Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > 344 heal per second * 10 seconds = 3440 health per 10 seconds > 344 heal per second * 20 second = 6880 health per 20 seconds > > now compare it with the other heals in game, tell me how "good" healing signet really is > > troll unguent traited: 20 seconds cooldown = 8496 health per 20 seconds > healing turret: 15 second cooldown (if picked up) 5040 health per 15 seconds = 6720 per 20 + 2 condi cleansed + water field) > false oasis 25 sercond cooldown 8100 health =6480 health per 20 seconds + vigor + mirage mirror > > think it's starting to look clear allready, healing signet is not the issue it's actual total health/time is balanced with other heals > > i mean lol https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet > > - -8% > - +5% > - -10% > You forgot small detail ,you never need to cast it, you never being interrupted on cast (that u never use) ,you still do your stuff as doing damage or kiting blocking and whatnot and getting healed .Warrior have the most absurd healing skill in the game 12s cd 6500 heal -3 condis and gives 10% more damage from strenght trait (obsly traited with it) but who use it ... ? If you think healing signet isnt really good,thats just your opinion but all good/best warriors never swap it out ,think about it ;) I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > 344 heal per second * 10 seconds = 3440 health per 10 seconds > > 344 heal per second * 20 second = 6880 health per 20 seconds > > > > now compare it with the other heals in game, tell me how "good" healing signet really is > > > > troll unguent traited: 20 seconds cooldown = 8496 health per 20 seconds > > healing turret: 15 second cooldown (if picked up) 5040 health per 15 seconds = 6720 per 20 + 2 condi cleansed + water field) > > false oasis 25 sercond cooldown 8100 health =6480 health per 20 seconds + vigor + mirage mirror > > > > think it's starting to look clear allready, healing signet is not the issue it's actual total health/time is balanced with other heals > > > > i mean lol https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet > > > > - -8% > > - +5% > > - -10% > > > You forgot small detail ,you never need to cast it, you never being interrupted on cast (that u never use) ,you still do your stuff as doing damage or kiting blocking and whatnot and getting healed .Warrior have the most absurd healing skill in the game 12s cd 6500 heal -3 condis and gives 10% more damage from strenght trait (obsly traited with it) but who use it ... ? If you think healing signet isnt really good,thats just your opinion but all good/best warriors never swap it out ,think about it ;) > I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: > you forget 1 thing aswell while other classes can recover from a burst, warriors are less able to. they need to disengage, to tick back up. if you are on a side node (where you should be, since you area duelist) and you have to fall back every 10-15 seconds then, what is the point in playing a duelist? node is till not yours. nodes win matches, not kills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 I find it amazing how people still believe that something as a baseline Fast Hands would EVER be considered. The entire game is balanced and designed around weapon swaps of 10 seconds on all classes. Sigils were specifically changed with 9 second internal cool downs in mind as to prevent any possible unintended interactions with faster than 10 second weapon swaps now and in the future (most notably affecting warriors, engineers and elementalists). Making FH baseline would immediately create: - an issue which now ALWAYS needs to be considered or in some way backed up for warriors baseline 5 second weapon swap with any interaction of traits, utilities, weapons, etc. versus only when Discipline is traited - immediate power creep from gaining an additional baseline ability as well as a new trait in discipline - more access to weapon abilities which is of special concern when running an elite specialization since now only 1 trait line is locked instead of 2 - makes a class specific rune completely useless for its class (granted Rune of the Warrior isn't top tier now, but with baseline FH it becomes completely useless for warriors) The chances of having baseline FH implemented is infinitely smaller than having the trait removed from the game (which too would create greater balance between trait lines, even if most warriors would not like this change). It's amazing to me to see people who still do not realize this and even believe that FH baseline would ever be a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > 344 heal per second * 10 seconds = 3440 health per 10 seconds > > 344 heal per second * 20 second = 6880 health per 20 seconds > > > > now compare it with the other heals in game, tell me how "good" healing signet really is > > > > troll unguent traited: 20 seconds cooldown = 8496 health per 20 seconds > > healing turret: 15 second cooldown (if picked up) 5040 health per 15 seconds = 6720 per 20 + 2 condi cleansed + water field) > > false oasis 25 sercond cooldown 8100 health =6480 health per 20 seconds + vigor + mirage mirror > > > > think it's starting to look clear allready, healing signet is not the issue it's actual total health/time is balanced with other heals > > > > i mean lol https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet > > > > - -8% > > - +5% > > - -10% > > > You forgot small detail ,you never need to cast it, you never being interrupted on cast (that u never use) ,you still do your stuff as doing damage or kiting blocking and whatnot and getting healed .Warrior have the most absurd healing skill in the game 12s cd 6500 heal -3 condis and gives 10% more damage from strenght trait (obsly traited with it) but who use it ... ? If you think healing signet isnt really good,thats just your opinion but all good/best warriors never swap it out ,think about it ;) > I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: > There is actually a potentially more cancer heal than healing signet actually. Nobody has caught up on it yet and nobody talks about it because they have no idea how to use it. The resistance is nice (tarcis has done this before, using the heal to do something vs. blind spam if there is no burst damage around) vs. people who don't do much damage But since there's so much damage in the game, I don't like to use signet much anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: Its not about 'cancerous' its about casting it and possible interrupt that cause your death shortly after and Id prefer to never use signet unless u going to run awayyyyyyy and really need resistance . Anyway gl > @"melandru.3876" said: > while other classes can recover from a burst, warriors are less able to. they need to disengage, to tick back up. > if you are on a side node (where you should be, since you area duelist) and you have to fall back every 10-15 seconds then, what is the point in playing a duelist? > node is till not yours. nodes win matches, not kills I have a feeling like you dont know what you are talking about ...or I cant understand the hell you mean there ... Whatever mate ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: Like being completely ignorant and avoiding answering proper questions because of lack of profession knowledge? This "balance officer" doesn't realize how exactly impactful the change would be on warrior profession, so how he/she can speculate the impact on overal game's balance? As I wrote scheme of discussion with Obtena before: "Let's sum this up as simple as possible: You want valid reasons why make FH baseline. My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality. Your argument: not big enough reason. I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline. Your argument: powercreep. My argument: let's discuss what exactly would be overperforming, too strong, broken, etc. Your argument: I want valid reasons why make FH baseline." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > Its not about 'cancerous' its about casting it and possible interrupt that cause your death shortly after and Id prefer to never use signet unless u going to run awayyyyyyy and really need resistance . Anyway gl > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > while other classes can recover from a burst, warriors are less able to. they need to disengage, to tick back up. > > if you are on a side node (where you should be, since you area duelist) and you have to fall back every 10-15 seconds then, what is the point in playing a duelist? > > node is till not yours. nodes win matches, not kills > > I have a feeling like you dont know what you are talking about ...or I cant understand the hell you mean there ... Whatever mate ... i believe you do, you just refuse to warrior 1, uses mending. takes a 7k crit, can use mending and he is roughly at max health again, with 12 second cooldown warrior b, uses healing signet takes a 7k crit..warrior has to wait 20 seconds to be at full health again and avoid every single hit or it would extend the period ^if you fail to understand this, then it's on you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"melandru.3876" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > Its not about 'cancerous' its about casting it and possible interrupt that cause your death shortly after and Id prefer to never use signet unless u going to run awayyyyyyy and really need resistance . Anyway gl > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > while other classes can recover from a burst, warriors are less able to. they need to disengage, to tick back up. > > > if you are on a side node (where you should be, since you area duelist) and you have to fall back every 10-15 seconds then, what is the point in playing a duelist? > > > node is till not yours. nodes win matches, not kills > > > > I have a feeling like you dont know what you are talking about ...or I cant understand the hell you mean there ... Whatever mate ... > > i believe you do, you just refuse to > > warrior 1, uses mending. takes a 7k crit, can use mending and he is roughly at max health again, with 12 second cooldown > warrior b, uses healing signet takes a 7k crit..warrior has to wait 20 seconds to be at full health again and avoid every single hit or it would extend the period > > ^if you fail to understand this, then it's on you And what is your problem with that... ? Is that hard to understand warrior A can get interrupted and getting smacked without being able to heal for next 5 seconds and warrior B dont and can proceed to fight while getting passively health ? H U H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melandru.3876 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > Its not about 'cancerous' its about casting it and possible interrupt that cause your death shortly after and Id prefer to never use signet unless u going to run awayyyyyyy and really need resistance . Anyway gl > > > > @"melandru.3876" said: > > > > while other classes can recover from a burst, warriors are less able to. they need to disengage, to tick back up. > > > > if you are on a side node (where you should be, since you area duelist) and you have to fall back every 10-15 seconds then, what is the point in playing a duelist? > > > > node is till not yours. nodes win matches, not kills > > > > > > I have a feeling like you dont know what you are talking about ...or I cant understand the hell you mean there ... Whatever mate ... > > > > i believe you do, you just refuse to > > > > warrior 1, uses mending. takes a 7k crit, can use mending and he is roughly at max health again, with 12 second cooldown > > warrior b, uses healing signet takes a 7k crit..warrior has to wait 20 seconds to be at full health again and avoid every single hit or it would extend the period > > > > ^if you fail to understand this, then it's on you > And what is your problem with that... ? Is that hard to understand warrior A can get interrupted and getting smacked without being able to heal for next 5 seconds and warrior B dont and can proceed to fight while getting passively health ? H U H "can" get interrupted. if you allowed that, you allready lost the fight that aside, everyone has activation times on heals, zero complaints fight a boonbeast, more specific "refined toxins" which is capable of perma poison, see how strong a passive heal over time becomes. not like an activation heal, that can be cured whenever it needs to be activated i know i know you want all passives gone because "too stronk" the only thing relevant is net amount of health/time which healing signet is the second worst (worst is to the limit) warrior healing skill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: > > Like being completely ignorant and avoiding answering proper questions because of lack of profession knowledge? > This "balance officer" doesn't realize how exactly impactful the change would be on warrior profession, so how he/she can speculate the impact on overal game's balance? > > As I wrote scheme of discussion with Obtena before: > "Let's sum this up as simple as possible: > > You want valid reasons why make FH baseline. > My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality. > Your argument: not big enough reason. > > I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline. > Your argument: powercreep. > My argument: let's discuss what exactly would be overperforming, too strong, broken, etc. > Your argument: I want valid reasons why make FH baseline." Its not really a rocket sience if FH is given for free its would be a major buff. Warrior isnt balanced around weapon swap in mind since its not his class mechanics. Your argument is smoothhness and just really good feeling when you can swap weapon every 5s get the sweet benefits of discipline traitline. So mesmers really like reduced shatter cooldowns, thieves low cd steal and more initiative because they can spam more skills but should it be baseline because this make their gameplay comfortable? Or may be it should stay a traitline...? Memes on you if they actually make it base and nerf warrior after (but most likely they goin to ignore) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: > > > > Like being completely ignorant and avoiding answering proper questions because of lack of profession knowledge? > > This "balance officer" doesn't realize how exactly impactful the change would be on warrior profession, so how he/she can speculate the impact on overal game's balance? > > > > As I wrote scheme of discussion with Obtena before: > > "Let's sum this up as simple as possible: > > > > You want valid reasons why make FH baseline. > > My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality. > > Your argument: not big enough reason. > > > > I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline. > > Your argument: powercreep. > > My argument: let's discuss what exactly would be overperforming, too strong, broken, etc. > > Your argument: I want valid reasons why make FH baseline." > Its not really a rocket sience if FH is given for free its would be a major buff. Warrior isnt balanced around weapon swap in mind since its not his class mechanics. > Your argument is smoothhness and just really good feeling when you can swap weapon every 5s get the sweet benefits of discipline traitline. So mesmers really like reduced shatter cooldowns, thieves low cd steal and more initiative because they can spam more skills but should it be baseline because this make their gameplay comfortable? Or may be it should stay a traitline...? Memes on you if they actually make it base and nerf warrior after (but most likely they goin to ignore) Well it "buffs" STR DEF spellbreaker because you can cancel Full Counter with weapon swap VERY OFTEN (this I can't defend) if you know nobody is going to hit it and go straight to something more productive. This is important because you could bait out unblockables and dodge them, or just not be stuck in an animation no one is going to hit. To be fair it's a buff, but this can be hard to pull off though. But I don't mind nerfs before getting baseline FH because it would realistically be in a big patch (and maybe scepter mesmer, and ranger gets nerfed) anyways. I personally don't like SB. If it would be a buff to Berserker and a nerf to SB (in the least catastrophic way), I will be happy. I don't like SB, it's a lazy designed low mechanic spec tbh. Berserker has a higher skil cap with fake-outs.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: > > > > Like being completely ignorant and avoiding answering proper questions because of lack of profession knowledge? > > This "balance officer" doesn't realize how exactly impactful the change would be on warrior profession, so how he/she can speculate the impact on overal game's balance? > > > > As I wrote scheme of discussion with Obtena before: > > "Let's sum this up as simple as possible: > > > > You want valid reasons why make FH baseline. > > My argument: improved rotations, their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds, therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality. > > Your argument: not big enough reason. > > > > I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline. > > Your argument: powercreep. > > My argument: let's discuss what exactly would be overperforming, too strong, broken, etc. > > Your argument: I want valid reasons why make FH baseline." > Its not really a rocket sience if FH is given for free its would be a major buff. Warrior isnt balanced around weapon swap in mind since its not his class mechanics. > Your argument is smoothhness and just really good feeling when you can swap weapon every 5s get the sweet benefits of discipline traitline. So mesmers really like reduced shatter cooldowns, thieves low cd steal and more initiative because they can spam more skills but should it be baseline because this make their gameplay comfortable? Or may be it should stay a traitline...? Memes on you if they actually make it base and nerf warrior after (but most likely they goin to ignore) If you think that faster weapon-swap does not play big role in class mechanic (thus can be considered part of mechanic), then you probably haven't played warrior that much to be familiar with how significant and game-changing faster weapon swap is for warrior, burst usage and weapon skill usage. Not in a way that it makes warrior overpowered, but it makes warrior competetive with other professions. Otherwise, you would see much more non-Discipline warriors running around, especially in PvP/WvW. But then there is @"Obtena.7952" who claims that such strong trait/traitline should be nerfed instead only to promote way less competetive, useless and impractical builds. Such statement would make sense ONLY if Anet nerfed all builds of all professions across the game significantly to reduce powercreep. Do you think that after all those months/years, Anet is heading this direction with their balance patches? "So mesmers really like reduced shatter cooldowns, thieves low cd steal and more initiative because they can spam more skills but should it be baseline because this make their gameplay comfortable? Or may be it should stay a traitline...? Memes on you if they actually make it base and nerf warrior after (but most likely they goin to ignore)" Let's break those points: Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline. More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline. **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > Let's break those points: > Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline. > More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline. > **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.** They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar). I know difference between disciple and non-discipline builds dw,thus I said this going to make str-defense way too good without tradeoffs. By the way as Obtena told to OP ,even if he would make a poll what warrior needs FH wont be on top of demands...he didnt believe and made a thread... guess who was right? Ignorant Obtena wins! >But then there is @Obtena.7952 who claims that such strong trait/traitline should be nerfed instead only to promote way less competetive, useless and impractical builds Actually thats how things Blizzard used to solve. Some trait too strong and everyone pick it ... ? HOW DARE THIS TRAIT TO BE SO STRONG!? And nerf it so ppl 'could' pick other traits :joy: I'm out from this discussion :bleep_bloop: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > I find it amazing how people still believe that something as a baseline Fast Hands would EVER be considered. > > The entire game is balanced and designed around weapon swaps of 10 seconds on all classes. Sigils were specifically changed with 9 second internal cool downs in mind as to prevent any possible unintended interactions with faster than 10 second weapon swaps now and in the future (most notably affecting warriors, engineers and elementalists). > > Making FH baseline would immediately create: > - an issue which now ALWAYS needs to be considered or in some way backed up for warriors baseline 5 second weapon swap with any interaction of traits, utilities, weapons, etc. versus only when Discipline is traited > - immediate power creep from gaining an additional baseline ability as well as a new trait in discipline > - more access to weapon abilities which is of special concern when running an elite specialization since now only 1 trait line is locked instead of 2 > - makes a class specific rune completely useless for its class (granted Rune of the Warrior isn't top tier now, but with baseline FH it becomes completely useless for warriors) > > The chances of having baseline FH implemented is infinitely smaller than having the trait removed from the game (which too would create greater balance between trait lines, even if most warriors would not like this change). > > It's amazing to me to see people who still do not realize this and even believe that FH baseline would ever be a thing. "The entire game is balanced and designed around weapon swaps of 10 seconds on all classes. Sigils were specifically changed with 9 second internal cool downs in mind as to prevent any possible unintended interactions with faster than 10 second weapon swaps now and in the future (most notably affecting warriors, engineers and elementalists)." That is not true at all. Warrior is probably the only class that was over all those years balanced also around 5 second weapon swap. Why do you think builds that don't have Fast Hands (and whole Discipline traitline) are used way less and are less enjoyable to play, have rotations, that are less practical for adapting to combat situations? Is it because Discipline traitline is straigth overpowered OR because non-Discipline builds are just not that good to be competetive with other professions and their specs? ___ "Making FH baseline would immediately create: 1 - an issue which now ALWAYS needs to be considered or in some way backed up for warriors baseline 5 second weapon swap with any interaction of traits, utilities, weapons, etc. versus only when Discipline is traited 2 - immediate power creep from gaining an additional baseline ability as well as a new trait in discipline 3 - more access to weapon abilities which is of special concern when running an elite specialization since now only 1 trait line is locked instead of 2 4 - makes a class specific rune completely useless for its class (granted Rune of the Warrior isn't top tier now, but with baseline FH it becomes completely useless for warriors)" 1 - that is speculation and there is such nice thing called 9 second ICD, you know 2 - another speculation argument, the minor trait can be something insignificant (examples were already made), if you claim that there would be powercreep, please also add specific and precise examples of builds, trait/traitline synergies, etc; you have to realize that buffing anything is fundamentally adding powercreep into game, with such mentality nothing should be buffed ever again; I am talking about powercreep of creating builds as strong or even more broken than warrior currently has 3 - aha, so being locked in 2 traitlines is a good thing, especially for build variety? 4 - class specific rune is as useful as racial skills ;) The build I can imagine being improved the most is Strength, Defense, Spellbreaker. Will this build outperform current Strength/Discipline/Spellbreaker or Defense/Discipline/Spellbreaker? Bursts and Full Counter would have longer CD, no more condi removal on weapon swap, no more immobilize remove on using mobility skill, no more 25% speed bonus, no more damage bonus while having swiftness, no more damage bonus and adrenaline recovery on using burst skills, no more might and adrenaline gain on weapon swap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar). I know difference between disciple and non-discipline builds dw,thus I said this going to make str-defense way too good without tradeoffs. Bursts and Full Counter would have longer CD, no more condi removal on weapon swap, no more immobilize remove on using mobility skill, no more 25% speed bonus, no more damage bonus while having swiftness, no more damage bonus and adrenaline recovery on using burst skills, no more might and adrenaline gain on weapon swap. "without tradeoffs" EDIT: Also to reply to your previous reply: "Its not really a rocket sience if FH is given for free its would be a major buff." Of course, a major buff to all non-discipline builds which are used way less, that is why we propose such alternative. And on top of that, I value skill rotation smoothness and being able to adapt to situations faster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > I find it amazing how people still believe that something as a baseline Fast Hands would EVER be considered. > > The entire game is balanced and designed around weapon swaps of 10 seconds on all classes. Sigils were specifically changed with 9 second internal cool downs in mind as to prevent any possible unintended interactions with faster than 10 second weapon swaps now and in the future (most notably affecting warriors, engineers and elementalists). > > Making FH baseline would immediately create: > - an issue which now ALWAYS needs to be considered or in some way backed up for warriors baseline 5 second weapon swap with any interaction of traits, utilities, weapons, etc. versus only when Discipline is traited > - immediate power creep from gaining an additional baseline ability as well as a new trait in discipline > - more access to weapon abilities which is of special concern when running an elite specialization since now only 1 trait line is locked instead of 2 > - makes a class specific rune completely useless for its class (granted Rune of the Warrior isn't top tier now, but with baseline FH it becomes completely useless for warriors) > > The chances of having baseline FH implemented is infinitely smaller than having the trait removed from the game (which too would create greater balance between trait lines, even if most warriors would not like this change). > > It's amazing to me to see people who still do not realize this and even believe that FH baseline would ever be a thing. Bump for this. I find the best part is that people just don't realize how fundamental some of these parameters are. I mean, every class starts with the same swap baseline and FH makes an exception to that for an advantage to warriors taking a Discipline traitline ... that should tell everyone something right there. Apparently, it's really easy to be obtuse and ignoring the fact that Anet wants people to make meaningful decisions just to win an argument. Frankly, I don't get the tone of desperation in their position and it even sets up the idea that FH should be nerfed, not made baseline. /shrug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowcat.2680 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 To elaborate further on the Vital Persistence nerf example brought up by Sigmoid earlier: Anet didn't just nerf Vital Persistence. They also stripped the 10% damage modifier from a minor trait (Soul Battery) in Soul Reaping and instead put that 10% in a new major trait competing with the weakened Vital Persistence. All the minors for Soul Reaping were nerfed with that patch. The same patch brought buffs to Death Magic. Speculating about baseline FH is all well and good, but Anet's track history does not support such a change. If they decide Disc kills build diversity, then expect heavy nerfs to Disc (light nerfs are a rarity). They'd probably buff an underused traitline like Arms at the same time to try and further lessen dependence on Disc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > I find it amazing how people still believe that something as a baseline Fast Hands would EVER be considered. > > > > The entire game is balanced and designed around weapon swaps of 10 seconds on all classes. Sigils were specifically changed with 9 second internal cool downs in mind as to prevent any possible unintended interactions with faster than 10 second weapon swaps now and in the future (most notably affecting warriors, engineers and elementalists). > > > > Making FH baseline would immediately create: > > - an issue which now ALWAYS needs to be considered or in some way backed up for warriors baseline 5 second weapon swap with any interaction of traits, utilities, weapons, etc. versus only when Discipline is traited > > - immediate power creep from gaining an additional baseline ability as well as a new trait in discipline > > - more access to weapon abilities which is of special concern when running an elite specialization since now only 1 trait line is locked instead of 2 > > - makes a class specific rune completely useless for its class (granted Rune of the Warrior isn't top tier now, but with baseline FH it becomes completely useless for warriors) > > > > The chances of having baseline FH implemented is infinitely smaller than having the trait removed from the game (which too would create greater balance between trait lines, even if most warriors would not like this change). > > > > It's amazing to me to see people who still do not realize this and even believe that FH baseline would ever be a thing. > > "The entire game is balanced and designed around weapon swaps of 10 seconds on all classes. Sigils were specifically changed with 9 second internal cool downs in mind as to prevent any possible unintended interactions with faster than 10 second weapon swaps now and in the future (most notably affecting warriors, engineers and elementalists)." > > That is not true at all. Warrior is probably the only class that was over all those years balanced also around 5 second weapon swap. > Why do you think builds that don't have Fast Hands (and whole Discipline traitline) are used way less and are less enjoyable to play, have rotations, that are less practical for adapting to combat situations? > Is it because Discipline traitline is straigth overpowered OR because non-Discipline builds are just not that good to be competetive with other professions and their specs? > ___ > "Making FH baseline would immediately create: > 1 - an issue which now ALWAYS needs to be considered or in some way backed up for warriors baseline 5 second weapon swap with any interaction of traits, utilities, weapons, etc. versus only when Discipline is traited > 2 - immediate power creep from gaining an additional baseline ability as well as a new trait in discipline > 3 - more access to weapon abilities which is of special concern when running an elite specialization since now only 1 trait line is locked instead of 2 > 4 - makes a class specific rune completely useless for its class (granted Rune of the Warrior isn't top tier now, but with baseline FH it becomes completely useless for warriors)" > > 1 - that is speculation and there is such nice thing called 9 second ICD, you know Go read here: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil Shocking you are this misinformed, here let me quote: On weapon swap _These sigils activate whenever you weapon swap during combat to a set that includes the sigil; this includes changing elementalist attunements, legend swap, entering death shroud, equipping/stowing engineer kits, as well as Engage/Disengage Photon Forge, or dropping a bundle. **There is an internal cooldown of nine seconds.**_ This is valid for all weapon swap sigils. This was implemented specifically to address issues of having weapon swap sigils proc more often on certain classes and allow them to get better balanced (the sigils). There is more changes besides sigils, but this is a strong indicator that a majority of the game gets balanced around 10 second weapon swap availability. > 2 - another speculation argument, the minor trait can be something insignificant (examples were already made), if you claim that there would be powercreep, please also add specific and precise examples of builds, trait/traitline synergies, etc; you have to realize that buffing anything is fundamentally adding powercreep into game, with such mentality nothing should be buffed ever again; I am talking about powercreep of creating builds as strong or even more broken than warrior currently has How is this speculative? read up that words definition. Unless the trait slot is left empty, or other traits get rebalanced, ANYTHING in that slot is power creep. Not necessary a lot, but it will be a power increase. On top of now having to balance warrior having 5 second weapon swap with EVERY elite specilaization AND two trait lines. That's even more power creep. This is probably the only non speculative argument ever made. Literally it's getting something for free. > 3 - aha, so being locked in 2 traitlines is a good thing, especially for build variety? It is when something as powerful as 5 second weapon swap is locked behind it. You might not like this, but that's how it currently is for ALL classes. Powerful traits and abilities are locked behind having to use specific trait lines. It's called balance. > 4 - class specific rune is as useful as racial skills ;) > That's beside the point. This would be a case where a class specific rune is COMPLETELY useless for its designated class. There is no precedent. If Fast Hands EVER poses a severe balance issue or trait line choice issue, and pray it never does, I guarantee you that it will see removal rather than it becoming base line. The very notion that a class gets 5 second weapon swap outside of some gimmick class mechanic (for which other classes get penalized like elementalist or engi) is absolutely outlandish. > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > To elaborate further on the Vital Persistence nerf example brought up by Sigmoid earlier: Anet didn't just nerf Vital Persistence. They also stripped the 10% damage modifier from a minor trait (Soul Battery) in Soul Reaping and instead put that 10% in a new major trait competing with the weakened Vital Persistence. All the minors for Soul Reaping were nerfed with that patch. The same patch brought buffs to Death Magic. > > Speculating about baseline FH is all well and good, but Anet's track history does not support such a change. **If they decide Disc kills build diversity, then expect heavy nerfs to Disc (light nerfs are a rarity)**. They'd probably buff an underused traitline like Arms at the same time to try and further lessen dependence on Disc. This. It's hilarious how people still argue build diversity for Fast Hands. I've said this in the past, I'll gladly repeat myself. IF the developers decide that Discipline kills build diversity, they will nerf Discipline (as much as removing Fast Hands if need be or making the entire trait line useless besides Fast Hands). That's how balance has been done over the last almost 7 years. That's how balance will continue to get done. To assume that in order to increase build diversity something as Fast Hands gets made baseline is pure fantasy and/or shows a lack of understanding past patches and game changes. Neither showing a that a person arguing for baseline Fast Hands has a good grasp of the game or Arenanets balance approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted April 4, 2019 Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Shadowcat.2680" said: > To elaborate further on the Vital Persistence nerf example brought up by Sigmoid earlier: Anet didn't just nerf Vital Persistence. They also stripped the 10% damage modifier from a minor trait (Soul Battery) in Soul Reaping and instead put that 10% in a new major trait competing with the weakened Vital Persistence. All the minors for Soul Reaping were nerfed with that patch. The same patch brought buffs to Death Magic. > > Speculating about baseline FH is all well and good, but Anet's track history does not support such a change. If they decide Disc kills build diversity, then expect heavy nerfs to Disc (light nerfs are a rarity). They'd probably buff an underused traitline like Arms at the same time to try and further lessen dependence on Disc. I completely agree this is likely to never happen, but it's still something I personally would like to have. What you suggest is probably more likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sneakytails.5629 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 This is why I proposed a 7 second baseline weapon swap, that’s 2 seconds down from base. Still a huge buff, yet at the same time reasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > I really like @"Obtena.7952" , he is like a balance officer keeping people in check :joy: > > Like being completely ignorant and avoiding answering proper questions because of lack of profession knowledge? Wow, because that's totally not what you were doing, right? :D > You want valid reasons why make FH baseline. > My argument: improved rotations, That would be true for prertty much every other class and build. >their smoothness, pace and momentum of non-Discipline builds That would be true for prertty much every other class and build. >therefore improvement for non-Discipline builds overall to be closer to Discipline builds when it comes to practicality. That would be true for prertty much every other class and build. Because FH is extremely strong based on how the game works and NOT based on how warrior works. But you consistently choose to pretend it's not and that's it somehow only complements warrrior's gameplay. That's just a huge load of bullshit to try and make it seem like a "reasonable change", while it's very obviously not. You said you had a "**valid** reason", yet you still didn't give any. > Your argument: not big enough reason. > I want valid reasons why not make FH baseline. It's too strong to be used without any tradeoffs and your """""arguments""""" work on any other class and build (capable of switching weapons) because of how the game works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted April 4, 2019 Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > This is why I proposed a 7 second baseline weapon swap, that’s 2 seconds down from base. Still a huge buff, yet at the same time reasonable. > > =_= 6.5 second, final offer. Jokes aside, I think this would be fine. I still don't think it would be that huge of a buff, a buff still, but not a massive one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Odik.4587" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > Let's break those points: > > Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline. > > More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline. > > **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.** > > They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar) It's not just "in your mind", these are pretty obvious and 100% legitimate comparisons, just because he says "it's not the same because it HAS TO BE ABOUT WEAPON SWAP" (no, it doesn't, he literally keeps talking about it "being specifically useful for a class") and he just chooses to dismiss it because he knows he's wrong and has nothing to answer to that. He literally said that weapon swapping is a part of warriors unique kit (it's very obviously not btw), so it makes sense to make it baselane. Well, initiative or shatter skills are unique (this time for real btw) for the respective classes, so buffing them by moving some of the trait/s into baseline passives would LITERALLY be what his main agument in this discussion is. Yet here he is, saying that "it's not the same, because it's not weapon swap", lmao. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odik.4587 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > Let's break those points: > > > Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline. > > > More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline. > > > **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.** > > > > They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar) > > It's not just "in your mind", these are pretty obvious and 100% legitimate comparisons, just because he says "it's not the same because it HAS TO BE ABOUT WEAPON SWAP" (no, it doesn't, he literally keeps talking about it "being specifically useful for a class") and he just chooses to dismiss it because he knows he's wrong and has nothing to answer to that. > He literally said that weapon swapping is a part of warriors unique kit (it's very obviously not btw), so it makes sense to make it baselane. Well, initiative or shatter skills are unique (this time for real btw) for the respective classes, so buffing them by moving some of the trait/s into baseline passives would LITERALLY be what his main agument in this discussion is. Yet here he is, saying that "it's not the same, because it's not weapon swap", lmao. Yay , I do understand classes! Achievement unlocked! Just as permaban.. but thats another story xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted April 4, 2019 Author Share Posted April 4, 2019 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"Odik.4587" said: > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: You know you guys are never going to find a middle ground right? You and pretty much everyone in this thread (myself included) are absolutely terrible at arguing their points. No one has found a middle ground and no one has swayed anyone else on their position. You'll need to change tactics (lol) if you're actually going to convince anyone. I just started this thread because I thought this would be a nice thing to have, not because I wanted to people to flame each other. I didn't realize at the time that the warrior minor trait FH had the same standing as religion or politics in the GW2 community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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