Unfair design decisions : Sustain with no investment

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> In case of Core Guard as well, taking an entire Traitline for that GM can hardly be called no investment.

> Looking at a single trait out of context doesn't have much value.

> Besides that, core Guard is running Valkyrie, aka, investing into a defensive stat in Vitality.

>

> If you want to talk about free sustain/mitigation while doing damage, you might want to look at the Mirage kit instead.

 

lul, so core guard take an entire traitline, valkyrie and hardly can be called no investiment but chaos staff and sage amulet (3 defensive options you're trading damage off) on mirage is free sustain/mitigation.

 

OT: I agree with your sentiment, depending on the view ele is either the most or least balanced profession.

The problem is not the traits as much but stat choices, ele has to spec healing power to have as much if not even still less sustain than some other professions.

Reduce base healing, regen on everyone else and make it scale better with healing power or increase base healing and regen to absurd levels without healing power on ele.

Perhaps make healing power affect protection time on some degree.

 

 

 

[miriforst.1290]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> It has been 7 years since GW2 launch and I still ask the same question, which still goes unanswered :

>

> **Why stuff like this exist in game?** :

>

> -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might_Makes_Right

> -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Monk%27s_Focus

> -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet

> -https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Compounding_Chemicals

>

> These are just few of the traits/utilities I find unfair in this game, there are more ; - free sustain at no extra cost - , people can go full DPS mode and still have unreasonable levels of sustain **respect to an ele specced in the same way who still end up anyway doing less damage**

>

> Coree guardian...Core warrior...Holosmith..you want do dmg? FINE! But you should not have access to the current levels of sustain without any actual investment in any defensive stat , meanwhile an ele have to actually invest into healing power/toughness to have sustain.

>

> So basically ele is do DPS and die fast or do little dps and live longer but others can be DPS and live longer.....very objective, reasonable, fair and professional balance decision.

>

> In a fair and unbiased world, those traits mentioned above **would be gutted by 50%-60% at base level while receiving bigger healing coefficients** , if a core guardian wants sustain...he should invest in some healing power as it is for ele, same goes for warrior and engineer...but alas we don't live in neither a fair or unbiased world and decisions made at the highest level are not always on point

 

Compounding chemicals is fine, though you could slap on a minor icd and massively increase the healing to normalize it between normal builds and boon spammers like holo. And increase the hp scaling of course.

 

However what you are looking for is heat therapy which will convert a full heat bar into 6.5k healing at no healing power investment. Compare this to the nerfed rapid regeneration on scrapper which so far is THE selfish sustain elit espec (even spellbreaker got some boon counter utility and decent hard hitters). Again reducing power and returning it with healingpower opens up to more sustainy builds at the cost of less damage. Sad thing on holo is that all the more offensive traits (solar focusing, storm and PBM) are so weak compared to defensive alternatives and the baseline holo has a ton of offensive power so he doesn't need it. So the same goes here, nerf the offensive of forge and give it back through the above traits.

[Ruufio.1496]

If you think compounding chemicals is OP now, try it with elixir gun 1 and aristocracy runes ;)

 

The new devs should never have changed:

 

Throwing or consuming elixirs removes conditions from those affected. Gain increased concentration

 

Miscellaneous effect.png Conditions Removed: 1

Miscellaneous effect.png Concentration: 240

 

... to the new trait. Every engineer preferred the condition removal on elixirs. Now condition removal has been moved to invention with requirement of protection but that makes elixirs pretty bad now. The original devs had it right. But actually, alchemy has been nerfed so hard that it's actually not really worth running anymore (no more elixir S, no condition removal, passive condition convert nerfed, passive prot nerfed) It's better to run inventions instead IMO.

 

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> > @"kodesh.2851" said:

> > As others have pointed out, taking defensive gm traits is hardly no investment. On burn guard for example I'd rather take zeal and eternal armory than monk's focus... But if I do there's no sustain only damage. There's tradeoffs for engi and war too. Only core trends to run might makes right because the disc and def trees are considered mandatory. Wars have basically one tree to play with when making builds. Holo is similarly pidgeon holed.

> >

> > I actually think ele has more build options now than most.

>

> I got a question: How would you balance out warr without sustain?

>

> I am curious because of zerkers and what happened to them. I dont want for instance the situation to happen to spellbreaker what happened to zerker.

 

I would balance warriors like eles as said before : damage with no sustain or sustain with no dmg..or something in between...**not everything slapped in the same build for safe convenience**.

 

GW1 has been considered more balanced than GW2 because people had actula trade offs, there was no one man army ( not literally speaking ) and this is something that has been mentioned by TOP ex- ESL winners like ROM just last week : current meta builds pack everything into their build with sustain, damage all graciously stacked into super compressed traits/weapon skills/utilities.

 

The same principle applied to nerf ele to the ground in the past...**suddenly not longer apply to other professions**.

 

In the past one dev said : **if you are good at teamfight..you shouldn't be good as duellist or sidenode holder** and based on that principle they nerfed ele to the ground...very well I'd say but...then they made Holosmith...Spellbreaker...Soulbeast and Mirage..with guardian, rev not lagging too far behind...where is that "principle" now?

 

I'd go and dare to say that everything started in 2015 **when all design principles suddenly got throwed out of the window** ..and I will stop with this, any further and I'd get infractions

[Asum.4960]

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > In case of Core Guard as well, taking an entire Traitline for that GM can hardly be called no investment.

> > Looking at a single trait out of context doesn't have much value.

> > Besides that, core Guard is running Valkyrie, aka, investing into a defensive stat in Vitality.

> >

> > If you want to talk about free sustain/mitigation while doing damage, you might want to look at the Mirage kit instead.

>

> lul, so core guard take an entire traitline, valkyrie and hardly can be called no investiment but chaos staff and sage amulet (3 defensive options you're trading damage off) on mirage is free sustain/mitigation.

 

Okay, so nerf core guards sustain so they have to take a more defensive Amulet, but then add obscene stacks of burning, torment and confusion to every single weapon skill, so they end up more sustainy while doing the same damage as before, and then it's fine, because they are running a defensive amulet?

 

Makes sense.

[MyPuppy.8970]

Make healing power reduce condi damage and we're fine. 1000 healing power = -50% condition damage.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> @"Arheundel.6451" Not sure why you isolated core guardian warrior and holo. How about soul beast, mirage, reaper, dead eye and herald? And honestly, weaver is not as terrible as people claim it is (but surely lacking).

 

half the classes mentioned do not have sustain lol.

 

[Vagrant.7206]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > lol @ compounding chemicals being OP.

>

> 37 healing for acquired boon at 0 healing power time 10-12 boons on acquired on short time interval equals to 400+ healing from a mere minor trait and 0 healing power on top of the healing from regeneration and **heat teraphy** for another ...dunno random number ...another 300 pts+ ??...ands everything at 0 healing power mind you.

 

400 healing for 10-12 boons. Yeah. That's not a whole lot. Regen with 0 healing power does the same in about 3 seconds, without needing to spam boons. So the healing part of that traits is not "OP" in the slightest. The only part worth mentioning in that trait is the +concentration. +240 concentration amounts to +16% boon duration, which is relatively significant.

 

Also, as @"Ruufio.1496" mentioned, there used to be something [far more powerful](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alchemical_Tinctures "far more powerful") in that trait's slot. Compounding chemicals was a straight nerf when compared to alchemical tinctures. That single change gutted alchemy's potency, forcing engineers to have to divide their defensive traits between alchemy and inventions for the same level of sustain.

 

So the thing you pointed out as being "OP" actually forced engineers to have to make a choice in defenses. You'll notice with all of the "meta" builds for engineer, either they have [alchemy and inventions](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Protection_Holo "alchemy and inventions"), or alchemy and a bunch of defensive utility skills ([1](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Elixir_Rifle "1"), [2](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Gadget_Holo "2")).

 

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> But actually the issue here is not even engineer sustain...it's their ability to partake this sustain while dishing out ridicolous amount of dmg..engies can pack all goodies in a single basket...where ele for damage must go fire/air which offer no sustain or go water/arcana for sustain, how nice would it be if ele could go water/arcana and still do berseker levels of damage...that would be unbalanced , after all they did nerf to the ground cele d/d for doing too much dmg despite their huge sustain....that's balance for you : Trade Off!

>

> That's something every class should be forced to make...instead than allow easy mode gimmicks that artificially inflate the actual skill level of players

 

You know the funny thing is... a lot of people think engineer's sustain is innate to the class. Sure, yolosmith makes it a lot easier than it used to be (thanks Heat Therapy!), but a lot of the sustain in engineer is coming from combos. A good engineer can turn the 5,000-ish health + regen from healing turret and turn it into over 10,000 healing + regen if they know what they're doing. I can blast/leap water fields for health, blast light fields for cleanse, blast dark fields for AoE blind, blast/leap poison for weakness, etc.

 

The [particular build I run](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Holosmith_-_Stand_Still_S/S "particular build I run") is incredibly tanky and deals a lot of damage, but that's because I have to use a lot of combinations at the right times. I also can't chase people for crap, nor can I really disengage from a fight. I can push a soulbeast off of a point after a few minutes, but I'll never be able to catch up to them to finish them.

 

And if you want to have any hope of success with my build... you have to know the class.

[Snellibee.2761]

> @"Apolo.5942" said:

> Short answer? because damage is too high.

 

Damage is too high because classes can take high damage and still have tons of sustain though. A lot of classes just pick damage builds because their class gives them sustain with no damage dropoff, wich is why theres so much damage in the game right now. Make it like Revenant where you trait full damage but you barely have any sustain to keep fights up.

[Snellibee.2761]

> @"otto.5684" said:

> @"Arheundel.6451" Not sure why you isolated core guardian warrior and holo. How about soul beast, mirage, reaper, dead eye and herald? And honestly, weaver is not as terrible as people claim it is (but surely lacking).

>

> You cannot take 1-2 traits in isolation of any build. It just does not work that way.

 

Herald doesn't have sustain though it's full damage, atleast the meta build is

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

I feel like Monk's focus is the only real example of what you're criticizing. MMR is taken for the endurance regen, the sustain is very negligible even when stacked with Healing Signet; which, as a warrior main I don't even use anymore because when everything is so bursty, the passive regen style of play really doesn't serve a purpose. Compounding chemical's heal is even more negligible than MMR's. You could remove the healing from that and it'd still be a decent and necessary passive that complements the alchemy line pretty well.

 

Can't say Monk's Focus is unfair with no investment either, as that's tied to utility skills with decently long cooldowns, some of which get burned just to initiate.

[Derm.4932]

If your issue is classes dealing too much damage while having too much sustain, then perhaps you should look at not just nerfing sustain, but nerfing damage instead. We're already in a meta with extremely high damage output. It doesn't make sense to nerf sustain when you can nerf damage, at least in this meta. It also gives you more leeway into nerfing things without screwing over other specs.

 

 

Not that I agree with it since it doesn't make sense in this meta, but IF you were to nerf Core Guard and introduce tradeoffs:

**What happens if you nerf Monk's Focus(sustain):**

Core Guard accepts lower sustain for the same damage

Whatever remains of DH's bullet riddled body is taken out back and shot again

 

**What happens if you nerf Righteous Instincts(damage):**

Core Guard accepts lower damage for the same sustain

DH gets to keep it spot as a C tier bruiser

 

In both cases Core Guard now has tradeoffs as was originally desired, but only one scenario doesn't inflict excessive collateral damage on DH.

[Bashi.8902]

At this point id argue that healing signet is the worst heal skill in the game and might makes right really only works well on spellbreaker with magebanetether for sustain since it buffs up ur regen by ~100/s for the tether duration. Compare a warrior that has to kite and juke use defenses and hit burst skills for 25 seconds to even be able to heal back a 10k burst which is literally a rev port nowadays to say healing turret, aed, troll urgent (damn you mud ur so op) and so on. A warrior has to play fucking well to sustain himself against people above bot level. He has to hit his burst skills and be able to kite with the most unreliable mobility skills in the game or jumping puzzles.

Edit: In a BURST meta mind u. Oneshots are everything right now. Have fun resustaining urself after a coordinated spike with healing signet. Only takes like 80 seconds of perfect kiting.

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Bashi.8902" said:

> At this point id argue that healing signet is the worst heal skill in the game and might makes right really only works well on spellbreaker with magebanetether for sustain since it buffs up ur regen by ~100/s for the tether duration. Compare a warrior that has to kite and juke use defenses and hit burst skills for 25 seconds to even be able to heal back a 10k burst which is literally a rev port nowadays to say healing turret, aed, troll urgent (kitten you mud ur so op) and so on. A warrior has to play kitten well to sustain himself against people above bot level. He has to hit his burst skills and be able to kite with the most unreliable mobility skills in the game or jumping puzzles.

> Edit: In a BURST meta mind u. Oneshots are everything right now. Have fun resustaining urself after a coordinated spike with healing signet. Only takes like 80 seconds of perfect kiting.

 

yea that make sense. HS is the worst that why every warrior take it in PvP

[Bashi.8902]

> @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > @"Bashi.8902" said:

> > At this point id argue that healing signet is the worst heal skill in the game and might makes right really only works well on spellbreaker with magebanetether for sustain since it buffs up ur regen by ~100/s for the tether duration. Compare a warrior that has to kite and juke use defenses and hit burst skills for 25 seconds to even be able to heal back a 10k burst which is literally a rev port nowadays to say healing turret, aed, troll urgent (kitten you mud ur so op) and so on. A warrior has to play kitten well to sustain himself against people above bot level. He has to hit his burst skills and be able to kite with the most unreliable mobility skills in the game or jumping puzzles.

> > Edit: In a BURST meta mind u. Oneshots are everything right now. Have fun resustaining urself after a coordinated spike with healing signet. Only takes like 80 seconds of perfect kiting.

>

> yea that make sense. HS is the worst that why every warrior take it in PvP

 

The only reason why every warrior takes it is because everything else is horrible. Just like every stunbreak other then shake it off is horrible. And every utility other then bullscharge. And every elite other then rampage. 90% of warrior heals skills utilitys elites and even weapons are garbo. And 3 traitlines are completely unusable atm. Its not that we use it cuz its good its just the rest is trash

[DragonFury.6243]

> @"Bashi.8902" said:

> > @"DragonFury.6243" said:

> > > @"Bashi.8902" said:

> > > At this point id argue that healing signet is the worst heal skill in the game and might makes right really only works well on spellbreaker with magebanetether for sustain since it buffs up ur regen by ~100/s for the tether duration. Compare a warrior that has to kite and juke use defenses and hit burst skills for 25 seconds to even be able to heal back a 10k burst which is literally a rev port nowadays to say healing turret, aed, troll urgent (kitten you mud ur so op) and so on. A warrior has to play kitten well to sustain himself against people above bot level. He has to hit his burst skills and be able to kite with the most unreliable mobility skills in the game or jumping puzzles.

> > > Edit: In a BURST meta mind u. Oneshots are everything right now. Have fun resustaining urself after a coordinated spike with healing signet. Only takes like 80 seconds of perfect kiting.

> >

> > yea that make sense. HS is the worst that why every warrior take it in PvP

>

> The only reason why every warrior takes it is because everything else is horrible. Just like every stunbreak other then shake it off is horrible. And every utility other then bullscharge. And every elite other then rampage. 90% of warrior heals skills utilitys elites and even weapons are garbo. And 3 traitlines are completely unusable atm. Its not that we use it cuz its good its just the rest is trash

 

and what make you think that the healing skill/utility/elite on other profession is not horrible

i love to see other profession get a healing skill that passively heal you every second and and active that give you resistance and elite that each hit do +5k DMG

dont make it sound that warrior is not a S tier profession

 

> Edit: In a BURST meta mind u. Oneshots are everything right now. Have fun resustaining urself after a coordinated spike with healing signet. Only takes like 80 seconds of perfect kiting.

if a profession that can kit for 80 second that mean this profession dont need HS

and if you kit for 80 second with HS on that mean you healed for 27520 yea that is "fair"