Discipline (more specifically, "Fast Hands")

[Edge.8724]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > imo fast hands baseline or not won't change much. discipline on it's whole is just to good not to take

> >

> > t1-warrior sprint, both pve and pvp meta you can't juist ignore immo cleanses and/or +7% dmg modifier

> > t2-double standards, pve meta warrior needs all the bosts it can get to compensate it's own lower dps

> > t2-brawlers recovery, no warrior runs without this

> > t3-axe mastery, pve meta and one of the largest dps increases

> > t3-burst mastery, pvp meta

> >

> > both in pve, or pvp i can't see myself without those traits at all.

> >

> > discipline and strenght are, and should, allways be taken regardless of baseline fast hands

> >

> > the issue is the other traitlines like arms are underperforming and not worth taking i'd so very much see arms become a duelist traitline, while strenght becomes the powerhouse traitline.

> >

> > some suggestions:

> >

> > t1 minor -furious burst: using a burst skill grants fury. fury increases ferocity by 150

> > t1-opportunist: cast lesser throw bola upon disabling, or hitting a disabled target. (4 seconds immobilize, no more fury 16 secs cd if traited with peak performance)

> >

> > t2 minor- deep strikes: deal increased damage on target for each unique condition it suffers (0.5 or 1% per condition)

> > t2-unsuspecting foe: reduce bonus crit chance from 50% to 10-15%. add +25% increased damage to disabled targets.

> >

> > t3 minor -bloodlust: merge the effect with furious,gain a stacking damage buff upon succesfully critting a target suffering from the bleed condition (1% condi and power dmg per stack, max stacks 10 duration 5 secs)

> > t3- burst precision: upon succesfully landing a burst skill, gain 50 precision and 50 ferocity for 10 seconds (stackable to 5 stacks)

> >

> > ^ that would make me pick arms

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> ^^^^ lol it was even on the first page, and the only reply it got was from our friend cryorion.9532 who only replied to the first line, complelty ignoring all the rest, then complains about people not reading his wall of texts and answering to it all....irony

>

> do i DEMAND all of these changes i made? no

> even 1 or two of those would allready be a step in the right direction.

>

> dagger/shield + greatsword

>

> str/arms/spellbreaker with my variant of "burst precision" and "opportunist" would make for a mean build, without baseline fast hands

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAoeRjMdQZH25BGeApIWICMjAQEonhHkPyP5jHQDY5B-jpBHQBB8EAIujAAAOEAfY/h8VGohPAAA

>

> you would get:

> -more soft cc and opportunity to land your bursts due to "opportunist (lesser throw bolas) can't dodge if you can't move

> -more raw stats from burst precision (would stack with attackers insight), making arms warrior even pve valid

 

I really like that Arms suggestion here. Looks balanced and a lot more enjoyable.

 

I would largely prefer to have this change than any other at this point.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> Except that is not balance, that is buffing and power creep. By the very act of making Fast Hands base line you are increasing the output of Discipline (gains an additional trait) keeping it as still strongest trait line. While at the same time creating further disparity with other classes by introducing base line 5 second weapon swap for 1 class.

 

You will get buffing and power creep by improving underperforming traits/traitlines, too and by literally any improvement of anything in game, so... what exactly are you trying to achieve with this statement?

Again, it is pure speculation if Discipline is going to be any better, it only depends on what the new minor trait will be. **Hence, Anet could even split minor grandmaster trait Versatile Power (Gain might on weapon swap. Burst skills recharge 15% faster.) and make it as replacement for current Fast Hands.** = nothing will change for Discipline traitline at all. Feel free to give suggestions anytime.

What disparity with other classes? Currently vast majority of people are fighting against 5 second weapon swap builds. Also, that is exactly the point. Every class is special. What is wrong with warrior having 5 second weapon swap baseline as "masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle"?

Again, if powercreep is the issue, then let's discuss which exact builds are going to be too strong, in detail.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > Except that is not balance, that is buffing and power creep. By the very act of making Fast Hands base line you are increasing the output of Discipline (gains an additional trait) keeping it as still strongest trait line. While at the same time creating further disparity with other classes by introducing base line 5 second weapon swap for 1 class.

>

> You will get buffing and power creep by improving underperforming traits/traitlines, too and by literally any improvement of anything in game, so... what exactly are you trying to achieve with this statement?

 

Unused trait lines which replace a used trait line is not power creep. The **total power output of the class doesn't change** if balanced. How can you even suggest something like this?

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> Again, it is pure speculation if Discipline is going to be any better, it only depends on what the new minor trait will be. **Hence, Anet could even split minor grandmaster trait Versatile Power (Gain might on weapon swap. Burst skills recharge 15% faster.) and make it as replacement for current Fast Hands.** = nothing will change for Discipline traitline at all. Feel free to give suggestions anytime.

 

No, it is not speculation. It is simple logic. The amount of how much better Discipline becomes might be speculation, but not the fact that it would become better without any other change accompanying the Fast Hands base line change. That should be self evident.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> What disparity with other classes? Currently vast majority of people are fighting against 5 second weapon swap builds. Also, that is exactly the point. Every class is special. What is wrong with warrior having 5 second weapon swap baseline as "masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle"?

> Again, if powercreep is the issue, then let's discuss which exact builds are going to be too strong, in detail.

 

You want to know the disparity to other classes? Right now all classes are base line balanced and designed around 10 second weapon swap. Once Fast Hands becomes a base line feature this turns into 8 classes being created around 10 second weapons swap and 1 class around 5 seconds.

 

This is fundamentals, not once certain traits are chosen. Stop skipping steps. You keep skipping to the end of the balance process because you WANT to ommit and ignore the possible balance problems such a change could cause.

[Zexanima.7851]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > Except that is not balance, that is buffing and power creep. By the very act of making Fast Hands base line you are increasing the output of Discipline (gains an additional trait) keeping it as still strongest trait line. While at the same time creating further disparity with other classes by introducing base line 5 second weapon swap for 1 class.

> >

> > You will get buffing and power creep by improving underperforming traits/traitlines, too and by literally any improvement of anything in game, so... what exactly are you trying to achieve with this statement?

>

> Unused trait lines which replace a used trait line is not power creep. The **total power output of the class doesn't change** if balanced. How can you even suggest something like this?

>

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > Again, it is pure speculation if Discipline is going to be any better, it only depends on what the new minor trait will be. **Hence, Anet could even split minor grandmaster trait Versatile Power (Gain might on weapon swap. Burst skills recharge 15% faster.) and make it as replacement for current Fast Hands.** = nothing will change for Discipline traitline at all. Feel free to give suggestions anytime.

>

> No, it is not speculation. It is simple logic. The amount of how much better Discipline becomes might be speculation, but not the fact that it would become better without any other change accompanying the Fast Hands base line change. That should be self evident.

 

Then we should nerf Discipline along with making FH baseline, seems fair to me. Maybe tune back warrior's sprint by removing the immob break and reducing the movement speed and change Versatile Power to only grant burst recharge reduction on you next burst if you land a burst.

>

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > What disparity with other classes? Currently vast majority of people are fighting against 5 second weapon swap builds. Also, that is exactly the point. Every class is special. What is wrong with warrior having 5 second weapon swap baseline as "masters of weaponry who rely on speed, strength, toughness, and heavy armor to survive in battle"?

> > Again, if powercreep is the issue, then let's discuss which exact builds are going to be too strong, in detail.

>

> You want to know the disparity to other classes? Right now all classes are base line balanced and designed around 10 second weapon swap. Once Fast Hands becomes a base line feature this turns into 8 classes being created around 10 second weapons swap and 1 class around 5 seconds.

 

This is incorrect. All professions are balanced around 10 second swap, except warrior. It currently uses 5 second weapon swap in every build and is relatively balanced.

 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> If non-Discipline builds worked well as @"Obtena.7952" says, we would see much higher usage of those builds across the whole game. But we are not.

 

Big ??? right here as I sit and read this ... now your resorting to claiming I said things never said ... that's just another tick in the dishonest gun barrel for you.

 

I never made any claims how well or not well non-Discipline builds work. In fact, I think it's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT that anyone's subjective opinion about the performance of non-Discipline builds has any bearing on the discussion of baseline FH.

 

I've seen nothing that indicates why all non-Disc builds need improvement, how you know baseline FH will do that and why baseline FH is the best way to make all non-Discpline builds better.

[cryorion.9532]

@"Cyninja.2954"

 

"Unused trait lines which replace a used trait line is not power creep. The **total power output of the class doesn't change** if balanced. How can you even suggest something like this?"

 

Oh, so suddenly powercreep is "power output" only? Hmm... contrary to what Obtena said before.

How Fast Hands baseline is not going to replace unused traitlines with used ones when it clearly opens up new build possibilities? You are claiming that there would be powercreep = too strong/overpowered builds (even though without providing specifics to back up your claim) and yet you imply that FH baseline would not make Discipline traitline to be replaced with unused traitlines.

___

"No, it is not speculation. It is simple logic. The amount of how much better Discipline becomes might be speculation, but not the fact that it would become better without any other change accompanying the Fast Hands base line change. That should be self evident."

 

It is speculation and your "simple logic" is not working here :) Just admit it that your argument was speculative "what if the new minor trait will be too significant and too good = Discipline traitline will be even stronger = powercreep". This was not based on anything specific at all.

___

"You want to know the disparity to other classes? Right now all classes are base line balanced and designed around 10 second weapon swap. Once Fast Hands becomes a base line feature this turns into 8 classes being created around 10 second weapons swap and 1 class around 5 seconds."

 

Where are you heading with this? Is this "Other classes don't have 5 second weapon swap, so warrior can't have it either" mentality? Or what exactly?

Or you imply that warrior was balanced around 10 second weapon swap and that is why all competetive builds have 5 second weapon swap?

Warrior is the only class balanced after all those years ALSO around 5 second weapon swap if not mostly around 5 second weapon swap because obviously, warrior had access to shorter weapon swap since 2012.

___

"This is fundamentals, not once certain traits are chosen. Stop skipping steps. You keep skipping to the end of the balance process because you WANT to ommit and ignore the possible balance problems such a change could cause."

 

Oh really? If you claim this, then I am sure you can provide precise examples. I am not skipping steps, I am not ignoring possible balance problems. YOU are avoiding discussing them in detail WHICH IS CRUCIAL for this discussion.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > If non-Discipline builds worked well as @"Obtena.7952" says, we would see much higher usage of those builds across the whole game. But we are not.

>

> Big ??? right here as I sit and read this ... now your resorting to claiming I said things never said ... that's just another tick in the dishonest gun barrel for you.

>

> I never made any claims how well or not well non-Discipline builds work. In fact, I think it's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT that anyone's subjective opinion about the performance of non-Discipline builds has any bearing on the discussion of baseline FH.

>

> I've seen nothing that indicates why all non-Disc builds need improvement, how you know baseline FH will do that and why baseline FH is the best way to make all non-Discpline builds better.

 

"and nothing I've seen indicates all non-Discipline builds need improvement, that FH will do that or that it's even the best way to make those improvements"

You make me sound like my way, this alternative, is the only truth and best way to improve things. While I only argue why FH baseline is good way to improve builds and round whole warrior class.

 

"No, because it's no value as long as you haven't got good reasons to make FH baseline. You can discuss how awesome it would help builds all you want, but that's not meaningful if there isn't a reason to do it. Making things better isn't a reason to buff something, PERIOD. It's trivial. You have to provide reasons why these things NEED to be better in the first place, then explain why FH baseline is the best way you think it can be done. None of that happening here."

See how you argue? Exactly what you say that I do, you do.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> i didn't create powercreep so i didn't have to discuss it

> as you say so yourself, the real solution is

 

> 1) nerfing the good traitline (discipline) to be on par with the rest

> 2) buffing the underused traitlines to be on par with the rest

 

" i didn't create powercreep so i didn't have to discuss it" That is very ignorant statement. How are you so sure you are not going to create powercreep?

From your first post on page 1, you suggest directly damage modifier buffs, stat buffs and other things that DIRECTLY increase powercreep. Did you think about the other trait/traitline synergies when coming up with such suggestions? A 25% damage bonus on disabled enemies? How is that going to interact with Strength traitline with core warrior (Str, Arm,Dis)? Merciless Hammer + another 25% damage bonus on disabled foes... but you "didn't create any powercreep" yeah ;)

 

Also, by the logic of others, you are increasing powercreep because you are buffing something. Unless those people suddenly specify that powercreep only counts for "total power output of the class" so it conveniently fits their otherwise flawed argument.

Why do you think I want @"Obtena.7952" and @"Cyninja.2954" and others who claim the powercreep would be real to discuss precise examples where exactly they think would powercreep arise? Generalized and vague "everywhere" is not enough to back up their big arguments ;)

Also, you forgot 3rd option which is discussed here the most (and is also in the name of this thread), FH baseline which also improves all non-Discipline builds and possibly make some of them competetive. We all know that not all builds are going to be miraculously optimal, competetive or strong enough. Further adjustments may be required. I never said that FH baseline itself is going to fix all problems forever and that it is the best way to fix issues, even though @"Obtena.7952" keeps saying it.

Where did I say that? By arguing around how it would improve non-Discipline builds? But arguing that something is good to improve this and that does not mean that my idea is the best and "the only truth" as he/she claims :)

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > If non-Discipline builds worked well as @"Obtena.7952" says, we would see much higher usage of those builds across the whole game. But we are not.

> >

> > Big ??? right here as I sit and read this ... now your resorting to claiming I said things never said ... that's just another tick in the dishonest gun barrel for you.

> >

> > I never made any claims how well or not well non-Discipline builds work. In fact, I think it's COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT that anyone's subjective opinion about the performance of non-Discipline builds has any bearing on the discussion of baseline FH.

> >

> > I've seen nothing that indicates why all non-Disc builds need improvement, how you know baseline FH will do that and why baseline FH is the best way to make all non-Discpline builds better.

>

> "and nothing I've seen indicates all non-Discipline builds need improvement, that FH will do that or that it's even the best way to make those improvements"

> You make me sound like my way, this alternative, is the only truth and best way to improve things. While I only argue why FH baseline is good way to improve builds and round whole warrior class.

>

> "No, because it's no value as long as you haven't got good reasons to make FH baseline. You can discuss how awesome it would help builds all you want, but that's not meaningful if there isn't a reason to do it. Making things better isn't a reason to buff something, PERIOD. It's trivial. You have to provide reasons why these things NEED to be better in the first place, then explain why FH baseline is the best way you think it can be done. None of that happening here."

> See how you argue? Exactly what you say that I do, you do.

 

I don't get your response to me ... I'm simply asking you don't put words into my mouth, then use them against the people that agree with what I'm saying. It's not clever and it's not subtle either. If your point is strong enough to stand on it's own, then make it without these sorry attempts to pit people against each other with your misunderstanding of what is being said.

 

Those quotes you posted there are NOT claims about how well or not well Discipline builds work, so my point still stands ... I never said anything about how well or poorly ANY builds perform in fact. If you lack the comprehension to have an honest discussion with people ... then don't.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> If you lack the comprehension to have an honest discussion with people ... then don't.

 

I asked you many times, you know what, and now you mention honest discussion? That you avoid answering crucial parts because you are unable to? In one reply, you said that there would be powercreep. I ask for specifics, then you say it is irrelevant and you were not the one who came up with it first...

You made one of my statements to look like "paradox" when in reality, it is not at all. It was just pulled out of context and incomplete.

 

If you want honest discussion, then start supporting your claims with actual, precise, profession related statements (as asked), not vague and generalized claims that you think are generally accepted "truth". It is essential to think about FH baseline from warrior point of view to see and realize how it really is going to affect all builds, what it is going to cause and what not.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > i didn't create powercreep so i didn't have to discuss it

> > as you say so yourself, the real solution is

>

> > 1) nerfing the good traitline (discipline) to be on par with the rest

> > 2) buffing the underused traitlines to be on par with the rest

>

> " i didn't create powercreep so i didn't have to discuss it" That is very ignorant statement. How are you so sure you are not going to create powercreep?

> From your first post on page 1, you suggest directly damage modifier buffs, stat buffs and other things that DIRECTLY increase powercreep. Did you think about the other trait/traitline synergies when coming up with such suggestions? A 25% damage bonus on disabled enemies? How is that going to interact with Strength traitline with core warrior (Str, Arm,Dis)? Merciless Hammer + another 25% damage bonus on disabled foes... but you "didn't create any powercreep" yeah ;)

>

> Also, by the logic of others, you are increasing powercreep because you are buffing something. Unless those people suddenly specify that powercreep only counts for "total power output of the class" so it conveniently fits their otherwise flawed argument.

> Why do you think I want @"Obtena.7952" and @"Cyninja.2954" and others who claim the powercreep would be real to discuss precise examples where exactly they think would powercreep arise? Generalized and vague "everywhere" is not enough to back up their big arguments ;)

> Also, you forgot 3rd option which is discussed here the most (and is also in the name of this thread), FH baseline which also improves all non-Discipline builds and possibly make some of them competetive. We all know that not all builds are going to be miraculously optimal, competetive or strong enough. Further adjustments may be required. I never said that FH baseline itself is going to fix all problems forever and that it is the best way to fix issues, even though @"Obtena.7952" keeps saying it.

> Where did I say that? By arguing around how it would improve non-Discipline builds? But arguing that something is good to improve this and that does not mean that my idea is the best and "the only truth" as he/she claims :)

 

obviously i thought about trait synergies, that's the whole point of a build....to have a synergy

we reached a new milestone tho, while previously hammer was neglected because to slow/to telepgraphic now suddenly you bring it up as OP

 

did we just reach "build diversity" without baseline fast hands? *high five*

 

also you havet the wrong definition of powercreep

powercreep: buffinf something that is allready good, to a next level with possibilities of interrupting balance

buffing: increasing something underused/not used at all to be at competitive level

 

i'm pretty sure what i did was the last one, since no healthy being would run arms in the current state, unless they are a masochist and live the gunflame-meme

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > If you lack the comprehension to have an honest discussion with people ... then don't.

>

> I asked you many times, you know what, and now you mention honest discussion? That you avoid answering crucial parts because you are unable to?

 

No, I avoid answering your questions because I don't see how they are relevant to the conversation as long as the concerns I raised stay unaddressed. As I've said, there isn't a point to go toe to toe with you about specific build impacts if you can't even show that all non-discipline builds need improvement, FH will accomplish that and it's the best way to make that improvement. Nit picking the large number of build combos and the impact that EACH one has with or without FH vs any number of infinite other changes that could be made to them is a ridiculous approach to the discussion ... and simply not the way to go about justifying FH baseline.

 

Regardless ... do not quote me, misinterpret or misunderstand what I'm saying and use that against people that agree with me. It's dishonest. Make your text walls, whatever. Don't misconstrue my clear and succinct statements ... and I advise you don't do it to anyone else either.

 

 

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> obviously i thought about trait synergies, that's the whole point of a build....to have a synergy

> we reached a new milestone tho, while previously hammer was neglected because to slow/to telepgraphic now suddenly you bring it up as OP

> did we just reach "build diversity" without baseline fast hands? *high five*

 

Yes, let's buff traits so hammer can now deal Eviscerate numbers, but "you don't create powercreep so you don't have to discuss it".

 

Or the powercreep is accepteable now, that is not the kind of powercreep that matters?

 

With your reworked Arms traitline, you just made another Strength traitline that also improves(?) condition damage. Are condition builds now going to be useful in PvP/WvW?

Another thing, you did not solve an issue with Discipline traitline. Discipline will still remain mandatory for competetive builds. How is new Arms suppose to make people use non-Discipline builds? Or you still want Discipline to be backbone of every competetive build?

What does your reworked Arms traitline focus on? Damage modifiers? We already got Strength/Discipline for that. Condi damage? It is pretty underwhelming for a competetive condition build.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> As long as the concerns I raised stay unaddressed, then as I've said, there isn't a point to go toe to toe with you about specific build impacts.

 

What concerns? I already replied to your 3 points stated before. We can try again.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > As long as the concerns I raised stay unaddressed, then as I've said, there isn't a point to go toe to toe with you about specific build impacts.

>

> What concerns? I already replied to your 3 points stated before. We can try again.

 

No, we are good. Your reply was a failure to understand the issues I raised. I don't think any amount of trying would accomplish you knowing why this idea is so inappropriate for the reasons you state to make it.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > obviously i thought about trait synergies, that's the whole point of a build....to have a synergy

> > we reached a new milestone tho, while previously hammer was neglected because to slow/to telepgraphic now suddenly you bring it up as OP

> > did we just reach "build diversity" without baseline fast hands? *high five*

>

> Yes, let's buff traits so hammer can now deal Eviscerate numbers, but "you don't create powercreep so you don't have to discuss it".

>

> Or the powercreep is accepteable now, that is not the kind of powercreep that matters?

>

> With your reworked Arms traitline, you just made another Strength traitline that also improves(?) condition damage. Are condition builds now going to be useful in PvP/WvW?

> Another thing, you did not solve an issue with Discipline traitline. Discipline will still remain mandatory for competetive builds. How is new Arms suppose to make people use non-Discipline builds? Or you still want Discipline to be backbone of every competetive build?

> What does your reworked Arms traitline focus on? Damage modifiers? We already got Strength/Discipline for that. Condi damage? It is pretty underwhelming for a competetive condition build.

 

any possible argument is herby doomed

when provided with alternatives you disregard them because it's not what you want to hear.

not that i hear you saying what needs to be removed other then "i want baseline fasthands, and i won't settle for less"

 

maybe you need to quit gaming, and go in the poetry, there you can have all the monologues you want

 

newsflash: berserker was never condi orientated, they are a hybrid. fully condi doesn't work, fully power doesn't work

only way for it to work, is if anothetr traitline also becomes hybrid, which arms is far from

[cryorion.9532]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > As long as the concerns I raised stay unaddressed, then as I've said, there isn't a point to go toe to toe with you about specific build impacts.

> >

> > What concerns? I already replied to your 3 points stated before. We can try again.

>

> No, we are good. Your reply was a failure to understand the issues I raised. I don't think any amount of trying would accomplish you knowing why this idea is so inappropriate for the reasons you state to make it.

 

And even now you don't bother to specifically explain, how, where, why. You do what you say that I do.

Well, ok. If you don't want the discussion to advance, then just dismiss everything thrown at you while being narrow-minded, vague and nonspecific.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> @"Cyninja.2954"

>

> "Unused trait lines which replace a used trait line is not power creep. The **total power output of the class doesn't change** if balanced. How can you even suggest something like this?"

>

> Oh, so suddenly powercreep is "power output" only? Hmm... contrary to what Obtena said before.

> How Fast Hands baseline is not going to replace unused traitlines with used ones when it clearly opens up new build possibilities? You are claiming that there would be powercreep = too strong/overpowered builds (even though without providing specifics to back up your claim) and yet you imply that FH baseline would not make Discipline traitline to be replaced with unused traitlines.

> ___

 

Oh come on. If you are going to go full retard I'll not bother any more. The absence of a comment on something does not mean it's not present. You want me to explain in detail which types of power creep are possible? Even though this has already been mentioned and explained in this very thread? Power creep can come in many different forms. This comment alone makes me believe you are by now simply trolling.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> "No, it is not speculation. It is simple logic. The amount of how much better Discipline becomes might be speculation, but not the fact that it would become better without any other change accompanying the Fast Hands base line change. That should be self evident."

>

> It is speculation and your "simple logic" is not working here :) Just admit it that your argument was speculative "what if the new minor trait will be too significant and too good = Discipline traitline will be even stronger = powercreep". This was not based on anything specific at all.

> ___

 

It's simple math. Adding something is always an increase. Without ANY other balance changes and simply making Fast Hands base line while replacing the missing trait with ANYTHING you add. That's called following a rational and logic path of reasoning.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> "You want to know the disparity to other classes? Right now all classes are base line balanced and designed around 10 second weapon swap. Once Fast Hands becomes a base line feature this turns into 8 classes being created around 10 second weapons swap and 1 class around 5 seconds."

>

> Where are you heading with this? Is this "Other classes don't have 5 second weapon swap, so warrior can't have it either" mentality? Or what exactly?

> Or you imply that warrior was balanced around 10 second weapon swap and that is why all competetive builds have 5 second weapon swap?

> Warrior is the only class balanced after all those years ALSO around 5 second weapon swap if not mostly around 5 second weapon swap because obviously, warrior had access to shorter weapon swap since 2012.

 

No, warrior is balanced around having to take a trait line which reduces weapon swap to 5 seconds. The fact that said trait line is insanely strong is a different issue.

 

You have not yet shown, nor will you be able to show, that all of the warrior traits, skills and abilities are balanced around a base line 5 second weapon swap. Given how there is meta builds in other game modes which make no use of Discipline at that is a dead give away, but even without that it would be very hard to prove.

 

As is, all classes are balanced around a 10 second base line weapon swap, because that is what is present and has been present for nearly 7 years. Further enforced by the introduction of the Warrior rune which demonstrates that Arenanet believe that Warrior could benefit from faster weapon swap when not taking Discipline.

 

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> ___

> "This is fundamentals, not once certain traits are chosen. Stop skipping steps. You keep skipping to the end of the balance process because you WANT to ommit and ignore the possible balance problems such a change could cause."

>

> Oh really? If you claim this, then I am sure you can provide precise examples. I am not skipping steps, I am not ignoring possible balance problems. YOU are avoiding discussing them in detail WHICH IS CRUCIAL for this discussion.

 

I have so far tried to give an exact description of my thought process which I believe is well founded in reason and logic. I can't say the same for your argumentation. Good day sir.

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> any possible argument is herby doomed

> when provided with alternatives you disregard them because it's not what you want to hear.

> not that i hear you saying what needs to be removed other then "i want baseline fasthands, and i won't settle for less"

>

> maybe you need to quit gaming, and go in the poetry, there you can have all the monologues you want

>

> newsflash: berserker was never condi orientated, they are a hybrid. fully condi doesn't work, fully power doesn't work

> only way for it to work, is if anothetr traitline also becomes hybrid, which arms is far from

 

I asked a lot of questions about your suggestion. So please read them and answer to them if you want.

Also, what about the powercreep part? Please, don't avoid that one :) Or is it ok now to significantly increase powercreep for core warrior, that would use Strenght, Arms and Discipline and get all those sweet damage modifiers? Is that build variety warrior needs? More damage? Yes for PvE DPS build, but what about PvP/WvW?

Berserker is pure condition oriented as Condi Berserker for raids. The hybrid may work in WvW, but if it would be really that good, you would see way more people running it everywhere else.

 

Also, you should be aware that I take you with grain of salt after what you claimed to be truth in your thread with weapon sigils and 5 second weapon swap. I originally wanted to ignore you, but you posted suggestions which I asked. I am just expressing my opinion on them and asking a lot of questions :)

I don't reject your suggestion because I am biased towards FH baseline, but because I don't find it thought through enough.

 

You should propose also Tactics traitline rework and better synergy between non-Discipline traitlines so Discipline becomes optional, not mandatory :) if you want to do things the other alternative way.

[melandru.3876]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"melandru.3876" said:

> > any possible argument is herby doomed

> > when provided with alternatives you disregard them because it's not what you want to hear.

> > not that i hear you saying what needs to be removed other then "i want baseline fasthands, and i won't settle for less"

> >

> > maybe you need to quit gaming, and go in the poetry, there you can have all the monologues you want

> >

> > newsflash: berserker was never condi orientated, they are a hybrid. fully condi doesn't work, fully power doesn't work

> > only way for it to work, is if anothetr traitline also becomes hybrid, which arms is far from

>

> I asked a lot of questions about your suggestion. So please read them and answer to them if you want.

> Also, what about the powercreep part? Please, don't avoid that one :) Or is it ok now to significantly increase powercreep for core warrior, that would use Strenght, Arms and Discipline and get all those sweet damage modifiers? Is that build variety warrior needs? More damage? Yes for PvE DPS build, but what about PvP/WvW?

> Berserker is pure condition oriented as Condi Berserker for raids. The hybrid may work in WvW, but if it would be really that good, you would see way more people running it everywhere else.

>

> Also, you should be aware that I take you with grain of salt after what you claimed to be truth in your thread with weapon sigils and 5 second weapon swap. I originally wanted to ignore you, but you posted suggestions which I asked. I am just expressing my opinion on them and asking a lot of questions :)

> I don't reject your suggestion because I am biased towards FH baseline, but because I don't find it thought through enough.

>

> You should propose also Tactics traitline rework and better synergy between non-Discipline traitlines so Discipline becomes optional, not mandatory :) if you want to do things the other alternative way.

 

if you really believe that on weapon swap trait serious, then i don't know

the bait was beyond obvious, and even then it wasn't even a complete lie

 

you know why they changed the sigils?

because previously you could stack a superior sigil on 1 weapon set, and 1 major sigil on the other so yes you could proc energy/hydromancy every 5 seconds with fast hands

 

and more and more if you are willing to google

 

previously major and superior sigils were seen as "unique" later on, they changed that and included the name-part so minor, major and superior all shared the same name

 

 

if they make a sigil change as drastically as this, just because warrior fast hands was getting more benefits then intended, what indicator does that give you about how "powercreep" it would have been, if it was baseline?

 

food for thoughts

[cryorion.9532]

@"Cyninja.2954"

The only thing I will comment on is that splitting Versatile Power into two minor traits adds nothing. I even highlighted it in my pverious reply, but I guess it is easier to ignore than accept. Who says we cannot balance additional things after making FH baseline?

Bye o/

[cryorion.9532]

> @"melandru.3876" said:

> if you really believe that on weapon swap trait serious, then i don't know

> the bait was beyond obvious, and even then it wasn't even a complete lie

 

So how can I take you serious now? What if this all is just less obvious bait?

[Obtena.7952]

> @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"cryorion.9532" said:

> > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > As long as the concerns I raised stay unaddressed, then as I've said, there isn't a point to go toe to toe with you about specific build impacts.

> > >

> > > What concerns? I already replied to your 3 points stated before. We can try again.

> >

> > No, we are good. Your reply was a failure to understand the issues I raised. I don't think any amount of trying would accomplish you knowing why this idea is so inappropriate for the reasons you state to make it.

>

> And even now you don't bother to specifically explain, how, where, why. You do what you say that I do.

> Well, ok. If you don't want the discussion to advance, then just dismiss everything thrown at you while being narrow-minded, vague and nonspecific.

 

That's fine with me because my concerns are likely no different than the ones Anet is going to have. You don't need to convince me because I don't change the game. Don't pretend I have not explained my concerns though. Again, sounds like a lack of comprehension on your part, not that I haven't done something.

[Sobx.1758]

I'm really not sure why you guys keep trying to reason with cryorion. At this point he just looks like a bad troll -it doesn't matter what you'll say, he'll avoid whatever he wants, twist your words and then claim you said nothing for the past 8 pages of this thread. Personally, I'm done, have fun :D

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> I'm really not sure why you guys keep trying to reason with cryorion. At this point he just looks like a bad troll -it doesn't matter what you'll say, he'll avoid whatever he wants, twist your words and then claim you said nothing for the past 8 pages of this thread. Personally, I'm done, have fun :D

 

Honestly, my favourite ending to this movie is where Anet doesn't give everyone FH, then goes and nerfs Discipline because the tryhards made a case for how great it is. Not my favorite because it makes everything awesome, but because it's a great example that shows stubborn people how little they understand about the game.

 

Frankly, I don't get how the other great example with Necro - Vital Persistence change doesn't already show it to these people but hey ... I guess it's got to happen at a more personal for them to listen. I guess being angry is required to learn something. /shrug