Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > Let's break those points:

> > > Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline.

> > > More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline.

> > > **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.**

> >

> > They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar)

>

> It's not just "in your mind", these are pretty obvious and 100% legitimate comparisons, just because he says "it's not the same because it HAS TO BE ABOUT WEAPON SWAP" (no, it doesn't, he literally keeps talking about it "being specifically useful for a class") and he just chooses to dismiss it because he knows he's wrong and has nothing to answer to that.

> He literally said that weapon swapping is a part of warriors unique kit (it's very obviously not btw), so it makes sense to make it baselane. Well, initiative or shatter skills are unique (this time for real btw) for the respective classes, so buffing them by moving some of the trait/s into baseline passives would LITERALLY be what his main agument in this discussion is. Yet here he is, saying that "it's not the same, because it's not weapon swap", lmao.

 

You're right, weapon swapping is not a part of the warriors unique kit. I do think it should be because their unique profession mechanics are lacking in comparison to other professions. There is a reason people default to saying warrior is the simplest profession (any competent warrior will know this isn't strictly true). Adding this as a profession mechanice, buffing warrior, would give them some more flavor and make their play style more fluid without requiring a huge rework or potentially breaking the game.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > Let's break those points:

> > > > Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline.

> > > > More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline.

> > > > **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.**

> > >

> > > They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar)

> >

> > It's not just "in your mind", these are pretty obvious and 100% legitimate comparisons, just because he says "it's not the same because it HAS TO BE ABOUT WEAPON SWAP" (no, it doesn't, he literally keeps talking about it "being specifically useful for a class") and he just chooses to dismiss it because he knows he's wrong and has nothing to answer to that.

> > He literally said that weapon swapping is a part of warriors unique kit (it's very obviously not btw), so it makes sense to make it baselane. Well, initiative or shatter skills are unique (this time for real btw) for the respective classes, so buffing them by moving some of the trait/s into baseline passives would LITERALLY be what his main agument in this discussion is. Yet here he is, saying that "it's not the same, because it's not weapon swap", lmao.

>

> You're right, weapon swapping is not a part of the warriors unique kit. I do think it should be because their unique profession mechanics are lacking in comparison to other professions. There is a reason people default to saying warrior is the simplest profession (any competent warrior will know this isn't strictly true). Adding this as a profession mechanice, buffing warrior, would give them some more flavor and make their play style more fluid without requiring a huge rework or potentially breaking the game.

 

What flavor? Weapon swap isn't unique, what's your point here, to take weapon swap from other classes? Do you understand what "unique" means? Making their weapon swaps shorter as a class passive isn't making "weapon swap a unique mechanic", it doesn't magically "add flavor" or make it "more interesting", it's just a buff, so stop trying to wiggle your way around the obvious (that said you're still doing it less than that cryorion guy).

 

See, making weapon swap have 5 sec cooldown is breraking the game imo. If you think otherwise, why not give it to other classes as well?

That's right, because it's strong "af" and should have tradeoffs (like being obligated to pick a specific spec to unlock it).

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

>

>

> You know you guys are never going to find a middle ground right? You and pretty much everyone in this thread (myself included) are absolutely terrible at arguing their points. No one has found a middle ground and no one has swayed anyone else on their position. You'll need to change tactics (lol) if you're actually going to convince anyone. I just started this thread because I thought this would be a nice thing to have, not because I wanted to people to flame each other. I didn't realize at the time that the warrior minor trait FH had the same standing as religion or politics in the GW2 community.

 

Obviously not, but is he really trying to? crorion repeatedly asks people to "give him examples" (so: to speculate) and then when given some, he dismisses the whole point/s with simple "this is speculative". Welp, who would have thought...

 

No one will find middle ground, because that passive is too strong to exist without having to make any sacrifices for it. Again, if the main argument here is "to make it more fluid", just give it to every class, they all will just "feel more fluid and responsive". Honestly, no offence, but this thread shouldn't even exist.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> Wow, because that's totally not what you were doing, right? :D

 

No. I ask proper questions and they don't answer them. Why? I saw only like 2-3 people coming up with exact examples and I already replied to those (not sure if all, because there is a lot of replies at the same time).

 

"That would be true for prertty much every other class and build." x2

 

As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive. And if you say that it's not true, explain why do you think so :)

 

"That would be true for prertty much every other class and build. Because FH is extremely strong based on how the game works and NOT based on how warrior works. But you consistently choose to pretend it's not and that's it somehow only complements warrrior's gameplay. That's just a huge load of kitten to try and make it seem like a "reasonable change", while it's very obviously not."

 

Warrior would not be able to do what they are now without Fast Hands, especially Spellbreaker. Fast Hands significantly improves effectiveness of warrior mechanics. I take it as part of mechanics because it unlocks warrior's true potential. Do you think that Anet balanced e.g. Spellbreaker or Berserker around Discipline traitline and 5 second weapon swap? Or they balanced those specs around 10 second weapon swap so people are able to create builds without Discipline traitline? Then explain why non-discipline builds are not as competetive as discipline builds? Discipline traitline being too good? Then why not making FH baseline to promote non-discipline builds.

Powercreep? Then please explain precisely builds and trait combinations you think would create this whole powercreep. And don't avoid this part same as Obtena or some other people. If you think powercreep would be so huge, I am sure you can name examples and explain them if your knowledge about warrior class is adequate. Otherwise, why even dicuss something you have not enough knowledge about?

 

As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.

 

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"sneakytails.5629" said:

> > This is why I proposed a 7 second baseline weapon swap, that’s 2 seconds down from base. Still a huge buff, yet at the same time reasonable.

> >

> >

> =_= 6.5 second, final offer. Jokes aside, I think this would be fine. I still don't think it would be that huge of a buff, a buff still, but not a massive one.

 

No compromises. Trust me when I say this: 5 seconds is time-tested, over all those years (which certain people can't understand). It is either 5 second weapon swap baseline or buff other traitlines enough to be competetive, which would increase powercreep, too (according to mentality of all people who say that FH baseline would increase powercreep). The 3rd alternative would be nerfing everything accross the game, which I would prefer the most, to be honest. But I personally doubt Anet will ever do serious powercreep fix. Maybe some random heavy nerfs before next elite specialization which will introduce another level of powercreep.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > > > > > @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > > > > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > > > > > Let's break those points:

> > > > > > > > Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline.

> > > > > > > > More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline.

> > > > > > > > **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.**

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's not just "in your mind", these are pretty obvious and 100% legitimate comparisons, just because he says "it's not the same because it HAS TO BE ABOUT WEAPON SWAP" (no, it doesn't, he literally keeps talking about it "being specifically useful for a class") and he just chooses to dismiss it because he knows he's wrong and has nothing to answer to that.

> > > > > > He literally said that weapon swapping is a part of warriors unique kit (it's very obviously not btw), so it makes sense to make it baselane. Well, initiative or shatter skills are unique (this time for real btw) for the respective classes, so buffing them by moving some of the trait/s into baseline passives would LITERALLY be what his main agument in this discussion is. Yet here he is, saying that "it's not the same, because it's not weapon swap", lmao.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're right, weapon swapping is not a part of the warriors unique kit. I do think it should be because their unique profession mechanics are lacking in comparison to other professions. There is a reason people default to saying warrior is the simplest profession (any competent warrior will know this isn't strictly true). Adding this as a profession mechanice, buffing warrior, would give them some more flavor and make their play style more fluid without requiring a huge rework or potentially breaking the game.

> > > >

> > > > What flavor? Weapon swap isn't unique, what's your point here, to take weapon swap from other classes? Do you understand what "unique" means? Making their weapon swaps shorter as a class passive isn't making "weapon swap a unique mechanic", it doesn't magically "add flavor" or make it "more interesting", it's just a buff, so stop trying to wiggle your way around the obvious (that said you're still doing it less than that cryorion guy).

> > > >

> > > > See, making weapon swap have 5 sec cooldown is breraking the game imo. If you think otherwise, why not give it to other classes as well?

> > > > That's right, because it's strong "af" and should have tradeoffs (like being obligated to pick a specific spec to unlock it).

> > >

> > > Do you understand how to argue a point? Trying to insult people's intelligence is not how you do it. I thought I would try and give you another chance to be civil about the subject, but you seem incapable. Take a deep breath, watch some Bob Ross. Cool off and come back when you can criticize someone without being an kitten about it.

> >

> > Which part was so insulting for you that you had to disregard anything that was written and pretend you're a victim instead (while simultaneously insulting me btw)?

>

> Okay, I'll be an optimist and assume you actually dont realize how you're being an kitten. Some people cant and that's fine, I'll try my best to explain.

 

Again you keep talking about someone being offensive while at the same time namecalling, just like in previous post.

 

> You tried insulting my intelligence by questioning my knowledge of a word I obviously know the definition of just to discredit my argument.

> Your constant use of quotes and all caps makes it appear to others like you are not even attempting to consider there point which is construed as toxic in any healthy debate.

 

No, I didn't. I asked you if you understand what it means because from how you keep using it, it doesn't seem like you do.

"weapon swapping is not a part of the warriors unique kit. I do think it should be because their unique profession mechanics are lacking in comparison to other professions."

 

I commented on this part and asked you if you think the weapon swap should be taken away from the other classes, because then we could talk about it "being unique for warrrior". Too bad you disregarded it completely and now you're trying to tell me I refused to consider your point. How did I refuse to consider it while asking followup questions on what you said?

 

 

 

> You disregard people's points just because you dont agree with their point and want them to just give up and admit you're right.

 

Which one of your "point"* did I "disregard"? It just seems like a lie to me, but by all means, quote exacly what I've missed or avoided because I disagreed with it.

*from [this post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/878928/#Comment_878928 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/878928/#Comment_878928"), obviously, because that's the one I commented on.

 

> You use abrasive phrases such as "dont try to wiggle your way out of" and "it doesnt magically ".

 

These are normal words and normal phrases and that's exactly what happens in a lot of posts in this thread (like, as mentioned before, "give me an example" > "-doesn't count, that's just speculative"). No reason not to call it for what it is imo.

 

> You cant come at someone with that kind of attitude and expect then to just fold and agree with you.

 

I don't expect you to agree with me -by all means, disagree with me, but playing a victim because you got called out on a wrongly used word and disregarding anything I wrote because of that is just... Dodgy? And that's not an insult, that's just how it looks.

 

And now you still keep answering to other things instead of telling me where I was wrong in [this post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/878938/#Comment_878938 "https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/878938/#Comment_878938")

[Odik.4587]

> > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

If you really care for warrior . Dont you want to report magebane tether being blockable by skills and aeigs itself and not being unblockable as in description ? If its intended then I feel bad for warrior now :)

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> If you really care for warrior . Dont you want to report magebane tether being blockable by skills and aeigs itself and not being unblockable as in description ? If its intended then I feel bad for warrior now :)

 

No idea this was a thing. If it's true then they should definitely fix it if it unintended. I honestly never noticed. I always figured if mage bane tether didnt connect the game just didnt register it correctly. I'm use to the game failing to register stuff from playing thief lol

[Odik.4587]

> @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"Zexanima.7851" said:

> > If you really care for warrior . Dont you want to report magebane tether being blockable by skills and aeigs itself and not being unblockable as in description ? If its intended then I feel bad for warrior now :)

>

> No idea this was a thing. If it's true then they should definitely fix it if it unintended. I honestly never noticed. I always figured if mage bane tether didnt connect the game just didnt register it correctly. I'm use to the game failing to register stuff from playing thief lol

 

Even if u land burst/fc u wont get tether if target had aegis NOT removed by ur removal or any blocking skill will block ur tether and will go on full cooldown. ;)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> If you think that faster weapon-swap does not play big role in class mechanic (thus can be considered part of mechanic), then you probably haven't played warrior that much to be familiar with how significant and game-changing faster weapon swap is for warrior, burst usage and weapon skill usage.

 

if that's actually true, it's a reason to nerf it, not pass it round like free halloween candy. This is the dishonestly I'm talking about. You say it has a big role as a class mechanic, but then turn around and say it's not THAT big, so it should be OK to give to every warrior. It's not both. It's impact on warrior play (and the follow on concept of giving player meaningful trait choice) is EXACTLY why it's a trait and not baseline.

 

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Let's break those points:

> > Mesmer reduced shatter cooldowns are like reduced warrior burst cooldowns, not weapon swap cooldown. Steal CD ditto. That would still require Discipline traitline.

> > More initiative is not equal to faster weapon swap because warrior has CD on their weapon skills, it is more accurate to compare initiative with adrenaline.

> > **Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.**

>

> They are kinda comparable in my mind and for thieves trickery is a must have traitline (for mirage dueling and clone production on dodge kind of similar). I know difference between disciple and non-discipline builds dw,thus I said this going to make str-defense way too good without tradeoffs.

> By the way as Obtena told to OP ,even if he would make a poll what warrior needs FH wont be on top of demands...he didnt believe and made a thread... guess who was right? Ignorant Obtena wins!

> >But then there is @Obtena.7952 who claims that such strong trait/traitline should be nerfed instead only to promote way less competetive, useless and impractical builds

> Actually thats how things Blizzard used to solve. Some trait too strong and everyone pick it ... ? HOW DARE THIS TRAIT TO BE SO STRONG!? And nerf it so ppl 'could' pick other traits :joy:

> I'm out from this discussion :bleep_bloop:

 

Anet isn't any different ... there are LOTS of examples where Anet made class changes simply because of the strength of the element itself. Again, it's worth repeating this warning: be very careful how you present these ideas. In case you haven't noticed, I don't see many instances were game devs simply implement player ideas, even if they agree with the underlying problem the players present. In this case, if I was in agreement with the idea that Discipline degrades meaningful choices players have for warrior traits, I would shove the whole Discipline traitline through the nerf meatgrinder to fix it because it's the easiest solution to that problem. There are always many ways to fix a problem; players shouldn't assume they have the best and only solutions to those problems.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

 

> No, you didn't unless you count the great answers of "that's just speculative!" after you asked people to speculate. That's also the exact reason people won't theory craft kitten for you, because it's a waste of time. :)

>

> > As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive. And if you say that it's not true, explain why do you think so :)

>

> Wow, you "state" that after 5 pages of getting thrown this thing at you while just avoiding addressing it before that :O

> NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competitive, because NOT A SINGLE CLASS except warrior has it. This passive would make every other class more flexible, responsive and safer so every other class WOULD depend on it in a pvp/wvw environments as well. That's rather obvious, isn't it? :)

>

> I DON'T DEPEND ON THE SKILL I DON'T HAVE [surprised pikachu face]

>

> > Warrior would not be able to do what they are now without Fast Hands, especially Spellbreaker.

>

> If you gave FH to other classes and then took it away, they wouldn't be able to do what they did while having it as well. How is this an argument?

>

> >Fast Hands significantly improves effectiveness of warrior mechanics. I take it as part of mechanics because it unlocks warrior's true potential. Do you think that Anet balanced e.g. Spellbreaker or Berserker around Discipline traitline and 5 second weapon swap? Or they balanced those specs around 10 second weapon swap so people are able to create builds without Discipline traitline? Then explain why non-discipline builds are not as competetive as discipline builds? Discipline traitline being too good? Then why not making FH baseline to promote non-discipline builds.

>

> I already explained that, but you chose to not comment on it or some kitten, I don't even remember. What I wrote about it before was more-or-less:

> FH is used competetively, because in pvp environment you throw your pve rotations out of the window and start reacting to what enemies do, which means you dont want and should not spam your skills "off-cooldown". FH lets you not be locked out of the 5 skills for twice as long as without it. That would be 100% accurate with other classes in competitive environment.

> Why not making FH baseline? As I said: because it's too strong to be taken without making sacrifices. You want FH? Pick a related spec. You want another spec? Welp, don't take FH. Oh wait, you can't because it's JUST THAT STRONG? Cool, that's the point.

>

> > Powercreep? (...)

>

> Where did I even write anything about powercreep? Also I already explained why I won't theorycraft kitten for you. (because you'll say it's speculation)

> It doesn't matter what anyone writes, you'll just keep pretending making FH a class passive skill is reasonable, while everyone with any idea about the game knows it's not.

>

> > As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.

>

> Am I supposed to repeat the answer from the start of this post or you'll find it by yourself? :grin:

>

> So again: you said you had a **"valid reason**", yet you still didn't give any. FH is a strong passive trait because it's strong, not because it's "complementing warriors".

 

"No, you didn't unless you count the great answers of "that's just speculative!" after you asked people to speculate. That's also the exact reason people won't theory craft kitten for you, because it's a waste of time. :)"

 

Lack of profession knowledge it is then. Avoiding precise answer as asked. If you knew anything specific, you would try to destroy me with it.

 

" As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive. And if you say that it's not true, explain why do you think so :)"

 

Because not a single class but warrior needs it. They are balanced around 10 second weapon cooldown since like... 2012?

 

"If you gave FH to other classes and then took it away, they wouldn't be able to do what they did while having it as well. How is this an argument?"

 

Again, other classes were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. That is why they have competetive builds which all have (and always had) 10 second weapon swap.

Can you say the same about warrior? Or why is it that 99% of competetive warrior builds have 5 second weapon swap?

 

"Where did I even write anything about powercreep? Also I already explained why I won't theorycraft kitten for you. (because you'll say it's speculation)"

 

No, I will use my knowledge and experience with warrior class and explain why is that not a powercreep :)

OR in case you properly state precisely build, trait/traitline synergy, etc, which would be too strong, broken, had no trade off, etc, I have no reason to lie that the build would be indeed too strong.

But you are avoiding that and it seems because your knowledge about warrior is not big enough for this kind of topic.

Feel free to destroy me with specific examples :)

 

I decided not to comment rest because it took me already too much time and energy for replying to everybody and we are not going to move forward.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > If you think that faster weapon-swap does not play big role in class mechanic (thus can be considered part of mechanic), then you probably haven't played warrior that much to be familiar with how significant and game-changing faster weapon swap is for warrior, burst usage and weapon skill usage.

>

> if that's actually true, it's a reason to nerf it, not pass it round like free halloween candy. This is the dishonestly I'm talking about. You say it has a big role as a class mechanic, but then turn around and say it's not THAT big, so it should be OK to give to every warrior. It's not both. It's impact on warrior play (and the follow on concept of giving player meaningful trait choice) is EXACTLY why it's a trait and not baseline.

 

Sigh. It is not that big to cause powercreep outrage as you and others imply. Feel free to destroy me with exact and precise examples.

But then you argument that "buffing something is powercreep" and speculate that new minor trait in Discipline traitline is going to be insanely strong.

 

The dishonesty is your lack of warrior class knowledge, coming here and commenting, avoiding answering proper questions which would be crucial for advancing this conversation. The dishonesty is your ignorance, proposing nerfs to something you have no idea about, the repercussions of it, etc.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > If you think that faster weapon-swap does not play big role in class mechanic (thus can be considered part of mechanic), then you probably haven't played warrior that much to be familiar with how significant and game-changing faster weapon swap is for warrior, burst usage and weapon skill usage.

> >

> > if that's actually true, it's a reason to nerf it, not pass it round like free halloween candy. This is the dishonestly I'm talking about. You say it has a big role as a class mechanic, but then turn around and say it's not THAT big, so it should be OK to give to every warrior. It's not both. It's impact on warrior play (and the follow on concept of giving player meaningful trait choice) is EXACTLY why it's a trait and not baseline.

>

> Sigh. It is not that big to cause powercreep outrage as you and others imply. Feel free to destroy me with exact and precise examples.

> But then you argument that "buffing something is powercreep" and speculate that new minor trait in Discipline traitline is going to be insanely strong.

 

It doesn't matter how big it is. That's irrelevant in my book. My argument is not that "buffing something is powercreep" at all ... you just keep trying to make it that because frankly, it's a ridiculous argument, it's easy to dismiss and it's a pathetic attempt to make me look like I haven't got a clue about what I'm talking about. I didn't ever speculate a new minor trait in Discipline traitline is going to be insanely strong either ... then you wonder why I don't engage you by answering your questions ... probably has something to do with the level of dishonesty I'm encountering ... Just keep em coming ...

 

None of that really matters anyways. My statement is not incorrect here. You can't claim on one hand FH isn't a big deal to make baseline because it's not significant enough to make massive powercreep, then on the other hand say that faster weapon swaps play such a big role for all warrior builds that it's game-changing and they should all have FH baseline. How do you not see the conflicting argument you present here? Simply put, that's nonsense. It's not both game-changing AND insignificant at the same time.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Sobx.1758" said:

>

> > No, you didn't unless you count the great answers of "that's just speculative!" after you asked people to speculate. That's also the exact reason people won't theory craft kitten for you, because it's a waste of time. :)

> >

> > > As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive. And if you say that it's not true, explain why do you think so :)

> >

> > Wow, you "state" that after 5 pages of getting thrown this thing at you while just avoiding addressing it before that :O

> > NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competitive, because NOT A SINGLE CLASS except warrior has it. This passive would make every other class more flexible, responsive and safer so every other class WOULD depend on it in a pvp/wvw environments as well. That's rather obvious, isn't it? :)

> >

> > I DON'T DEPEND ON THE SKILL I DON'T HAVE [surprised pikachu face]

> >

> > > Warrior would not be able to do what they are now without Fast Hands, especially Spellbreaker.

> >

> > If you gave FH to other classes and then took it away, they wouldn't be able to do what they did while having it as well. How is this an argument?

> >

> > >Fast Hands significantly improves effectiveness of warrior mechanics. I take it as part of mechanics because it unlocks warrior's true potential. Do you think that Anet balanced e.g. Spellbreaker or Berserker around Discipline traitline and 5 second weapon swap? Or they balanced those specs around 10 second weapon swap so people are able to create builds without Discipline traitline? Then explain why non-discipline builds are not as competetive as discipline builds? Discipline traitline being too good? Then why not making FH baseline to promote non-discipline builds.

> >

> > I already explained that, but you chose to not comment on it or some kitten, I don't even remember. What I wrote about it before was more-or-less:

> > FH is used competetively, because in pvp environment you throw your pve rotations out of the window and start reacting to what enemies do, which means you dont want and should not spam your skills "off-cooldown". FH lets you not be locked out of the 5 skills for twice as long as without it. That would be 100% accurate with other classes in competitive environment.

> > Why not making FH baseline? As I said: because it's too strong to be taken without making sacrifices. You want FH? Pick a related spec. You want another spec? Welp, don't take FH. Oh wait, you can't because it's JUST THAT STRONG? Cool, that's the point.

> >

> > > Powercreep? (...)

> >

> > Where did I even write anything about powercreep? Also I already explained why I won't theorycraft kitten for you. (because you'll say it's speculation)

> > It doesn't matter what anyone writes, you'll just keep pretending making FH a class passive skill is reasonable, while everyone with any idea about the game knows it's not.

> >

> > > As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive.

> >

> > Am I supposed to repeat the answer from the start of this post or you'll find it by yourself? :grin:

> >

> > So again: you said you had a **"valid reason**", yet you still didn't give any. FH is a strong passive trait because it's strong, not because it's "complementing warriors".

>

> "No, you didn't unless you count the great answers of "that's just speculative!" after you asked people to speculate. That's also the exact reason people won't theory craft kitten for you, because it's a waste of time. :)"

>

> Lack of profession knowledge it is then. Avoiding precise answer as asked. If you knew anything specific, you would try to destroy me with it.

 

See, you even do this right now, you disregard anything taht's written by anyone and just state whatever you feel like. That just looks like failtrolling, because you can't seriously be this blunt. I would destroy you with that and then you'd tell me it's just speculation, so why would anyone bother with that.

 

> " As stated in other reply: Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CLASS would benefit from faster weapon swap, BUT NOT A SINGLE CLASS is as dependant on it as warrior to be competetive. And if you say that it's not true, explain why do you think so :)"

>

> Because not a single class but warrior needs it.

 

False.

 

> "If you gave FH to other classes and then took it away, they wouldn't be able to do what they did while having it as well. How is this an argument?"

>

> Again, other classes were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. That is why they have competetive builds which all have (and always had) 10 second weapon swap.

> Can you say the same about warrior? Or why is it that 99% of competetive warrior builds have 5 second weapon swap?

 

I already wrote why it's used in competitive builds in the very post you're answering to (AND in the previous posts), you just keep proving that it doesn't matter what anyone writes, you'll just refuse to acknowledge it because you know you're wrong. Keep proving me right though :)

 

> "Where did I even write anything about powercreep? Also I already explained why I won't theorycraft kitten for you. (because you'll say it's speculation)"

>

> No, I will use my knowledge and experience with warrior class and explain why is that not a powercreep :)

> OR in case you properly state precisely build, trait/traitline synergy, etc, which would be too strong, broken, had no trade off, etc, I have no reason to lie that the build would be indeed too strong.

> But you are avoiding that and it seems because your knowledge about warrior is not big enough for this kind of topic.

> Feel free to destroy me with specific examples :)

 

No, you won't and you never did. You also failed to answer to most of the things I WROTE and then decided you'll answer to something I DIDN'T write, what a surprise. So again, just keep proving me right :)

Feel free to actually answer to things I write instead of avoiding most of it and then answering to something YOU MADE UP. :D

 

> I decided not to comment rest because it took me already too much time and energy for replying to everybody and we are not going to move forward.

 

Of course you decided to, I'm so surprised. Keep proving me right :)

 

And hey, you really did great job with double quoting everything, true mastermind in action, no wonder you avoid answering to major parts of the posts :D

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> It doesn't matter how big it is. That's irrelevant in my book. My argument is not that "buffing something is powercreep" at all ... you just keep trying to make it that because frankly, it's a ridiculous argument, it's easy to dismiss and it's a pathetic attempt to make me look like I haven't got a clue about what I'm talking about. I didn't ever speculate a new minor trait in Discipline traitline is going to be insanely strong either ... then you wonder why I don't engage you by answering your questions ... probably has something to do with the level of dishonesty I'm encountering ... Just keep em coming ...

>

> None of that really matters anyways. My statement is not incorrect here. You can't claim on one hand FH isn't a big deal to make baseline because it's not significant enough to make massive powercreep, then on the other hand say that faster weapon swaps play such a big role for all warrior builds that it's game-changing and they should all have FH baseline. How do you not see the conflicting argument you present here? Simply put, that's nonsense. It's not both game-changing AND insignificant at the same time.

___

"It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with."

 

"I didn't ever speculate a new minor trait in Discipline traitline is going to be insanely strong either ... then you wonder why I don't engage you by answering your questions ... probably has something to do with the level of dishonesty I'm encountering ... Just keep em coming ..."

 

"you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well" - You used this as an implication of minor trait being strong enough to increase powercreep = speculation, to support your argument.

We want FH baseline to improve non-discipline builds. Discipline builds will be as much affected as strong the new minor trait will be. That only depends on Anet.

Funny how you try to rationalize not answering my questions. You keep us running in circle because it seems you are not able to provide anything specific as I asked you since page 1 of this thread.

___

"It doesn't matter how big it is."

 

It does. It is significant enough to improve non-discipline builds, but not that significant to make them overpowered.

You just pulled it out of context :)

You think those builds will be overpowered (even though "it is not your argument", while being reluctant to FH baseline because of the powercreep "it would cause")? Too strong? Broken? Feel free (as always by now) to precisely name them and explain them. I am open to this anytime :)

___

Also,

You don't think about this change from warrior point of view.

This change is for warrior class, not for other classes. Other classes have nothing to do with it. It is just that other people started the typical "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that".

You have to realize how impactful the change would be on warrior class, thus imagine all possible builds, all possible trait synergies, traitline combinations and then you are able to pick what builds would benefit FH baseline the most. And then we can discuss (NOT SPECULATE as we are experienced and we know what we are talking about) the real outcome of this change.

___

**If there is anything we can do about these long posts (especially mine), for sake of clarity, to avoid confusion and possibly to move forward, I politely ask you, please write your argument as short as possible, why do you think FH baseline is not good alternative way to increase warrior build diversity (to improve less used, non-Discipline builds).**

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > It doesn't matter how big it is. That's irrelevant in my book. My argument is not that "buffing something is powercreep" at all ... you just keep trying to make it that because frankly, it's a ridiculous argument, it's easy to dismiss and it's a pathetic attempt to make me look like I haven't got a clue about what I'm talking about. I didn't ever speculate a new minor trait in Discipline traitline is going to be insanely strong either ... then you wonder why I don't engage you by answering your questions ... probably has something to do with the level of dishonesty I'm encountering ... Just keep em coming ...

> >

> > None of that really matters anyways. My statement is not incorrect here. You can't claim on one hand FH isn't a big deal to make baseline because it's not significant enough to make massive powercreep, then on the other hand say that faster weapon swaps play such a big role for all warrior builds that it's game-changing and they should all have FH baseline. How do you not see the conflicting argument you present here? Simply put, that's nonsense. It's not both game-changing AND insignificant at the same time.

> ___

> "It increases power creep because it gives an advantage across the board with no consequence. Not only do you get FH for free on any warrior build, you get a completely new trait to replace FH in Discipline as well. I mean, if you can't see how that's power creep, there isn't much left to discuss; clearly you lack the understanding to speak on the topic to begin with."

 

Exactly. I said it would be powercreep and it is. But my argument isn't that because buffing something is powercreep, it shouldn't be done, because that's a stupid argument as I pointed out already. What is happening here is that you are simply not able to follow the conversation, because you aren't willing to listen to anyone who disagrees with you. All this has arisen because at one point I asked why FH should be baseline, and the answer was "because it's better", and THAT is where this powercreep nonsense started. Being better is not a reason to buff something because it goes without saying that anything that is buffed is better by default; that's a trivial reason. THAT is my statement, and I made it many times. If you can't follow, then we have a problem.

 

I've given many reasons I believe FH shouldn't be baseline, but I'm not willing to repeat them so you can continually twist their meaning and attempt to discredit me with nonsensical interpretations of my own words. If you want to engage in this kind of discussion in a REASONABLE manner, the requirement for justification is on the people suggesting the idea on why it SHOULD be implemented, not on those that disagree to justify the current implementation.

 

Again, if what you said was true about the game changing nature of FH for all warrior builds, then I can easily conclude FH shouldn't be baseline because it means it makes Discipline a meaningful choice for warriors to take. IF you extend that and say it's a problem for build diversity that Discipline is MORE than meaningful ... then my conclusion is that Discipline requires a massive nerf so that BECOMES meaningful. It's your burden to prove EVERY warrior is so hard done by, that FH is absolutely necessary to make it game changing for them. It makes zero sense to make a statement as fact then say it should be done because you disagree with everyone's objections to it.

 

What is the problem you are trying to fix? Why is the solution you have THE best one to implement? Pretty basic .. yet apparently, so elusive.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> You don't think about this change from warrior point of view.

> This change is for warrior class, not for other classes. Other classes have nothing to do with it. It is just that other people started the typical "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that".

> You have to realize how impactful the change would be on warrior class, thus imagine all possible builds, all possible trait synergies, traitline combinations and then you are able to pick what builds would benefit FH baseline the most. And then we can discuss (NOT SPECULATE as we are experienced and we know what we are talking about) the real outcome of this change.

> ___

 

You have that backwards. You are looking at this from ONLY a warrior perspective.

 

There is not a single class in this game which would not give their first-born to be able to weapon swap on 5 seconds, in a very powerful trait line on top of all.

 

There is even 2 classes which would benefit way more than warrior from such a change: thief and revenant, both of which are not limited by cool downs but other types of mechanics.

 

Every class would benefit immensely especially in a competitive environment to have more fluent access to their weapon abilities. Warrior is simply the only class given this opportunity, similar to how other classes have very powerful and unique benefits in some of their trait lines (and which most would love to have base line). If you can't see that, you haven't played enough other classes extensively.

 

I have a bit over 700 hours across my 2 main warriors (I have 4 warriors), yet I would never advocate for something like Fast Hands to be baseline. Let me rephrase that: I would LOVE to have Fast Hands baseline on my warrior, but unlike you I enjoy playing multiple classes and realize this would be insanely out of line and biased towards warrior.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Every class would benefit immensely especially in a competitive environment to have more fluent access to their weapon abilities. Warrior is simply the only class given this opportunity, similar to how other classes have very powerful and unique benefits in some of their trait lines (and which most would love to have base line). If you can't see that, you haven't played enough other classes extensively.

 

I want to elaborate on this because it's EXACTLY the reason FH should stay in Discipline. The opportunity is rare and it should be a CHOICE players make to take advantage of it. If the opportunity to take advantage of this trait is as good as some people say it is, the LAST thing that should happen is making it baseline.

 

 

 

[cryorion.9532]

@""Cyninja.2954"

Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills.

Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it).

 

@""Obtena.7952"

 

"Being better is not a reason to buff something because it goes without saying that anything that is buffed is better by default; that's a trivial reason."

 

But in this case, we are talking about something lacking (non-discipline builds) to be better. What else can you do about it? Buff those traitlines directly? But that is exactly the same thing, why should we buff even those traitlines that are lacking? If being better is not reason to buff them? What is the difference between those two alternatives (making Fast Hands baseline or buffing other traitlines)? Different level of powercreep? Then we are on the powercreep part where we can discuss... you know what.

 

No, you are not willing to answer to my questions which would show that there wouldn't be as big powercreep as you and others imply. Plus you literally talked about powercreep as being an issue, so why are you now accusing me for starting it?

You only think there would be huge powercreep, but you don't know exactly how, where, which. Otherwise you would bomb be with such arguments right away.

 

Your argumenting is basically: "FH shouldn't be baseline only because people want it". But when we give you enough reasons why and how it would improve lacking builds, then what else is your argument? That it is not enough? How else do you want to buff those lacking builds? By buffing other traitlines directly? Isn't that powercreep, too?

If powercreep is not the main reason why you are against FH baseline, then what is? That people pulled it out of their butt just because?

 

Nice try to discredit me with this accusation of me thinking that my idea is the best. All I want is to dicuss why this idea is good/bad from accurate and specific point of view which you obviously cannot. I accuse you from not being knowledgable enough about the profession to know real powercreep and reason why warrior should get FH baseline (as an alternative to buffing other traitlines) but there is reason for that. You avoiding answering my questions.

You just try as hard as possible to be the one who is right even though you are avoiding fundamental part of dicussion.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> But in this case, we are talking about something lacking (non-discipline builds) to be better.

 

Seriously? So making FH baseline is the BEST idea you have for making ALL non-discpline builds better? That doesn't sound like a sensible assessment.

 

Making FH baseline is most significant to builds already taking Discipline (because they already intended to take advantage of weapon swapping Discipline traitline offers) in the first place. This reasoning is just a ruse; pretending FH would benefit non-discpline builds more than discipline ones makes little sense. If anything, pushing FH to baseline makes Discipline MORE appealing than it is now, for every build.

 

Again, your arguments point to a nerf, not a baseline change because what is better for non-Discipline traits is to make them more meaningful choices ... and handing out FH does the opposite of that. Biasing all Warrior builds towards weapon swapping with baseline FH makes Discipline MORE attractive, not less. That does not sound like making non-discipline builds 'better' to me.

 

Again, making something better isn't a reason for buffs just because buffs make things better; that's a trivial reasoning. You're not going to get around this nice little paradox you setup for yourself; FH can't be game-changing trait AND a 'not big deal' baseline buff at the same time.

[melandru.3876]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > You don't think about this change from warrior point of view.

> > This change is for warrior class, not for other classes. Other classes have nothing to do with it. It is just that other people started the typical "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that".

> > You have to realize how impactful the change would be on warrior class, thus imagine all possible builds, all possible trait synergies, traitline combinations and then you are able to pick what builds would benefit FH baseline the most. And then we can discuss (NOT SPECULATE as we are experienced and we know what we are talking about) the real outcome of this change.

> > ___

>

> You have that backwards. You are looking at this from ONLY a warrior perspective.

>

> There is not a single class in this game which would not give their first-born to be able to weapon swap on 5 seconds, in a very powerful trait line on top of all.

>

> There is even 2 classes which would benefit way more than warrior from such a change: thief and revenant, both of which are not limited by cool downs but other types of mechanics.

>

> Every class would benefit immensely especially in a competitive environment to have more fluent access to their weapon abilities. Warrior is simply the only class given this opportunity, similar to how other classes have very powerful and unique benefits in some of their trait lines (and which most would love to have base line). If you can't see that, you haven't played enough other classes extensively.

>

> I have a bit over 700 hours across my 2 main warriors (I have 4 warriors), yet I would never advocate for something like Fast Hands to be baseline. Let me rephrase that: I would LOVE to have Fast Hands baseline on my warrior, but unlike you I enjoy playing multiple classes and realize this would be insanely out of line and biased towards warrior.

 

you are right on thief, but i'd leave rev out

rev is heavy based on energy (management) that's a fact, but rev also has weaponskill cooldowns

 

i'd say skirmiishing rangers would benefit alot from a passive 5 sec weaponswap, as all their minor traits in that particular line evolve around weapon swapping

 

you would have:

- Gain swiftness when swapping weapons in combat. (9 scond icd would become 5 sec, since it's balanced on weapon swap)

- Gain fury when swapping weapons in combat. (same as above)

- When swapping weapons, the next ranger weapon skill you use will recharge faster. <<<<<===== MASSIVE powercreep

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> @""Cyninja.2954"

> Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills.

> Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it).

>

 

and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature.

 

Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc.

 

Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc.

 

But this isn't a singular class game is it?

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @""Cyninja.2954"

> > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills.

> > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it).

> >

>

> and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature.

>

> Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc.

>

> Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc.

>

> But this isn't a singular class game is it?

 

I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply.

 

All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that.

Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap.

Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all.

 

@"Obtena.7952"

"Making FH baseline is most significant to builds already taking Discipline (because they already intended to take advantage of weapon swapping Discipline traitline offers) in the first place. This reasoning is just a ruse; pretending FH would benefit non-discpline builds more than discipline ones makes little sense. If anything, pushing FH to baseline makes Discipline MORE appealing than it is now, for every build."

 

How can you say, that pushing FH to baseline makes Discipline more appealing? Is that as if people suddenly realize how good 5 second weapon swap is and now want to use Discipline traitline instead for its other benefits? That is not the class issue, but more like individual's knowledge/experience issue. It has been like that for years and it is not reason to nerf competetive builds just to promote using lacking builds. Instead, people would have more incentive to try non-discipline builds because those builds wouldn't be that much limited compared to Discipline builds anymore. It is an alternative to buffing lacking traitlines.

 

Now, let's think about what if Anet decides to make FH baseline (not thinking about why). What do you think would happen after patch? How would this change reflect in-game for warrior class? How would warrior dominate now each game mode? Which new meta builds would take over current meta builds in game?

I think those are pretty important questions to answer if you claim that I pretend that FH baseline would benefit non-Discipline builds more than Discipline.

And don't avoid this by calling it speculation. If your arguments are backed up by exact examples and precise description, there is nothing better to use as an argument :)

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @""Cyninja.2954"

> > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills.

> > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it).

> > >

> >

> > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature.

> >

> > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc.

> >

> > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc.

> >

> > But this isn't a singular class game is it?

>

> I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply.

>

> All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that.

> Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap.

> Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all.

>

 

There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior.

 

Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium.

 

I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line.

[BlackTruth.6813]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @""Cyninja.2954"

> > > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills.

> > > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it).

> > > >

> > >

> > > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature.

> > >

> > > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc.

> > >

> > > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc.

> > >

> > > But this isn't a singular class game is it?

> >

> > I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply.

> >

> > All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that.

> > Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap.

> > Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all.

> >

>

> There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior.

>

> Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium.

>

> I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line.

 

They can just replace the trait with something like 1 second fury on weapon swap? **Nobody asked for an OP replacement?** They could leave it blank.

 

Key word on nobody asked for an OP replacement trait assuming that baseline fast hands happen.

 

The other thing is.. why should I have to use discipline so that I can cancel Hammer F1 or Axe F1 more often than if I didn't use discipline? The weapon cancel (aka fake-outs to mind game or cancel something that you know will miss) on those leap burst skills shouldn't be discipline exclusive, what's wrong about making those exclusive to ALL warrior combinations?

 

What we are trying to do is not touch the already decent discipline builds, but maybe incentivize other combinations as well in the SAFEST way. Okay you can say just buff the other trait lines, but here's the catch I would rather not have Arms have the 100% F1 burst 100% crit chance turn into a minor for example, THAT would be potentially catastrophic.

 

What are you so scared of again when baseline fasthands can be EXECUTED CORRECTLY? Sure if ANET replaces it with an idiotic trait you can say "I told you so" but here's the catch they don't have to and there is a chance that they won't.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"BlackTruth.6813" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > > @""Cyninja.2954"

> > > > > Thief has spammable weapon skills with no cooldown and revenant has access to twice as more utility skills.

> > > > > Warrior does not have either. This is exactly what I meant by "but other class is like that, so warrior can't be like that" in previous post and that this issue is related only to warrior (other classes have nothing to do with it).

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > and? I am well aware of how thief and revenant work. That is exactly WHY I mentioned that Fast Hands would benefit those 2 classes most. It directly refutes the constant point people make that warrior somehow magically is the only class worth having 5 second weapon swap. It's not even the class which benefits or makes the most use of this feature.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, if we looked at the game from only a singular classes perspective there is a ton of changes and improvements we could make to make rotations easier, more fun, combat more fluent, etc.

> > > >

> > > > Revenant could lose it's cool downs on it's weapon and utility skills, as it was originally designed by the way. Mesmer would get back distortion share. Elementalists could lose the target cap on some of their area skills. Necromancer would get a ton of more movement skills. Etc.

> > > >

> > > > But this isn't a singular class game is it?

> > >

> > > I wrote reply to this, but I probably accidentally overwritten it by another reply.

> > >

> > > All classes but warrior were balanced around 10 second weapon swap since 2012. It is true that every class would benefit from 5 second weapon swap, BUT you are forgetting that all those classes have their competetive builds with 10 second weapon swap and no one complains about that.

> > > Warrior on the other hand has all of those competetive builds (with maybe 1-2 exceptions if we consider all gamemodes) having 5 second weapon swap.

> > > Since warrior does not have certain things, e.g. instant ports, etc, which other classes have, it is inappropriate to bring other classes into this discussion. Conditions are different, every class has different mechanics and ways of dealing with situations. I want to discuss how the change would affect warrior, not other classes, this is warrior subforum after all.

> > >

> >

> > There is tons of complaints about every class and it's abilities. You can't just say: well see here, they work fine without 5 second weapon swap. No other class gets the opportunity to use 5 second weapons swap with a trait line like Discipline like warrior. I guarantee you, if they could, they would. There is 2 classes which would directly benefit more from having this than warrior.

> >

> > Warrior has those competitive Discipline builds because 5 second weapons swap is insanely strong (especially as far as access and flexibility to use weapon skills goes). On top of the fact that Discipline as trait line is very strong. If Discipline wasn't this strong, there would be more variety in builds. Thus we arrive at the core issue: Discipline as a trait line could be considered to strong. The way to deal with this is not giving Fast Hands as base line (and thus making Discipline even stronger). An alternative would be to tone down Discipline or remove Fast Hands entirely. There is multiple venues to reach equilibrium.

> >

> > I still don't agree that warrior is balanced around 5 second weapon swap. None of the cool downs would suggest this. Neither do cool downs of other classes suggest they are balanced around 10 second weapon swap. The most realistic assumption is: all classes are designed around 10 second weapon swap, while warrior has the ability to reduce this to 5 seconds which is taken into consideration as benefit of taking a specific trait line.

>

> They can just replace the trait with something like 1 second fury on weapon swap? **Nobody asked for an OP replacement? ** They could leave it blank.

>

> Also, the only weapons that can be played without baseline fasthands are GS and Axe (most of the time together as well)

>

> Would you rather have them buff Mace and Hammer attack speed and end up with something portentially catastrophic? LOL.

>

> Key word on nobody asked for an OP replacement trait assuming that baseline fast hands happen.

>

> The other thing is.. why should I have to use discipline so that I can cancel Hammer F1 or Axe F1 more often than if I didn't use discipline? The weapon cancel (aka fake-outs) on those leap burst skills shouldn't be discipline exclusive, what's wrong about making those exclusive to ALL warrior combinations?

>

> What we are trying to do is not touch the already decent discipline builds, but maybe incentivize other combinations as well. Okay you can say just buff the other trait lines, but here's the catch I would rather not have Arms have the 100% F1 burst 100% crit chance turn into a minor for example, THAT would be potentially catastrophic.

>

> What are you so scared of again when baseline fasthands can be EXECUTED CORRECTLY?

 

You do realize that there is stuff like Fast Hands for literally every class out there, I named a few earlier. There is a ton of mechanics and limitations in place which are designed the way they are for a reason. Many often being intentionally disruptive or not available without investing into them (aka devoting to a trait line).

 

It's called balance.

 

As far as base line Fast Hands only being playable on only GS and axe. Welcome to literally EVERY single other class in this game. Every class gets to wait on weapon skill cool downs even when the weapon swap is not available. So either start making a case for 5 second weapons swap for every class, or accept that it will remain a feature of a trait line with opportunity cost associated with it.

 

As far as scared, hilarious. I would love to see warrior players actually address issues which CAN or should be changed instead of chasing this white whale. Why is someone who advocates for a reasonable approach automatically scared? You did read that I play warrior too right?