Upcoming Thief Changes - Discussion Topic

[ArcanistSeven.8720]

as someone who occasionally plays condi P/D i see this as a nerf because the whole burst combo was get in close use 3, steal, 3 ,infiltrators signet, 3 then proceed to kite. now that repeater is added its ruined one of my favorite builds along side medic thief in wvw. GG anet im gonna give ESO a try.

[DemonSeed.3528]

> @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said:

> as someone who occasionally plays condi P/D i see this as a nerf because the whole burst combo was get in close use 3, steal, 3 ,infiltrators signet, 3 then proceed to kite. now that repeater is added its ruined one of my favorite builds along side medic thief in wvw. GG anet im gonna give ESO a try.

 

Won't that still work with the combo? as long as you don't use offhand melee? repeater doesn't get set off unless you melee with offhand dagger so I think your combo should still work.

[saerni.2584]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> > @"ArcanistSeven.8720" said:

> > as someone who occasionally plays condi P/D i see this as a nerf because the whole burst combo was get in close use 3, steal, 3 ,infiltrators signet, 3 then proceed to kite. now that repeater is added its ruined one of my favorite builds along side medic thief in wvw. GG anet im gonna give ESO a try.

>

> Won't that still work with the combo? as long as you don't use offhand melee? repeater doesn't get set off unless you melee with offhand dagger so I think your combo should still work.

 

Shadowstrike is a melee attack that teleports you backwards and shoots a high damage shot if you hit with the melee attack.

 

Edit: You will then gain access to Repeater under the changes, which will stay for four seconds or until you use the ability.

 

I’ll note that it may stay flipped until the channel is finished or broken (stow weapon will probably work).

 

I’d say there are two directions I’d accept for Repeater. Either it needs more utility to justify the lower damage or it needs more damage without utility. A direct comparison is Unload which has both Might stacking and Damage and Initiatve return.

 

Using the same stats as above Unload does 291x8 (2328) over 1.5 seconds, adds 8 might and returns 1 initiative for a net cost of 5 initiative. This works out to 1552 base (pre crit) DPS with added utility.

 

For Repeater to make sense as a flip skill it needs to be better than auto attack either through utility or damage. Keeping it as pure damage with no utility and comparing it to Unload there should be around 2500 total damage (or a roughly 150% damage buff).

 

If utility is the goal then Anet can decide what kind of utility makes sense for P/D. Repeater can always add a variety of conditions or do more damage to targets with torment on them based on how much torment there is. Repeater could also boon corrupt for another option. Maybe Repeater could be unblockable.

 

 

 

 

[DemonSeed.3528]

Ahh, I wasn't counting ss in the equation, was only thinking of dagger 5 would set it off and not from the same skill that would flip it. Thanks for explaining. What if it could only be set off from cnd? Would that help?

[saerni.2584]

> @"DemonSeed.3528" said:

> Ahh, I wasn't counting ss in the equation, was only thinking of dagger 5 would set it off and not from the same skill that would flip it. Thanks for explaining. What if it could only be set off from cnd? Would that help?

 

No, because the stealth from CnD lets you use Sneak Attack. Again, using the same stats as above, Sneak Attack is 1300/1800 power and bleed damage for no initiative so there isn’t any reason to chose Repeater over it.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

> > > > > * Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)

> > > > > * Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)

> > > > > * Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)

> > > > > * Range: 900 (no change)

> > > > > * Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

> > > >

> > > > A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

> > > >

> > > > Here's a compromise;

> > > > - Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.

> > > > - Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

> > > >

> > > > Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.

> > > > Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.

> > > > Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

> > > >

> > > > I think I can live with that.

> > >

> > > It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

> >

> > If Repeater (flip) will cost 4, how much will Shadow Strike cost? Also 4?

>

> Yes because that’s it’s current cost. The follow up shot damage is pretty high to have it be less.

 

If the total cost is 8 init, that's a deal breaker. I can live with 5 total cost, but not 8.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

> > > > > > * Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)

> > > > > > * Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)

> > > > > > * Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)

> > > > > > * Range: 900 (no change)

> > > > > > * Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

> > > > >

> > > > > A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

> > > > >

> > > > > Here's a compromise;

> > > > > - Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.

> > > > > - Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.

> > > > > Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.

> > > > > Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think I can live with that.

> > > >

> > > > It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

> > >

> > > If Repeater (flip) will cost 4, how much will Shadow Strike cost? Also 4?

> >

> > Yes because that’s it’s current cost. The follow up shot damage is pretty high to have it be less.

>

> If the total cost is 8 init, that's a deal breaker. I can live with 5 total cost, but not 8.

 

I’d rather it be hard hitting and cost 8 (4 SS and 4 Repeater). As it stands now it should be free because auto attack does more damage at no cost and faster.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

> > > > > > > * Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)

> > > > > > > * Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)

> > > > > > > * Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)

> > > > > > > * Range: 900 (no change)

> > > > > > > * Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here's a compromise;

> > > > > > - Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.

> > > > > > - Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.

> > > > > > Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.

> > > > > > Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think I can live with that.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

> > > >

> > > > If Repeater (flip) will cost 4, how much will Shadow Strike cost? Also 4?

> > >

> > > Yes because that’s it’s current cost. The follow up shot damage is pretty high to have it be less.

> >

> > If the total cost is 8 init, that's a deal breaker. I can live with 5 total cost, but not 8.

>

> I’d rather it be hard hitting and cost 8 (4 SS and 4 Repeater). As it stands now it should be free because **auto attack does more damage at no cost and faster**.

 

That was already a given from the very beginning. That is why I said as a compromise leave Repeater alone and create a new skill Rapid Shot, the cost should be 3/2.

 

Repeater is a horrible skill and forcing it into Shadow Strike will pose more problem than actually creating an improvement.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > > > > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > > > > My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

> > > > > > > > * Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)

> > > > > > > > * Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)

> > > > > > > > * Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)

> > > > > > > > * Range: 900 (no change)

> > > > > > > > * Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here's a compromise;

> > > > > > > - Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.

> > > > > > > - Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.

> > > > > > > Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.

> > > > > > > Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think I can live with that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

> > > > >

> > > > > If Repeater (flip) will cost 4, how much will Shadow Strike cost? Also 4?

> > > >

> > > > Yes because that’s it’s current cost. The follow up shot damage is pretty high to have it be less.

> > >

> > > If the total cost is 8 init, that's a deal breaker. I can live with 5 total cost, but not 8.

> >

> > I’d rather it be hard hitting and cost 8 (4 SS and 4 Repeater). As it stands now it should be free because **auto attack does more damage at no cost and faster**.

>

> That was already a given from the very beginning. That is why I said as a compromise leave Repeater alone and create a new skill Rapid Shot, the cost should be 3/2.

>

> Repeater is a horrible skill and forcing it into Shadow Strike will pose more problem than actually creating an improvement.

 

Yes we are on the same page. Old Repeater is basically a bad skill to make people equip an offhand. Why Anet didn’t just make a new flip skill is beyond me. Because that is what we are effectively talking about in terms of what would need to change to make the numbers work.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> Why Anet didn’t just make a new flip skill is beyond me.

 

I think you already know the answer.

 

It's not even like SStrike needed anything, anyways. There are many other skills which could have and should have taken priority for changes and additions to promote diversity or mixed damage, even a few within P/D.

 

Adding filler in the form of no-offhand one-handed skills should never have been seen as a positive in the first place. The skills are intentionally bad both design-wise and numerically.

[Turk.5460]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

 

> Adding filler in the form of **no-offhand one-handed skills** should never have been seen as a positive in the first place. The skills are intentionally bad both design-wise and numerically.

 

This. Was. Not. The. Point. Of. The. Change. Please. Stop. Focusing. On. This.

 

Talk about P/D flip skill. There is literally *zero use or logic* in you continuing to complain about a no-offhand attack. It is merely a byproduct of the change to the P/D attack, you know this.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > Adding filler in the form of **no-offhand one-handed skills** should never have been seen as a positive in the first place. The skills are intentionally bad both design-wise and numerically.

>

> This. Was. Not. The. Point. Of. The. Change. Please. Stop. Focusing. On. This.

>

> Talk about P/D flip skill. There is literally *zero use or logic* in you continuing to complain about a no-offhand attack. It is merely a byproduct of the change to the P/D attack, you know this.

 

I used the word *filler* to mean filler between Sstrike and Repeater lol.

Per initiative, it's all loss. People seem to forget it costs the same as Unload/CnD with a slower cast time than both.

As demonstrated even MH Pistol AA is a contender.