Zexanima.7851 Posted April 5, 2019 Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > @""Cyninja.2954" > > > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills. > > > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it). > > > > > > > > > > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature. > > > > > > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc. > > > > > > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc. > > > > > > But this isn't a singular class game is it? > > > > I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply. > > > > All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that. > > Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap. > > Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all. > > > > There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior. > If warrior worked fine without 5 second weapon swap then every build wouldn't be based around it having a 5 second weapon swap trait. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap because they are not weapons masters. They have much better utilities baked into there profession design. I have no doubt if they could they would, but they don't have a need for it, they have other tools that are comparable in power. Other professions might benefit from it more, but that would possibly make them over preform as warrior we know it wouldn't because it already doesn't. > Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium. > 5 second weapon swap is insanely strong and warrior without it is insanely weak in comparison to other professions, that's why it needs this insanely strong trait. Don't get me wrong, there are builds that work without it but they niche builds that are not anywhere in any meta for a reason. I agree, Discipline does need nerfing. Removing fast hands from it and making it baseline would nerf Discipline and buff all other trait lines indirectly. They could also nerf it more though I'm not sure what would be the best way without putting more thought into it. > I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line. This is true but it doesn't change the fact that warrior is inherently better with fast hands as most warriors will attest. It's not overpowered with fast hands, it's inline with other professions with it. Making it baseline would not be as huge of a buff as people seem to think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > > @""Cyninja.2954" > > > > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills. > > > > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it). > > > > > > > > > > > > > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature. > > > > > > > > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc. > > > > > > > > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc. > > > > > > > > But this isn't a singular class game is it? > > > > > > I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply. > > > > > > All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that. > > > Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap. > > > Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all. > > > > > > > There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior. > > > If warrior worked fine without 5 second weapon swap then every build wouldn't be based around it having a 5 second weapon swap trait. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap because they are not weapons masters. They have much better utilities baked into there profession design. I have no doubt if they could they would, but they don't have a need for it, they have other tools that are comparable in power. Other professions might benefit from it more, but that would possibly make them over preform as warrior we know it wouldn't because it already doesn't. > So what you are saying, 5 second weapon swap is so strong, no other build works without having it? Seems like removing it and re-balancing around 10 second weapon swap would be a way better approach than making Fast hands base line. It would also reduce work load on having to account 5 second weapon interaction as well as a mandatory trait line. > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium. > > > 5 second weapon swap is insanely strong and warrior without it is insanely weak in comparison to other professions, that's why it needs this insanely strong trait. Don't get me wrong, there are builds that work without it but they niche builds that are not anywhere in any meta for a reason. I agree, Discipline does need nerfing. Removing fast hands from it and making it baseline would nerf Discipline and buff all other trait lines indirectly. They could also nerf it more though I'm not sure what would be the best way without putting more thought into it. > Or, they could nerf Discipline, leave Fast Hands in it and make warriors actually have to make a choice if convenience is worth the trait line. Wanting something and needing something are two different things. Players WANT base line 5 second weapon swap. The class as a whole does not NEED it. > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line. > > This is true but it doesn't change the fact that warrior is inherently better with fast hands as most warriors will attest. It's not overpowered with fast hands, it's inline with other professions with it. Making it baseline would not be as huge of a buff as people seem to think. As would every single other profession. I disagree on the overpowered issue. At the very least, I sincerely doubt many players here would ACTUALLY be willing to take the nerf which would come alongside a base line Fast Hands. We are going in circles though. If people want to expend their time on arguing something nonsensical as this, who am I to judge. It will never happen and I have explained why multiple times by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zexanima.7851 Posted April 5, 2019 Author Share Posted April 5, 2019 > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > > > @""Cyninja.2954" > > > > > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills. > > > > > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature. > > > > > > > > > > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > But this isn't a singular class game is it? > > > > > > > > I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply. > > > > > > > > All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that. > > > > Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap. > > > > Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all. > > > > > > > > > > There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior. > > > > > If warrior worked fine without 5 second weapon swap then every build wouldn't be based around it having a 5 second weapon swap trait. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap because they are not weapons masters. They have much better utilities baked into there profession design. I have no doubt if they could they would, but they don't have a need for it, they have other tools that are comparable in power. Other professions might benefit from it more, but that would possibly make them over preform as warrior we know it wouldn't because it already doesn't. > > > > So what you are saying, 5 second weapon swap is so strong, no other build works without having it? Seems like removing it and re-balancing around 10 second weapon swap would be a way better approach than making Fast hands base line. It would also reduce work load on having to account 5 second weapon interaction as well as a mandatory trait line. > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium. > > > > > 5 second weapon swap is insanely strong and warrior without it is insanely weak in comparison to other professions, that's why it needs this insanely strong trait. Don't get me wrong, there are builds that work without it but they niche builds that are not anywhere in any meta for a reason. I agree, Discipline does need nerfing. Removing fast hands from it and making it baseline would nerf Discipline and buff all other trait lines indirectly. They could also nerf it more though I'm not sure what would be the best way without putting more thought into it. > > > > Or, they could nerf Discipline, leave Fast Hands in it and make warriors actually have to make a choice if convenience is worth the trait line. If all they did was nerf Discipline with no other changes, RIP warrior. They would have to go sit in the corner with thief. At least warrior would still have banners and WoD though. > > Wanting something and needing something are two different things. Players WANT base line 5 second weapon swap. The class as a whole does not NEED it. > They are two different things, that's a faulty way to discredit my argument. The game doesn't NEED any changes at all right now. If they never made a single change to the game ever again it would still work fine. People WANT changes though to help improve the game. > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line. > > > > This is true but it doesn't change the fact that warrior is inherently better with fast hands as most warriors will attest. It's not overpowered with fast hands, it's inline with other professions with it. Making it baseline would not be as huge of a buff as people seem to think. > > As would every single other profession. I disagree on the overpowered issue. At the very least, I sincerely doubt many players here would ACTUALLY be willing to take the nerf which would come alongside a base line Fast Hands. It would already be overpowered if it was going to be as it already has it with every meta build, but it's not. It's middle of the pack at best. I'm sure they would be willing if they knew the alternative would be a nerf to Discipline without getting FH baseline. > > We are going in circles though. If people want to expend their time on arguing something nonsensical as this, who am I to judge. It will never happen and I have explained why multiple times by now. We'll have to agree to disagree on the subject of fast hands then. I can agree that it will never happen though because if it ever was going to it would have already. I think Anet is wrong on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > > > > @""Cyninja.2954" > > > > > > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills. > > > > > > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > But this isn't a singular class game is it? > > > > > > > > > > I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply. > > > > > > > > > > All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that. > > > > > Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap. > > > > > Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior. > > > > > > > > Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium. > > > > > > > > I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line. > > > > > > They can just replace the trait with something like 1 second fury on weapon swap? **Nobody asked for an OP replacement? ** They could leave it blank. > > > > > > Also, the only weapons that can be played without baseline fasthands are GS and Axe (most of the time together as well) > > > > > > Would you rather have them buff Mace and Hammer attack speed and end up with something portentially catastrophic? LOL. > > > > > > Key word on nobody asked for an OP replacement trait assuming that baseline fast hands happen. > > > > > > The other thing is.. why should I have to use discipline so that I can cancel Hammer F1 or Axe F1 more often than if I didn't use discipline? The weapon cancel (aka fake-outs) on those leap burst skills shouldn't be discipline exclusive, what's wrong about making those exclusive to ALL warrior combinations? > > > > > > What we are trying to do is not touch the already decent discipline builds, but maybe incentivize other combinations as well. Okay you can say just buff the other trait lines, but here's the catch I would rather not have Arms have the 100% F1 burst 100% crit chance turn into a minor for example, THAT would be potentially catastrophic. > > > > > > What are you so scared of again when baseline fasthands can be EXECUTED CORRECTLY? > > > > You do realize that there is stuff like Fast Hands for literally every class out there, I named a few earlier. There is a ton of mechanics and limitations in place which are designed the way they are for a reason. Many often being intentionally disruptive or not available without investing into them (aka devoting to a trait line). > > > > It's called balance. > > Why don't you just say "I am fine with the way things are right now" instead of typing a WHOLE PARAGRAPH that can't really prove the "powercreep." Key word on nobody asked for an OP replacement, and assuming that the replacement is not broken, did your warrior build get touched? > Not being in favor of a specific change, is not the same as advocating for no change at all. That does not in any way invalidate what I said about balance. I don't have to address how Fast Hands is power creep, this has been stated in the past. You can agree or disagree. You yourself mentioned that the trait which takes its place could be made near useless. That alone shows that you understand that getting something for free increases power, else why make such a suggestion? > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > As far as base line Fast Hands only being playable on only GS and axe. Welcome to literally EVERY single other class in this game. Every class gets to wait on weapon skill cool downs even when the weapon swap is not available. So either start making a case for 5 second weapons swap for every class, or accept that it will remain a feature of a trait line with opportunity cost associated with it. > > > > As far as scared, hilarious. I would love to see warrior players actually address issues which CAN or should be changed instead of chasing this white whale. Why is someone who advocates for a reasonable approach automatically scared? You did read that I play warrior too right? > > You're the only one who wants things to stay the way they are. That's a boring world that you live in but w/e. > > Let me hear your ideas on "build variety" then. Go. Again, not being in favor of 1 specific change is not the same as being in favor of things staying how they are. I'm sorry I disagree on what warrior needs or how Fast Hands should be dealt with. Sure, my first Idea would be: rework Discipline as a trait line. If Fast Hands is left in it (maybe make it a Grandmaster to facilitate its opportunity cost) , reshuffle some of its benefits to other trait lines. See how mandatory Fast Hands remains, re-balance again in the future, again down if necessary. Overall goal: make all builds less reliant on running Discipline even if this means losing access to Fast Hands. Net result: more build variety. Not saying that would be my preferred approach, but it would get the job done. > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > > > > @""Cyninja.2954" > > > > > > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills. > > > > > > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > But this isn't a singular class game is it? > > > > > > > > > > I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply. > > > > > > > > > > All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that. > > > > > Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap. > > > > > Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior. > > > > > > > If warrior worked fine without 5 second weapon swap then every build wouldn't be based around it having a 5 second weapon swap trait. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap because they are not weapons masters. They have much better utilities baked into there profession design. I have no doubt if they could they would, but they don't have a need for it, they have other tools that are comparable in power. Other professions might benefit from it more, but that would possibly make them over preform as warrior we know it wouldn't because it already doesn't. > > > > > > > So what you are saying, 5 second weapon swap is so strong, no other build works without having it? Seems like removing it and re-balancing around 10 second weapon swap would be a way better approach than making Fast hands base line. It would also reduce work load on having to account 5 second weapon interaction as well as a mandatory trait line. > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium. > > > > > > > 5 second weapon swap is insanely strong and warrior without it is insanely weak in comparison to other professions, that's why it needs this insanely strong trait. Don't get me wrong, there are builds that work without it but they niche builds that are not anywhere in any meta for a reason. I agree, Discipline does need nerfing. Removing fast hands from it and making it baseline would nerf Discipline and buff all other trait lines indirectly. They could also nerf it more though I'm not sure what would be the best way without putting more thought into it. > > > > > > > Or, they could nerf Discipline, leave Fast Hands in it and make warriors actually have to make a choice if convenience is worth the trait line. > If all they did was nerf Discipline with no other changes, RIP warrior. They would have to go sit in the corner with thief. At least warrior would still have banners and WoD though. > > > > Wanting something and needing something are two different things. Players WANT base line 5 second weapon swap. The class as a whole does not NEED it. > > > They are two different things, that's a faulty way to discredit my argument. The game doesn't NEED any changes at all right now. If they never made a single change to the game ever again it would still work fine. People WANT changes though to help improve the game. > The game needs a lot. Especially in the balance department. I disagree that Fast Hands base line is a step in the correct direction though. Players first and fore most want changes which make THEIR class stronger, better, more fun, etc. Go check out most class forums, there is something similar to the Fast Hands demand on a regular basis in every one of them. > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said: > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said: > > > > I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line. > > > > > > This is true but it doesn't change the fact that warrior is inherently better with fast hands as most warriors will attest. It's not overpowered with fast hands, it's inline with other professions with it. Making it baseline would not be as huge of a buff as people seem to think. > > > > As would every single other profession. I disagree on the overpowered issue. At the very least, I sincerely doubt many players here would ACTUALLY be willing to take the nerf which would come alongside a base line Fast Hands. > It would already be overpowered if it was going to be as it already has it with every meta build, but it's not. It's middle of the pack at best. I'm sure they would be willing if they knew the alternative would be a nerf to Discipline without getting FH baseline. > > > > We are going in circles though. If people want to expend their time on arguing something nonsensical as this, who am I to judge. It will never happen and I have explained why multiple times by now. > > We'll have to agree to disagree on the subject of fast hands then. I can agree that it will never happen though because if it ever was going to it would have already. I think Anet is wrong on this. Fair enough. Let's hope what ever Arenanet come up with, it will enhance any class they balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTruth.6813 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 >Not being in favor of a specific change, is not the same as advocating for no change at all. That does not in any way invalidate what I said about balance. I don't have to >address how Fast Hands is power creep, this has been stated in the past. You can agree or disagree. You yourself mentioned that the trait which takes its place could be >made near useless. That alone shows that you understand that getting something for free increases power, else why make such a suggestion? "It's powercreep" but failing to point out which specific builds will become aids. Odik was already nice enough to point out that maybe STR DEF Spellbreaker, maybe follow the same format? But I'm sure you're not going to do it. Also, when I say the replacement trait can be made useless, they can just not touch/buff the already strong discipline builds and give the same fake-out potential to other builds. Failing to point out where the powercreep is, is pretty pointless. Shutting down the argument with.. no real argument on which build you are so scared of is moot. I'm sure you're going to cop out and not tell me which build will prove the powercreep assuming that "discipline" builds stay as it is. But I'll be nice and just say you ran out of "real" arguments when you said "It's called balance" because you cannot be more feelings based than that. >You do realize that there is stuff like Fast Hands for literally every class out there, I named a few earlier. There is a ton of mechanics and limitations in place which are designed the way they are for a reason. Many often being intentionally disruptive or not available without investing into them (aka devoting to a trait line). >It's called balance. Like okay, so discipline being able to cancel Hammer F1s and Axe F1s more than non-discipline builds is called balance. Can't be more feelings based than that when you refuse to tell me HOW it's fair for discipline to be the only tree that allows fake-out potential and being able to swap more often to a DPS weapon when you stun somebody with hammer or mace. >Again, not being in favor of 1 specific change is not the same as being in favor of things staying how they are. I'm sorry I disagree on what warrior needs or how Fast Hands should be dealt with. >Sure, my first Idea would be: rework Discipline as a trait line. If Fast Hands is left in it (maybe make it a Grandmaster to facilitate its opportunity cost) , reshuffle some of its benefits to other trait lines. See how mandatory Fast Hands remains, re-balance again in the future, again down if necessary. >Overall goal: make all builds less reliant on running Discipline even if this means losing access to Fast Hands. Net result: more build variety. >Not saying that would be my preferred approach, but it would get the job done. What you are proposing is POTENTIALLY time consuming. And to make Warrior not rely on 5 second swaps, what are you going to do? Increase hammer and mace attack speed? GS and Axe are already playable as is. No specific examples of how you would rework discipline either, but it honestly feels like you're just wasting time when baseline fasthands would be good enough. What are you going to do, give Warrior instant cast? Ignore protection? Ignore stability? Catastrophic. But w/e here's to hoping "your world" isn't garbage. Going your route takes too much time. And god forbid that you propose actual garbage changes when something that took so little effort, didn't break the game, and is a big impact while potentially balanced could be implemented instead. Giving all Warrior builds fake-out potential without touching the builds that already discipline should be good enough. **Because from what it sounds like, you're trying to make NEW STANDARDS** and it isn't time tested either. What we have right now? We only need a small push. Your idea of rework is just time consuming when we already have decent standards nowadays. And I can also be as paranoid as you are and say that your way of "changing" Warrior has a higher chance of being "bad powercreep," like seriously? Making Warrior not depend on a 5 second swap? Your ideas have a chance of failing horribly as well PLUS the time consuming part. Completely reworking Warrior so it doesn't need the 10 second weapon swap? That's idealistic and not exactly better. >**Overall goal: make all builds less reliant on running Discipline even if this means losing access to Fast Hands. Net result: more build variety.** TL;DR Let me remind you that your ulterior motive, is potentially catastrophic as well. There is a good chance that with your proposition? That you CAN actually be worse than any of us that advocated baseline fasthands. That you can actually create a greater, more evil powercreep with what you are trying to do here.. so don't go around painting people who advocate for baseline fast hands as evil when your ideas are potentially just as catastrophic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyninja.2954 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 > @"BlackTruth.6813" said: > TL;DR Let me remind you that your ulterior motive, is potentially catastrophic as well. There is a good chance that with your proposition? That you CAN actually be worse than any of us that advocated baseline fasthands. That you can actually create a greater, more evil powercreep with what you are trying to do here.. so don't go around painting people who advocate for baseline fast hands as evil when your ideas are potentially just as catastrophic. True, you know the difference though? My idea treats warrior the same as every other class in the game, with 10 second weapon swap as balance base line. Making Fast Hands base line does not. Could any changes create power creep or highly unbalanced builds? Absolutely, the introduction of HoT and PoF and the subsequent changes have shown this every time, as have intermediate balance patches. I'm also sure Fast Hands base line could be balanced. I doubt though that people in this thread have actually considered that base line FH might cause SERIOUS unfavorable re-balance in multiple trait lines and skills. I have yet to see any argument made which goes beyond: I wants for free. Which tells me 1 thing: people have not entertained a balanced idea, but simply want stuff. That's not how balance or a well though out implementation works. I'd rather go with more similar base lines across all classes first for balance, and worry about the details later. Versus the idea to go in and make drastic changes to 1 class and just wing it down the road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > How can you say, that pushing FH to baseline makes Discipline more appealing? Pretty easily actually, because Discipline as a whole traitline is focused on giving advantages to players that use lots of weapon swapping. Giving all warriors baseline FH naturally biases players to choose Discipline to take those advantages, in ADDITION to all the other awesome things Discipline has if you don't. I mean how can you NOT see that? Again, all roads for the reasons you are providing for FH baseline point to Nerfville; even your own statements indicate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cryorion.9532 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 @"Cyninja.2954" "Could any changes create power creep or highly unbalanced builds? Absolutely, the introduction of HoT and PoF and the subsequent changes have shown this every time, as have intermediate balance patches." I compeltely agree with this. The thing is that we want to discuss those exact unbalance builds here in detail, so see and understand if FH is really going to make powercreep as some people imply. I am completely fine with post-rebalance after making Fast Hands baseline. Whether it will be unfavorable or not depends only on Anet and builds that would be too strong due to change (which we want to discuss here mainly to see if there would even be any). Making FH baseline will not magically fix warrior class once and for all, forever. Also, making FH baseline is also not reason to now nerf Discipline traitline. There is possibility that there could be new competetive non-Discipline build with FH baseline, but that is exactly the point of this whole change, to make other builds useful and even competetive. "I'd rather go with more similar base lines across all classes first for balance, and worry about the details later. Versus the idea to go in and make drastic changes to 1 class and just wing it down the road." This is understandable. But we could also use our knowledge to predict what would be too strong with this drastic change by precisely describing builds, traits and traitline synergies which have potential to become too strong/broken and then consider if FH basline is really going to create big balance outbreak. Making FH baseline is easiest alternative to buff less played warrior builds while not causing as big powercreep as some people claim = thus efficient buff. Most vocal people in this thread (that are against FH baseline) so far haven't provide specific examples to back up their arguments with. I asked e.g. Obtena multiple times, how would exactly FH baseline cause powercreep, precise examples, etc, but he/she avoids it since page 1, then he suddenly accuses me for twisting his arguments (that he didn't even say anything about powercreep) even though he wrote it himself/herself in one of his replies (that FH baseline would create powercreep). At this point I am not even interested to discuss those precise examples anymore, discussing here is just too tedious, exhausting and time consuming. Anet probably didn't even read any of this + I have no expectations of FH becoming baseline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 > @"cryorion.9532" said: > Making FH baseline is easiest alternative to buff less played warrior builds while not causing as big powercreep as some people claim = thus efficient buff. Except it wouldn't, because handing out weapon swapping baseline capabilities is going to make the weapons swapping focused traitline more appealing as a choice .. and it's ALREADY highly appealing as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loading.4503 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > Making FH baseline is easiest alternative to buff less played warrior builds while not causing as big powercreep as some people claim = thus efficient buff. > > Except it wouldn't, because handing out weapon swapping baseline capabilities is going to make the weapons swapping focused traitline more appealing as a choice .. and it's ALREADY highly appealing as it is. Im trying to make sense of what u said... If fh went baseline and people still picked discipline, it would be like nothing happened at all, but if u pick something else besides discipline, you lose out on all weaponswap focused traits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 > @"Loading.4503" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > Making FH baseline is easiest alternative to buff less played warrior builds while not causing as big powercreep as some people claim = thus efficient buff. > > > > Except it wouldn't, because handing out weapon swapping baseline capabilities is going to make the weapons swapping focused traitline more appealing as a choice .. and it's ALREADY highly appealing as it is. > > Im trying to make sense of what u said... > If fh went baseline and people still picked discipline, it would be like nothing happened at all, but if u pick something else besides discipline, you lose out on all weaponswap focused traits... > Exactly ... so basically, giving people baseline FH pushes them in the direction of taking Discipline. The Cryorion is trying to claim the OPPOSITE would happen; that baseline FH is more beneficial to non-discipline builds more than it would be for discipline builds. That CAN'T be true because Discipline holds all the weapons swapping benefits of the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loading.4503 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Loading.4503" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said: > > > > Making FH baseline is easiest alternative to buff less played warrior builds while not causing as big powercreep as some people claim = thus efficient buff. > > > > > > Except it wouldn't, because handing out weapon swapping baseline capabilities is going to make the weapons swapping focused traitline more appealing as a choice .. and it's ALREADY highly appealing as it is. > > > > Im trying to make sense of what u said... > > If fh went baseline and people still picked discipline, it would be like nothing happened at all, but if u pick something else besides discipline, you lose out on all weaponswap focused traits... > > > > Exactly ... so basically, giving people baseline FH pushes them in the direction of taking Discipline. The Cryorion is trying to claim the OPPOSITE would happen; that baseline FH is more beneficial to non-discipline builds more than it would be for discipline builds. That CAN'T be true because Discipline holds all the weapons swapping benefits of the class. But thats the whole point of baseline fh, you are intentionally giving up those traits to be able to pick up an entire different line, otherwise it would be asking for baseline fh AND weaponswap traits to be baseline for what youre saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 That's only true if you assume that people take Discipline ONLY for FH ... I'm doubtful that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loading.4503 Posted April 6, 2019 Share Posted April 6, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > That's only true if you assume that people take Discipline ONLY for FH ... I'm doubtful that's the case. This is going to go around in circles LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 > @"Loading.4503" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > That's only true if you assume that people take Discipline ONLY for FH ... I'm doubtful that's the case. > > This is going to go around in circles LOL > > > Is it? I don't really get the barrier to understanding the idea that handing out a weapon swapping advantage as baseline will bias warrior builds towrads the traitline that gives more advantages to weapon swapping. Feel free to explain yourself if you think otherwise. Let's have a mind experiment with an extreme example to illustrate the point: Anet gives all warriors the ability to be invulnerable to all damage for 10 seconds when they heal or successfully revive someone. What happens? What does that build look like? Does that build look like people running away screaming from Tactics? No it doesn't. Exactly the opposite. Now I'm not saying FH is at that same level of impact or power as my example (because I know some obtuse people will bring that up) ... my point is just that if you give players baseline skills, they are biased towards builds that take advantage of those baseline skills. In this case, it's worse, because all of the advantages are in a single, already very desirable traitline. It should be obvious. Some people would have us believe that wouldn't happen, that in fact it's the OPPOSITE; that making FH baseline would make Discipline LESS attractive but that doesn't make sense unless the only reason someone takes Discipline is for FH. I'm extremely doubtful that anyone that knows how to make a functioning build would take a traitline because of a single minor trait. As I've said many times already ... IF that is the case, then that single minor trait is inline for a massive nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loading.4503 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 Ur saying that if fastline gets baselined, people will still take discipline becaust the line is that good, in that case its like fasthand baseline never happened. But if you intentionally take a different line, youll missout on all those strong traits which will be intentionally making urself weaker, so why not just give it to us then lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 > @"Loading.4503" said: > Ur saying that if fastline gets baselined, people will still take discipline becaust the line is that good, in that case its like fasthand baseline never happened. But if you intentionally take a different line, youll missout on all those strong traits which will be intentionally making urself weaker, so why not just give it to us then lol No, I didn't say that. I'm saying that if you give people FH baseline, they are biased towards choosing Discipline. Therefore, the argument that baseline FH improves build diversity is complete nonsense. What you say is also not true ... if FH is baseline, Anet would replace it with something else in it's spot in Discipline, so it's not like making FH baseline doesn't change things (for the better) for people using Discipline. Why not give it? That doesn't make much sense ... you can choose it if you want it; you have to make a choice. That's how the trait system works. I mean, "I want free traits" isn't a compelling reason to make traits you can choose baseline so you don't have to make choices. That much should be obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girth.9731 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Loading.4503" said: > > Ur saying that if fastline gets baselined, people will still take discipline becaust the line is that good, in that case its like fasthand baseline never happened. But if you intentionally take a different line, youll missout on all those strong traits which will be intentionally making urself weaker, so why not just give it to us then lol > > No, I didn't say that. I'm saying that if you give people FH baseline, they are biased towards choosing Discipline. Therefore, the argument that baseline FH improves build diversity is complete nonsense. What you say is also not true ... if FH is baseline, Anet would replace it with something else in it's spot in Discipline, so it's not like making FH baseline doesn't change things (for the better) for people using Discipline. > > Why not give it? That doesn't make much sense ... you can choose it if you want it; you have to make a choice. That's how the trait system works. I mean, "I want free traits" isn't a compelling reason to make traits you can choose baseline so you don't have to make choices. That much should be obvious. Your argument is essentially "if FH is so good then just take Discipline" which totally misses the point of what this post is about. This post is about build diversity and how we can break the now 7 year history of Warriors being essentially required to take Discipline. If you think that this is a problem worth fixing, making FH baseline actually makes alot of sense. 1. Making FH baseline and replacing the trait with something else would provide a small buff to the existing PvP and WvW builds, no doubt. Is this really so bad though? Is Warrior overperforming in these gamemodes right now? How often do we see Warriors in ATs these days? Not very. A small buff to the existing builds via the addition of a single trait would hardly change this. 2. Making FH baseline would be a huge buff to builds that try to pass on Discipline (which are currently horrible and virtually unplayable). Builds like SB Str Def and Str Arms Def that people have tried (myself included) are incredibly clunky and usually extremely weak to condi. A buff to these builds may allow Warrior to explore them finally. 3. FH is thematic with the Warrior class in GW2. Warrior is supposed to be the master of weaponry. It makes sense that a profession which is touted as such would have some inherent benefits pertaining to weapons. TL:DR FH baseline would be a slight improvement to current Warrior builds, a large buff for the horrible ones that don't use Disipline, and would be highly thematic with the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 > @"Girth.9731" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Loading.4503" said: > > > Ur saying that if fastline gets baselined, people will still take discipline becaust the line is that good, in that case its like fasthand baseline never happened. But if you intentionally take a different line, youll missout on all those strong traits which will be intentionally making urself weaker, so why not just give it to us then lol > > > > No, I didn't say that. I'm saying that if you give people FH baseline, they are biased towards choosing Discipline. Therefore, the argument that baseline FH improves build diversity is complete nonsense. What you say is also not true ... if FH is baseline, Anet would replace it with something else in it's spot in Discipline, so it's not like making FH baseline doesn't change things (for the better) for people using Discipline. > > > > Why not give it? That doesn't make much sense ... you can choose it if you want it; you have to make a choice. That's how the trait system works. I mean, "I want free traits" isn't a compelling reason to make traits you can choose baseline so you don't have to make choices. That much should be obvious. > > Your argument is essentially "if FH is so good then just take Discipline" which totally misses the point of what this post is about. This post is about build diversity and how we can break the now 7 year history of Warriors being essentially required to take Discipline. If you think that this is a problem worth fixing, making FH baseline actually makes alot of sense. I already explained how making FH baseline does NOT address build diversity many times. People will not just pass up Discipline just because they have FH as baseline because FH isn't the only reason people take Discipline. Yes, I have no doubt it would be a buff in general ... that's a trivial reason to make any buff. Yes, I see that there is some link to master of weaponry ... that's why warriors have FH in Discipline as a choice in the first place. Being highly thematic is not a reason to make it baseline. The direction of the themes you want to take are determined by taking traitlines. That's how every class and all the traits are designed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girth.9731 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Girth.9731" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Loading.4503" said: > > > > Ur saying that if fastline gets baselined, people will still take discipline becaust the line is that good, in that case its like fasthand baseline never happened. But if you intentionally take a different line, youll missout on all those strong traits which will be intentionally making urself weaker, so why not just give it to us then lol > > > > > > No, I didn't say that. I'm saying that if you give people FH baseline, they are biased towards choosing Discipline. Therefore, the argument that baseline FH improves build diversity is complete nonsense. What you say is also not true ... if FH is baseline, Anet would replace it with something else in it's spot in Discipline, so it's not like making FH baseline doesn't change things (for the better) for people using Discipline. > > > > > > Why not give it? That doesn't make much sense ... you can choose it if you want it; you have to make a choice. That's how the trait system works. I mean, "I want free traits" isn't a compelling reason to make traits you can choose baseline so you don't have to make choices. That much should be obvious. > > > > Your argument is essentially "if FH is so good then just take Discipline" which totally misses the point of what this post is about. This post is about build diversity and how we can break the now 7 year history of Warriors being essentially required to take Discipline. If you think that this is a problem worth fixing, making FH baseline actually makes alot of sense. > > I already explained how making FH baseline does NOT address build diversity many times. People will not just pass up Discipline just because they have FH as baseline because FH isn't the only reason people take Discipline. > > Yes, I have no doubt it would be a buff in general ... that's a trivial reason to make any buff. > Yes, I see that there is some link to master of weaponry ... that's why warriors have FH in Discipline as a choice in the first place. Being highly thematic is not a reason to make it baseline. The direction of the themes you want to take are determined by taking traitlines. That's how every class and all the traits are designed. > > Your claim that people will still take Discipline anyway is pretty unfounded. I think we can agree that, at the very least, it would be a good first step at encouraging players to try other builds. If you have ever tried play those builds, you will quickly realize how important FH is to the class. The Warrior's weapon skill have been balanced around the fact that FH exists. An easy solution to the problem would be to make FH baseline. Also you claim that theme is not a reason to make things baseline, that you must chose a theme. Yet, look what Anet did with Mesmer during the rework? Made a number of traits baseline that were previously scattered about the various trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 Just as unfounded as saying people would not take it. I honestly can't see how giving a player baseline FH encourages them to try builds that don't have Discipline in them. Why would I NOT take discipline if FH as baseline? Giving people baseline traits from a trait line does NOT make that traitline less desirable, especially if there are many traits in it that strongly align to the baseline ability. It just doesn't make sense to think that Discipline becomes unattractive as a traitline because I have a 5 second weapon swap. If anything, having a baseline 5 second weapon swap makes the whole bunch of weapon swapping traits in Discipline MORE attractive, not less. I'm not saying Anet doesn't make things baseline either, but just because they do it occasionally doesn't mean by default, any idea to make something baseline is a good one. Other things being made baseline is not a good reason to make FH baseline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 you guys are thinking about diversity completely backwards. rather then making strong things baseline, its better to buff under powered things for 2 reasons: it doesn't make things op and/or add power creep, and it adds diversity by making bad traits better. making good traits base line does add more diversity, but it does it in a negative way. if we make the case for fast hands, why not every other strong trait for other classes? necro gets might on shroud auto and boon corrupt upon entering shroud, thus no need to take spite. engi gets hgh and vigor on swiftness thus no need to take alchemy for elixir builds. do you see where this is going? its going to hell thats where. if things were made baseline, that doesn't make other choices better. it simply makes them available, which is a huge difference. also, this. > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > 5 seconds is too fast for a 8 second burst recharge (non-disc) Warrior anyways. yeah better make burst recharge base line as well eh? big lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girth.9731 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > Just as unfounded as saying people would not take it. I honestly can't see how giving a player baseline FH encourages them to try builds that don't have Discipline in them. Why would I NOT take discipline if FH as baseline? Giving people baseline traits from a trait line does NOT make that traitline less desirable, especially if there are many traits in it that strongly align to the baseline ability. It just doesn't make sense to think that Discipline becomes unattractive as a traitline because I have a 5 second weapon swap. If anything, having a baseline 5 second weapon swap makes the whole bunch of weapon swapping traits in Discipline MORE attractive, not less. > > I'm not saying Anet doesn't make things baseline either, but just because they do it occasionally doesn't mean by default, any idea to make something baseline is a good one. Other things being made baseline is not a good reason to make FH baseline. Yes, it does not make discipline less desirable, no one has ever claimed that, but yet you keep stating it. It only makes other trait lines more attractive has they now essentially have access to a trait they perviously didnt. If you still don't understand, think of it like this: making FH baseline does nothing to affect the current meta builds, but it buffs any non-disipline builds. Thus, making non-discipline builds more attractive as they are now stronger. Hope that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girth.9731 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 > I'm not saying Anet doesn't make things baseline either, but just because they do it occasionally doesn't mean by default, any idea to make something baseline is a good one. Other things being made baseline is not a good reason to make FH baseline. I didn't claim that was the reason, you are strawmaning. You said theme was never a reason to make things baseline, yet it was done with the mesmer. I was giving a counter example to disprove your claim, not making one myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Girth.9731 Posted April 8, 2019 Share Posted April 8, 2019 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > you guys are thinking about diversity completely backwards. rather then making strong things baseline, its better to buff under powered things for 2 reasons: it doesn't make things op and/or add power creep, and it adds diversity by making bad traits better. making good traits base line does add more diversity, but it does it in a negative way. if we make the case for fast hands, why not every other strong trait for other classes? necro gets might on shroud auto and boon corrupt upon entering shroud, thus no need to take spite. engi gets hgh and vigor on swiftness thus no need to take alchemy for elixir builds. do you see where this is going? its going to hell thats where. if things were made baseline, that doesn't make other choices better. it simply makes them available, which is a huge difference. > > also, this. > > > @"sneakytails.5629" said: > > 5 seconds is too fast for a 8 second burst recharge (non-disc) Warrior anyways. > yeah better make burst recharge base line as well eh? big lol. Making FH baseline is actually a great way to avoid powercreep. Take for example SB, Str, Def build that have been tried but currently suck. Which traitline to you propose buffing to fix this? Do you see the problem? Anything you buff will also make other builds that utilize those traitlines more powerful, builds that are already strong enough. Making FH baseline keeps the meta builds as they are and buffs any build that doesnt take discipline, its a much better solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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