Power Weaver - Too much Ferocity?

[DoM.8396]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @DoM.8396 said:

> > > @bOTEB.1573 said:

> > > weather d/d or s/d

> > >

> > > Here is the meta, no need to compare anything I saw enough with exotic gear on the dummy without infusions and food, self-buffed, 36k DPS average

> > >

> > > mixing Condi, power, precision, and ferocity to come closer to griever

> > >

> > > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAoYnMIClNg1MAmMAM5iFBArYT2EPDBBgCwD4eVHrv1A-jxhAQBQ7BAIV9AwY/Buq+DAOBArVJoZV+tOQA4dA8//38////LFgfKtA-e

> > Hi ~ I appreciate your input.

> >

> > 37k DPS is what a Staff Tempest can push already on a large hitbox.

>

> But not self-buffed. Though to be honest I'm taking this statement with a grain of salt. Even if weaver can do 36k self-buffed, that's most likely not intended and will be nerfed fast.

 

I too am taking it with a grain of salt. First, it's not easy to do benchmarks on golems inside heart of the mist, especially with a build that has heavy burst damage (power or burns). Second, dps meters like Arcdps could be parsing new abilities incorrectly. This is why at qT we use the in game damage counter to rank DPS.

[mygamingid.5816]

Most condi builds already run hybrid stats, because Viper's and Sinister have significant Power and Precision. Shifting from condi DPS sets to power DPS sets, you'd see a continuum from Viper > Sinister > Griever's > Berserker's. Griever's offers a great mix of condi and power damage. As we've seen with the condi Ele builds, if you can limit yourself to a particular condi, you can max its duration and minimize DPS lost to Expertise gear like Viper's.

 

Griever's and Viper's don't compete against each other, though. Viper's is too condi-oriented with Expertise. Griever's will compete with Sinister, given the benefit to each of single-condi focus. The better the power-only attacks are, the more sense Berserker's makes. The better the condi-heavy attacks are, the more sense Sinister makes. Griever's niche is in the middle somewhere, if it exists at all.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @DoM.8396 said:

> > @Arheundel.6451 said:

> > > @Jski.6180 said:

> > > The loss of overload going to cut back the dmg on weaver and ele in pve more then like i hope this ferocity makes up for it sadly power dmg is very lack luster these days. Wvw it may have a real use for staff and scpter ele and the very picked aimed sword/x.

> >

> > We hold the same hopes..like every other player who plays wvw/pvp and some pve, players who dislike raids basically. This class has been heavily nerfed already

>

> I think the loss of overloads will be hard at first but I'm confident we will fill the gap with other abilities or element switching more often like a base power elementalist would (not tempest) in order to keep the 8 second damage buff active. I am a Elementalist at heart and my biggest concern is if they add this trait and a Power Weaver blows off the charts for DPS, they will nerf us again. I'm fearful the nerfs will be done incorrectly as they have been in the past (in some areas) with Elementalist by nerfing or reworking abilities that didn't seem overpowered.

>

> If Weaver causes us, as Elementalist, to do absurd Power DPS what else will they look to nerf? We won't have Air Overload anymore to "blame" and Lava Font already has it's awkward cooldown. If they go after our weapon abilities I will be very disappointed.

>

> **Why would they go after other abilities and traits instead of Elements of Rage?** Well, because Elements of Rage is obviously designed with weaver in mind being some sort of either full condi or condi/power hybrid. I say obvious because you can see it in the design and weapon skills with Sword. This trait might be very valid if you're playing Weaver the way the developer hopes that we play it using this mixed stat ideology. The developer might want to keep from nerfing this trait so the exact idea of the Weaver continues to work and resort to bringing down the base abilities of Elementalist, or even other traits outside of Weaver. If this happens it makes it extremely difficult for other builds outside of Weaver to have a place in the meta across all game types.

>

> Let's just finish this off with - _I'm paranoid Elementalist will be nerfed/reworked past the point of where I enjoy playing it anymore. I took a hard hit when Scepter/Warhorn got drastically dropped down in its damage output._

 

Shouldn't we look at the bigger picture here?

I mean sure if something it's out of bounds then clearly it needs balancing but..the problems arise when the balancing happens in a vacuum without any consideration about the scenario itself; the ele does possibly achieve the highest DPS during raids but at what cost?

 

A cost that eles in other gamemodes cannot afford to pay and yet they will be punished, it's like stealing from the poor to give to the rich, how that makes sense?

Raid players says ele reach 37k dps ok but they forget what ele must sacrifice all sustain to reach that dmg, let me put this in numbers:

 

pre-nerf)

Raid ele sacrifice 100% sustain to reach 37k DPS

PvP/WvW ele sacrifice 40% to reach 20k DPS

All other professions sacrifice 40% to reach 30k DPS

 

after nerf)

Nerfed raid ele sacrifice 100% to reach 32k DPS

Nerfed PvP/WvW ele sacrifice 40% to reach now 16k DPS

All other professions are untouched and they still sacrifice only 40% sustain to reach 30k DPS

 

Raid players celebrate and call it a perfect balance, ele players in pvp/wvw are more screwed than before, they can't afford to sacrifice as much sustain as before because other professions now do 2x their dmg and now pvp/wvw eles can only sacrifice 20% of their sustain to stay alive but now they do 10k DPS and the enemy does 3x the dmg

 

I wonder why this class is not allowed to have the highest dmg in raid if they give up all sustain to do so when other professions give up not even half of their sustain to get a pretty close DPS number?

 

Where are the balance principles in this game?

 

 

[DoM.8396]

> @Arheundel.6451 said:

> > @DoM.8396 said:

> > > @Arheundel.6451 said:

> > > > @Jski.6180 said:

> > > > The loss of overload going to cut back the dmg on weaver and ele in pve more then like i hope this ferocity makes up for it sadly power dmg is very lack luster these days. Wvw it may have a real use for staff and scpter ele and the very picked aimed sword/x.

> > >

> > > We hold the same hopes..like every other player who plays wvw/pvp and some pve, players who dislike raids basically. This class has been heavily nerfed already

> >

> > I think the loss of overloads will be hard at first but I'm confident we will fill the gap with other abilities or element switching more often like a base power elementalist would (not tempest) in order to keep the 8 second damage buff active. I am a Elementalist at heart and my biggest concern is if they add this trait and a Power Weaver blows off the charts for DPS, they will nerf us again. I'm fearful the nerfs will be done incorrectly as they have been in the past (in some areas) with Elementalist by nerfing or reworking abilities that didn't seem overpowered.

> >

> > If Weaver causes us, as Elementalist, to do absurd Power DPS what else will they look to nerf? We won't have Air Overload anymore to "blame" and Lava Font already has it's awkward cooldown. If they go after our weapon abilities I will be very disappointed.

> >

> > **Why would they go after other abilities and traits instead of Elements of Rage?** Well, because Elements of Rage is obviously designed with weaver in mind being some sort of either full condi or condi/power hybrid. I say obvious because you can see it in the design and weapon skills with Sword. This trait might be very valid if you're playing Weaver the way the developer hopes that we play it using this mixed stat ideology. The developer might want to keep from nerfing this trait so the exact idea of the Weaver continues to work and resort to bringing down the base abilities of Elementalist, or even other traits outside of Weaver. If this happens it makes it extremely difficult for other builds outside of Weaver to have a place in the meta across all game types.

> >

> > Let's just finish this off with - _I'm paranoid Elementalist will be nerfed/reworked past the point of where I enjoy playing it anymore. I took a hard hit when Scepter/Warhorn got drastically dropped down in its damage output._

>

> Shouldn't we look at the bigger picture here?

> I mean sure if something it's out of bounds then clearly it needs balancing but..the problems arise when the balancing happens in a vacuum without any consideration about the scenario itself; the ele does possibly achieve the highest DPS during raids but at what cost?

>

> A cost that eles in other gamemodes cannot afford to pay and yet they will be punished, it's like stealing from the poor to give to the rich, how that makes sense?

> Raid players says ele reach 37k dps ok but they forget what ele must sacrifice all sustain to reach that dmg, let me put this in numbers:

>

> pre-nerf)

> Raid ele sacrifice 100% sustain to reach 37k DPS

> PvP/WvW ele sacrifice 40% to reach 20k DPS

> All other professions sacrifice 40% to reach 30k DPS

>

> after nerf)

> Nerfed raid ele sacrifice 100% to reach 32k DPS

> Nerfed PvP/WvW ele sacrifice 40% to reach now 16k DPS

> All other professions are untouched and they still sacrifice only 40% sustain to reach 30k DPS

>

> Raid players celebrate and call it a perfect balance, ele players in pvp/wvw are more screwed than before, they can't afford to sacrifice as much sustain as before because other professions now do 2x their dmg and now pvp/wvw eles can only sacrifice 20% of their sustain to stay alive but now they do 10k DPS and the enemy does 3x the dmg

>

> I wonder why this class is not allowed to have the highest dmg in raid if they give up all sustain to do so when other professions give up not even half of their sustain to get a pretty close DPS number?

>

>

> Where are the balance principles in this game?

>

>

>

 

How do you rank DPS and Sustain for PvP or WvW? How is this benchmarked? Where are your numbers coming from?

 

I think the issue here is Elementalist is suppose to be a high risk - high reward profession but you feel it's high risk - low reward? I speak only in terms of PvE because I do not play Elementalist in PvP or WvW. However in the recent balance change I feel they did buff sustain inside the Tempest and Arcane specializations... but we are getting off subject now. You're linking videos from my website but the Thief video you linked is very, very old. Please look at our [benchmarks here](https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks/ "benchmarks here") for accurate data ;)

[Arheundel.6451]

I think a better solution would be to have a specific raid balance away from the rest of the game, literally split balance.

 

From this point on, players should suggest to split balance entirely from raid, if you want to have that trait or that skill nerfed then it should be split, as it stand ele may be high risk high reward in raids but outside of that dimension the elementalist is really lacklustre , we can all agree on the fact that outside raids, an ele going around with 11k HP would get killed instantly by anything including pve mob.

 

[DoM.8396]

> @Arheundel.6451 said:

> I think a better solution would be to have a specific raid balance away from the rest of the game, literally split balance.

>

> From this point on, players should suggest to split balance entirely from raid, if you want to have that trait or that skill nerfed then it should be split, as it stand ele may be high risk high reward in raids but outside of that dimension the elementalist is really lacklustre , we can all agree on the fact that outside raids, an ele going around with 11k HP would get killed instantly by anything including pve mob.

>

 

I don't agree, and you only have 11k HP because of the stat and trait choices you make. I've done all PvE content on my Berserker Elementalist running Fire/Air/Tempest with little to no issue - I got the Aurora trinket not that long ago. You need to know the fight ahead to survive on a Elementalist; preemptively reacting to the situation at hand in order to survive. Having big damage is only going to win fights against bad to average players in PvP/WvW, whereas knowing how to mitigate incoming deadly combos and attacks wins the fight.

 

Everyone can't be in the "meta" position in every game mode, that's just the sad reality in every game. Your distaste for raids makes it seem like you coming off very biased.

 

Also, we do have PvP and PvE split skills and such. I'm not sure if you know that based on reading what you wrote.

 

I think Elementalist has its place in all game modes just like every class and of course depending on the situation you're in within that game mode (1v1 or 3v3..etc..) Elementalist has its advantages and disadvantages.. but every profession does, and if it doesn't that usually gets changed every 3 months.

 

Back to the concern at hand, just how powerful will a Power Weaver be when PoF goes live? The anticipation is killing me!

[Arheundel.6451]

> @DoM.8396 said:

> > @Arheundel.6451 said:

> > I think a better solution would be to have a specific raid balance away from the rest of the game, literally split balance.

> >

> > From this point on, players should suggest to split balance entirely from raid, if you want to have that trait or that skill nerfed then it should be split, as it stand ele may be high risk high reward in raids but outside of that dimension the elementalist is really lacklustre , we can all agree on the fact that outside raids, an ele going around with 11k HP would get killed instantly by anything including pve mob.

> >

>

> I don't agree, and you only have 11k HP because of the stat and trait choices you make. I've done all PvE content on my Berserker Elementalist running Fire/Air/Tempest with little to no issue - I got the Aurora trinket not that long ago. You need to know the fight ahead to survive on a Elementalist; preemptively reacting to the situation at hand in order to survive. Having big damage is only going to win fights against bad to average players in PvP/WvW, whereas knowing how to mitigate incoming deadly combos and attacks wins the fight.

>

> Everyone can't be in the "meta" position in every game mode, that's just the sad reality in every game. Your distaste for raids makes it seem like you coming off very biased.

>

> Also, we do have PvP and PvE split skills and such. I'm not sure if you know that based on reading what you wrote.

>

> I think Elementalist has its place in all game modes just like every class and of course depending on the situation you're in within that game mode (1v1 or 3v3..etc..) Elementalist has its advantages and disadvantages.. but every profession does, and if it doesn't that usually gets changed every 3 months.

>

> Back to the concern at hand, just how powerful will a Power Weaver be when PoF goes live? The anticipation is killing me!

 

It may be fine to run ele in pve as I've said earlier but the class is very lacklustre in PvP/WvW where is relegated to healbot, which is both boring and unrewarding to play.

 

I have joined this thread out of curiosity, I was wondering why "elemental rage" should be considered a possible issue when many other professions have a similar trait but as master or even adept in some cases. I have already posted a list of similar traits and here it is again:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retributive_Armor

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_Strike_(trait)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ferocious_(Archetype)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twin_Fangs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blood_Reaction

 

 

[lLobo.7960]

> @DoM.8396 said:

> Back to the concern at hand, just how powerful will a Power Weaver be when PoF goes live? The anticipation is killing me!

A pure power weaver will likely have problems to beat the core staff ele or tempest.

The dmg for a power ele comes from different sources depending on its weapon set:

- In staff power dmg is on fire, and going into air will reduce your dmg...

- In dagger the main power dmg comes from air auto-attack. Going into fire you will loose some power dmg for burn applications, but without condi dmg and condi duration it will be a dps loss.

- In scepter you have some good burst in fire but then needs to go back to air, with bad aa...

 

Staff Tempest overcomes this issues with air overloads. Dagger tempest with fresh air and tons of air overloads...

And both rely on conjures during dps skills downtime.

 

To get the most out of weaver dmg bonuses you need to swap constantly. Both to new attunement, and into double attunement.

The problem I see with a pure power weaver is that with the constant swap you will end up in attunements where you will loose dps.

Staff will most likely be the weapon of choice with fire the main dps attunement (so you get the bonus dmg and power)

But without overloads you will need to go back to conjures. But the window to use the conjure is much smaller as you can get back into the dmg attunement in only 4secs...

 

You could try to camp LH for the autoattacks and do a variation of the old build (with water/air/weaver) but I don't think it would be BiS...

 

TL/DR: Weaver have a lot of bonus to both condi and power dps, and rewards good attunement rotation. Focusing in one dmg source can be viable, but likely not BiS due to the way attunements focus on different dmg/condi/heal/defense.

[mygamingid.5816]

It's weird, but the best Power Weaver will likely be one that doesn't Weave much at all. Open with Fire/(Not Fire) and dual-attune to Fire at the start of combat to proc EoR. While using a conjure to gapfill your rotation, cycle back to Fire/Fire and proc EoR again. As long as you can keep EoR up, you'll maintain a 10% damage bump..