Kralk's Defeat And The Charr/Human Treaty

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Keep in mind that the actions of the Orders != that of the Pact. Though the Pact is primarily comprised of the Orders (at least prior to Season 2), the Orders are still independent from the Pact and have many operations separate of them. For example, the Vigil were (very quickly) sent to Draconis Mons to combat Balthazar; as you say, the Order of Whispers were involved with the White Mantle assault; and in Season 1, the Vigil and Whispers both involved themselves with the Molten and Toxic Alliances (the Priory as well with the TA), but not the Aetherblades, and the Pact held zero involvement for all situations mentioned in this post.

 

If the Pact gets involved, it'll solely be due to the decisions of the new Marshal. That won't prevent the Orders from acting, however.

 

On top of that, if there is such a conflict from breaking the treaty, it won't be "charr versus humans", it'll end up being "Blood + Renegades versus Iron + Ash + maybe Ebonhawke". Which would be feasible for them, since Blood is heavily suggested to be over twice the size of Iron and Ash. Though there'd likely also be some additional force added with Blood to help push the reasoning (for example, Flame already allied with dredge with the intent to later overthrow them, if Bangar would be willing then Flame could ally with Blood; or just MA remnants at that, whom are ostracized by the rest of Flame for their failures, aiding Blood in return for sanctuary).

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Westenev.5289" said:

 

> The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

 

It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

 

That said, we've had a number of indications that the Pact just isn't what it used to be. That very same episode, in fact, the court gossip was that the orders were at each other's throats again. Hopefully, Logan's curbed that inclination somewhat, but the force he was able to put together to face Kralkatorrik doesn't seem to be anywhere near the size of what we sent after Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

[Westenev.5289]

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Westenev.5289" said:

>

> > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

>

> It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

 

Weren't they there for the Centaurs, though?

 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> >

> > > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

> >

> > It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

>

> Weren't they there for the Centaurs, though?

 

No. They arrived to assist with the White Mantle as a token of the peace treaty.

[Westenev.5289]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > >

> > > > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

> > >

> > > It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

> >

> > Weren't they there for the Centaurs, though?

>

> No. They arrived to assist with the White Mantle as a token of the peace treaty.

 

Righty-o. I'll just shut up and stand over there with the "this story makes no damn sense" crowd.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > > >

> > > > > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

> > > >

> > > > It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

> > >

> > > Weren't they there for the Centaurs, though?

> >

> > No. They arrived to assist with the White Mantle as a token of the peace treaty.

>

> Righty-o. I'll just shut up and stand over there with the "this story makes no kitten sense" crowd.

 

Well, that crowd ain't wrong. -goes to join-

[Kalavier.1097]

> @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.

> Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts. There are humans who arnet fond of it, but Charr presence and tech have helped them in their own united struggles on the warfronts they've taken to as well. Right now it feels like Canthans coming out of isolation and invading Kryta for conquest would be more likely than another Human vs Charr war.

 

This entirely. Ascalon is still filled with threats, Flame Legion as I recall is described as being withdrawn, but feared to have strength to surge and overrun defenses if they move too many troops away and show a weak spot.

 

Also the fact the Charr aren't stupid and won't provoke a war after having troops take part in the pact actions against Kralkatorrik, and seeing that basically every major army active right now in this part of the world is on friendly terms.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > >

> > > > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

> > >

> > > It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

> >

> > Weren't they there for the Centaurs, though?

>

> No. They arrived to assist with the White Mantle as a token of the peace treaty.

 

Didn't really seem to me to be a "token" effort, as it was a sizable warband capable of operating across the entire region of Lake Doric, and the commanding officer directly states they are there to prevent the white mantle from corrupting/destroying "Everything our races have built together".

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> While there's definitely been _some_ cultural exchange between humans and charr, I don't think we can overstate it. We've really only seen a handful of warbands fighting alongside humans outside the Pact structure, and even in that small sample, there's been some grumbling. The bulk of the charr, assigned to their own territory, where the only humans they see on a regular basis (if any) are Separatist terrorists? There's not going to be many strong objections to renewing the conflict there.

>

> I agree that I don't see Smodur going that route, and that he's well enough positioned that Bangar has nothing to gain as long as Iron stands in the way... but regime change in either Iron, Kryta, or Ebonhawke could conceivably change that picture very quickly.

 

The only grumbles I recall was from the hearts north of Ebonhawke where Charr warbands were forced to patrol/operate alongside Ebon Vanguard soldiers, and afterwards they got along better. In more recent releases there is rarely any trouble between Charr and human soldiers, the only big one being Gwen and Rytlock being uneasy about each other that I can think of.

 

Either way, outside of a major power change in Iron Legion or Kryta, I don't see the war opening back up. Kryta is unlikely to restart the war as the traitor ministers and white mantle ministers got arrested or killed off entirely.

 

The Charr I don't see restarting the war either as they are smart enough to not make themselves the bad guys, and the other reason is they never invaded Kryta during the period between GW1 and GW2. They attacked Ebonhawke relentelessly yes, but they never actually went after Kryta. If the charr truly wanted to conquer the world, why didn't they? This was long before the elder dragons were a thorn in anybody's side. They pretty much just wanted to completely retake Ascalon.

 

Even with Kralkatorrik dead, the threats to Ascalon remain present. The flame legion is weakened and Withdrawn, but they are stated to be still strong enough to be a threat, simply waiting for weakness to appear. Harpies, ogres, grawl, dredge, separatists, and other forces still cause problems, and the ghosts are an even present threat, even if they aren't on Black Citadel's doorstep anymore. Also, as shown by Orr and the Maguuma, just because Kralkatorrik is dead does not mean the brand is safe. Brandstorms may very well still ravage the area (which was the biggest threat of the brand), the branded are still going to be active and any remaining dragon like champions will still be flying about.

 

I think having the Charr-human war open up would simply be bad writing, ignoring how the world of Tyria actively works together to overcome problems, like when Rytlock and his crew stopped fighting Logan and his men to face off the greater threat of the Ogres, together. It would reduce the Charr from interesting to dull "Cat-orcs with industry". Not to mention the fact the Commander, the legendary hero who has killed three elder dragons, defeated joko in single combat, defeated and killed balthazar, came back from the dead, and traveled the entire world would be sworn to defend Kryta (if not stay neutral) due to their unofficial status among the shining blade and the oath taken. And if the commander stood against the legions, I'm leaning toward the pact, and all the allied races going toward that side.

 

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > @"Westenev.5289" said:

>

> > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

>

> It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

>

> That said, we've had a number of indications that the Pact just isn't what it used to be. That very same episode, in fact, the court gossip was that the orders were at each other's throats again. Hopefully, Logan's curbed that inclination somewhat, but the force he was able to put together to face Kralkatorrik doesn't seem to be anywhere near the size of what we sent after Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

 

The force brought against Kralkatorrik at Thunderhead is pretty sizable. It's implied that the forces at dragonfall (at least to me) are literally everybody left who was able to immediately be deployed again, piled onto the airships that could fly and chasing the beacon Gorrik gave them. Even then, they put out a sizable force complete with extensive helicopter support.

[draxynnic.3719]

I would note that the charr were at least investigating the possibility of direct action against Kryta in Sea of Sorrows before Zhaitan's rise. Whether anything would have come of it is anyone's guess, especially since the charr attempted to send a peace offering a decade or so afterwards.

 

> @"adormtil.1605" said:

> Well you forget the bond they have. Iron legion had to survive in the land of fire,blood and ash legion for about 1000 years. And they survived because the other legions let them survive. I doubt they will oppose and fight the other legions for the humans.

 

Has your mother ever used the "would you jump off a cliff if your friends told you to?" line on you?

 

The Ash Imperator, Malice Swordshadow, supports the peace. So in the hypothetical case where the Blood Legion decides unilaterally that it wants to go to war, Iron would be choosing between Blood on one side, and Ash and _every other ally or potential ally_ on the other.

 

Furthermore, due to the charr political structure (each of the three legions are essentially independent but allied nations), for Blood Legion to resume hostilities without the blessing of the Iron Legion would first require violating Iron Legion sovereignty.

 

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> > It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.

> > Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts.

>

> Recent conflicts _which have come to an end now_. The High Legions are first and foremost a military operation, Blood chief among such. The charr are warriors, through and through, born and raised for constant conflict. With victory over most of them, charr will seek out a new conflict, and if one doesn't come to them, they will no doubt make one. That is your "something that incites desire to break it in a poignant way".

>

> The charr, above all else, is a race of war. They will never thrive in peaceful times. It would make no sense, not as they are now, with warbands and fahrars and a military hierarchy from top to bottom. And if there is no war for them to fight in, they will make a war. And humans are the most ideal targets for such a thing, with all other threats gone or reduced to a paltry annoyance.

 

Charr society is organised like an army, but I don't think it follows that they're destined to be a race of war forever.

 

There are roles in that organisation which, in a more conventional would be regarded as civilian in nature. You'd expect there to be, after all - otherwise, their society would simply fall apart. Having developed into an industrial society, they're entering a phase where the benefits from peaceful trade might outweigh the benefits from conquest - or at least provide a viable alternative. Ultimately, there's probably not a huge amount of difference between running a Legion like an army and running it like a giant megacorporation-state, except for how it goes about securing the resources it can't produce itself.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

> @"Kalavier.1097" said:

 

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > While there's definitely been _some_ cultural exchange between humans and charr, I don't think we can overstate it. We've really only seen a handful of warbands fighting alongside humans outside the Pact structure, and even in that small sample, there's been some grumbling. The bulk of the charr, assigned to their own territory, where the only humans they see on a regular basis (if any) are Separatist terrorists? There's not going to be many strong objections to renewing the conflict there.

> >

> > I agree that I don't see Smodur going that route, and that he's well enough positioned that Bangar has nothing to gain as long as Iron stands in the way... but regime change in either Iron, Kryta, or Ebonhawke could conceivably change that picture very quickly.

>

> The only grumbles I recall was from the hearts north of Ebonhawke where Charr warbands were forced to patrol/operate alongside Ebon Vanguard soldiers, and afterwards they got along better. In more recent releases there is rarely any trouble between Charr and human soldiers, the only big one being Gwen and Rytlock being uneasy about each other that I can think of.

 

There were some here and there through the late PS, and also some in S2 when the Legion troops are assigned to help the Pact... but that basically means, with the exception of S3E4, we get grumbling every time we see Legion charr mixing with humans. The major problem is that we just haven't seen it happening much, which means there hasn't been much chance to get back to the race at large. Ebon Vanguard and the Legions on the southeast border of Ascalon, I think two whole warbands during the attack on Orr, a few more during the Mordremoth campaign, a Blood detachment for the siege of DR, and then a force keeping to itself for Thunderhead Keep (that seems not to have followed the Commander on to the second battle). Relative to the entire charr nation, that's not a lot. And just as the actions of Red Cross volunteers or deployed soldiers overseas are unlikely to change the world view of a rural Kansas farmer, the warbands who served with the PAct won't, on their own, sway the masses of those who didn't.

 

> The Charr I don't see restarting the war either as they are smart enough to not make themselves the bad guys, and the other reason is they never invaded Kryta during the period between GW1 and GW2. They attacked Ebonhawke relentelessly yes, but they never actually went after Kryta. If the charr truly wanted to conquer the world, why didn't they? This was long before the elder dragons were a thorn in anybody's side. They pretty much just wanted to completely retake Ascalon.

 

According to Sea of Sorrows, Kryta was next on the list, as soon as Ebonhawke was done. Sykox was raised in the anticipation that his generation would be the one to finish the humans, to the point that his fahrar drilled for assaults on Lion's Arch.

 

Regardless, though, being smart- and not wanting to look like the bad guys- doesn't seem like a compelling argument that a nation won't go to war. Humans are plenty smart, but we start wars all the time, and we've got all sorts of techniques to do it without seeming to be at fault. (Particularly in the days before the internet, or even radio- the Legions could tell their soldiers whatever the Imperator and tribunes like, and the rank-and-file soldiers are unlikely to ever hear different.)

 

> I think having the Charr-human war open up would simply be bad writing, ignoring how the world of Tyria actively works together to overcome problems, like when Rytlock and his crew stopped fighting Logan and his men to face off the greater threat of the Ogres, together. It would reduce the Charr from interesting to dull "Cat-orcs with industry". Not to mention the fact the Commander, the legendary hero who has killed three elder dragons, defeated joko in single combat, defeated and killed balthazar, came back from the dead, and traveled the entire world would be sworn to defend Kryta (if not stay neutral) due to their unofficial status among the shining blade and the oath taken. And if the commander stood against the legions, I'm leaning toward the pact, and all the allied races going toward that side.

Honestly? I feel the opposite. I _don't_ think that the world of Tyria actively works together to overcome problems- I think a number of remarkable individuals are willing to look past all the bullcrap to rise above and save the world, and I think some of the national leaders can be pressured into helping those causes... but others can't, and the average citizen of Tyria has no interest in any of that.

 

Similarly, our cachet as Commander is probably down to how personally threatened a race felt (and how inclined they are to believe our supposed exploits). We probably have a great deal of sway with the sylvari, between Mordremoth and the Knight of the Thorn business. The norn, because we do legends like nobody else, and to a lesser extent, Kryta, not because of the dragons but because of our actions during the siege and our friendship with the Queen. But the asura? The Arcane Council has proven a couple of times that they don't give a single copper about us, and nothing we've done is likely to have mattered to the world of krewe competition. The charr? We've been off winning major victories for other people, but we haven't made any difference to Ascalon's military situation- we've done a bit to uphold the treaty with Ebonhawke, but loads of people have done their share there, and while killing Kralkatorrik is nice, it doesn't solve the Branded problem. For the Legions (and the Ebon Vanguard) the effort we've put in and the sacrifices we've made aren't remarkable. Military cultures are never short on heroes, but they're usually the ones fighting on the home front.

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> >

> > > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

> >

> > It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

> >

> > That said, we've had a number of indications that the Pact just isn't what it used to be. That very same episode, in fact, the court gossip was that the orders were at each other's throats again. Hopefully, Logan's curbed that inclination somewhat, but the force he was able to put together to face Kralkatorrik doesn't seem to be anywhere near the size of what we sent after Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

>

> The force brought against Kralkatorrik at Thunderhead is pretty sizable. It's implied that the forces at dragonfall (at least to me) are literally everybody left who was able to immediately be deployed again, piled onto the airships that could fly and chasing the beacon Gorrik gave them. Even then, they put out a sizable force complete with extensive helicopter support.

 

Fairly sizable, but that's still a large, large step down from garrisoning half of Orr... and most of the force at Thunderhead isn't Pact. Doing a quick headcount and comparing to what we see elsewhere in the game... they brought one, maybe two, of those fortified camps in the Cursed Shore? The airships are likely the more significant contribution, but at this point we can't tell what's Pact and what's other races, or even corsairs.

 

The amount of force the Pact has been bringing to bear through S4 feels more like the Vigil pre-Pact than the Pact pre-Maguuma. And that makes sense; they've fought two extremely costly campaigns. They _should_ be running low on troops, and they _should_ be finding their well of willing replacements drying up.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"Kalavier.1097" said:

> Why would the charr break the peace treaty with the humans? That would make the race idiotic and backstabbers, and ruin their relations with other races and weaken their own powers. There is mention in black citadel that (at that point of time) they had trouble maintaining supply lines across all of ascalon. They can't invade across the shiverpeaks.

>

> It's also an often overlooked detail that when Zhaitan rose, the Iron legion made a first offer of peace to humanity (Which was stolen by pirates and the new prince waged bloody war infront of Ebonhawke).

>

> The Charr are not Warcraft Orcs. They have, and use, their brains. They don't start wars for "Lul CONQUEST" reasons.

 

Their are charr who keep saying the treaty is only temporary and while there are charr and humans not think about war their are charr who to start it again. Fume Brighteyes for exmaple hates humans she want to be the new Iron legion leader Fume Bright eyes becomes the new leader somehow she may break the treaty and condom all charr who fought with humans including the Charr pact commanders my human character Tarwin fought with as traitors. The blood legion leader well support fFUme in another war with the humans but may be using Fume as well to settle his own ambitions. Also countless charr who fought with my human character Tarwin added I helped the charr, many charr well outright refuse to fight me since I help them as well most charr well see the war started By fume and blood legions warmongering leader as foolish countless charr who worked the humans in the orders would be force to decide who they are loyal too, warbands would be divided and would risk falling apart to arguing over the war and to infighting as many charr warbands have members who work with humans, and many may refuse to outright attack the humans.

 

A civil war would happen among the charr as a result. Many charr like Rytlock would be force to fight their own legions, many charr in the legions and part of it are force to fight the charr. When the war is at lasted ended the charr legions may come out crippled in some way and badly weaken the charr dreams of conquering the world nothing more then a dream then and many charr would be bitter both at the legions and at each other, many charr are upset their a civilw war had to happen just because they were condamed for working with humans other charr bitter cause they lost a war, other bitter cause charr slew charr on a large scale, many charr may abandon the legions.

Oh and many charr would demand why they do not have a Khan ur where is the Khan ur promised to lead them to victory after victory? Many charr would see that they were never going to get a Khan ur and leave the legions in bitterness upset that all they had been fighting was for nothing. The Charr LEgions in the after math of the war with the humans and their own civil war will be at risk of complete collapse.

 

It would be up to the pact commander his allies and maybe the Olkamakan charr to save what is left of the weaken war torn legions from fading away. Many humans would fell the sting of the charr legions temporary treaty and the humans of Ebonhawk may begin offenses if the yhave the strength to take back Ascalon and they might be able to depending on how weaken the legions are.

 

 

This all my point of view if a war happen.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"Kalavier.1097" said:

> > @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> > It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.

> > Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts. There are humans who arnet fond of it, but Charr presence and tech have helped them in their own united struggles on the warfronts they've taken to as well. Right now it feels like Canthans coming out of isolation and invading Kryta for conquest would be more likely than another Human vs Charr war.

>

> This entirely. Ascalon is still filled with threats, Flame Legion as I recall is described as being withdrawn, but feared to have strength to surge and overrun defenses if they move too many troops away and show a weak spot.

>

> Also the fact the Charr aren't stupid and won't provoke a war after having troops take part in the pact actions against Kralkatorrik, and seeing that basically every major army active right now in this part of the world is on friendly terms.

>

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > > > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > > >

> > > > > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

> > > >

> > > > It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

> > >

> > > Weren't they there for the Centaurs, though?

> >

> > No. They arrived to assist with the White Mantle as a token of the peace treaty.

>

> Didn't really seem to me to be a "token" effort, as it was a sizable warband capable of operating across the entire region of Lake Doric, and the commanding officer directly states they are there to prevent the white mantle from corrupting/destroying "Everything our races have built together".

>

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > While there's definitely been _some_ cultural exchange between humans and charr, I don't think we can overstate it. We've really only seen a handful of warbands fighting alongside humans outside the Pact structure, and even in that small sample, there's been some grumbling. The bulk of the charr, assigned to their own territory, where the only humans they see on a regular basis (if any) are Separatist terrorists? There's not going to be many strong objections to renewing the conflict there.

> >

> > I agree that I don't see Smodur going that route, and that he's well enough positioned that Bangar has nothing to gain as long as Iron stands in the way... but regime change in either Iron, Kryta, or Ebonhawke could conceivably change that picture very quickly.

>

> The only grumbles I recall was from the hearts north of Ebonhawke where Charr warbands were forced to patrol/operate alongside Ebon Vanguard soldiers, and afterwards they got along better. In more recent releases there is rarely any trouble between Charr and human soldiers, the only big one being Gwen and Rytlock being uneasy about each other that I can think of.

>

> Either way, outside of a major power change in Iron Legion or Kryta, I don't see the war opening back up. Kryta is unlikely to restart the war as the traitor ministers and white mantle ministers got arrested or killed off entirely.

>

> The Charr I don't see restarting the war either as they are smart enough to not make themselves the bad guys, and the other reason is they never invaded Kryta during the period between GW1 and GW2. They attacked Ebonhawke relentelessly yes, but they never actually went after Kryta. If the charr truly wanted to conquer the world, why didn't they? This was long before the elder dragons were a thorn in anybody's side. They pretty much just wanted to completely retake Ascalon.

>

> Even with Kralkatorrik dead, the threats to Ascalon remain present. The flame legion is weakened and Withdrawn, but they are stated to be still strong enough to be a threat, simply waiting for weakness to appear. Harpies, ogres, grawl, dredge, separatists, and other forces still cause problems, and the ghosts are an even present threat, even if they aren't on Black Citadel's doorstep anymore. Also, as shown by Orr and the Maguuma, just because Kralkatorrik is dead does not mean the brand is safe. Brandstorms may very well still ravage the area (which was the biggest threat of the brand), the branded are still going to be active and any remaining dragon like champions will still be flying about.

>

> I think having the Charr-human war open up would simply be bad writing, ignoring how the world of Tyria actively works together to overcome problems, like when Rytlock and his crew stopped fighting Logan and his men to face off the greater threat of the Ogres, together. It would reduce the Charr from interesting to dull "Cat-orcs with industry". Not to mention the fact the Commander, the legendary hero who has killed three elder dragons, defeated joko in single combat, defeated and killed balthazar, came back from the dead, and traveled the entire world would be sworn to defend Kryta (if not stay neutral) due to their unofficial status among the shining blade and the oath taken. And if the commander stood against the legions, I'm leaning toward the pact, and all the allied races going toward that side.

>

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > > @"Westenev.5289" said:

> >

> > > The White Mantle comparison seems a little unfair though - the White Mantle launched a surprise attack that could probably be measured in hours, days or weeks. The Priory isn't a fighting force, and it takes time to field vigil troops. Even if Vigil troops were deployed, we were only sent to one theatre of the battle (and so, would have likely missed them). The Order of Whispers, at the very least, did send agents against Caudicus. Also, it's not like DR is helpless - the bulk of the fighting and relief efforts was handled by the Seraph and Exemplars.

> >

> > It was long enough for the charr to deploy troops to the region.

> >

> > That said, we've had a number of indications that the Pact just isn't what it used to be. That very same episode, in fact, the court gossip was that the orders were at each other's throats again. Hopefully, Logan's curbed that inclination somewhat, but the force he was able to put together to face Kralkatorrik doesn't seem to be anywhere near the size of what we sent after Zhaitan and Mordremoth.

>

> The force brought against Kralkatorrik at Thunderhead is pretty sizable. It's implied that the forces at dragonfall (at least to me) are literally everybody left who was able to immediately be deployed again, piled onto the airships that could fly and chasing the beacon Gorrik gave them. Even then, they put out a sizable force complete with extensive helicopter support.

 

Their are charr who keep saying the treaty is only temporary and while there are charr and humans not think about war their are charr who to start it again. Fume Brighteyes for exmaple hates humans she want to be the new Iron legion leader Fume Bright eyes becomes the new leader somehow she may break the treaty and condamn all charr who fought with humans including the Charr pact commanders my human character Tarwin fought with as traitors. The blood legion leader well support fFUme in another war with the humans but may be using Fume as well to settle his own ambitions. Also countless charr who fought with my human character Tarwin added I helped the charr, many charr well outright refuse to fight me since I help them as well most charr well see the war started By fume and blood legions warmongering leader as foolish countless charr who worked the humans in the orders would be force to decide who they are loyal too, warbands would be divided and would risk falling apart to arguing over the war and to infighting as many charr warbands have members who work with humans, and many may refuse to outright attack the humans.

 

A civil war would happen among the charr as a result. Many charr like Rytlock would be force to fight their own legions, many charr in the legions and part of it are force to fight the charr. When the war is at lasted ended the charr legions may come out crippled in some way and badly weaken the charr dreams of conquering the world nothing more then a dream then and many charr would be bitter both at the legions and at each other, many charr are upset their a civilw war had to happen just because they were condamed for working with humans other charr bitter cause they lost a war, other bitter cause charr slew charr on a large scale, many charr may abandon the legions.

Oh and many charr would demand why they do not have a Khan ur where is the Khan ur promised to lead them to victory after victory? Many charr would see that they were never going to get a Khan ur and leave the legions in bitterness upset that all they had been fighting was for nothing. The Charr LEgions in the after math of the war with the humans and their own civil war will be at risk of complete collapse.

 

It would be up to the pact commander his allies and maybe the Olkamakan charr to save what is left of the weaken war torn legions from fading away. Many humans would fell the sting of the charr legions temporary treaty and the humans of Ebonhawk may begin offenses if the yhave the strength to take back Ascalon and they might be able to depending on how weaken the legions are.

 

 

This all my point of view if a war happen.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"draxynnic.3719" said:

> I would note that the charr were at least investigating the possibility of direct action against Kryta in Sea of Sorrows before Zhaitan's rise. Whether anything would have come of it is anyone's guess, especially since the charr attempted to send a peace offering a decade or so afterwards.

>

> > @"adormtil.1605" said:

> > Well you forget the bond they have. Iron legion had to survive in the land of fire,blood and ash legion for about 1000 years. And they survived because the other legions let them survive. I doubt they will oppose and fight the other legions for the humans.

>

> Has your mother ever used the "would you jump off a cliff if your friends told you to?" line on you?

>

> The Ash Imperator, Malice Swordshadow, supports the peace. So in the hypothetical case where the Blood Legion decides unilaterally that it wants to go to war, Iron would be choosing between Blood on one side, and Ash and _every other ally or potential ally_ on the other.

>

> Furthermore, due to the charr political structure (each of the three legions are essentially independent but allied nations), for Blood Legion to resume hostilities without the blessing of the Iron Legion would first require violating Iron Legion sovereignty.

>

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> > > It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.

> > > Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts.

> >

> > Recent conflicts _which have come to an end now_. The High Legions are first and foremost a military operation, Blood chief among such. The charr are warriors, through and through, born and raised for constant conflict. With victory over most of them, charr will seek out a new conflict, and if one doesn't come to them, they will no doubt make one. That is your "something that incites desire to break it in a poignant way".

> >

> > The charr, above all else, is a race of war. They will never thrive in peaceful times. It would make no sense, not as they are now, with warbands and fahrars and a military hierarchy from top to bottom. And if there is no war for them to fight in, they will make a war. And humans are the most ideal targets for such a thing, with all other threats gone or reduced to a paltry annoyance.

>

> Charr society is organised like an army, but I don't think it follows that they're destined to be a race of war forever.

>

> There are roles in that organisation which, in a more conventional would be regarded as civilian in nature. You'd expect there to be, after all - otherwise, their society would simply fall apart. Having developed into an industrial society, they're entering a phase where the benefits from peaceful trade might outweigh the benefits from conquest - or at least provide a viable alternative. Ultimately, there's probably not a huge amount of difference between running a Legion like an army and running it like a giant megacorporation-state, except for how it goes about securing the resources it can't produce itself.

 

Their are charr who keep saying the treaty is only temporary and while there are charr and humans not think about war their are charr who want to start it again. Fume Brighteyes for exmaple hates humans she want to be the new Iron legion leader Fume Bright eyes becomes the new leader somehow she may break the treaty and condom all charr who fought with humans including the Charr pact commanders my human character Tarwin fought with as traitors. The blood legion leader well support fFUme in another war with the humans but may be using Fume as well to settle his own ambitions. Also countless charr who fought with my human character Tarwin added I helped the charr, many charr well outright refuse to fight me since I help them as well most charr well see the war started By fume and blood legions warmongering leader as foolish countless charr who worked the humans in the orders would be force to decide who they are loyal too, warbands would be divided and would risk falling apart to arguing over the war and to infighting as many charr warbands have members who work with humans, and many may refuse to outright attack the humans.

 

A civil war would happen among the charr as a result. Many charr like Rytlock would be force to fight their own legions, many charr in the legions and part of it are force to fight the charr. When the war is at lasted ended the charr legions may come out crippled in some way and badly weaken the charr dreams of conquering the world nothing more then a dream then and many charr would be bitter both at the legions and at each other, many charr are upset their a civilw war had to happen just because they were condamed for working with humans other charr bitter cause they lost a war, other bitter cause charr slew charr on a large scale, many charr may abandon the legions.

Oh and many charr would demand why they do not have a Khan ur where is the Khan ur promised to lead them to victory after victory? Many charr would see that they were never going to get a Khan ur and leave the legions in bitterness upset that all they had been fighting was for nothing. The Charr LEgions in the after math of the war with the humans and their own civil war will be at risk of complete collapse.

 

It would be up to the pact commander his allies and maybe the Olkamakan charr to save what is left of the weaken war torn legions from fading away. Many humans would fell the sting of the charr legions temporary treaty and the humans of Ebonhawk may begin offenses if the yhave the strength to take back Ascalon and they might be able to depending on how weaken the legions are.

 

 

This all my point of view if a war happen.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"adormtil.1605" said:

> But there civilization is around their military what would the point of an military be if there is not an war. Why would you need hundreds of millions of soldiers if you do not war. And think from the perspective of an charr soldier trained all his life to fight and never gets to fight. Well usually what happens with soldiers that only know how to fight and never get to fight? What do they do in peace times? From what I know not good things.

 

Their are charr who keep saying the treaty is only temporary and while there are charr and humans not think about war their are charr who to start it again. Fume Brighteyes for exmaple hates humans she want to be the new Iron legion leader Fume Bright eyes becomes the new leader somehow she may break the treaty and condom all charr who fought with humans including the Charr pact commanders my human character Tarwin fought with as traitors. The blood legion leader well support fFUme in another war with the humans but may be using Fume as well to settle his own ambitions. Also countless charr who fought with my human character Tarwin added I helped the charr, many charr well outright refuse to fight me since I help them as well most charr well see the war started By fume and blood legions warmongering leader as foolish countless charr who worked the humans in the orders would be force to decide who they are loyal too, warbands would be divided and would risk falling apart to arguing over the war and to infighting as many charr warbands have members who work with humans, and many may refuse to outright attack the humans.

 

A civil war would happen among the charr as a result. Many charr like Rytlock would be force to fight their own legions, many charr in the legions and part of it are force to fight the charr. When the war is at lasted ended the charr legions may come out crippled in some way and badly weaken the charr dreams of conquering the world nothing more then a dream then and many charr would be bitter both at the legions and at each other, many charr are upset their a civilw war had to happen just because they were condamed for working with humans other charr bitter cause they lost a war, other bitter cause charr slew charr on a large scale, many charr may abandon the legions.

Oh and many charr would demand why they do not have a Khan ur where is the Khan ur promised to lead them to victory after victory? Many charr would see that they were never going to get a Khan ur and leave the legions in bitterness upset that all they had been fighting was for nothing. The Charr LEgions in the after math of the war with the humans and their own civil war will be at risk of complete collapse.

 

It would be up to the pact commander his allies and maybe the Olkamakan charr to save what is left of the weaken war torn legions from fading away. Many humans would fell the sting of the charr legions temporary treaty and the humans of Ebonhawk may begin offenses if the yhave the strength to take back Ascalon and they might be able to depending on how weaken the legions are.

 

 

This all my point of view if a war happen.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> > Recent conflicts _which have come to an end now_. The High Legions are first and foremost a military operation, Blood chief among such. The charr are warriors, through and through, born and raised for constant conflict. With victory over most of them, charr will seek out a new conflict, and if one doesn't come to them, they will no doubt make one. That is your "something that incites desire to break it in a poignant way".

>

> Yes, the major aspects of those conflicts have come to a close, but there's still cleanup of what remains. The fact that there are still well sized separatist forces (both Human and Charr) could be addressed by their renewed focus on such things now that there are soldiers and resources to allocate to answering them thoroughly. The Sentinels could use bolstering in cleaning up the Brand now that Kralk and the Shatterers are gone. If there's any Flame Legion forces/factions still out there, they can be looked at and smothered. The Foefire Cleansing, while significantly reducing the number of ghosts around for a time, hasnt completely been taken care of, so there is still the battles on that front until a means to cleanse it completely is employed.

>

> > The charr, above all else, is a race of war. They will never thrive in peaceful times. It would make no sense, not as they are now, with warbands and fahrars and a military hierarchy from top to bottom. And if there is no war for them to fight in, they will make a war. And humans are the most ideal targets for such a thing, with all other threats gone or reduced to a paltry annoyance.

>

> I do not disagree that Charr are war driven, but they've shown the capacity to focus on more than just war if it suits them towards a particular goal or objective - their motto of "Victory at any cost" is a testament to that (as Kalavier brought up). I do doubt, however, that there is any motivation to go after the humans at this time while even the paltry problems still persist. Their kind seem more likely to focus on completely crushing their opposition first before moving onto the next thing unless its a truly major priority, and without a really big reason for a push beyond a modest amount of distaste towards Humans among their numbers (which is mutually shared by some humans, naturally), it doesnt seem likely to me in the immediate future without provocation.

>

>

> > @"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said:

>

> > I doubt Cantha would be involved in such a scenario especially given that they are still established as being closed border.

>

> Its just a metaphor of how unlikely I think it is ;)

>

> > That said, it will most likely be humans who will continue to incite conflict between humans and charr. The Human/Charr treaty right now is basically a thin string that could easily snap if someone is dedicated enough to do it and given how humans usually do that, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. The Treaty right now is the same as the Tengu Accords back in GW1, and given that Bangar agreed to sign the treaty despite his hatred for human, I see the charr being more reasonable than humans at this stage. It only took Minister Wona attempting to assassinate the Tengu clan leaders to have the Tengu Accords collapse.

>

> We did have a case of Charr renegades trying to ruin the Treaty by assassinating and framing the representatives in the Vigil story steps. but that was averted without causing a fallout. I wouldnt be surprised if something similar happens again and possibly succeeds, among other actions to sow distrust to add more sparks to any friction between the two races.

>

> > @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> > I agree that I don't see Smodur going that route, and that he's well enough positioned that Bangar has nothing to gain as long as Iron stands in the way... but regime change in either Iron, Kryta, or Ebonhawke could conceivably change that picture very quickly.

>

> I think that's what's going to have to happen. Right now, the leadership of both Charr and Humanity more or less want to keep the peace between the two, even if the idea isnt too well liked in some circles. If something happened to overturn the leadership and causes enough of an escalation in friction (say, Bangar becoming Khan-Ur when its found that Smoldur was assassinated during peace talks with human representatives or something), then I could see a war breaking out.

>

 

Their are charr who keep saying the treaty is only temporary and while there are charr and humans not think about war their are charr who to start it again. Fume Brighteyes for exmaple hates humans she want to be the new Iron legion leader Fume Bright eyes becomes the new leader somehow she may break the treaty and condom all charr who fought with humans including the Charr pact commanders my human character Tarwin fought with as traitors. The blood legion leader well support fFUme in another war with the humans but may be using Fume as well to settle his own ambitions. Also countless charr who fought with my human character Tarwin added I helped the charr, many charr well outright refuse to fight me since I help them as well most charr well see the war started By fume and blood legions warmongering leader as foolish countless charr who worked the humans in the orders would be force to decide who they are loyal too, warbands would be divided and would risk falling apart to arguing over the war and to infighting as many charr warbands have members who work with humans, and many may refuse to outright attack the humans.

 

A civil war would happen among the charr as a result. Many charr like Rytlock would be force to fight their own legions, many charr in the legions and part of it are force to fight the charr. When the war is at lasted ended the charr legions may come out crippled in some way and badly weaken the charr dreams of conquering the world nothing more then a dream then and many charr would be bitter both at the legions and at each other, many charr are upset their a civilw war had to happen just because they were condamed for working with humans other charr bitter cause they lost a war, other bitter cause charr slew charr on a large scale, many charr may abandon the legions.

Oh and many charr would demand why they do not have a Khan ur where is the Khan ur promised to lead them to victory after victory? Many charr would see that they were never going to get a Khan ur and leave the legions in bitterness upset that all they had been fighting was for nothing. The Charr LEgions in the after math of the war with the humans and their own civil war will be at risk of complete collapse.

 

It would be up to the pact commander his allies and maybe the Olkamakan charr to save what is left of the weaken war torn legions from fading away. Many humans would fell the sting of the charr legions temporary treaty and the humans of Ebonhawk may begin offenses if the yhave the strength to take back Ascalon and they might be able to depending on how weaken the legions are.

 

 

This all my point of view if a war happen.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"ChronoPinoyX.7923" said:

> > @"Euthymias.7984" said:

> > It would be difficult to imagine the treaty suddenly falling through without something that incites a desire to break it in a really poignant way.

> > Bangar may not like the idea of it, but its been to the benefit of the other legions, and Blood in particular hasnt been short of work or campaigns to participate in with these recent conflicts. There are humans who arnet fond of it, but Charr presence and tech have helped them in their own united struggles on the warfronts they've taken to as well. Right now it feels like Canthans coming out of isolation and invading Kryta for conquest would be more likely than another Human vs Charr war.

>

> I doubt Cantha would be involved in such a scenario especially given that they are still established as being closed border.

>

> That said, it will most likely be humans who will continue to incite conflict between humans and charr. The Human/Charr treaty right now is basically a thin string that could easily snap if someone is dedicated enough to do it and given how humans usually do that, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case. The Treaty right now is the same as the Tengu Accords back in GW1, and given that Bangar agreed to sign the treaty despite his hatred for human, I see the charr being more reasonable than humans at this stage. It only took Minister Wona attempting to assassinate the Tengu clan leaders to have the Tengu Accords collapse.

 

Their are charr who keep saying the treaty is only temporary and while there are charr and humans not think about war their are charr who to start it again. Fume Brighteyes for exmaple hates humans she want to be the new Iron legion leader Fume Bright eyes becomes the new leader somehow she may break the treaty and condom all charr who fought with humans including the Charr pact commanders my human character Tarwin fought with as traitors. The blood legion leader well support fFUme in another war with the humans but may be using Fume as well to settle his own ambitions. Also countless charr who fought with my human character Tarwin added I helped the charr, many charr well outright refuse to fight me since I help them as well most charr well see the war started By fume and blood legions warmongering leader as foolish countless charr who worked the humans in the orders would be force to decide who they are loyal too, warbands would be divided and would risk falling apart to arguing over the war and to infighting as many charr warbands have members who work with humans, and many may refuse to outright attack the humans.

 

A civil war would happen among the charr as a result. Many charr like Rytlock would be force to fight their own legions, many charr in the legions and part of it are force to fight the charr. When the war is at lasted ended the charr legions may come out crippled in some way and badly weaken the charr dreams of conquering the world nothing more then a dream then and many charr would be bitter both at the legions and at each other, many charr are upset their a civilw war had to happen just because they were condamed for working with humans other charr bitter cause they lost a war, other bitter cause charr slew charr on a large scale, many charr may abandon the legions.

Oh and many charr would demand why they do not have a Khan ur where is the Khan ur promised to lead them to victory after victory? Many charr would see that they were never going to get a Khan ur and leave the legions in bitterness upset that all they had been fighting was for nothing. The Charr LEgions in the after math of the war with the humans and their own civil war will be at risk of complete collapse.

 

It would be up to the pact commander his allies and maybe the Olkamakan charr to save what is left of the weaken war torn legions from fading away. Many humans would fell the sting of the charr legions temporary treaty and the humans of Ebonhawk may begin offenses if the yhave the strength to take back Ascalon and they might be able to depending on how weaken the legions are.

 

 

This all my point of view if a war happen.

[adormtil.1605]

Is there any case where an civil war made the army where the war happened even stronger? Do you not have more veteran soldiers as an result better commander, generals, imperators or tribunes?

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"adormtil.1605" said:

> Is there any case where an civil war made the army where the war happened even stronger? Do you not have more veteran soldiers as an result better commander, generals, imperators or tribunes?

 

The charr legions in a sense to me would come out stronger but also weaken in unity because at the foolishness of Fume and Banger started a war to wipe Ascalonian humans in Ebonhawk including the pact commander me because I'm an ascalonain human fighter.( but I love female charr even if they do not like me back.) And the charr would have fought each other as many won't fight against the humans, warbands divided by loyalty to the legions as many charr are condammed for fighting with humans.

While many charr would come out strong their spirit may be broken cause the charr dream of having a new khan ur and conquering the world is never gonna come true then many charr would want to know what do they do now. If the charr rebuilt why should they will be the question many charr will want to know if they are not going to fight any more wars that are not justified what are they suppose to do rebuilt and be peaceful-like as the humans and the olmakan charr. Many charr will not want to follow the peaceful ways where they cannot fight wars that are not justified. Now the charr would fight on the side of the pact commander have a high chance to keep the legions from falling apart but it will be a struggle as many charr well abandon the legions and fall into survival of the fitness mostly male charr fall into that idea. Oh and charr cubs caught up in the civil war in fighting, and either are killed by other charr for any number of reasons, many charr cubs are scared and having to hide cause no matter what they were taught on how to fight the charr cubs are scared to die. Many of these charr cubs would not want to be fighting in wars when they grow up because of the war and civil war. Oh and crippled and wounded charr and do recover from their injuries may outright refuse to fight in any war again cause they lost something in the war with the humans and or the civil war. Many charr would have a look of their at a loss of what to do.

But yes the army of charr during the civil war on both sides may be stronger but divide in unity as inity dose not exist among the legions really as they keep talking how their legion will have a khan ur and be the better legion the charr believe it can happen only with a Khan ur. A khan ur cannot be from anyone of the legions he or she has to be from none of the legions to lead so no favoring or that charr dose not favor any legions over the other that is how the legions would be strong as their Khan ur cannot favor one legion its has to be all united or fall divided with a khan ur or not.

 

If you have any more questions on anything else I try and answer to what you ask.

[adormtil.1605]

You seem to assume an civil war will have no winner. But what if one side wins and the leader becomes Khan. A highly militarized race in an civil war well lets just put it like this will it not bring quite some talent and power at the end since the winner has to be the better, smarter, stronger, with better leadership to beat an enemy that are raised their entire life for war trained to be better, smarter, stronger in war the the other race. The winner will be the best of the best in war.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"adormtil.1605" said:

> You seem to assume an civil war will have no winner. But what if one side wins and the leader becomes Khan. A highly militarized race in an civil war well lets just put it like this will it not bring quite some talent and power at the end since the winner has to be the better, smarter, stronger, with better leadership to beat an enemy that are raised their entire life for war trained to be better, smarter, stronger in war the the other race. The winner will be the best of the best in war.

 

Oh no their be a winner.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"adormtil.1605" said:

> You seem to assume an civil war will have no winner. But what if one side wins and the leader becomes Khan. A highly militarized race in an civil war well lets just put it like this will it not bring quite some talent and power at the end since the winner has to be the better, smarter, stronger, with better leadership to beat an enemy that are raised their entire life for war trained to be better, smarter, stronger in war the the other race. The winner will be the best of the best in war.

 

But which side on the civil war and the war with the humans is stronger?

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"adormtil.1605" said:

> You seem to assume an civil war will have no winner. But what if one side wins and the leader becomes Khan. A highly militarized race in an civil war well lets just put it like this will it not bring quite some talent and power at the end since the winner has to be the better, smarter, stronger, with better leadership to beat an enemy that are raised their entire life for war trained to be better, smarter, stronger in war the the other race. The winner will be the best of the best in war.

 

Most likely Fume and Banger would be the strongest power at first and my side as Tarwin weaker but then is becomes seen that the charr are divided in this war with the humans and a civil war happens among the charr. Oh ans Ash legion dose not support the war with the humans but their are still ash who hate humans. And at first their are victorys against the humans in Ebonhawk but their not really as popular among the charr who thought the peace was gonna last and did not believe their be another war with humans. Also Fume may have come to power thought trickery Smobur may be alive but as a prisoner or he may be dead. Banger may support fume but he hates Iron legions still and is just using Fume this results in charr now saying if your warband has any iron blood or ash charr not from your legions he or she is kicked out.

[Telwyn.1630]

The charr who praise Tarwin young and old would have to decide who to side with either stay loyal to Fume and banger or stand against them, this what would divided the charr as they get orders to kill Tarwin cause he is from ascalon, and even if they praise him Tarwin is still human.

[Telwyn.1630]

> @"adormtil.1605" said:

> You seem to assume an civil war will have no winner. But what if one side wins and the leader becomes Khan. A highly militarized race in an civil war well lets just put it like this will it not bring quite some talent and power at the end since the winner has to be the better, smarter, stronger, with better leadership to beat an enemy that are raised their entire life for war trained to be better, smarter, stronger in war the the other race. The winner will be the best of the best in war.

 

Also Fume would either die fighting bitterly dermine to kill you if your human, or a charr who fought with humans, or Fume after being beaten may surrender after seeing how Banger used her, and left her to die and take the heat for starting the war, and for weakening the legions unity and strength, and give up only because she at lasts admits defeat, Banger on the other hand would die fighting dermine to kill as many humans and traitor charr as he can. Fume would either be sentenced to death or as punishment as death to good for her be kicked out of the legions her warband if their not all dead, and out of ascalon, and away from charr land. Fume Brighteyes then would be full of grief as she knows she weaken her people all because of desire to destroy the humans of Ascalon. Fume may have a chance to redeem her among the olmakan charr.

 

AS for the legions they have a high chance to recover and rebuild what they lost but humans of ascalon may want all their ruin town and cities that were destroyed in the searing back as a show that the charr legions are serious about the new peace treaty for real.

[Tremor.7481]

Rytlock has always pushed for cooperation even in the period's when he and Logan couldn't stand each other's presence.

 

Isn't Gwen legendary for the number of Charr she's taken out, and the Mists version clearly in her prime?

 

I think it was more if Hulagu Kahn's ghost showed up to work with you on civic improvement projects in Baghdad. There would be some natural trepidation.

[adormtil.1605]

Oh mongols yes. You see before the great khan of their empire started his empire he had an devastating civil war in terms of losses with his blood brother which he eventually won. After an devastating civil war he kicked the ass of everyone. Why because the army that won the civil war was more experienced had better tactics and had better warriors because of the civil war as it required them to chance.