Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"Girth.9731" said:

> Making FH baseline is actually a great way to avoid powercreep.

 

i don't even know what to say. its pointless lol.

[sneakytails.5629]

> also, this.

>

> > @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> > 5 seconds is too fast for a 8 second burst recharge (non-disc) Warrior anyways.

> yeah better make burst recharge base line as well eh? big lol.

 

That's not what I meant (making everything good baseline....). What I was trying to say is that the Burst mechanic is the main element that Warrior plays around. Warriors can literally live or die by bursts landing or not landing. With that said I think from a balance perspective that having weapon swaps align with burst recharge rates is GOOD GAME DESIGN. If you dont take the Discipline traitline then you should have a longer burst recharge and longer weapon swap.

 

From a personal perspective I prefer a faster weapon swap and I want my burst to align with that better so I choose the Discipline traitline. I do not run Rampage, Greatsword, Shield, or Bulls Charge. Because I do not spend time on Shield or Rampage I tend to have more time to burst so I want a faster burst recharge so I can do it more often. This is how a Shield-less Warrior stays alive in my opinion, especially on the Axe/Axe-Rifle weapon set that I run.

 

I have already said leave Discipline alone, and consider a 7 second base weapon swap as a small buff to non-Discipline builds.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Girth.9731" said:

>

> > I'm not saying Anet doesn't make things baseline either, but just because they do it occasionally doesn't mean by default, any idea to make something baseline is a good one. Other things being made baseline is not a good reason to make FH baseline.

>

> I didn't claim that was the reason, you are strawmaning. You said theme was never a reason to make things baseline, yet it was done with the mesmer. I was giving a counter example to disprove your claim, not making one myself.

>

 

Not sure that's entirely accurate but it's not worth the argument anyways since you are basically admitting being pedantic at this point. Without wasting much time on this, I'm pretty sure that when Anet made those things baseline, it wasn't ONLY because it fit the mesmer theme; there is certainly more to their justification than this because being 'thematic' as a reason to simply give people a whole bunch of skills is not inline with how traits work or is it on its own, not a really meaningful reason anyways ... ALL traits are 'in theme' with the classes they belong to ... yet they are still not baseline ... they are chosen. Again ... trivial reasons are trivial. Being 'in theme' isn't enough to justify baseline.

 

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Girth.9731" said:

> > Making FH baseline is actually a great way to avoid powercreep.

>

> i don't even know what to say. its pointless lol.

 

Yeah ... that's what I think sometimes. How making skills baseline and that NOT being powercreep???? ... #mindblown.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Girth.9731" said:

> > Making FH baseline is actually a great way to avoid powercreep.

>

> i don't even know what to say. its pointless lol.

 

"I don't know what to say. it's pointless lol." is not enough proof to say that FH baseline is the most evil powercreep to happen in history.

 

Guess what Obtena implied as a suggestion? Nerf discipline buff other trees. You're saying that can't have a high chance of catastrophic bad powercreep?

 

Cyninja would almost be tolerable, "rework Warrior so it doesn't require fast hands" but he picked the route that is inherently has the most catastrophic potential too.

 

We didn't ask for an attack speed increase so Warrior can "function without fast hands," we didn't ask for instant cast. We didn't ask for an OP replacement on the discipline trait.

 

**All we asked for is , don't touch discipline builds and incentivize (with a small SAFE buff) non-discipline builds: so we don't get stuck in Rifle for long periods of times in Arms Defense Berserker for example, or so that we are ABLE to swap into DPS weapons when we land a stun on Hammer and Mace on a NON DISCIPLINE BUILD, or so that non-discipline builds can have weapon swap cancels because that discipline exclusivity for fake-out weapon cancels don't really make sense. And if that's powercreep, name a build other than STR DEF Spellbreaker that might become OP**

 

The concept that Warrior can (fake-out cancel with weapon swap) leap F1 skills, or CC and then switch to a DPS weapon concept more often than other classes is fine as is. Don't need a "rework" because that is too time consuming. Should carry along to other builds, not just Discipline because it is the least catastrophic way to give changes to Warrior and probably the least time consuming thing for ANET to do. ANET doing their own thing is generally more catastrophic anyways, that's why don't go around "censoring" suggestions because feelings.

 

Baseline fast hands won't be catastrophic compared to anything else that was suggested. This is why you need to prove power creep, tell me what build is broken overpowered if baseline FH happens. But people are either too scared because they will be ridiculed if they say STR ARMS DEF becomes OP for bad reasons. Just TRY for god sake it isn't hard because if you try then at least you tried to prove where the powercreep is.

 

We already have a good standard going on where an example would be Hammer and Mace should be used for CC, it shouldn't receive an attack speed increase so it turns into Ranger GS 2.0 so it can function "without fast hands" or stability ignore. THOSE are catastrophic, baseline fasthands isn't.

 

But w/e, people are cowards who will NEVER find real arguments against it. Most of the arguments against it has been feelings based and so far melandru (getting stuck in rifle for a non-fast hands build as "counterplay" against non-disc rifle builds) AND Odik are the only ones who found legit arguments (STR DEF Spellbreaker dodge spam [endurance on might gain] with the defense trait). You can say it isn't "feasible," but how are these people who are against it different when they say "nerf discipline buff other trees" or "make Warrior work without relying on fast hands?" The potential hypocrisy is insane. You are saying YOUR solutions can't be more catastrophic in theory? LOL.

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"Girth.9731" said:

> > > Making FH baseline is actually a great way to avoid powercreep.

> >

> > i don't even know what to say. its pointless lol.

>

> "I don't know what to say. it's pointless lol." is not enough proof to say that FH baseline is the most evil powercreep to happen in history.

 

Don't be sensational to criminalize and belittle people's opinion ... that's no one's problem with the idea.

 

Again, you aren't giving anyone build diversity by handing out free traits. The whole idea people would be less likely to take weapon swapping traitline if you give them a baseline weaponswapping advantage is preposterous.

 

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> But w/e, people are cowards who will NEVER find real arguments against it.

 

LAWL at calling people cowards that don't agree with you ... again. I guess you care little about your forum access.

[Girth.9731]

 

> Yeah ... that's what I think sometimes. How making skills baseline and that NOT being powercreep???? ... #mindblown.

 

It seems like your definition of powercreep is buffing anything. Again, if you would please adress my point instead of posing rhetorical questions that only express a position I know you hold already. Take for example the SB Strength Defense builds that seem cool but currently suck. In this scenerio, which traitline would you buff to make this build more viable? Simple question.

[Obtena.7952]

I don't know what else you would call it ... you're baseline buffing a whole class. If that doesn't bump them up in power, then what do you want to call it? I'm actually not interested in debating definitions, but you have to acknowledge that's is an increase in power for the class, which is the point people are making; they call it powercreep because they don't want to have to type out a wall of text. I don't see a reason to wax academic about it to make a point of debate; the overall intentions are clear. I don't object to baseline buffs per say but it's not based on false claims like build diversity, etc ... even the theme idea is weak because weapon swapping isn't warriors defining element, burst is.

 

I don't know what I would buff to make that build more viable, I don't play it and I don't see it's relevance to the FH baseline point anyways ... it's an academic question (and a subjective opinion that build sucks to boot). It's pretty clear to me that specific builds don't have performance targets in the first place. That's not how balance works in this game. That kind of thinking doesn't 'fit' here.

[Girth.9731]

 

> I don't know what I would buff to make that build more viable, I don't play it and I don't see it's relevance to the FH baseline point anyways ... it's an academic question (and a subjective opinion that build sucks to boot). It's pretty clear to me that specific builds don't have performance targets in the first place. That's not how balance works in this game. That kind of thinking doesn't 'fit' here.

 

So you are saying these builds just shouldnt be viable? If you aren't interested in increasing warrior build diversity then why are you even here having a discussion? Its not a subjective opinion, its a fact that the build has never even been considered decent by anyone in the warrior community. Also, its extremely revelant to the topic and the fact that you cant see that is part of why you dont understand why warriors want FH baseline. Ill try again to create an understanding for you.

 

SB Str Def, as I'll call it, is a build that many warriors have tried (including myself and guildies) to make work and is probably the closest thing we have to a functioning non-discipline pvp build, but unfortunately still sucks. Now lets look at the solutions to this with the goal of build diversity in mind.

 

1. We can nerf discipline as you have hinted at. Well that doesnt make any sense. Warrior is already stuggling as it is to stay relevant in PvP in a world of Mirage brain-dead condi spam, Scourge spam, etc. This would kill the meta builds and create a dead class. Horrible solution.

 

2. We can buff the traitlines. Again, bad solution. Any buffs to the traitlines themselves would make both the underused fringe builds AND the meta builds stronger. This isnt what we want. This would not create build diversity, only make the meta builds even more popular. Powercreep.

 

3. We can make FH baseline. This does NOT buff the meta builds as they already have access to FH. If they made FH baseline tomorrow and I kept playing what I've been playing, I wouldnt even notice a difference. However, if that day, I decided to play SB Str Def, for example, I would notice a HUGE difference. The importance of fastswapping cant really be understood untill you've played the class. Thus, in this scenario, the meta builds stayed the same and the frings builds became stronger. Do you see this yet?

 

 

[Odik.4587]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

Do you even enjoy being involved into this discussion? Seems like you are stuck in the jail with a few ppl and cant get out :joy:

And still war about FH goes on...By that time I would be exhausted

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> snips

 

hahaha dood youre crackin me up.

[Edge.8724]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Do you even enjoy being involved into this discussion? Seems like you are stuck in the jail with a few ppl and cant get out :joy:

> And still war about FH goes on...By that time I would be exhausted

 

This discussion seems to never end.

 

Though I'm not against that famous baseline fast hand, I believe there are far more effective ways to improve warriors anyway.

 

More "F" skills would be a lot more better to me...

 

and/or

 

Just reworks the other traits. Discipline isn't too strong though, all the other traits are simply underperforming.

 

This might be subjective, saying this based on my experience.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Girth.9731" said:

>

> > I don't know what I would buff to make that build more viable, I don't play it and I don't see it's relevance to the FH baseline point anyways ... it's an academic question (and a subjective opinion that build sucks to boot). It's pretty clear to me that specific builds don't have performance targets in the first place. That's not how balance works in this game. That kind of thinking doesn't 'fit' here.

>

> So you are saying these builds just shouldnt be viable?

 

That's how the game is designed ... there is a wide range of builds from completely awful to the best. Why should the one you're talking about be any different? Why should THAT build be justification for why FH should be baseline? That makes absolutely no sense because it means I can take any poorly performing build and decide trait X as baseline would improve it ... well, duh, that's a pretty trivial reason to do so. No specific build should be anything anyone thinks it should be in the first place.

 

On top of that, how do you know all the sudden, all these builds become viable because of baseline FH? It just doesn't make any sense what you are saying. IF you want to argue builds are viable or not, go ahead because it's irrelevant ... that's based on the assumption that there are targets for specific build performance. Why would anyone think that exists?

[Odik.4587]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

Why dont you just stop responding. You cant prove nothing to a thiccheads. Just stop it . How its called... Agree to disagree ?

 

 

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"Girth.9731" said:

> > Making FH baseline is actually a great way to avoid powercreep.

>

> i don't even know what to say. its pointless lol.

 

Yup, it's futile. There's probably nothing you can say, because they're not capable of critically thinking and they'll just cover their ears and keep repeating same bullshit like "changing the strongest and most versatile trait in the spec (or, possibly, the game) into a class passive is a way to avoid power creep" and somehow is perfectly reasonable thing to do to "open up more builds", lmao.

I mean the guy takes the whole spec MOSTLY for that one trait and then argues that "it's not that strong". At the same time he'll then try to tell you that "you don't understand how useful and strong that trait is" like he's some kind of innovative prodigy that discovered a secret trait that nobody knows about. Seriously, both of these kept comming from one person depending on what argument he needed an answer for. And that's pretty much tl;dr of this whole thread.

 

 

>Have you ever played non-Discipline warrior build in WvW or in PvP, **where you need to swap weapons to adjust to situation as fast as possible?**

>**WvW/PvP? 99% are all Discipline builds.**

>(...)

>You should play and feel both Discipline and non-Discipline builds in WvW/PvP to see how drastic the difference is. And I am not even exaggerating.

>(...)[wow, no shit^ :scream: ]

>Then why is it that vast majority of builds used in PvP/WvW include Discipline traitline?

>(...)

>The whole change is about that if you use non-Discipline build, you are **not gimping yourself by not having Fast Hands anymore.**

>(...)

>**The trait is not OP, you are just exaggerating while being ignorant** what would happen if ANet ever nerfs it.

 

 

All quotes come from early posts of this thread from the same person. (cryorion) Could easly include more AND from more users, but fuck me if I'll read through this pile of garbage again :D

 

 

And btw, as a small bonus, some of these guys don't even understand that 5 second swap is a massive buff to any class, not just warrior, because of how the game's mechanics work.

>Why is it that Discipline builds are played WAY MORE than non-Discipline builds (especially PvP/WvW)? Is it because Fast Hands are too strong? Or is it because warrior functions much better with 5 seconds weapon swap cooldown?

 

Sure, the 5s weapon swap is just strong because of warrior's playstyle, not because it's a stupidly strong trait, ok :sleeping:

[cryorion.9532]

Fast Hands minor trait becoming baseline surely creates heated discussion. In a different thread, there was too much discussion not based on precise and accurate examples to support many claims.

 

The point of this thread is to discuss excat situations, builds and trait combinations/synergies which could result in creation of builds too strong/broken for nowadays standards, therefore increasing powercreep. For discussing why this change should/shouldn't be implemented, check the other thread (but be aware that some people there, who argue against FH baseline, are unable to provide exact and accurate examples to support their claims).

 

Making Fast Hands baseline is meant to be an alternative to improve non-Discipline builds, instead of buffing multiple traits/traitlines directly. This does not mean other traits/traitlines will not need additional improvement anymore.

There would be new minor trait in Discipline traitline. How much would that trait improve Discipline builds depends on how strong the trait would be. In order to avoid Discipline builds becoming stronger than they are now (and therefore not increasing powercreep), the trait has to be insignificant. Feel free to give suggestions.

___

**Possible traitline combinations (excluding Discipline) are:**

___

* Strength Arms Defense

* Strength Arms Tactics

* Strength Defense Tactics

* Arms Defense Tactics

___

* Strength Arms Spellbreaker

* Strength Defense Spellbreaker

* Strength Tactics Spellbreaker

* Arms Defense Spellbreaker

* Arms Tactics Spellbreaker

* Defense Tactics Spellbreaker

___

* Strength Arms Berserker

* Strength Defense Berserker

* Strength Tactics Berserker

* Arms Defense Berserker

* Arms Tactics Berserker

* Defense Tactics Berserker

___

Now this is the part when many people might think that with 5 seconds weapon swap, all those builds would be suddenly miraculously stronger than current meta/competetive builds

or straight broken and cause huge powercreep. The point of this thread is to discuss those builds in detail, why do people think so.

 

**Keep in mind that all those builds are missing all Discipline traits (except Fast Hands).**

 

The most important ones are:

 

* Versatile Rage - Gain adrenaline on weapon swap.

* Warrior's Sprint - Run faster while wielding melee weapons, and deal increased damage while you have swiftness. Movement skills break immobilization when used.

* Doubled Standards - Unique Banner effects applied to you are stronger. Gain swiftness when you summon or pick up a banner.

* Brawler's Recovery - Remove conditions when you swap weapons.

* Versatile Power - Gain might on weapon swap. Burst skills recharge 15% faster.

* Axe Mastery - Gain ferocity. Gain additional ferocity for each axe you are wielding. Axe skills gain reduced recharge and grant adrenaline when critically striking.

* Burst Mastery - Burst skills deal more damage, grant swiftness, and restore a portion of adrenaline spent.

___

Feel free to pick any of those builds and discuss their trait synergies, how 5 second weapon swap would improve their performance

or how they would be too strong, surpassing all current meta/competetive builds.

[sneakytails.5629]

Yeah traitlines are important, but so are other things. I would even argue more important.

 

1. What about weapons? You dont think they are important to a build, or how they react with certain traits might matter?

2. Did we really get build diversity after baseline fast hands if everyone just grabs a Greatsword and X/Shield anyways? (I am guessing in the competitive game modes most will do exactly that)

 

You would have to get real weapon changes (never mentioned), serious skill re-balancing (that includes nerfs to popular skills which most would reject) and meaningful changes to Berserker (when?) to even HOPE to see build diversity. Do you really see all that happening along with base-line fast hands?

 

The final factor are the players themselves. They will always gravitate towards the most powerful weapons, skills, and trait combinations. I dont see many competitive players dropping GS even if they had a 2 second weapon swap on a non-disc build.

 

I dont believe that baseline Fast-Hands by itself leads to as much build diversity as you are claiming. Too much has to change first.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> Yeah traitlines are important, but so are other things. I would even argue more important.

>

> 1. What about weapons? You dont think they are important to a build, or how they react with certain traits might matter?

 

It's safer to add baseline fasthands than have hammer/mace ignore stability or strip stability or have a 30% attack speed increase so it can "function" without it..

 

And would you rather have Killshot be baseline unblockable? That might be problematic. I think being able to be pidgeonholed into signet of might + signet of fury is balanced enough for an Arms Defense Berserker gunflame build for example.

 

> 2. Did we really get build diversity after baseline fast hands if everyone just grabs a Greatsword and X/Shield anyways? (I am guessing in the competitive game modes most will do exactly that)

 

The fact that non-discipline builds will have fake-out potential and be able to switch into GS or maybe Axe/Shield more often will help in the LEAST CATASTROPHIC WAY.

 

Non-discipline builds exist because of elite specs, (Arms/Def/Berserker) (Arms/Def/Spellbreaker) (Str/Def/Spellbreaker) and needs a SMALL push. Baseline fasthands is really the least catastrophic way to give these builds a small push. I suppose it's one way to make non-discipline defense builds tolerable from what I'm implying at the cost of using Rune of the Lynx or flat out losing mobility.

 

People already contradicted themselves by saying "why add it when discipline builds will still be stronger" therefore they already admitted to themselves that a non-discipline build won't prove powercreep. Like why do we need to touch the already "good" discipline builds when we can just keep discipline the same way as is by putting a non-OP trait, but make other builds tolerable to play by allowing the same fake out potential and ability to switch a reliable DPS weapon more often instead of getting stuck in Hammer/Mace for 9 seconds (which are bad dodge baits BUT have good utility for balance purposes) and Rifle (which can't switch to a weapon that can cleave if you're stuck into it for 9 seconds)

 

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/70405/which-is-currently-the-most-balanced-class-in-the-game/p1

 

Also with a 5 second weapon swap? Most balanced class in the game.

 

Reckless dodge and BC is stupid and will need a nerf, yes. But outside of Reckless dodge builds, you ACTUALLY believe there is powercreep? Are you sure it's because you're not a garbage player who doesn't know how to counter anything else Warrior does?

 

People are scared over nothing, it's pathetic. It will probably be in a big patch and reckless dodge/endurance on might/BC might get nerfed anyways.

 

What you should be scared off are people who say "nerf discipline buff other traits" or "lets make Warrior weapons playable without fast hands" because THAT is POWERCREEP LOL. Baseline fasthands + non-OP replacement trait > any of those fail suggestions.

 

Seriously, people who say "it is powercreep" without real application of what would happen are snowflake teenagers who are scared of "real arguments"

 

[BlackTruth.6813]

Also on topic:

 

Gunflame Arms Defense Berserker vs. Gunflame Arms Discipline Berserker

 

The defense version is more survivable, BUT it has less adrenaline gain and you potentially lose even Rune of the Scholar and Warrior sprint. Those are big trade-offs for a Rifle build that might be able to stand on a point for example. Gunflame hitting from 8ks (disc) to 6ks (def) is big as well, people may not have to dodge your shots anymore, but not being able to be stuck in rifle for so long on a defense build might actually be helpful for counter pressure (fighting back) or just flat out defending yourself.

 

Non-discipline gunflame getting the fake-out potential (weapon swap cancel something that will obviously miss > dodge bait mind game > switch to a melee weapon) of the discipline version ALSO helps out with mind games and overall buffs non-disc version in the least cancerous way.

 

You lose rampage by going Signet of Rage, so the trade-offs are still really intense assuming baseline fasthands happen.

[Yannir.4132]

Discipline is not mandatory JUST because of Fast Hands. I'd argue that in competitive modes Warrior's Sprint is actually the more important trait in the line.

If you play other classes than just warrior, you won't even notice you're missing Fast Hands but losing the options that you get from Warrior's Sprint you will most definitely notice. Druids and Thieves suddenly become your worst nightmare with their Immob spam.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Seriously, people who say "it is powercreep" without real application of what would happen are snowflake teenagers who are scared of "real arguments"

>

The problem is that this isn't an experiment. Things don't get implemented to see if something is true or not. Speaking of 'real arguments', I have yet to see one for implementing FH baseline that actually makes any sense so ... feel free to indulge. The burden of proof to show it's needed is on the people suggesting it should happen. These mind games where people talk about some build being better because of FH don't show FH baseline is needed.

 

So, does it make you a snowflake teenager because you won't address the "real argument" that giving people FH baseline will make Discipline more attractive as a choice, not less?

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Yannir.4132" said:

> Discipline is not mandatory JUST because of Fast Hands. I'd argue that in competitive modes Warrior's Sprint is actually the more important trait in the line.

> If you play other classes than just warrior, you won't even notice you're missing Fast Hands but losing the options that you get from Warrior's Sprint you will most definitely notice. Druids and Thieves suddenly become your worst nightmare with their Immob spam.

 

You should be fine with shake it off and/or berserker stance vs. immobs tbh.

 

A non-discipline build with baseline fast hands should still be able to deal with immob. And for gunflame's case? To make defense work on certain things such as gunflame; If you're asking why not just go Defense Discipline Berserker, then you will get block spammed to death and a non-crit gunflame is so worthless (no arms = gunflame is RNG and block spammable) as an example of why builds without discipline NEEDS a small push so maybe we can have an Arms Defense Berserker spec.

 

The class is at a point where the trees may not need much anymore other than baseline fast hands (although tactics might need something better, something that isn't just about about shouts [i would prefer that rousing resilience doesn't get moved into tactics])

 

Fast hands should not be discipline exclusive, other trees are actually borderline viable and need a small push. Baseline FH would be a start.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> Fast hands should not be discipline exclusive ....

 

... and we all can't wait for the non-trivial reason to say why.

 

I don't think making FH baseline is a balance issue at all, so trying to justify FH baseline with "it's not breaking anything" doesn't make sense in the first place. The problem is related to how Anet expects players to interact with the trait system to make meaningful choices; simply giving people the things they are supposed to be making those choices to get diminishes the value of the trait system, especially if the best reason presented to do it is "it doesn't break anything".

[Yannir.4132]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> You should be fine with shake it off and/or berserker stance vs. immobs tbh.

 

If there is also a necromancer on the map, using either of those skills just to clear immobs is just asking for trouble. Any condi class actually.

[cryorion.9532]

**For discussing why this change should/shouldn't be implemented, check the other thread.**

I expected more replies as people claimed that FH baseline would increase powercreep to the sky.