Rennie.6750 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 The problem isn't professions, it's the fact that content is designed in such a way that people do expect you to carry them because they suck at avoiding incoming hits and boss spells aren't triggered by health values but by cooldowns. I have raided for years before GW2 and usually it's fine if 20% of the players aren't doing that well dps-wise, unless they trigger some mechanics that cause a raid wipe. With 20% of the players underperforming you're at most looking at a 30-40s longer boss fight, which means peanuts, maybe a couple more AoEs to dodge, so really, all these excuses about "meta" and "bring dps or fuck off" are complete BS. Even raids in wildstar didn't require so much fine tuning and racing for dps and they were frustratingly difficult and punishing. You were looking at ~50/100 tries to get some practice for the initial raid 40 content to get a good feeling on the mechanics, and we were certainly not that much concerned about who's doing 20% less dps, as long as you were low on salt and high on resilience and weren't a hindrance in terms of avoiding red areas you were welcome. I really don't understand some people's obsession for meta builds, especially given the fact that these builds are rarely optimal because they're designed in a vacuum where there are no external factors like dodges, boss specific mechanics that require different traits, or stuns/dazes or even just movement. Always take the recommended builds with a grain of salt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamazuki.6073 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 > @sorudo.9054 said: > IMO they should just close raids and rebuild it from the ground up, with this kind of exclusively no one is any better for it. No amount of changes will remove the restriction set by the leader of any given group. Raids do not have a class or specialization requirement, the requirement is set by players who wish to complete said content in the most efficient way possible. If you do not care for efficiency, then join a casual group, or start a casual group. The issue here is some who do not care about efficiency want to raid with those who do. These player set restrictions don't exist only in raids by the way, if you do fractals you'll see it there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 > @Vyriis.6258 said: > > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > > Every class can bring something to raids, but not every specialization. > > the WHOLE POINT of raiding is that you use an optimized set of skills to tackle a hard to overcome obstacle. It's not about the area being unwelcoming to your class, > > it's about you adapting to the area. > > The area isn't gonna pour you a cup of tea, and adjust it's skills to you, it's YOU who has to adapt their builds to SURVIVE in there. > > > > rough example: > > evolution > there are two snakes, one with a tough hide, the other with venemous fangs. Over time the prey in the woods become agile and nimble. The strong snake can more easily strangle his prey, while the venemous snake has trouble landing hits on agile targets. Now, is the nature at fault for creating an environment unfit for the venemous snake, or is the snake at fault for using a 'build' thats not sufficient? > > The problem with your attempt at explaining why certain builds are bad is that when prey evolves so does the predator, they don't always just die off. The venomous snake would learn to anticipate where their pray is going to move and would start landing its fangs where they need to be again. Or they would learn to lie in wait, as they do irl, and strike when the time is right. Even when skin becomes thicker and tougher they'd learn where they can and can not strike or they learn to spit their venom to produce the same effects as when they would need to bite their pray. Also falls flat when you consider if the "tough snake" is able to get a strangle hold on their pray to choke it out so too would the venomous snake be able to get a hold of it and then pierce it with its fangs. > My point was actually: do something wrong, and claiming that the environment is at fault instead of adapting yourself is just.. weird.. Sure, in nature, the venemous snake would adapt, (or it would die, if it's too stubborn). Same in this case, a player loves his built, even though it puts him at the bottom of the food chain. Instead of changing his built, he's complaining about the food chain. The food chain doesn't care about who is where, it just cuddles with the guy on top and regurgitates everything below. Same with classes and players, if you don't aim to be above the lowest creature, then the entire food chain is gonna gulp you up, you don't have to be at the top, but you need to actively persue being above the middle point. (no offense meant, it's just what it is.. real world sucks, I know) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Ashen.2907 said: > **But you cannot, and should not be able to, force other players in a group to change their playstyle to suit you.** If everyone kept to that there wouldn't be a problem :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Most raiders multi class. Deal with it if you play niche classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rennie.6750 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > > @Vyriis.6258 said: > > > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > > > Every class can bring something to raids, but not every specialization. > > > the WHOLE POINT of raiding is that you use an optimized set of skills to tackle a hard to overcome obstacle. It's not about the area being unwelcoming to your class, > > > it's about you adapting to the area. > > > The area isn't gonna pour you a cup of tea, and adjust it's skills to you, it's YOU who has to adapt their builds to SURVIVE in there. > > > > > > rough example: > > > evolution > there are two snakes, one with a tough hide, the other with venemous fangs. Over time the prey in the woods become agile and nimble. The strong snake can more easily strangle his prey, while the venemous snake has trouble landing hits on agile targets. Now, is the nature at fault for creating an environment unfit for the venemous snake, or is the snake at fault for using a 'build' thats not sufficient? > > > > The problem with your attempt at explaining why certain builds are bad is that when prey evolves so does the predator, they don't always just die off. The venomous snake would learn to anticipate where their pray is going to move and would start landing its fangs where they need to be again. Or they would learn to lie in wait, as they do irl, and strike when the time is right. Even when skin becomes thicker and tougher they'd learn where they can and can not strike or they learn to spit their venom to produce the same effects as when they would need to bite their pray. Also falls flat when you consider if the "tough snake" is able to get a strangle hold on their pray to choke it out so too would the venomous snake be able to get a hold of it and then pierce it with its fangs. > > > > My point was actually: do something wrong, and claiming that the environment is at fault instead of adapting yourself is just.. weird.. > Sure, in nature, the venemous snake would adapt, (or it would die, if it's too stubborn). > Same in this case, a player loves his built, even though it puts him at the bottom of the food chain. Instead of changing his built, he's complaining about the food chain. The food chain doesn't care about who is where, it just cuddles with the guy on top and regurgitates everything below. Same with classes and players, if you don't aim to be above the lowest creature, then the entire food chain is gonna gulp you up, you don't have to be at the top, but you need to actively persue being above the middle point. (no offense meant, it's just what it is.. real world sucks, I know) Nice fairy tale but no. If someone brings a class doing 20% less dps on benchmarks we're looking at **seconds**, not minutes, let alone hours. The efficiency argument is completely illogical. Worse: delusional. It's often brought up by people who are extremely short-sighted, self-absorbed, and who don't understand anything about maths and like convenient excuses to never blame themselves when a run fails. Of course it's not your inability to dodge! No, it's the revenant, obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchofas.8243 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 The good option is to restrict raid party to at-least 1 of each class and the last one is a free class. This adds challenge to the raid, which is the point of raid. Also, everyone's stats would be static and preset without prefix selection. technically, you have to play with 9 different classes and have a preset stats and skills to challenge the raid. Pure skills, no items and whatsoever. This in itself is exactly the challenging content everyone is looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorin Noroku.5342 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Wait... you can't raid because of renegade?!?! Renegade is currently one of the top 5 dps benchmarks, is AMAZING group support (like overhealing the retal from gors with just elite and heal in kalla), does better damage on large hitboxes.... its condi so KC is out, but thats just one fight... it has amazing break bar damage... Why can't you raid?! We had a renegade in our reset pug group and he was competing with everyone else for damage... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conncept.7638 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Manijin.3428 said: > It's a community problem. Not entirely, not so long as raids are harshly timed, gated behind a minimum of certain mechanics, and more often than not have one harsh unchanging rote to comply with their win condition. You could play excellently, perfectly, God-like; and then fail because you don't have enough DPS to beat the clock, enough CC to stop that one teamwiping attack, enough evasion, enough stability, enough of a hundred different mechanics that you can only have enough of with specific team compositions that leave entire classes out of the meta. Raids exclude and alienate by their design, not just by the awful community they attract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipion.7548 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Yamazuki.6073 said: > > @sorudo.9054 said: > > IMO they should just close raids and rebuild it from the ground up, with this kind of exclusively no one is any better for it. > > No amount of changes will remove the restriction set by the leader of any given group. Raids do not have a class or specialization requirement, the requirement is set by players who wish to complete said content in the most efficient way possible. If you do not care for efficiency, then join a casual group, or start a casual group. The issue here is some who do not care about efficiency want to raid with those who do. These player set restrictions don't exist only in raids by the way, if you do fractals you'll see it there too. On WoW raid leaders have the same power and cannot be forced by blizzard to accept all classes and spec, however they accept them. Why ? Because the game is balanced and intended roles are clearly defined for each classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulter.2315 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Scipion.7548 said: > > @Ashen.2907 said: > > > Honest question, as I have not played WoW in years, can someone show up on a thief expecting to fulfill the role of healer for a group in WoW raids? > > No but you know this when you create a rogue. Blizzard warns you that you can only be a DPS and nothing else. But when you create a priest, a paladin, a shaman, a druid or a monk the game clearly tells you that you can be a healer, and the game don't lie because you will never be rejected from groups as healer with any of those classes. Same for tanks and dps. **You will never be rejected if you play one of the roles that is intented for your class**. > > On the contrary, on GW2 I read on the character creation that "Guardians specialize in protective and defensive magic", so it's a kind of tanky support right ? But in game it's often very hard to be accepted as a tanky support guard (maybe less with FB spec, wait & see). Most of the time you have to go DPS. **Anet lied to me**. > So no, it's not only because of players that some role/classe combination aren't accepted, it's also because Anet did a mess. This is not true, there have been many times throughout WoW's history when certain healers would be rejected from most groups or certain tanks or dps specs would be rejected from most groups. You have a rose tinted memory or not enough of a memory of WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrubySzymek.1362 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/revenant/condi-renegade/ GW2 meta gods proclaimed Renegade as meta dps profession. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipion.7548 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Coulter.2315 said: > This is not true, there have been many times throughout WoW's history when certain healers would be rejected from most groups or certain tanks or dps specs would be rejected from most groups. You have a rose tinted memory or not enough of a memory of WoW. Never said that this never happened in the past. But personnaly I don't play on illegal private server or use a time machine to play WoW BC. Do you ? I compare today GW2 to today WoW. Because this is those 2 mmorpg I play now. I don't play 2005 wow. And since Cataclysm xpac (2010, the game as old as GW2 now), all classes (and all tank & heal specs and at least one dps spec per class) are accepted in raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coulter.2315 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Scipion.7548 said: > > @Coulter.2315 said: > > > This is not true, there have been many times throughout WoW's history when certain healers would be rejected from most groups or certain tanks or dps specs would be rejected from most groups. You have a rose tinted memory or not enough of a memory of WoW. > > Never said that this never happened in the past. But personnaly I don't play on illegal private server or use a time machine to play WoW BC. Do you ? > I compare today GW2 to today WoW. Because this is those 2 mmorpg I play now. I don't play 2005 wow. And since Cataclysm xpac (2010, the game as old as GW2 now), all classes (and all tank & heal specs and at least one dps spec per class) are accepted in raids. > There is a spec available to all classes in GW2 that is accepted in raids, just not the one you might want to play. I played WoW in Cata and there were certainly specs people would not take in raid comps, you wouldn't get to play cat dps druid for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sorin Noroku.5342 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/revenant/condi-renegade/ > > GW2 meta gods proclaimed Renegade as meta dps profession. Enjoy. =P confirms my previous statement of renegade being a top dps class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenagin.3529 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Kheldorn.5123 said: > https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/revenant/condi-renegade/ > > GW2 meta gods proclaimed Renegade as meta dps profession. Enjoy. Was going to say the same. Might cost a couple of days/weeks before people accept you but Renegade is a good raid class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abakk.9176 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 It is totally and completely a community thing that people tend to turn a social game into some weird contest for power and profit. It's like playing Monopoly and kicking your granny from the table for playing too slow. I actually had a brother in law that was just like that. It is no more and no less a nasty habit of Human beeings to claw their way upwards over the backs of 'the weak'. It is not going away soon and the only way to get ahead as 'the weak' is to seek eachother out and create our own community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaxTheGreatOne.9472 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Your class, Revenant, is not neccesarily holding you back... It's players who keep holding on to non accurate, wrongly interpreted information, but mostly incomplete guides, mostly due to the fact the guides and their guilds working to upgrade guides and testing all new builds do have to take their time... Also there is a difference between guilds providing info on the fastest builds versus providing info on all viable builds... It also significantly reduces Time in testing and writing the guides..... And people without courage, insight or understanding refuse people who chose to try and be creative with builds. As long as people make builds and prove those builds can deliver enough sustained and burst damage there should be no reasons to be elitist, uncreative and restrictive.... This does create problems with pugs cause you'll likely not be checking dps tests from each player before pug raids... Guides only focussing about speed clears tend to leave out dozens of builds providing more sustain and survivability while retaining enough damage potential to finish raids in normal mode, while proving added functionality, maybe even lowering the difficulty treshold. The lack of understanding has driven a wedge between the fanatical casuals and the wannabee elitists...And this is the main cause of the problems you encouter. So in the end: You could have a build perfectly suited to raid... But noone shows themselves capable of accepting this due to themselves and or others not wanting, able, or interested to verify your build. Which only shows It's not maximum DPS... Nothing else... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayakaru.6583 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Rennie.6750 said: > > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > > > @Vyriis.6258 said: > > > > @Ayakaru.6583 said: > > > > Every class can bring something to raids, but not every specialization. > > > > the WHOLE POINT of raiding is that you use an optimized set of skills to tackle a hard to overcome obstacle. It's not about the area being unwelcoming to your class, > > > > it's about you adapting to the area. > > > > The area isn't gonna pour you a cup of tea, and adjust it's skills to you, it's YOU who has to adapt their builds to SURVIVE in there. > > > > > > > > rough example: > > > > evolution > there are two snakes, one with a tough hide, the other with venemous fangs. Over time the prey in the woods become agile and nimble. The strong snake can more easily strangle his prey, while the venemous snake has trouble landing hits on agile targets. Now, is the nature at fault for creating an environment unfit for the venemous snake, or is the snake at fault for using a 'build' thats not sufficient? > > > > > > The problem with your attempt at explaining why certain builds are bad is that when prey evolves so does the predator, they don't always just die off. The venomous snake would learn to anticipate where their pray is going to move and would start landing its fangs where they need to be again. Or they would learn to lie in wait, as they do irl, and strike when the time is right. Even when skin becomes thicker and tougher they'd learn where they can and can not strike or they learn to spit their venom to produce the same effects as when they would need to bite their pray. Also falls flat when you consider if the "tough snake" is able to get a strangle hold on their pray to choke it out so too would the venomous snake be able to get a hold of it and then pierce it with its fangs. > > > > > > > My point was actually: do something wrong, and claiming that the environment is at fault instead of adapting yourself is just.. weird.. > > Sure, in nature, the venemous snake would adapt, (or it would die, if it's too stubborn). > > Same in this case, a player loves his built, even though it puts him at the bottom of the food chain. Instead of changing his built, he's complaining about the food chain. The food chain doesn't care about who is where, it just cuddles with the guy on top and regurgitates everything below. Same with classes and players, if you don't aim to be above the lowest creature, then the entire food chain is gonna gulp you up, you don't have to be at the top, but you need to actively persue being above the middle point. (no offense meant, it's just what it is.. real world sucks, I know) > > Nice fairy tale but no. If someone brings a class doing 20% less dps on benchmarks we're looking at **seconds**, not minutes, let alone hours. The efficiency argument is completely illogical. Worse: delusional. It's often brought up by people who are extremely short-sighted, self-absorbed, and who don't understand anything about maths and like convenient excuses to never blame themselves when a run fails. Of course it's not your inability to dodge! No, it's the revenant, obviously. nice fairy dodge, but no. I agree wholefully, that understanding the mechanics is the most important thing. HOWEVER, you cannot deny that a warrior with 2 maces cannot compete with a weaver of firebrand in terms of dps, nor is a druid. When you bring 20% less than the benchmark, then thats fine. Really, thats fine. No one in pugs is gonna expect everyone to run a qtfy perfection. HOWEVER, when you ae a beginning player, and combine that with a low efficiency build we might be looking at >50% drop. THAT is significant. But still okay, if it's one guy, we can carry them. no problem. My point remains that, if you don't adjust to be near the 20% below benchmarks, but stay below the 50%, then you only have yourself to blame, you can't blame the playerbase or the bosses for being too difficult. However, take my argument or leave, because the tone of your reply is not "I am open to discussion" but "I have made up my mind and I am right" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beorn Raukar.4328 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Bahamoth.8053 said: > hey guys I know this has been probably brought up a few times. When POF came out I was excited that now I would have a chance joining Raid groups as RENEGADE. But that was an epic fail. I still cannot join a single group or even the ones from my guild. It is frustrating not to be able to join a single raid with my class. It is even crazy to be at the RAID Area and not seeing a single revenant. That place is filled with mesmers and warriors etc. Anybody feeling with me ? :) https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/revenant/condi-renegade/ there you go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellisande.5218 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Shirlias.8104 said: > You can join as revenant ( Ventari during some fights, and i guess also other builds ). > You probably mean "i can't join raid with a build which is not needed but i would like to play". That is the same thing as not being able to raid. What is the point of playing if you can't have fun while playing? Personally I find that raids require too much metagaming and being turned into a mindless cog to be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trise.2865 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Yeah... sounds like you need better friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Dos Cavalos.6132 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 If you really want to do raids you will learn to play a more appropriate class like me and many raiders did when raids first came out. But with that being said, every class in the game can do raids atm, every class has a build that can be used in raids. Renegade can do 37k dps and give party buffs at the same time, theres no reason for a squad to not take renegade in raids. Every class in the game has a build that can do more than 33k dps, that is enough to fill a dps slot in raid. So its not the game fault ppl don't take renegades or thief, some players just have no idea whats going on :P https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/ Every class in the game is viable for raids and fractals, you just need to use a viable build. if u use a 2k toughness thief with 3k dps don't expect to be carried. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldirtbeard.9834 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Bahamoth.8053 said: > hey guys I know this has been probably brought up a few times. When POF came out I was excited that now I would have a chance joining Raid groups as RENEGADE. But that was an epic fail. I still cannot join a single group or even the ones from my guild. It is frustrating not to be able to join a single raid with my class. It is even crazy to be at the RAID Area and not seeing a single revenant. That place is filled with mesmers and warriors etc. Anybody feeling with me ? :) Welcome to GW2, where they literally have 3 people that occasionally do balance with DPS ranges from 15,000 to 50,000, and a raiding community that's so discriminatory that they make raiding a toxic playground for the chosen few. It's a shame, I've been warning people about this BS for a long time now on Massively OP. Play this game for the Open World content, keep away from toxic people, don't bother trying to reason with high end PVEers they will eat you alive, or act like the Awakened followers of Palawa Joko. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhanoa.3960 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Djinn.9245 said: > > @Danikat.8537 said: > > This isn't a problem with the game itself > > It is completely a fault of the game/Anet that certain classes don't have builds that are generally desired by raid groups. The COMMUNITY is just as responsible for creating this toxic environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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