BUG: Scourge triggers double sand shade (actually all of them)

[The Ace.9105]

> @savacli.8172 said:

> > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > Which again doesn't make any sense cause it essentially forces scourge to be a melee class. This seems like a bug for me and i can't find any other logical reasons for this kind of shade behavior other than necro fanboys crying for op builds. Reaper was the melee spec of necromancer. Why is scourge melee too when anet's intentions is to add more play styles?

>

> It's not a bug; it's intentional design....Dhuumfire aside (that one may be a legitimate bug). Not letting the "shatter" affect multiple targets would really take away from Shroud 1 traits. As in you're going from something like Reaper shroud 1 cleaving targets multiple times a second to the occasional Shroud Shatter every couple of seconds. It's more bursty in that sense but overall I image that it evens out. As in, in 30 seconds I would expect to see similar condi and boon application from the Death/Reaper Shroud 1 auto-attacks as I would see from the spread out shatters from shade skills.

>

> Scourge does not at all play like Reaper. I mean, you can make it that way if you want to but that's not the full potential of the class. I personally like the idea of having a remote node causing disruption. If I had to compare it to something I would say that Scourge summons something like spirits (think Ranger Spirits) at a range and then you have several command options to determine what effect they will grant. Whether you want to lump up your "spirits" or not is up to you, but I wouldn't expect 4 Frost spirits in proximity of my to grant me a chance at +40%, but when they go boom I do expect 4 chill fields to affect everyone in range, doubly, triply, or quaduply so if there is overlap in their field radii.

 

Still the fact is that scourge is op in pvp as it is atm and if anet would fix this bug (which it definitely is even when you fanboy over it) would make scourge more balanced and I could even see that it's a reasonable fix in terms of pvp. I might even go as far to say that scourge wouldn't need other "nerfs" in terms of damage.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @savacli.8172 said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > Which again doesn't make any sense cause it essentially forces scourge to be a melee class. This seems like a bug for me and i can't find any other logical reasons for this kind of shade behavior other than necro fanboys crying for op builds. Reaper was the melee spec of necromancer. Why is scourge melee too when anet's intentions is to add more play styles?

> >

> > It's not a bug; it's intentional design....Dhuumfire aside (that one may be a legitimate bug). Not letting the "shatter" affect multiple targets would really take away from Shroud 1 traits. As in you're going from something like Reaper shroud 1 cleaving targets multiple times a second to the occasional Shroud Shatter every couple of seconds. It's more bursty in that sense but overall I image that it evens out. As in, in 30 seconds I would expect to see similar condi and boon application from the Death/Reaper Shroud 1 auto-attacks as I would see from the spread out shatters from shade skills.

> >

> > Scourge does not at all play like Reaper. I mean, you can make it that way if you want to but that's not the full potential of the class. I personally like the idea of having a remote node causing disruption. If I had to compare it to something I would say that Scourge summons something like spirits (think Ranger Spirits) at a range and then you have several command options to determine what effect they will grant. Whether you want to lump up your "spirits" or not is up to you, but I wouldn't expect 4 Frost spirits in proximity of my to grant me a chance at +40%, but when they go boom I do expect 4 chill fields to affect everyone in range, doubly, triply, or quaduply so if there is overlap in their field radii.

>

> Still the fact is that scourge is op in pvp as it is atm and if anet would fix this bug (which it definitely is even when you fanboy over it) would make scourge more balanced and I could even see that it's a reasonable fix in terms of pvp. I might even go as far to say that scourge wouldn't need other "nerfs".

 

We still have no proof its a bug so you nor anyone in this thread can or should attempt to state their opinion like it is a fact. Also if you think its the few extra stacks of torment killing people you're not really hitting the mark on that one.

[Kam.4092]

Idc what they do to Scourge in PvP, as long as they split balance, and leave PvE alone.

[savacli.8172]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> Still the fact is that scourge is op in pvp as it is atm....

 

And there it is....the moment I lost faith in the post. Scourge has a new mechanic that players are having to adopt to. Everyone remember when DHunters were considered OP in PvP?

 

The biggest weakness here is that Scourge lose their Shroud which is a huge damage soak doubly so because direct damage is halved when you still have Life Force to take the blow. Barriers are nice and all, but they don't equate to the same durability as a Shroud at a personal level. So, what if you get a Scourge that dropped all of his Shades on the Capture point? Well, I mean, you'd be walking into a suicide mission trying to throw him off that point. But, by the same token, he's got all of his cards on that capture point so just pew pew him from afar. You get a shade summoned on you at range? Side step. It sounds really simple because it really is. A lot of folks are just feeding a Scourge in matches because they run in trying to flip the point or just front load conditions thinking that will cripple hm (no pun intended). Well, not only did you walk into your own death but now you got a Scourge on roids from all the condis he just flipped into boons.

 

One the L2P issue is out of the way then balance can be done from a more appropriate perspective.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> because direct damage is halved when you still have Life Force to take the blow

 

Just to point out shroud halves all types of incoming damage including fall damage, its been tested multiple times. Its essentially twice its value in decaying health Its a fairly substantial loss in health soak by taking scourge.

[Nyel.1843]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @savacli.8172 said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > Devs stated clearly that you can get hit only by 1 shade at a time in stream.

> >

> > It's a stream, not absolute law. For the majority of the shade mechanic that's true (the 1 shade hit limit), but as I wrote out in my previous post there is one mechanic of the shade that does stack when you overlap your targets between yourself and your shades.

>

> Which again doesn't make any sense cause it essentially forces scourge to be a melee class. This seems like a bug for me and i can't find any other logical reasons for this kind of shade behavior other than necro fanboys crying for op builds. Reaper was the melee spec of necromancer. Why is scourge melee too when anet's intentions is to add more play styles?

 

Well, if you're using Torch (which you should as Condi Scourge) you're in Melee range. So it really doesn't matter. And the Necromancer is no Shade but acts like one. That might be the difference here. So it's always 1 Necromancer + 1 Shade that affects the target (even if you have 3 Shades up).

 

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @savacli.8172 said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > Which again doesn't make any sense cause it essentially forces scourge to be a melee class. This seems like a bug for me and i can't find any other logical reasons for this kind of shade behavior other than necro fanboys crying for op builds. Reaper was the melee spec of necromancer. Why is scourge melee too when anet's intentions is to add more play styles?

> >

> > It's not a bug; it's intentional design....Dhuumfire aside (that one may be a legitimate bug). Not letting the "shatter" affect multiple targets would really take away from Shroud 1 traits. As in you're going from something like Reaper shroud 1 cleaving targets multiple times a second to the occasional Shroud Shatter every couple of seconds. It's more bursty in that sense but overall I image that it evens out. As in, in 30 seconds I would expect to see similar condi and boon application from the Death/Reaper Shroud 1 auto-attacks as I would see from the spread out shatters from shade skills.

> >

> > Scourge does not at all play like Reaper. I mean, you can make it that way if you want to but that's not the full potential of the class. I personally like the idea of having a remote node causing disruption. If I had to compare it to something I would say that Scourge summons something like spirits (think Ranger Spirits) at a range and then you have several command options to determine what effect they will grant. Whether you want to lump up your "spirits" or not is up to you, but I wouldn't expect 4 Frost spirits in proximity of my to grant me a chance at +40%, but when they go boom I do expect 4 chill fields to affect everyone in range, doubly, triply, or quaduply so if there is overlap in their field radii.

>

> Still the fact is that scourge is op in pvp as it is atm and if anet would fix this bug (which it definitely is even when you fanboy over it) would make scourge more balanced and I could even see that it's a reasonable fix in terms of pvp. I might even go as far to say that scourge wouldn't need other "nerfs" in terms of damage.

 

So we nerf Scourge in PvP because some players don't use Condi Removers and make Scourge in PvE even worse? Sounds like a great deal.

[Arzurag.7506]

> @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > @savacli.8172 said:

> > > @"The Ace.9105" said:

> > > Which again doesn't make any sense cause it essentially forces scourge to be a melee class. This seems like a bug for me and i can't find any other logical reasons for this kind of shade behavior other than necro fanboys crying for op builds. Reaper was the melee spec of necromancer. Why is scourge melee too when anet's intentions is to add more play styles?

> >

> > It's not a bug; it's intentional design....Dhuumfire aside (that one may be a legitimate bug). Not letting the "shatter" affect multiple targets would really take away from Shroud 1 traits. As in you're going from something like Reaper shroud 1 cleaving targets multiple times a second to the occasional Shroud Shatter every couple of seconds. It's more bursty in that sense but overall I image that it evens out. As in, in 30 seconds I would expect to see similar condi and boon application from the Death/Reaper Shroud 1 auto-attacks as I would see from the spread out shatters from shade skills.

> >

> > Scourge does not at all play like Reaper. I mean, you can make it that way if you want to but that's not the full potential of the class. I personally like the idea of having a remote node causing disruption. If I had to compare it to something I would say that Scourge summons something like spirits (think Ranger Spirits) at a range and then you have several command options to determine what effect they will grant. Whether you want to lump up your "spirits" or not is up to you, but I wouldn't expect 4 Frost spirits in proximity of my to grant me a chance at +40%, but when they go boom I do expect 4 chill fields to affect everyone in range, doubly, triply, or quaduply so if there is overlap in their field radii.

>

> Still the fact is that scourge is op in pvp as it is atm and if anet would fix this bug (which it definitely is even when you fanboy over it) would make scourge more balanced and I could even see that it's a reasonable fix in terms of pvp. I might even go as far to say that scourge wouldn't need other "nerfs" in terms of damage.

 

Well, Scourge is not OP because we traited utility and damage for survivability.

We essentially lost our -50% damage armor and and still have to cover round about 20k health with no evades, no blocks, no invulnerability to do so.

Yes, we got barrier which is a poor trade-off due fast decay and a few more reasons.

Anyway, it´s completely fine by me that we got a bit (useless) utility and (what I appreciate) more damage in exchange for selfish survivability and that is, what denies the statement that scourge is OP.

[Rym.1469]

Okay, so this is how it works:

 

* None of the traits besides Unyielding Blast seem to be affected by the "stacking". So no double dhuumfire, path of corruption etc.

* Stacking bug requires only player+shade, it has the same outcome for player+2x shade and player+3x shade

* Torment and Cripple application from Manifest Shade/Shade attack (however you call it) is doubled when player and shade stack and hit the target. So instead of 1 torment it applies 2 torment etc. Instead of 8 torment from F5 this bug/feature applies 15 torment.

 

As pointed out, it hardly looks like an intended design. As far as I remember ArenaNet's explanations Shades are not intended to stack and player character is considered as one (with bug/difference for F5).

Doubling torment application is likely a big part of the reason behind ridiculous condition insta-nukes in PvP on point from Scourge who waltzes over F1-F5 keys.

Seems like the way of resolving this issue is simply doubling duration of Shade attack conditions in PvE to compensate (maybe increasing the duration in PvP/WvW a tiny bit, too) and bugfixing the issue in all gamemodes.

 

It's also good to keep in mind that in a lot of PvP situations right now Scourge lives not because it has good defense (this defense is actually rather poor), but because it can randomly wipe the floor with attackers with condition nuke. If the damage goes down, survivability could receive some buffs.

 

 

 

 

[savacli.8172]

Okay, so got a bit of a chance to test things out last night:

 

* Unyielding Blast is 2 stacks of Vulnerability per shade (up to 8 stacks), but Dhuumfire is only 1 stack altogether which seems odd since both the burning and vulnerability stacks appear in the tooltip with no ICD mention which implies they both benefit from stacking. So that itself might be a bug one way or the other (the burning application not stacking or the lack of ICD mention).

* Reaper's Might only grants the Necro 1 stack of might when summoning a Shade

* Path of Corruption correctly applies to Shroud skill 2 but doesn't stack (makes sense since Scourge Shroud 2 effects don't anyway).

* ~~Transfusion....that one I have no idea how it works with Scourge. It looked like each shade pulsed out a certain heal amount/revive percentage? But then you run into the issue that each shade shouldn't overlap. So maybe each shade/Necro pulse a static amount of health?~~ Transfusions causes you to teleport allies to the you when you cast F4 if you are within range, and then you pulse healing for about 10 second (ish). So, think of it as a unique regen. The huge note here being that you now get your own healing from Transfusion.

* Furious Demise (fury when entering Shroud) is tied to Shroud 5 for Scourge

[Artemis Thuras.8795]

f5: Enter the desert shroud, gaining a powerful barrier and pulsing necrotic energy around you and your sand shades.

**Targets affected by this ability can only be affected once per pulse.**

 

So the pulse around the shades is not a bug. If being hit by the effect more than once/pulse ( ie hit by scourge AND by shade in a single pulse then that's a bug).

 

f1: Manifest a sand shade using some of your life force. **Whenever you use a shade ability, you and your sand shades strike nearby foes.**

 

On f skill use, there will also be an aoe strike around the scourge and each shade. This one-off (per skill cast) attack has no such limits on hitting a single enemy.

 

edit: also for purposes of scourge f skills, the scourge is a shade. Explained as "you and your shades" in both the tooltips copied off wiki.

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @Rym.1469 said:

> Okay, so this is how it works:

>

> * None of the traits besides Unyielding Blast seem to be affected by the "stacking". So no double dhuumfire, path of corruption etc.

Easily explained due to how skills already function. There is a difference between casting a skill and attacking. e.g. how mesmers can delay the shield phantasm or how Reapers Might will still grant you might when you finish casting F1 when jumping but you wont attack or summon a shade. Nothing besides Dhuumfires hidden ICD is strange.

 

> * Stacking bug requires only player+shade, it has the same outcome for player+2x shade and player+3x shade

> * Torment and Cripple application from Manifest Shade/Shade attack (however you call it) is doubled when player and shade stack and hit the target. So instead of 1 torment it applies 2 torment etc.

 

This is flat out wrong. You will get 1+(X*Shades) worth attacks and therefore the same number of torment or cripple. If you are stood in 3 shades you will do 4 strikes of MSS applying 4 stacks of torments and cripple. e.g. you is 1 stack, you and 1 shade is 2 stacks, you and 2 shades is 3 stacks and you and 3 shades is 4 stacks. The damage will always show as one number because the game considers this a multi hit attack. Its incredibly visible in the combat log.

 

>Instead of 8 torment from F5 this bug/feature applies 15 torment.

 

Again F5 is a special case where I can actually say I feel its broken because of how the skill is designed at a base level. Not going into it again but these numbers are wrong. Stood in 3 shades and you as soon as you hit F5 the mob will get hit 5 times for 6 stacks of torment and 4 stacks of cripple. After this is will be 6 pulses of 4 hits of 5 stacks of torment and 3 stacks of cripple. The most torment you will get out of casting this skill is 36 stacks of torment and 28 stacks of cripple over 7 seconds.

 

Is it strong? Yes. Does it need to be toned down? Most likely. Is it bugged? I don't think so. I haven't seen a good reason to say its bugged besides "Well Anet said". People only seem to take Anets word as gospel when it suits them. Remind me what Anet said in the Reaper showcase again?

 

 

 

 

[The Ace.9105]

> @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> Is it strong? Yes. Does it need to be toned down? Most likely. Is it bugged? I don't think so. I haven't seen a good reason to say its bugged besides "Well Anet said". People only seem to take Anets word as gospel when it suits them. Remind me what Anet said in the Reaper showcase again?

 

Fixing the stacking would tone it down unless you want pure damage nerfs that makes necro useless again.

 

 

[savacli.8172]

I feel like a diagram would solve most of this confusion. But yeah. The underlying feature being that anytime any of your F1-F5 skills are used there is a damage effect that does the following: tiny bit of damage, applies 2s of cripple, applies 2s or Torment, and applies additional effects based on inherited traits that modify Shroud Skill 1.

 

Bluntly put, from gathered notes and personal testing:

 

_**Effect that happens EVERY time you invoke an F-Skill ("Shatter")**_

 

* Up to 3 enemy targets receive a tiny amount of damage

* Up to 3 enemy targets receive 2 seconds of cripple

* Up to 3 enemy target receive 2 seconds of torment

* Up to 3 enemy targets receive 10 seconds of Vulnerability x2 (_requires Unyielding Blast Trait_)

 

**Note:** The above effects are centered around the Scourge and each shade. The above effects **can** affect the same target resulting in an enemy target receiving up to 4 applications of the above effect if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades.

**Note 2:** Sand Savant Trait will change the number of enemy targets affected from 3 to 5, but reduces the maximum number of applications from 4 to 2 as you can only have one shade out at a time.

**Note 3:** If Demonic Lore Trait is selected each enemy target will receive a stack of burning due to the trait applying burning to a target inflicted with Torment (3 second ICD unique per per target)

 

_**Casting Manifest Sand Shade**_

 

* A new Sand Shade is summoned

* You gain 1 stack of might when casting this skill (_requires Reaper's Might Trait_)

* Up to 3 enemy targets will receive 1 stack of burning (_requires Dhuumfire Trait_)

* Up to 3 enemy targets will receive 1 stack of burning (_requires Sadistic Searing Trait and a Punishment skill being used prior to casting MSS)

 

**Note:** The burning effect is centered around the Scourge and each shade. The burning effect **cannot** affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 2 application of burning even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade. (Personal note: it's weird that the burning from Dhuumfire doesn't stack when the Vulnerability from Unyielding Blast does).

**Note 2:** The burning effect from Dhuumfire will hit up to 5 targets if traited for Sand Savant

 

_**Casting Nefarious Favor**_

 

* Up to 5 allied targets have 2 of their conditions converted into boons

* Up to 3 enemy targets have 2 of their coons converted in conditions (_requires Path of Corruption Trait_)

 

**Note:** The above effects are centered around the Scourge and each shade. The above effects **cannot** affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 1 application of the above effect even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade.

**Note 2:** The Boon Corruption effect from Path of Corruption will hit up to 5 targets if traited for Sand Savant

 

_**Casting Sand Cascade**_

 

* Up to 5 allied targets receive a barrier

**Note:** The barrier effect is centered around the Scourge and each shade. The barrier effect **cannot** affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 1 application of the barrier even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade.

 

_**Casting Garish Pillar**_

 

* Up to 5 enemy targets are inflicted with fear (tooltip says 5 despite other Shade skills on affecting 3 by default)

* Downed allies are teleported to you (_requires Transfusion Trait_)

* You pulse healing over the next 9 seconds around you (_requires Transfusion Trait_)

 

**Note:** The Fear effect is centered around the Scourge and each shade. The fear effect **cannot** affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 1 application of Fear even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade.

 

_**Casting Desert Shroud**_

 

* You apply 2x Torment on up to 5 enemy targets each second over the next 6 seconds (tooltip says 5 despite other Shade skills affecting 3 by default)

* Your Shades continuously "shatter" during while you're in Shroud

* You gain a barrier

* You gain 5 seconds Fury (_requires Furious Demise Trait_)

 

**Note:** Both Barrier and Fury application only occurs once and do not pulse. These effects do not apply to your shades.

**Note 2:** Torment application gets kinda weird hear based on feedback from others. As the Scourge your Shroud is continuously pulsing 2x Torment, but since the shatter effect is proc-ing in parallel with you and your shades you have an additional 4x Torment that can apply be applied at each "shatter" along with any other effect your "shatter" is traited for. Long Story Short: your shroud is hitting its own set of 5 targets, while you and your shades are also hitting their own 5 sets of targets during their shatter.

 

Edit: Changed a bit of text as a result of feedback below

Edit 2: I guess to bring things back full circle there are two bugs here. The inherited traits from Shroud 1 are not very well explained in the tool tip in regards to what occurs during the cast and what occurs during the shatter. Second bug being that the behavior of F5 isn't well described as to what skills/effects are being invoked while you are in that shroud.

[Rym.1469]

> @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> > @Rym.1469 said:

> > (...)

>

> This is flat out wrong. You will get 1+(X*Shades) worth attacks and therefore the same number of torment or cripple. If you are stood in 3 shades you will do 4 strikes of MSS applying 4 stacks of torments and cripple. e.g. you is 1 stack, you and 1 shade is 2 stacks, you and 2 shades is 3 stacks and you and 3 shades is 4 stacks. The damage will always show as one number because the game considers this a multi hit attack. Its incredibly visible in the combat log.

>

> >(...)

>

> Again F5 is a special case where I can actually say I feel its broken because of how the skill is designed at a base level. Not going into it again but these numbers are wrong. Stood in 3 shades and you as soon as you hit F5 the mob will get hit 5 times for 6 stacks of torment and 4 stacks of cripple. After this is will be 6 pulses of 4 hits of 5 stacks of torment and 3 stacks of cripple. The most torment you will get out of casting this skill is 36 stacks of torment and 28 stacks of cripple over 7 seconds.

 

 

Thanks for correcting me. I admit I haven't tested properly, just hopped in to test how it looks. You're absolutely right - I missed it - that all shades attack, not just one - was to do with tormenting sigil on my weapon, which I had falsely taken into account. That makes it even more disproportional from how it was supposed to work.

[Sigmoid.7082]

>Note 2: The pulsing effect is centered around the Scourge and each shade. The pulsing effect cannot affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 2 stacks of torment every second even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade.

 

Again this is wrong because

 

>when you used F5 only your character would be the only one to use the skill named Desert Shroud and the shades would repeatedly cast manifest sand shade. This showed in the combat log and could clearly be seen in the fact that you are the only one who causes 2 stacks of torment and nothing else whereas your shades proc shroud traits such as dhuumfire and unyielding blast.

 

Its the easiest thing to test but people keep misquoting. Your attack doesnt stack and does less damage. Theirs stacks and does more damage per hit. The exact numbers and behaviour of ,you guessed it, MSS. The only reason you cannot affect the same target with the skill is since you are technically the only one using it.

[savacli.8172]

> @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> >Note 2: The pulsing effect is centered around the Scourge and each shade. The pulsing effect cannot affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 2 stacks of torment every second even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade.

>

> Again this is wrong because

>

> >when you used F5 only your character would be the only one to use the skill named Desert Shroud and the shades would repeatedly cast manifest sand shade. This showed in the combat log and could clearly be seen in the fact that you are the only one who causes 2 stacks of torment and nothing else whereas your shades proc shroud traits such as dhuumfire and unyielding blast.

>

> Its the easiest thing to test but people keep misquoting.

 

That....doesn't really makes sense. Well, at least according to the tooltip. It would be nice if they fixed the text of that so it gives you a better idea of what goes into that skill. I'll do some clean up on my previous post

[savacli.8172]

Double post or fat fingered this reply. Whoops

[Sigmoid.7082]

> @savacli.8172 said:

> > @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> > >Note 2: The pulsing effect is centered around the Scourge and each shade. The pulsing effect cannot affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 2 stacks of torment every second even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade.

> >

> > Again this is wrong because

> >

> > >when you used F5 only your character would be the only one to use the skill named Desert Shroud and the shades would repeatedly cast manifest sand shade. This showed in the combat log and could clearly be seen in the fact that you are the only one who causes 2 stacks of torment and nothing else whereas your shades proc shroud traits such as dhuumfire and unyielding blast.

> >

> > Its the easiest thing to test but people keep misquoting.

>

> That....doesn't really makes sense. Well, at least according to the tooltip. It would be nice if they fixed the text of that so it gives you a better idea of what goes into that skill. I'll do some clean up on my previous post

 

It makes far more sense if you read my other post or played during beta and read your combat log. They **manually** went in changed the name of the skill.

 

>as many of you know in the betas when you used F5 only your character would be the only one to use the skill named Desert Shroud and the shades would repeatedly cast manifest sand shade. This showed in the combat log and could clearly be seen in the fact that you are the only one who causes 2 stacks of torment and nothing else whereas your shades proc shroud traits such as dhuumfire and unyielding blast. This is still the case but they went in and changed this so when you cast F5 even the initial strike caused by your shades has been renamed to Desert Shroud when it should be Manifest Sand Shade. As they arent even using the skill this is the only reason I consider F5 to be the only bugged skill. Though the skill is not technically stacking its a pseudo stacking effect.

 

At a design level the skill is different.

[Patrick.2987]

Still not working as intended as i think at least is f1 proc affecting dhuumfire on shades but not on yourself, even if it can only effect once, without a shade it does not proc dhuumfire on yourself. F5 does not proc f1 every pulse from yourself but only the f5 effect. On the other hand f5 only procs f5 effect only on yourself and not on shades. I think not effecting twice is right but i think intended is effecting dhuumfire by yourself or a shade on a target when triggering f1 would be correct and triggering f1+f5 each pulse no matter if it is the scourge or a shade not effecting multiple times should be correct aswell. Right now stacking shades on top of scourge and staying melee is more effective than it should, however splitting shades and scourge makes both not doing the intended damage. Correct me here if this is not the way it is supposed to be.

[savacli.8172]

> @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> > @savacli.8172 said:

> > > @Sigmoid.7082 said:

> > > >Note 2: The pulsing effect is centered around the Scourge and each shade. The pulsing effect cannot affect the same target resulting in a target receiving up to 2 stacks of torment every second even if said target is within proximity of you and all 3 shades or you and 1 Savant Shade.

> > >

> > > Again this is wrong because

> > >

> > > >when you used F5 only your character would be the only one to use the skill named Desert Shroud and the shades would repeatedly cast manifest sand shade. This showed in the combat log and could clearly be seen in the fact that you are the only one who causes 2 stacks of torment and nothing else whereas your shades proc shroud traits such as dhuumfire and unyielding blast.

> > >

> > > Its the easiest thing to test but people keep misquoting.

> >

> > That....doesn't really makes sense. Well, at least according to the tooltip. It would be nice if they fixed the text of that so it gives you a better idea of what goes into that skill. I'll do some clean up on my previous post

>

> It makes far more sense if you read my other post or played during beta and read your combat log. They **manually** went in changed the name of the skill.

>

> >as many of you know in the betas when you used F5 only your character would be the only one to use the skill named Desert Shroud and the shades would repeatedly cast manifest sand shade. This showed in the combat log and could clearly be seen in the fact that you are the only one who causes 2 stacks of torment and nothing else whereas your shades proc shroud traits such as dhuumfire and unyielding blast. This is still the case but they went in and changed this so when you cast F5 even the initial strike caused by your shades has been renamed to Desert Shroud when it should be Manifest Sand Shade. As they arent even using the skill this is the only reason I consider F5 to be the only bugged skill. Though the skill is not technically stacking its a pseudo stacking effect.

>

> At a design level the skill is different.

 

Nope, gotta admit Scourge wasn't one of the ones I looked at during Beta. The "doesn't make sense" part being me looking at this post-expansion-launch. I'm reading the tooltip expecting one behavior while the outcome is not what I was expecting. From the verbiage alone I would think me and my Shades all go into a shroud. Though, technically even if my shades are shrouded or are just shattering they are "pulsing necrotic energy".

 

Anyways, thanks for the clear-up/testing there, but I'm definitely holding up a holding up the "bug" flag for the mismatch there. Whether the skill itself is working as intended at the mechanic level? Well, that much is beyond me.

[Muchacho.2390]

It doesnt matter if it is a bug or not. The stacking feels to strong in pvp/wvw so i expect it ether get nerfed or bug fixed (depending wether you see it as a bug or not).

[Stanky.4018]

It specifically says on the Manifest Sand Shade tooltip... "Whenever you use a shade ability, **YOU AND YOUR** sand shades strike nearby enemies.. " Soo..... Also, you cannot stack "15 stacks of torment per second" I tried all 3 shades on a target and I still get the same amount of torment I'd get if I only had 1 shade up.