 7/10 times the Mirage will have evaded it with their evasion weapon skills or activating distortion. Or they'll randomly go stealth and blink away or break targeting and leave you to look between 10 clones when you don't have the fucking time to look between 10 clones.

 

The only time I actually kill Mirages is when I manage to dodge/block EVERY attack they try to throw at me (not counting autoattacks). But as soon as I get hit by one burst of condi I instantly have to try hard to stay alive.

 

Long story short, reduce mirages damage by a fair amount or reduce their defensive capabilities by a fair amount, Mirages literally have damage, defense and mobility all in once and I don't fucking know why anet isn't seeing through this.

 

I don't care about the condi damage Mirage can output, but let us be able to actually pressure them while doing it.

[Aktium.9506]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Make Mirage Renegade Again

This but unironically.

 

remove mesmer

[DanAlcedo.3281]

Its unfun to play against.

People stop playing PvP.

The Mirage Ratio increases.

More People stop playing PvP.

The Mirage Ratio increases more.

Even More People stop playing PvP.

Repeat.

[Ansau.7326]

Sad that nobody will care about what you say. Look at the first 2 responses: 0% reading, 100% self-made theories and 16/15 likes. Even one got 1 Helpful upvote, like if it was helpful to repeat mesmer are OP, because nobody ever said it before LOL.

This tells you about the quality of the majority of forum community.

 

About mirage, main 2 issues are:

- Too much clutter and condi application coming from skills being based in too many hits (scepter ambush x5 per illusion, axe ambush x3 when traited, staff AA having 2 bounces, staff 2 phantasms hitting x3 each one with Sharper Images...).

- Brake enemy targeting implemented in skills with too low CD, instead of being the F5 skill hidden in a fairly long CD, like it was suggested during beta.

 

Then there is all this drama about Mirage Cloak. But seriously, there is little to change, unless Anet reformulates Mirage from the ground. Mirage Cloak is the theme this elite is based on and nothing will change will small tweaks.

 

Good luck surviving from all the harsh this forum will put on you.

[Megametzler.5729]

I kinda agree with OP (even though he could've just written the "how to balance" part :tongue:). Make a shorter list of your suggestions, it might help with radability and enable more people to read properly. You can add it to the "my balance wishlist"-discussion, maybe, here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/68021/my-balance-wishlist-brace-yourselves-its-a-wall#latest

 

I do think there might be some more minor adjustments needed - @"Ansau.7326" gave some good hints, I think -, but right now IH is just the auto-pick which is boring. Mirage cloak can still cover casts, movement, even rezz and finish, that's fine for a class mechanic, but not stun without a serious disadvantage elsewhere... :cry:

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> Its unfun to play against.

 

 

I dunno...I enjoy playing against them. Beat them a few times and most will back down. Like going to prison...learn to beat the biggest/baddest person there and they won't touch ya after. Ive sparred many many many times (a lot of losses for sure), I adapted, learned to fight them and now condi mirages I typically eat. I literally got gud.

[Shadow Order.7258]

> @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> Its unfun to play against.

> People stop playing PvP.

> The Mirage Ratio increases.

> More People stop playing PvP.

> The Mirage Ratio increases more.

> Even More People stop playing PvP.

> Repeat.

 

It's not op.

Everyone else is bad.

That's what they like to say.

To gain skills like them is easy.

You just need to practice for a day.

So come make an easy mode macro.

And you to can be skilled like they.

Then you can come defend your skills.

While you face roll the night away.

[Seth.8906]

You fight a mesme with a mesme... the profession with more build in the game.

Try all other profession vs one few can destroy it the rest simlpe cant with same skill player

[Abazigal.3679]

> @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:

> > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said:

> > Its unfun to play against.

>

>

> I dunno...I enjoy playing against them. Beat them a few times and most will back down. Like going to prison...learn to beat the biggest/baddest person there and they won't touch ya after. Ive sparred many many many times (a lot of losses for sure), I adapted, learned to fight them and now condi mirages I typically eat. I literally got gud.

 

The fun/unfun part isn't the 1v1 actually, it's when there are also 1-2 necros and 1-2 holos teamed with the mirage(s) and you watch 3 teammates who keep dying in a few seconds.

[Fortus.6175]

I'm currently taking a break from PvP, which honestly has reduced my levels of salt over PvP, so I feel my head is a little more leveled right now for this discussion.

 

Certainly we will never have true balance, because there will always be outliers, however, the key is the difference between outliers, and the average build. Right now Mirage, Holo and Soulbeasts are quite above baseline. I know once the patch hits, many people will come back and play again (myself included, even if they barely touch these 3), however, right now the effect mesmers are having on PvP overall and enjoyment of the game is quite detrimental, and **affects player retention**.

 

 

Reddit, which is known for not giving a crap about anything but memes and PvE stuff, and barely ever any PvP post goes above 20-40 votes, has had 2 mirages threads over the span of a week getting more upvotes that most other PvE and memes threads **IN MONTHS** , which quite reflect the state of PvP:

 

 

 

Whether they are "balanced" or not, those kind of posts steam from community frustration and only makes it worse for a mode that struggles to retain people. At least for the sake of having fun and fighting others with a chance of fighting back fairly, these speccs need to be looked at and have their power shifted around.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

> @"Fortus.6175" said:

> I'm currently taking a break from PvP, which honestly has reduced my levels of salt over PvP, so I feel my head is a little more leveled right now for this discussion.

>

 

It helped me. I felt myself becoming one of those toxic e.p.e.e.n humping players. Left PvP for WvW (Still had a thirst for fights) and never looked back. This was post HoT

[DigiQWill.6378]

> @"Megametzler.5729" said:

> I kinda agree with OP (even though he could've just written the "how to balance" part :tongue:). Make a shorter list of your suggestions, it might help with radability and enable more people to read properly. You can add it to the "my balance wishlist"-discussion, maybe, here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/68021/my-balance-wishlist-brace-yourselves-its-a-wall#latest

>

> I do think there might be some more minor adjustments needed - @"Ansau.7326" gave some good hints, I think -, but right now IH is just the auto-pick which is boring. Mirage cloak can still cover casts, movement, even rezz and finish, that's fine for a class mechanic, but not stun without a serious disadvantage elsewhere... :cry:

 

I tend to add too much text for contextual reasons haha I'll gladly send you the nerfs and changes I'd like to see! Thanks for your thoughts on the matter!

> @"Ansau.7326" said:

> Sad that nobody will care about what you say. Look at the first 2 responses: 0% reading, 100% self-made theories and 16/15 likes. Even one got 1 Helpful upvote, like if it was helpful to repeat mesmer are OP, because nobody ever said it before LOL.

> This tells you about the quality of the majority of forum community.

>

> About mirage, main 2 issues are:

> - Too much clutter and condi application coming from skills being based in too many hits (scepter ambush x5 per illusion, axe ambush x3 when traited, staff AA having 2 bounces, staff 2 phantasms hitting x3 each one with Sharper Images...).

> - Brake enemy targeting implemented in skills with too low CD, instead of being the F5 skill hidden in a fairly long CD, like it was suggested during beta.

>

> Then there is all this drama about Mirage Cloak. But seriously, there is little to change, unless Anet reformulates Mirage from the ground. Mirage Cloak is the theme this elite is based on and nothing will change will small tweaks.

>

> Good luck surviving from all the harsh this forum will put on you.

 

That is what I was implying with the first part of the thread's original post. To be honest with you, I'd rather see Mirage slightly nerfed at a time so they can bring it to an actual balanced state. Thank you for your input!