Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> > > >

> > > > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

> >

> > Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping.

>

> Actually Arms was originally a crit strikes tree as well.

>

> The unblockable trait already works with power builds, and the 100% burst on crit is actually nice to make Eviscerate and Gunflame "borderline" viable.

>

> Making it full condition when berserker is better for that feels moot.

 

OK whathever ... then give me crit love. I don't care. My point still stands. If you want to improve a traitline, you buff the stuff that traitline is about, not hand me effects I can't take advantage of.

 

Your biggest problem is that you want to focus on some minutia detail ... the big picture here is fixing traitlines isn't about just randomly handing out baseline buffs that have nothing to do with the theme of the baseline. That thinking is crazy.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> > > > >

> > > > > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

> > >

> > > Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping.

> >

> > Actually Arms was originally a crit strikes tree as well.

> >

> > The unblockable trait already works with power builds, and the 100% burst on crit is actually nice to make Eviscerate and Gunflame "borderline" viable.

> >

> > Making it full condition when berserker is better for that feels moot.

>

> OK whathever ... then give me crit love. I don't care. My point still stands. If you want to improve a traitline, you buff the stuff that traitline is about, not hand me effects I can't take advantage of.

 

Well.. it's much harder to make specific traitlines attractive by themselves. And if we do that, then discipline builds might become stronger when you swap out STR for Arms for example. That's another thing, so really it's hard for me to discard baseline FH because then we end up buffing the already decent existing discipline builds that don't need to be touched.

 

This is why it is very hard to discard baseline FH, is because buffing other traitlines and keeping things as is might incur more powercreep that is actually bad.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > >

> > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> > > > >

> > > > > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

> > > >

> > > > 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

> > >

> > > You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it. Absolutely nothing stops Anet from nerfing anything they want, especially if people are going to argue that Discipline is SO good that it degrades the choice of other traitlines.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > There is a small chance, (maybe it's good right now after the mass layoffs) that ANET will do something right. We can mourn AFTER they do something stupid.

>

> Maybe ... but don't sit there and pretend there is some rulebook they play by that adheres to your sense of what they can and can't do. Anet is definitely not going to do more work than they have to to fix a problem ... **and if that problem is Discipline is too much of a go-to traitline, it's going to see nerfed,** even if every player thinks it shouldn't.

 

Funny enough that's exactly what I said in the last thread about base line Fast Hands:

 

If people keep talking about how strong Discipline is and how Fast Hands needs to be base line for other trait lines to become viable, Arenanet is simply going to nerf Discipline. Interesting enough, the thread went quite after that. I've tried to explain this issue here, but some how people are very focused on making sure that even the last developer at Arenanet realizes: Discipline is very strong, nerf it... I mean give us base line Fast Hands.

 

I really enjoy playing my warrior. I'm fine with shelving it for a while though once Arenanet responds.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > > > And the thread got merged, do you know why? EVEN ANET KNOWS pointing out builds that might be aids is RELEVANT TO THE THREAD.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Cut it out with your pathetic "burden of proof" kitten, just admit that you cannot find real arguments.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Might want to check that mirror you were just talking into. What you just said applies beautifully to both sides. Unfortunately burden of proof always lies with the side which demands change. I'm fine with settling on ignoring this issue since I know Arenanet is not going to roll out baseline Fast Hands.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I've tried to explain to people why, I don't care if anyone listens. Smart warrior players will give useful feedback, not so smart players will stick to their pipe dreams and complain years in when the change they want hasn't been implemented or leave the game. I'm fine with any of the outcome

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > And you still haven't found a "real alternative" other than "make Warrior be able to function without baseline fast hands" and not back it up with something specific.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I don't need to find an alternative (and it seems no one i this thread on either side tries to find one too). I don't see base line Fast Hands as a solution. I see a far to strong Discipline tree which needs rework though.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On the contrary, I think base line Fast Hands and the utility it brings would cause severe nerfs to warrior on many levels. Something most people are willfully ignoring here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > You realize that other classes work without Fast Hands because they have instant casts, pets, phantasms, and burst mitigation for team mates right? Warrior doesn't need any of that, OTHER CLASSES can have it for an identity. Warrior's identity is fine as is (A class that relies on stow weapon or weapon swap fake-outs for a high skill cap, no instant cast, no pets, etc [just being an honest class with no pet or instant cast garbage])

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Every single class would benefit from Fast Hands, thiefs and revenant even more than warriors. So no, this is again wild speculation and no argument on the warriors side.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > We didn't "simply demand it" we SUGGESTED it before ANET does their own thing. And when ANET does their own thing that no one asked for? That's a lot worse.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have no problem with suggestions. I do have a problem with this religious zealous near fanatical defense of a suggestion without considering that focusing on other approaches would be far more productive and more likely than this change.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > Literally, you're almost tolerable but you can't think of a specific idea that would make your premise work. You would legit have to give Warrior instant cast or some stupid kitten. And you at least agreed to me that your route could be A LOT MORE EVIL, but I want to hear a "specific alternative" that isn't broken or useless because MAYBE, just MAYBE you are truly better than any of the other guys who counter-argued against it but failed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I agreed that any change could be far worse. I also said that changing 1 of 9 classes on a fundamental level would cause even greater issues. Look at how Mirage and its unique dodge causes problems (and it;s an elite specialization). That's the type of change you are in for balance wise. I seriously doubt Arenanet is even going to go remotely in that direction, at most with an elite specialization and even that is a very big IF.

> > > > >

> > > > > 1.) YOU CANNOT nerf discipline right now.

> > > >

> > > > You know what is funny ... I've seen Anet nerf things that cannot be nerfed right now LOTS of times. So maybe you don't understand how they function. Maybe you shouldn't impose your own ideas of how the game works onto the people that develop it. Absolutely nothing stops Anet from nerfing anything they want, especially if people are going to argue that Discipline is SO good that it degrades the choice of other traitlines.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > There is a small chance, (maybe it's good right now after the mass layoffs) that ANET will do something right. We can mourn AFTER they do something stupid.

> >

> > Maybe ... but don't sit there and pretend there is some rulebook they play by that adheres to your sense of what they can and can't do. Anet is definitely not going to do more work than they have to to fix a problem ... **and if that problem is Discipline is too much of a go-to traitline, it's going to see nerfed,** even if every player thinks it shouldn't.

>

> Funny enough that's exactly what I said in the last thread about base line Fast Hands:

>

> If people keep talking about how strong Discipline is and how Fast Hands needs to be base line for other trait lines to become viable, Arenanet is simply going to nerf Discipline. Interesting enough, the thread went quite after that. I've tried to explain this issue here, but some how people are very focused on making sure that even the last developer at Arenanet realizes: Discipline is very strong, nerf it... I mean give us base line Fast Hands.

>

> I really enjoy playing my warrior. I'm fine with shelving it for a while though once Arenanet responds.

 

Again, there is a small chance that ANET will do something right for once. It will be TOO LATE, but there is a chance (because of mass layoffs. Less people in the company = it's easier to change things around to something more favorable)

 

We should only complain when they do something stupid but so far.. I want to say ANET has improved. That's why I'm not so paranoid just yet.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

> > > >

> > > > Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping.

> > >

> > > Actually Arms was originally a crit strikes tree as well.

> > >

> > > The unblockable trait already works with power builds, and the 100% burst on crit is actually nice to make Eviscerate and Gunflame "borderline" viable.

> > >

> > > Making it full condition when berserker is better for that feels moot.

> >

> > OK whathever ... then give me crit love. I don't care. My point still stands. If you want to improve a traitline, you buff the stuff that traitline is about, not hand me effects I can't take advantage of.

>

> Well.. it's much harder to make specific traitlines attractive by themselves. And if we do that, then discipline builds might become stronger when you swap out STR for Arms for example. That's another thing, so really it's hard for me to discard baseline FH because then we end up buffing the already decent existing discipline builds that don't need to be touched.

>

> This is why it is very hard to discard baseline FH, is because buffing other traitlines and keeping things as is might incur more powercreep that is actually bad.

 

And yet, Anet does that all the time ... so that argument, while maybe has some truth (it can't ever be proven mind you), doesn't really match the reality of how the game is changed. Again, do not impose your own ideas about how things work onto Anet. They do their own thing. The BEST we can do is illustrate a problem that exists and discuss if it's problem or not; they will decide how to fix it. The BEST we can do is suggest ways to fix said problems, not assume Anet can or can't do something that we feel isn't right.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > > > > > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

> > > > >

> > > > > Certainly not by giving me access to FH ... I mean, arms is condi theme ... so buff it's condi stuff. Or give more weapons condi love. I mean, what's the point of this question? if I'm choosing Arms, I could give a RATS BEHIND about getting 5 second swapping.

> > > >

> > > > Actually Arms was originally a crit strikes tree as well.

> > > >

> > > > The unblockable trait already works with power builds, and the 100% burst on crit is actually nice to make Eviscerate and Gunflame "borderline" viable.

> > > >

> > > > Making it full condition when berserker is better for that feels moot.

> > >

> > > OK whathever ... then give me crit love. I don't care. My point still stands. If you want to improve a traitline, you buff the stuff that traitline is about, not hand me effects I can't take advantage of.

> >

> > Well.. it's much harder to make specific traitlines attractive by themselves. And if we do that, then discipline builds might become stronger when you swap out STR for Arms for example. That's another thing, so really it's hard for me to discard baseline FH because then we end up buffing the already decent existing discipline builds that don't need to be touched.

> >

> > This is why it is very hard to discard baseline FH, is because buffing other traitlines and keeping things as is might incur more powercreep that is actually bad.

>

> And yet, Anet does that all the time ... so that argument, while maybe is true, doesn't really match the reality of how the game is changed. Again, do not impose your own ideas about how things work onto Anet. They do their own thing. The BEST we can do is illustrate a problem that exists; they will decide how to fix it.

 

But reality does change when it can, because ANET has been doing smart things so far (mirage dodge down to 0.75 seconds, etc)

[Obtena.7952]

The n = 1 case doesn't not prove that Anet doesn't do what they want, how they want it. The history is there that suggests Anet will fix traits in traitlines to maintain the idea that players make choices for how they want to play by choosing traits.

 

Again, we don't agree on what's right here, so do not appeal to the idea that what you believe is on the side of 'correctness' to imply everyone that doesn't agree wtih you is wrong. My opinion on what Anet will do is based on history of the game, not what I think is right or wrong.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> The n = 1 case doesn't not prove that Anet doesn't do what they want, how they want it. The history is there that suggests Anet will fix traits in traitlines to maintain the idea that players make choices for how they want to play by choosing traits.

>

> Again, we don't agree on what's right here, so do not appeal to the idea that what you believe is on the side of 'correctness' to imply everyone that doesn't agree wtih you is wrong.

 

Be that is it may that I'm a jerk to most people, but if I can say something that might sway ANET into doing something right for once, then I'll do it. And even if my whole idea isn't implemented but ANET does something right, then I'm all for it.

 

I would prefer to not have instant cast, pets, z-axis teleports added on Warrior either is one of my premises as well.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> No, it's not obvious and even if it was, that's not a problem that needs to be fixed because this game is designed in a way that results in optimal builds for various situations. If Discipline is TOO optimal for all builds, that's an argument for nerfing it, not spreading out its love.

 

If non-Discipline builds were less useless, as you imply, we would definitely see much more of their use.

It is not only that Discipline traitline (including Fast Hands) is very good, it is also that non-Discipline builds are useless, impractical, underperforming.

I am sorry, but if you really think that non-Discipline builds are not in a need of buffs, are not underperforming, then I have to say it again, your knowledge about warrior class it not good enough.

The only time I would be ok with nerfing Discipline is if there was big nerfing across the whole game, all professions and their specs. Reducing powercreep greatly.

 

You cannot deny, that 5 second weapon swap has been with warrior since the game release, 2012 and it has been very important part of profession and all its elite specializations since forever. Any change to this would be VERY drastical and all competetive builds which are time-tested around the 5 second weapon swap (and think of all people used to its rotations and its playstyle) would be significantly nerfed and all that only to promote underperforming builds. You don't seem to understand how huge the change would be for all, most used warrior builds. Also this is why I called you ignorant even before.

 

"_this game is designed in a way that results in optimal builds for various situations"_

FH baseline would not make all non-Discipline builds miraculously on par with current Discipline builds. Further adjustments may be required.

You say it as if all those 16 possible traitline combinations would cover all possible situations (the only difference compared to what we have today in game, is basically 5 second weapon swap - being more adaptable to situations, being more flexible and being able to use weapon swap sigils more effectively).

 

I see Fast Hands baseline to distinguish warrior from other professions as weapon master even more, with 5 second weapon swap. Something truly unique compared to other professions. If this baseline trait doesn't fit profession the most, then I don't know which one else. Not to confuse this with now wanting free baseline trait just because. There is big reason why it is exactly Fast Hands and it is not only that "it fits the profession theme the most". Just saying.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > No, it's not obvious and even if it was, that's not a problem that needs to be fixed because this game is designed in a way that results in optimal builds for various situations. If Discipline is TOO optimal for all builds, that's an argument for nerfing it, not spreading out its love.

>

> If non-Discipline builds were less useless, as you imply, we would definitely see much more of their use.

 

So that is adjusted many ways ... if non-discipline traits were better, or if Discipline traits were not as good as they are now. Again, do not assume that baseline FH is THE solution to whatever problem you are trying to fix.

 

The fact is that you don't have a way to measure how much builds are used, so don't state things like you know it for a fact. The other fact is that how much builds are used or not isn't a problem. It doesn't matter how much FH baseline would put builds on par with ... the fact is that there is wide range in performance and there isn't a reason to change where builds fall in that heirarchy.

 

You keep saying all the things FH would do ... but those things aren't relevant. Making warrior EVEN more weapon master is not something that NEEDS to happen, for example. If you want to play the 'ultimate' weapon master warrior build, you can choose Discipline IF you think that FH is such a defining weapon master thing to do. You aren't going to argue around the idea that Anet WANTS players to make meaningul trait choices to get a specific flavour play.

 

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> But, but but...... After writing that you "need to write about specific build examples to have a valid argument", he said that "ANET CANT NERF IT!" and you're saying that... that's not a valid reason? Not even when he hand-picked single skills that he deems right to get nerfed?! But then it's almost like he uses double standards depending on who's writing?! :dizzy:

 

You realize you are not adding anything to discussion, but yet you say to me "Stop embarrassing yourself". Oh the irony. Funny because I got my post deleted when I said exactly and only that to Melandru in different thread. I wonder if moderators are going to read through this all and do the same :)

May I ask, what is your experience with warrior class?

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > No, it's not obvious and even if it was, that's not a problem that needs to be fixed because this game is designed in a way that results in optimal builds for various situations. If Discipline is TOO optimal for all builds, that's an argument for nerfing it, not spreading out its love.

> >

> > If non-Discipline builds were less useless, as you imply, we would definitely see much more of their use.

>

> So that is adjusted many ways ... if non-discipline traits were better, or if Discipline traits were not as good as they are now. Again, do not assume that baseline FH is THE solution to whatever problem you are trying to fix.

>

> The fact is that you don't have a way to measure how much builds are used, so don't state things like you know it for a fact. The other fact is that how much builds are used or not isn't a problem. It doesn't matter how much FH baseline would put builds on par with ... the fact is that there is wide range in performance and there isn't a reason to change where builds fall in that heirarchy.

>

 

Ehm, what? Whole thread assumes FH baseline to be solution to improving non-Discipline builds :)

We argue around FH baseline alternative way of buffing after all.

 

If non-Discipline traits were better = improved/buffed builds = alternative A.

If non-Discipline builds got FH baseline = improved/buffed builds = alternative B.

 

"The fact is that you don't have a way to measure how much builds are used, so don't state things like you know it for a fact."

Aha, so that is why everyone is playing Discipline builds? You think this assumption is based on "I just pulled it out of my butt"?

How do you explain that all competetive builds have Discipline? We talk about end-game builds, competetive builds, builds that are used the most.

"Because Discipline is just so good"? = that is why most people use it. Because it makes warriors builds competetive. If you can't realize this, you clearly don't know that much about the profession. It is self-explanatory. But yet you mention nerfs instead, even though it would be huge impact on every competetive build.

 

It starts to look like an attempt to turn this thread into nerfing warrior instead of fixing what is wrong with it. Tinfoil hat on: Obtena wants warriors to be nerfed so they are easy kill for him/her. :open_mouth: (just kidding, or am I really?)

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> You keep saying all the things FH would do ... but those things aren't relevant. Making warrior EVEN more weapon master is not something that NEEDS to happen, for example. If you want to play the 'ultimate' weapon master warrior build, you can choose Discipline IF you think that FH is such a defining weapon master thing to do. You aren't going to argue around the idea that Anet WANTS players to make meaningul trait choices to get a specific flavour play.

 

Many things didn't need to happen. And they did.

It all depends on how Anet wants to direct the profession development. You, neither I can't decide about that. I am just arguing that FH baseline wouldn't cause outbreak as you say and in fact, it would improve those builds, unite them across whole profession, when it comes to most rotations, weapon skill usage and being flexible with them. But again, instead of looking at it from warrior point of view, you mention nerfs while being ignorant to repercussions. Or is that not true?

You forgot one thing. Meaningful trait choices would be still a thing. You want improved 5 second weapon swap? Go with Discipline and get additional benefits of weapon swapping - thus more discipline :)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > No, it's not obvious and even if it was, that's not a problem that needs to be fixed because this game is designed in a way that results in optimal builds for various situations. If Discipline is TOO optimal for all builds, that's an argument for nerfing it, not spreading out its love.

> > >

> > > If non-Discipline builds were less useless, as you imply, we would definitely see much more of their use.

> >

> > So that is adjusted many ways ... if non-discipline traits were better, or if Discipline traits were not as good as they are now. Again, do not assume that baseline FH is THE solution to whatever problem you are trying to fix.

> >

> > The fact is that you don't have a way to measure how much builds are used, so don't state things like you know it for a fact. The other fact is that how much builds are used or not isn't a problem. It doesn't matter how much FH baseline would put builds on par with ... the fact is that there is wide range in performance and there isn't a reason to change where builds fall in that heirarchy.

> >

>

> Ehm, what? Whole thread assumes FH baseline to be solution to improving non-Discipline builds :)

 

and nothing I've seen indicates all non-Discipline builds need improvement, that FH will do that or that it's even the best way to make those improvements.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > No, it's not obvious and even if it was, that's not a problem that needs to be fixed because this game is designed in a way that results in optimal builds for various situations. If Discipline is TOO optimal for all builds, that's an argument for nerfing it, not spreading out its love.

> > >

> > > If non-Discipline builds were less useless, as you imply, we would definitely see much more of their use.

> >

> > So that is adjusted many ways ... if non-discipline traits were better, or if Discipline traits were not as good as they are now. Again, do not assume that baseline FH is THE solution to whatever problem you are trying to fix.

> >

> > The fact is that you don't have a way to measure how much builds are used, so don't state things like you know it for a fact. The other fact is that how much builds are used or not isn't a problem. It doesn't matter how much FH baseline would put builds on par with ... the fact is that there is wide range in performance and there isn't a reason to change where builds fall in that heirarchy.

> >

>

> Ehm, what? Whole thread assumes FH baseline to be solution to improving non-Discipline builds :)

 

That is a very idiotic premise to start on and a shallow assumption. The chance of Fast Hands magically solving all the issues warrior has in other trait lines (which without any change would see literally not any more play for optimized builds because Discipline would still be the strongest pick) is 0. I was engaging in this thread assuming people wanted Fast Hands knowing fully well that a ton of balance around it would be needed. If this is the extent of thought put in, I could have saved myself a lot of time.

 

If that premise is what this thread is about, it could have ended on page 1 with the simple answer: no, that alone will not suffice and balance around making Fast Hands base line is needed. Close thread.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Great... I hoped to have some proper discussion with people that actually know warrior class,

> without arguing with ignorant people.

> It seems that official forums is just bad for such conversation.

> People claim that FH would cause powercreep, but suddenly they don't mention exact examples, which exact thing would be too strong, etc.

> If there will be new competetive builds, that is good, that is what we want by making FH baseline. Build variety.

>

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > So:

> > - Any build with discipline become automatically stronger even if the trait that replace _Fast hand_ is "insignificant".

> > - Any CC heavy build that didn't previously use discipline become automatically stronger and players hate facing CC heavy builds (def/stren/SB for example see it's ability to CC shot throught the roof and this mean it also see it's ability to "break" boon increase as much)

> > - Any build that capitalize heavily on "on burst" effects can potentially run out of balance due to Fast hand becoming baseline.

> >

> > NB.: The simple fact that you feel that it would be better if it was baseline mean that it will "increase powercreep to the sky". "Powercreep" doesn't necessarily mean that it does deal higher damage. Powercreep mean that the profession enjoy a "free" increase on various good (included: utility, CC, sustain or damage). Fast hand being baseline automatically make weapon CC and utility skills more accessible which result in this powercreep that you enjoy to deny with all your might. The point is that FH baseline result in a global overhaul of the core warrior's access to it's weapon skills which in itself is a case of powercreep.

>

> Another ignorant player that doesn't realize that heavy cc builds that warrior has are countered heavily by high stability uptime, low cooldown stunbreaks and even passive stunbreaks from traits nowadays in game. Try your amazing heavy cc build against competent players/zerg with 35908353 firebrands, etc.

> This is exactly the outcome, how all non-Discipline builds would be improved. Because warrior would be able to utilitze weapons much better, instead of direct traitline buffs. This is an alternative. What do you think, how else is going FH baseline improve all non-Discipline builds? That traits in other traitlines are suddenly not going to suck without even touching them?

> If there will be new competetive builds, that is good, that is what we want by making FH baseline. Build variety. If this is powercreep to you, then literally everything buffed from now on (and that has ever been buffed) was powercreep, thus nothing should be buffed from now on.

> Try to also read between the lines a bit.

 

So you ask for discussion and when you got discussion you hide yourself behind a: "you are ignorant!". (which should have been considered as "offensive" by the moderation when they merged the thread, but whatever)

 

Your argument about high stability uptime died when stability changed from stacking in duration to stacking in "intensity". If anything, some professions awfully lack any stability uptime which make heavy CC builds a lot more relevant than what you make it. Rampage probably wouldn't be an issue if there wasn't CCs everywhere on the skills.

 

Being improved mean being powercreeped. No escape there. Do non-discipline builds need to gain more access to their weapon utility skills? No. Would that possibly create imbalances on the long term? Yes.

 

And no... your vain dream of seeing new competitive build wouldn't be supported by _fast hand_ baseline. The impact sure would be great on non discpline build but not to the point of making them competitive against the discipline builds. Your suggestion jus powercreep the whole profession without changing the real strengths of the discipline traitline. FH existing or not, I'd still use discipline for the axe trait (because I love the axe feel). FH existing or not some people would still use discipline for _warrior's sprint_ because +25% movement speed is so much more pleasant than +0% when you're running around.

 

NB.: I've long read between the lines. It say: "If you do not agree with me then don't answer this thread"

[melandru.3876]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > > ANET CAN do something right for once, I am prepared for things like Reckless dodge, bull's charge, and rampage NERFED TO BALANCE. There is moderation that can be accomplished.

> >

> >

> > I love how FH baseline is THE answer ... as long as all this other stuff gets nerfed too.

> >

> > If Anet has to make ALL these kinds of changes to make FH baseline ... then seems to me that it's actually easier to just buff the non-Discipline lines after all, preserving meaningful choices in Discipline at the same time.

> >

>

> Okay, give me an example, lets be productive for once. How do you make Arms attractive then?

 

lol i allready gave a complelty reworked arms trait line, but no one ever bother to read it

so long the "arguments"

 

lemme find my own post, and i'll quite it just for you

[melandru.3876]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take

>

> t1-warrior sprint, both pve and pvp meta you can't juist ignore immo cleanses and/or +7% dmg modifier

> t2-double standards, pve meta warrior needs all the bosts it can get to compensate it's own lower dps

> t2-brawlers recovery, no warrior runs without this

> t3-axe mastery, pve meta and one of the largest dps increases

> t3-burst mastery, pvp meta

>

> both in pve, or pvp i can't see myself without those traits at all.

>

> discipline and strenght are, and should, allways be taken regardless of baseline fast hands

>

> the issue is the other traitlines like arms are underperforming and not worth taking i'd so very much see arms become a duelist traitline, while strenght becomes the powerhouse traitline.

>

> some suggestions:

>

> t1 minor -furious burst: using a burst skill grants fury. fury increases ferocity by 150

> t1-opportunist: cast lesser throw bola upon disabling, or hitting a disabled target. (4 seconds immobilize, no more fury 16 secs cd if traited with peak performance)

>

> t2 minor- deep strikes: deal increased damage on target for each unique condition it suffers (0.5 or 1% per condition)

> t2-unsuspecting foe: reduce bonus crit chance from 50% to 10-15%. add +25% increased damage to disabled targets.

>

> t3 minor -bloodlust: merge the effect with furious,gain a stacking damage buff upon succesfully critting a target suffering from the bleed condition (1% condi and power dmg per stack, max stacks 10 duration 5 secs)

> t3- burst precision: upon succesfully landing a burst skill, gain 50 precision and 50 ferocity for 10 seconds (stackable to 5 stacks)

>

> ^ that would make me pick arms

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

^^^^ lol it was even on the first page, and the only reply it got was from our friend cryorion.9532 who only replied to the first line, complelty ignoring all the rest, then complains about people not reading his wall of texts and answering to it all....irony

 

do i DEMAND all of these changes i made? no

even 1 or two of those would allready be a step in the right direction.

 

dagger/shield + greatsword

 

str/arms/spellbreaker with my variant of "burst precision" and "opportunist" would make for a mean build, without baseline fast hands

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoeRjMdQZH25BGeApIWICMjAQEonhHkPyP5jHQDY5B-jpBHQBB8EAIujAAAOEAfY/h8VGohPAAA

 

you would get:

-more soft cc and opportunity to land your bursts due to "opportunist (lesser throw bolas) can't dodge if you can't move

-more raw stats from burst precision (would stack with attackers insight), making arms warrior even pve valid

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> That is a very idiotic premise to start on and a shallow assumption. The chance of Fast Hands magically solving all the issues warrior has in other trait lines (which without any change would see literally not any more play for optimized builds because Discipline would still be the strongest pick) is 0. I was engaging in this thread assuming people wanted Fast Hands knowing fully well that a ton of balance around it would be needed. If this is the extent of thought put in, I could have saved myself a lot of time.

>

> If that premise is what this thread is about, it could have ended on page 1 with the simple answer: no, that alone will not suffice and balance around making Fast Hands base line is needed. Close thread.

 

I wrote many times that FH baseline would not miraculously fix/make all non-Discipline builds on par with current Discipline builds. Further adjustments may be required. And we don't need every single non-Discipline build to be optimal or competetive, or even half as good as Discipline build...

The difference between Discipline and non-Discipline build will be lower, uniting all warrior builds, rotation smoothnes, fludity and flexibility.

But then you say that Discipline is too strong, hurr durr, nerf it! Without realizing the repercussions. Only ignornat people would propose nerfs to something that works well and is time-tested, just to promote something that does not work that well. If non-Discipline builds worked well as @"Obtena.7952" says, we would see much higher usage of those builds across the whole game. But we are not.

 

The best thing is that when I want to discuss precise details (since page 1) both you and others avoid that like a vampire avoids cross.

This happens when you have very little knowledge about the profession and you are not able to precisely imagine how exactly and where exactly the change would be significant the most. You and others conveniently and ignorantly call it "powercreep" without going deeper. It is not meant in offensive way as @"Dadnir.5038" states in his/her post. It is just a word to describe someone who is lacking knowledge about something and yet comes here and discuss about the future of the class. And I explained why I am calling you ignorant, so there is a reason for that. If you would be able to provide specific example as I asked since page 1, maybe I would conclude that your profession knowledge is solid for this discussion. Then there would be no reason to call you ignorant.

Unfortunately, from your generalized/vague statements/arguments, I had to conclude that your knowledge is not good enough OR that you are looking at it from biased point of view - basically from other's profession perspective with mentality "If other profession doesn't have this, warrior cannot have it either".

If I was so biased, I wouldn't ask for exact and precise examples and possibly to compromise my statements. I wouldn't try hard to explain, why this change is good for warrior class and not balance-destroying for overall game balance. I want to reason via specifics and detailed profession discussion. I want to discuss how exactly FH baseline would be a good alternative to improve non-Discipline builds and to round whole warrior profession.

 

@"Obtena.7952" keeps saying that FH baseline is breaking meaningful trait choices to get a specific flavour play. So basically that warrior should be restrained to 1 traitline all the time to get that "specific flavour play") because it makes warrior truly effective and enhances class mechanics usage significantly (competetive builds)

but also mentions nerf to it without even poiting out/realizing repercussions.

What about we give non-Discipline builds part of what Discipline can do, without breaking them (if yes, feel free to name precise examples) and thus improving, rounding, unifying warrior profession?

I think the main reason why we are stuck is, that you don't find non-Discipline builds to be lacking, underperforming, weak and you think that it is Discipline traitline that is just too strong and overshadows other traitlines which are fine. If this was true, there would be definitely higher usage of non-Discipline builds. You would see way more people using such builds.

 

When @"Obtena.7952" asked, why I want FH baseline, I told him many times. But his reply is vague and not specific at all. No questions (or way less than from me) to confront my arguments, only statements that are "the only and accepted truth". Basically what he/she said before that I do :) I ask questions and most of them are not answered. And then someone even complains that I "demand" answers.

 

At this point, I am not sure how else can we advance this discussion, if you are not able to go deeper.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> ^^^^ lol it was even on the first page, and the only reply it got was from our friend cryorion.9532 who only replied to the first line, complelty ignoring all the rest, then complains about people not reading his wall of texts and answering to it all....irony

>

> do i DEMAND all of these changes i made? no

> even 1 or two of those would allready be a step in the right direction.

>

> dagger/shield + greatsword

>

> str/arms/spellbreaker with my variant of "burst precision" and "opportunist" would make for a mean build, without baseline fast hands

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoeRjMdQZH25BGeApIWICMjAQEonhHkPyP5jHQDY5B-jpBHQBB8EAIujAAAOEAfY/h8VGohPAAA

>

> you would get:

> -more soft cc and opportunity to land your bursts due to "opportunist (lesser throw bolas) can't dodge if you can't move

> -more raw stats from burst precision (would stack with attackers insight), making arms warrior even pve valid

 

With just a small difference, that you didn't discuss powercreep, but rather that the change would not solve anything. I replied that it would.

And then you suggested alternative way of buffing less used/underperforming traitline. Which is a good thing, but it was not what I wanted to discuss. I wanted to discuss FH baseline alternative.

Do I demand FH baseline? Or do I just argue why and how it would be beneficial for non-Discipline builds and warrior profession?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> But then you say that Discipline is too strong, hurr durr, nerf it! Without realizing the repercussions. Only ignornat people would propose nerfs to something that works well and is time-tested, just to promote something that does not work that well.

 

Yet that is exactly what balance means. Quite literally in its very definition:

> balance

> /ˈbal(ə)ns/

> noun

> noun: balance; plural noun: balances

>

> 1.

> an even distribution of weight enabling someone or something to remain upright and steady.

> "she lost her balance and fell"

> synonyms: stability, equilibrium, steadiness, footing

> "I tripped and lost my balance"

> antonyms: instability

> Sailing

> the ability of a boat to stay on course without adjustment of the rudder.

> 2.

> **a situation in which different elements are equal or in the correct proportions.**

> "the obligations of political balance in broadcasting"

> synonyms: fairness, justice, impartiality, egalitarianism, equal opportunity; More

 

and it is the time tested approach which Arenanet has been using to balance trait lines, skills and classes.

 

So, by its very definition, if balance is desired it would make more sense to buff other trait lines OR nerf Discipline before making Fast Hands base line. Who would have thought.

 

Balance doesn't care about tried and true. It's about balance between different things. In this case, first balance the trait lines against each other, then balance against other classes. The Fast Hands base line idea skips quite a few of those steps and ignores others. It makes less sense than other approaches IF balance is desired.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Cyninja.2954"

Or make FH baseline like with the mesmer. In case of warrior, making underperforming/weaker things closer to what works currently well without breaking them :)

So if Anet nerfs warrior's Fast Hands and Discipline traitline, you think the change wouldn't be big enough? Or it would be big enough that suddenly people start using other traitlines/non-discipline builds more?

Also, please stop pretending that you know what Anet is going to do. You said yourself: "Almost 7 years in and I am often surprised. They do like to shake things up." ;)

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> @"Cyninja.2954"

> Or make FH baseline like with the mesmer. In case of warrior, making underperforming/weaker things closer to what works currently well without breaking them :)

 

Except that is not balance, that is buffing and power creep. By the very act of making Fast Hands base line you are increasing the output of Discipline (gains an additional trait) keeping it as still strongest trait line. While at the same time creating further disparity with other classes by introducing base line 5 second weapon swap for 1 class.

 

Mesmer doesn't have base line Fast Hands. Mirage is an elite specialization. The closest thing mesmer had to this base line was distortion, and that went the way of the Dodo.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> So if Anet nerfs warrior's Fast Hands and Discipline traitline, you think the change wouldn't be big enough? Or it would be big enough that suddenly people start using other traitlines/non-discipline builds more?

 

If they nerf Discipline hard enough, I guarantee you people will start using other trait lines.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Also, please stop pretending that you know what Anet is going to do. You said yourself: "Almost 7 years in and I am often surprised. They do like to shake things up." ;)

 

I don't pretend to know anything. I am pointing out flaws in your argument and logic.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > ^^^^ lol it was even on the first page, and the only reply it got was from our friend cryorion.9532 who only replied to the first line, complelty ignoring all the rest, then complains about people not reading his wall of texts and answering to it all....irony

> >

> > do i DEMAND all of these changes i made? no

> > even 1 or two of those would allready be a step in the right direction.

> >

> > dagger/shield + greatsword

> >

> > str/arms/spellbreaker with my variant of "burst precision" and "opportunist" would make for a mean build, without baseline fast hands

> > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoeRjMdQZH25BGeApIWICMjAQEonhHkPyP5jHQDY5B-jpBHQBB8EAIujAAAOEAfY/h8VGohPAAA

> >

> > you would get:

> > -more soft cc and opportunity to land your bursts due to "opportunist (lesser throw bolas) can't dodge if you can't move

> > -more raw stats from burst precision (would stack with attackers insight), making arms warrior even pve valid

>

> With just a small difference, that you didn't discuss powercreep, but rather that the change would not solve anything. I replied that it would.

> And then you suggested alternative way of buffing less used/underperforming traitline. Which is a good thing, but it was not what I wanted to discuss. I wanted to discuss FH baseline alternative.

> Do I demand FH baseline? Or do I just argue why and how it would be beneficial for non-Discipline builds and warrior profession?

 

i didn't create powercreep so i didn't have to discuss it

as you say so yourself, the real solution is

 

1) nerfing the good traitline (discipline) to be on par with the rest

2) buffing the underused traitlines to be on par with the rest

 

i opted for option 2, because that is the most healthy one and has the least impact ON EVERY WARRIOR SPEC

 

You wanted build divesity, i gave you a potential build that coud be good

you have zero feedback on it

 

then later you will ask again "give feedback, give arguments, give me proof, give me builds"

and we are back from start

 

 

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > > Person 1: "I think change A would be good for reason A"

> > > > >

> > > > > Still waiting for this first step to be honest because reasons **build diversity** and **fluidity** don't make much sense.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Please see the "Instead we got" portion. You're one of those people saying "Why would you think that". I've explained why, but instead of providing constructive alternatives in return you just disregard without reason's to why with this "I know better than you, don't question me" attitude. How can you expect people to respond positively to that?

> > >

> > > If you want constructive alternatives to build diversity, the answer is to stop thinking about how to make everything equivalent to the best or your favourite builds. This game is not designed so that there is a large pick of best builds to choose from. If you want diversity, you can have it, but you are going to settle for something that isn't ideal. That's simply how the game is designed.

> >

> > I can see why you would think that, specially with how limited some professions are. I have to disagree that it's their intention for it to be that way. I think they are trying to make a large of a pool of builds as possible. Unlike other games you're able to easily swap traits and skills which to me would suggest they want lots of variety. Now, they may not be doing the best at it but I would like for them to and that's why I make suggestions (both good and bad ones).

>

> Again, you are linking build diversity with performance; there is already a large pool of possible builds. The question isn't if they exist, they do. Even if that's the case, I am definitely of the strong opinion that if you give a baseline effect to a whole class, any traitline that takes advantage of that baseline effect by default, becomes way more appealing than it did before that baseline effect was given. That is NOT a positive change for build diversity.

>

I know every build cannot be the best build, that's just impossible. Warrior build variety compared with other professions though is lacking. Every meta (and most non-meta) build runs Discipline. If we just nerf Discipline, say remove fast hands all together, that's just going to drop warrior even lower in it's already low rankings. I think if FH is added baseline Discipline should defiantly be nerfed to bring it even further out of favor and balance out the FH buff.

> > >

> > > If you want fluidity, then stick with Discipline, because that's the point of Anet giving players meaningful choices with a trait system. You can't expect all builds to play like those that have Discipline; that's why you have choice.

> >

> > I get what you're saying, there are defiantly certain aspects of a profession that should be bound to specific trait lines. I completely agree with that part. I don't think fluidity is one of them though as it an integral part of the games combat. How fluid the combat feels is one of the main reasons I play the game. It doesn't seem right to have to choose between having fluid combat or having a different build. For instance, with Revenant and Elemenalist combat feels really fluid to me no matter the build because I have a lot of skills to cycle through. With warriors though they have significantly less to manage and not having that ability to swap between weapon skills as soon as possible really breaks what fluidity that Discipline gives, mainly due to fast hands.

> >

> Unfortunately, that's a completely subjective view. I'm not even sure how to begin quantifying what is 'fluid' or not, so from my POV, that's not a strong argument to make FH baseline. What I do know is that access to weapon skills are barely affected by a change from 9 to 5 second swapping. That's the only measurable for 'fluid' play I can imagine.

>

 

It's not entirely subjective but that's defiantly a part of it not that it makes it any less important. Video games are not like chess or go, how it feels to play is very important. This isn't an uncommon view either. Access to weapon skills are greatly effected by fast hands, here is my example;

 

Lets say you are running a basic setup with GS + Axe/Shield. You start out on GS and you have Forceful Greatsword slotted so we'll deal with decreased cooldowns though this would apply to non-decreased as well. You use Rush to gap close, 16 seconds on cooldown. Then you immediately use whirlwind and weave auto attacks for 5 seconds to generate some might, . (Rush 11s, Whirlwind 3s, Swap 9s) You brawl it out on Axe/Shield, use your block, stun, ect. and 5 more seconds pass. (Rush 7s, Whirlwind 0s, Swap 4s). You get hit by spike damage, you need to swap and whirlwind out but you can't because you still have 4s to wait which is an eternity on 5% health. You can't swap so you're stuck in melee range and you die. This could have been narrowly avoided if you had FH.

 

This is what I mean by fluidity. There are other scenarios with other weapons/builds where this is an issue but I'm not going to cover every example. This would be a buff to warrior, no doubt. To make things easier to express lets say how powerful a profession is rated on a scale of 1-10 (1 being weak, 10 being strong). Warrior right now overall is a 5, a few scenarios a little stronger (like wvw WoD) and some weaker but it's pretty middle of the pack right now.

 

If we gave it FH baseline this might move it up to a 6 or 6.5 at best. This just gives it access to weapon skills a little more on demand so PvE DPS would be minimally effected. In sPvP and WvW FH is already run all the time so most people wouldn't notice a difference in warrior power, just the variety of builds they see because people are not forced to trade weapon skill uptime to try other builds. Now lets consider you just remove FH all together to bring Discipline out of the meta to open up build variety. This is a nerf, and it would easily drop warrior to a 3. At this point warrior would be gruelingly slow to play in any pvp environment. You would be forced to play even more passively/slowly out of fear of being caught without swap off CD. This would make things like slotting endure pain to cover this downtime absolutely required for everyone instead of just a crutch for new warriors. Once again, it would minimally effect PvE dps but would be a change in rotation and a net loss. (These rating are completely arbitrary and are just to clarify my point, so the actual numbers don't mean a whole lot)

 

All that being said there are solutions other than adding FH baseline that might even work better. I have yet to see anyone make a case for them outside of just mentioning that they exist, but I'm all ears.