maddoctor.2738 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @bOTEB.1573 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > Now that Scourge appears to be the top dps in Raids, it's even more certain that they'll get damage nerfs. I mean, Anet balances based on Raids right? > > To me it appears that scourge has top dps vs a golem, but not raids? There is a difference! > > Also, condi weaver is 2nd, by 0.5k dps difference. Do you think we should nerf the weaver too? > > Your logic is flawed. To answer your question, yes I think they should nerf every single profession that does above ~35k dps and maybe even 35k is too high of a limit. That PVE/Raid thing aside, an argument I've seen more than enough by Scourge players is "Scourge is only good in pvp so please don't nerf it", but now that's proven to be false, since they are in fact top tier in damage too. Where is Weaver in PVP atm because I don't see any, probably dead. Weaver is only good in PVE (and against a golem too), so nerfing the damage of the condi weaver to make them weaker in PVE while buffing their other aspects to be better in PVP is a very logical solution. Scourge is build for DPS in both PVP and PVE and apparently too strong on both parts of the game. Judging by past patches, a nerf is imminent. I expect lots of nerfs to come soon, and not only on Scourge but many others too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hex.2579 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Exciton.8942 said: > There is already animations on the scourge and the shades. > However, those F skills are still instant and some are very powerful so it is still incredibly hard to avoid. So currently the only reliable way to avoid scourge damage is to stay in distance most of the time. > Unless they bring in cast time on F2-5, then we can talk about reactionary play. But that would definitely be considered a nerf in my book. i'd like a different color for f2-f5 too. cuz right now it's even hard for the caster to know which skill is already activated without looking at the cd. you have to stay > 180 range from the sand shades. cuz they still do damage if you're within their radius. so Anet doesn't give melee players much of a choice here. lol. if a scourge decides to only use one sand shade, that one will have 300 radius. if they place sand shades locations well, they almost have the node cuz no matter where you stand in, you'll receive a lot of damage, maybe not from this sand shade, but from the other. and now that they have a sand swell that acts like a mesmer portal (although i believe they already nerfed the distance in which we could travel), targeting any range player couldn't be easier. i do expect nerfs coming. cuz right now i don't see the point of sPvP cuz the condi bomb is crazy. you're going in and like which team has a better scourge will come out winning. since reaper shroud reduces a lot of incoming damage and adds another pool of health. now it replaces with short barriers, and to activate any of f2-f5, it uses quite a bit of life force too, which in turn make them glass cannon. if they don't use sand swell, they'll be as slow and weak as ever than before, very vulnerable against power damage. but i'd doubt it since not a lot run power these days. although scourge is very condi oriented, i hope power scourge works. i still need to test it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evil.1580 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @bOTEB.1573 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > Now that Scourge appears to be the top dps in Raids, it's even more certain that they'll get damage nerfs. I mean, Anet balances based on Raids right? > > > > To me it appears that scourge has top dps vs a golem, but not raids? There is a difference! > > > > Also, condi weaver is 2nd, by 0.5k dps difference. Do you think we should nerf the weaver too? > > > > Your logic is flawed. > > To answer your question, yes I think they should nerf every single profession that does above ~35k dps and maybe even 35k is too high of a limit. > > That PVE/Raid thing aside, an argument I've seen more than enough by Scourge players is "Scourge is only good in pvp so please don't nerf it", but now that's proven to be false, since they are in fact top tier in damage too. > Where is Weaver in PVP atm because I don't see any, probably dead. Weaver is only good in PVE (and against a golem too), so nerfing the damage of the condi weaver to make them weaker in PVE while buffing their other aspects to be better in PVP is a very logical solution. > Scourge is build for DPS in both PVP and PVE and apparently too strong on both parts of the game. Judging by past patches, a nerf is imminent. > > I expect lots of nerfs to come soon, and not only on Scourge but many others too How exactly nerfing the dmg of the weaver to make them weak in PvE will make people play them in PvP? The most reasonable build of the weaver vs skilled opponents is water+something (imo arcana). How exactly nerfing his dmg (introduced on static golem) will make people play them, when they are even forced to take water just to survive the condi storm? What other aspects of the weaver do we need a buff? Elaborate, please. Also, ask yourself few questions. Why we have weaver? Because we need a DPS elite spec? Will nerfing the dmg of the weaver make ele play it in PvP? No, right? Nerfing an elite spec that no one plays in PVP because it sucks (the moment you find that the enemy is not actually a GOLEM) is always... ..."A VERY LOGICAL SOLUTION" P.S Golems are not PvP foes, nor raid bosses. Sure you can see the basics there but are far from the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom.8976 Posted October 5, 2017 Author Share Posted October 5, 2017 Guys this thread has gone crazy about nerfs and buffs, i'm not talking about either of those things i'm just talking about adding a telegraph to the shade skills so we can actually see what to dodge, maybe add a small cast time to some of the more damaging skills like F2 and F5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Tom.8976 said: > Guys this thread has gone crazy about nerfs and buffs, i'm not talking about either of those things i'm just talking about adding a telegraph to the shade skills so we can actually see what to dodge, maybe add a small cast time to some of the more damaging skills like F2 and F5. cast time is a HORRIBLE idea on scourge skills... the moment you put down a shade any half decent player already dodges teleport's jumps dashes out of it a second later...... you put Cast time on the Scourge skills and they barely Ever gonna hit anyone with a brain ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurrado.2346 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Scourge can be annoying, alone they are not bad, but like any class when you stack them it becomes a bit more brutal unless you have a better team composition that counters them. The solution to nerfing scourge would have to include some serious buffs to compensate for its pathetically low sustain and poor mobility. The barrier mechanic is just plain weak in spvp with its extremely low uptime. Other options could include buffing core necromancer traits in order to make the class competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Hex.2579 said: > i'd like a different color for f2-f5 too. cuz right now it's even hard for the caster to know which skill is already activated without looking at the cd. F5 causes the scourge's character model to turn black when it is active. F4 causes giant black skeletons to shoot out of the shades. F2 and F3 are largely indistinguishable, but those two are the "throwaway" F skills that are typically used just to set off Shade autos. I would like to see Sand Shades color coded by team, because right now if there is a scourge on both teams is can get difficult to tell which shade is on your team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholy Pillager.3791 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Scourge plus support bunker(s) combo is a serious pain to deal with everywhere but Foefire. All of that projectile hate pretty much negates the one real viable way to kill Scourge in a team fight, and the Scourge in turn makes it impossible for the other team to contest the node. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenith.7301 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Zenith.7301 said: > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amityel.5324 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. > > Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? do you know how small they already are? :D 180 radius is nothing.....if you want to nerf something this isnt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Amityel.5324 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > > > > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > > > > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. > > > > Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? > > do you know how small they already are? :D 180 radius is nothing.....if you want to nerf something this isnt it Well if something covers an entire point there are two ways to "fix it", increase the size of the point, or decrease the size of what's covering it. They both have their pros and cons and need to be evaluated to find the best solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Amityel.5324 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > > > > > > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > > > > > > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. > > > > > > Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? > > > > do you know how small they already are? :D 180 radius is nothing.....if you want to nerf something this isnt it > > Well if something covers an entire point there are two ways to "fix it", increase the size of the point, or decrease the size of what's covering it. They both have their pros and cons and need to be evaluated to find the best solution. You act like Shades are the only AoE that can cover a point. Wells, Marks, Traps, Tempest Overloads, Symbols, Proton Forge cleave, all manner of fields can all cover a point. Understanding when to be on a point and when to not be on a point is a huge part of the game. High level PvP would be much more stagnant with large circles because of how easy holding them would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hana.8143 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 As said elsewhere, when you engage a scourge and melt because you have immediatly lots of torment / burning, it is a problem. Even if you see it coming, it still have access to quick skills that can apply too much condi in no time. And in PvP or WvW, it’s too strong. In 1v1, if you’re a melee class you have little chance to win if he stays in his 20sec aoe. So no, it needs nerf. And btw, I’ve made a post on the old forum directly after the pvp/wvw beta for elite specs, about how powerfull the scourge is. Every necro went rampage and cried for no nerf, they said the scourge wasn’t broken. Now maybe people see what makes the scourge strong enough to be nerf ? Basically press 2 buttons and your opponent lose half of his hp in 4sec. In a 1v1 it can be avoided by running away (litteraly the only solution if you play melee). But in a large fight (with even more scourges and less options, cause you need to use breakstun for other classes too) you can’t read or react to that kind of burst. Edit: Let’s talk about scourges in PvE, have you seen that video of 10 scourges doing a raid on their own ? How can anet let a single elite spec being self sufficient and clean a wing in a relativly good time. Take 10 dps weaver ? Wipe Take 10 renegade ? Wipe Even 10 firebrand or whatever class. The barrier is still too strong (so little nerf at the release) I wish scourges understand that they don’t need that much barrier, Weaver are the cool kids, with less than 500 barrier on few skill with 10 to 20sec cd and can’t share it. I don’t say they should nerf the barrier and prevent it to be shared, no no no, it’s juste too strong atm, spam f1 f3 f5 (self one) and heal. And you survive and grant barrier for people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Amityel.5324 said: > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > > > > > > > > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > > > > > > > > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. > > > > > > > > Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? > > > > > > do you know how small they already are? :D 180 radius is nothing.....if you want to nerf something this isnt it > > > > Well if something covers an entire point there are two ways to "fix it", increase the size of the point, or decrease the size of what's covering it. They both have their pros and cons and need to be evaluated to find the best solution. > > You act like Shades are the only AoE that can cover a point. Wells, Marks, Traps, Tempest Overloads, Symbols, Proton Forge cleave, all manner of fields can all cover a point. Understanding when to be on a point and when to not be on a point is a huge part of the game. High level PvP would be much more stagnant with large circles because of how easy holding them would be. Manifest Sand Shade lasts 20 seconds and covers the entire point, it has 3 charges and the count recharge is 15 seconds, this means you can have a shade on a point permanently. Every other field can be easily ignored, get off the point and wait for it to "finish" then go back on. With shades you cannot do that because they last literally forever and their skills are on-demand. It's like using Meteor Shower and telling your meteors to stop dropping when enemies move away, and resume when they re-enter the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elie Etherion.1725 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 What about make the shades killable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > @Crinn.7864 said: > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > @Amityel.5324 said: > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > > > > > > > > > > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. > > > > > > > > > > Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? > > > > > > > > do you know how small they already are? :D 180 radius is nothing.....if you want to nerf something this isnt it > > > > > > Well if something covers an entire point there are two ways to "fix it", increase the size of the point, or decrease the size of what's covering it. They both have their pros and cons and need to be evaluated to find the best solution. > > > > You act like Shades are the only AoE that can cover a point. Wells, Marks, Traps, Tempest Overloads, Symbols, Proton Forge cleave, all manner of fields can all cover a point. Understanding when to be on a point and when to not be on a point is a huge part of the game. High level PvP would be much more stagnant with large circles because of how easy holding them would be. > > Manifest Sand Shade lasts 20 seconds and covers the entire point, it has 3 charges and the count recharge is 15 seconds, this means you can have a shade on a point permanently. Every other field can be easily ignored, get off the point and wait for it to "finish" then go back on. With shades you cannot do that because they last literally forever and their skills are on-demand. It's like using Meteor Shower and telling your meteors to stop dropping when enemies move away, and resume when they re-enter the range. You could target the scourge directly. Also most meta melee classes have the blocks/evades/blinds to operate within a shade for moderate timespans. Moreover Shade autos only apply 1 stack of torment and 1 stack of Dhuumfire natively which is easily survivable. (you get a extra stack of torment if you are in a overlap between the shade and the scourge) The "zomg huuge condi bomb" that people whine about is usually caused by either the scourge landing Feast of Corruption on top of the Shade autos, or people standing in Ghastly Breach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Crinn.7864 said: > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > @Amityel.5324 said: > > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? > > > > > > > > > > do you know how small they already are? :D 180 radius is nothing.....if you want to nerf something this isnt it > > > > > > > > Well if something covers an entire point there are two ways to "fix it", increase the size of the point, or decrease the size of what's covering it. They both have their pros and cons and need to be evaluated to find the best solution. > > > > > > You act like Shades are the only AoE that can cover a point. Wells, Marks, Traps, Tempest Overloads, Symbols, Proton Forge cleave, all manner of fields can all cover a point. Understanding when to be on a point and when to not be on a point is a huge part of the game. High level PvP would be much more stagnant with large circles because of how easy holding them would be. > > > > Manifest Sand Shade lasts 20 seconds and covers the entire point, it has 3 charges and the count recharge is 15 seconds, this means you can have a shade on a point permanently. Every other field can be easily ignored, get off the point and wait for it to "finish" then go back on. With shades you cannot do that because they last literally forever and their skills are on-demand. It's like using Meteor Shower and telling your meteors to stop dropping when enemies move away, and resume when they re-enter the range. > > You could target the scourge directly. Also most meta melee classes have the blocks/evades/blinds to operate within a shade for moderate timespans. Moreover Shade autos only apply 1 stack of torment and 1 stack of Dhuumfire natively which is easily survivable. (you get a extra stack of torment if you are in a overlap between the shade and the scourge) > The "zomg huuge condi bomb" that people whine about is usually caused by either the scourge landing Feast of Corruption on top of the Shade autos, or people standing in Ghastly Breach. or they running a build that is all about boon spam.... that all gets turned into 325461 condi and then they are surprised on the HUGE condi burst/spam they getting lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Crinn.7864 said: > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > @Crinn.7864 said: > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > @Amityel.5324 said: > > > > > > @maddoctor.2738 said: > > > > > > > @Zenith.7301 said: > > > > > > > All this talk about nerf when what needs fixing is the node sizes. Increase the circles, and suddenly you can't cover them up in shades. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This has been the plague of conquest since day 1, circles too small making aoe skills stupidly effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can nerf scourge but their place will be taken by the next best aoe damage spec. > > > > > > > > > > > > Why not reduce the size of the shades instead? > > > > > > > > > > do you know how small they already are? :D 180 radius is nothing.....if you want to nerf something this isnt it > > > > > > > > Well if something covers an entire point there are two ways to "fix it", increase the size of the point, or decrease the size of what's covering it. They both have their pros and cons and need to be evaluated to find the best solution. > > > > > > You act like Shades are the only AoE that can cover a point. Wells, Marks, Traps, Tempest Overloads, Symbols, Proton Forge cleave, all manner of fields can all cover a point. Understanding when to be on a point and when to not be on a point is a huge part of the game. High level PvP would be much more stagnant with large circles because of how easy holding them would be. > > > > Manifest Sand Shade lasts 20 seconds and covers the entire point, it has 3 charges and the count recharge is 15 seconds, this means you can have a shade on a point permanently. Every other field can be easily ignored, get off the point and wait for it to "finish" then go back on. With shades you cannot do that because they last literally forever and their skills are on-demand. It's like using Meteor Shower and telling your meteors to stop dropping when enemies move away, and resume when they re-enter the range. > > You could target the scourge directly. Also most meta melee classes have the blocks/evades/blinds to operate within a shade for moderate timespans. Moreover Shade autos only apply 1 stack of torment and 1 stack of Dhuumfire natively which is easily survivable. (you get a extra stack of torment if you are in a overlap between the shade and the scourge) > The "zomg huuge condi bomb" that people whine about is usually caused by either the scourge landing Feast of Corruption on top of the Shade autos, or people standing in Ghastly Breach. The shades are a permanent aoe that covers an entire point, no other aoe in the game can do that. Every single aoe skill in the game has a limited duration and a high cooldown afterwards, only the shades can be kept on forever. Most meta classes have the blocks/evades/blinds to operate inside an aoe, the problem is, most other aoes will disappear during your block/evade/blind duration while the shades will still be there once you run out of defensive skills. See those traps? Distort and casually walk through them, or use Facet of Light, or Endure Pain or whatever, once you are done, no more traps. The shades will still be there once your skills are back on cooldown, you can't kill them, can't push them away, can't block/evade/invuln them like traps to force them into cooldown. And it's not like the Necromancer only has the Shades. They have weapon and utility skills too obviously but this was all about how the shades compare to the other aoe skills in the game (win against all of them in all situations) As for people "standing" in Ghastly Breach, fear makes it very easy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknicrofia.2604 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 Increasing the sides of the nodes still doesn't address the fact that scourges make downstates (from both teams) an absolute shitfest. I've pretty much stopped bothering trying to res or melee cleave when there are enemy scourges near. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPuppy.8970 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @"Elie Etherion.1725" said: > What about make the shades killable? Or melt with water fields Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Alim.4176 Posted October 6, 2017 Share Posted October 6, 2017 > @Darknicrofia.2604 said: > Increasing the sides of the nodes still doesn't address the fact that scourges make downstates (from both teams) an absolute shitfest. I've pretty much stopped bothering trying to res or melee cleave when there are enemy scourges near. I agree with this. Scourges pretty much make reviving teammates. A sure suicidal task for most classes. At this point what is even the point of downstate in this game with scourges around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ttyl.6021 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 Remove cripple from shade and punishment skills and increase cooldown on F2. Then to wait to see if further nerfs needed, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukuni.8745 Posted October 7, 2017 Share Posted October 7, 2017 > @Darknicrofia.2604 said: > Increasing the sides of the nodes still doesn't address the fact that scourges make downstates (from both teams) an absolute shitfest. I've pretty much stopped bothering trying to res or melee cleave when there are enemy scourges near. I tryed to res with engi using toss elixir r and gyro res with me ressing in elixir x and auto elixir s and one necro not only stopped the res but pummleled me with enough condis to kill me befor i could ditch when my invulns ended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToPNoP.2493 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Anyone who says scourge doesn't need nerfed need to be carried by a class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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