Can we have an official response please?

[musu.9205]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> > @Knox.8962 said:

> > 5/9 of the new specs are 10% or more higher DPS than any of the HoT specs. If you think they're going to stay at that level and completely invalidate any HoT spec not named Chrono, Druid or cPS, I don't really know what to say. The people who seem to think mirage isn't a dumpster fire are comparing it to the well established specs that we have good balance numbers and understanding of. I don't think Mirage is a perfect class by any means, but I feel very strongly that once they do a balance pass on all the overpowered new specs it will be a very competetive DPS spec.

> >

> > That said, there are tons of issues with Core Mesmer that I think really need to be addressed (phantasms and what they do to PvE/PvP/WvW balance within the class being #1 by a long shot), but getting the elite spec to overhaul the entire class is probably a bit much to expect. Hopefully now that they are no longer actively designing new elite specs, they'll have some time to focus on issues with the base classes.

>

> When HoT specs came out, they dwarfed core specs in DPS output despite the very official claim that they were meant to be sidegrades, not upgrades. In the very reddit you mention, one exact question was if they were going to nerf PoF specs to make them on par with HoT specs, and Irenio outright said making the DPS of all the specs similar would be "boring".

>

> I like your hope, but I've been playing this game long enough to know that their approach to balance is like throwing darts. They cycle devs in and out, and then the new devs as usual don't want to maintain a core outline for the design of specs and how they design them in terms of pve vs. pvp vs. wvw. Chapman is gone. Jon Peters, responsible for the initial mesmer in GW2 and who asked for feedback on what to do with Cry of Frustration (where nothing was eventually done to this day) is gone.

>

> Robert Hrouda, the guy who said rangers were designed with sustaoned DPS in mind is gone, and now we get Irenio saying power specs are about spike and condi specs about ramp up as if that held much meaning in instanced PvE short of garbage design like the Mordrem husks or the initial fractal armor scaling which they had to tone down to bring power specs back into relevance.

>

> Greatsword reaper has been garbage since HoT's release and nothing has been done. Power ranger has been garbage since vanilla, and nothing has been done. The deltas in performance have steadily been greater than 30% for large periods of this game's life, and somehow you seem convinced that a delta of 10% on these new specs on this new box they aim to sell will spring them into action.

>

> As I said, I'll take my own betting position over yours. These people make no real effort to balance. If they did, we would have had a proper closed beta, with public test realms regarding feedback, and every balance patch would have a feedback period with actual changes happening based on said feedback. We don't. We didn't even get a two week beta weekend this expansion. They put out this kitten of balance on release and all you have left is to swallow it because they can't even be bothered to interface with the community given they don't even feel it is their job to communicate, unlike the developers of every other major MMO.

 

and btw , people are asking for chrono nerf daily (many thought chrono is perfect tank , and guard thought by that way chrono stole their job ) if anet is unwilling to balance dps but nerf pure support class like chrono , we will have two useless elites . the large difference between class dps is the reason that unique powerful buff has to exist even tho it's not perfect game design choice . it's still better choice over dps race . but people kept talking about how powerful unique buff is unhealthy for game balance and they like to use wow as an example . they failed to see that wow has clear role : ranged dps , melee dps , melee support , ranged support , group healer , main tank healer ,tank , off tank etc , and wow classes have fair equal dps comparing to gw2 . but that's the trend for gw2 playerbase to mindlessly follow the concept they have no idea and want to delete chrono in pve once for all .

 

and they say chrono has so mcuh , cant be replaced , nerf must happen lol

 

have fun with firebrand overlord if that thing doesn't have more without investing into 3 trait lines and full boon duration gear.

sadly all we know how anet balanced the game , playing ele is safest thing to do in pve , coz it is one of most populated classes . when engi sword or spellbreaker dagger is worse in pve , if i remember correctly ele sword build could achieve 32-33k dps or so (it also has use for pvp ) , it just needs slightly buff , while things like holosmith sword is totally trash in all game mode need more attention . but whatsoever.

 

mes and engi have most bugs unfixed in game and suffered from core design for the longest time . but equal dps is boring lets buff ele dps

[Zenith.7301]

People fail to understand that the reason why chrono is so in demand is because very few people like playing them. Most people don't want to beresponsible for group distortion, positioning the boss, upkeeping quickness and alacrity on moving targets, pulling enemies, landing reflects, and then having an exclusive set of low DPS gear that's incredibly expensive and time consuming to amass only to be useful in a raid or fractal since you'll run berserker for open world anyways.

 

Phalanx Strength warrior with banners is even more broken in terms of raid buffs, but they are so easy to play, can easily swap to DPS, and don't have outsized group responsibility so far more people play them, and thus nobody waits on a PS warrior.

[Roda.7468]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> People fail to understand that the reason why chrono is so in demand is because very few people like playing them. Most people don't want to beresponsible for group distortion, positioning the boss, upkeeping quickness and alacrity on moving targets, pulling enemies, landing reflects, and then having an exclusive set of low DPS gear that's incredibly expensive and time consuming to amass only to be useful in a raid or fractal since you'll run berserker for open world anyways.

>

> Phalanx Strength warrior with banners is even more broken in terms of raid buffs, but they are so easy to play, can easily swap to DPS, and don't have outsized group responsibility so far more people play them, and thus nobody waits on a PS warrior.

 

Oh, hello reason I don't raid.

:(

[Cyninja.2954]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Zenith.7301 said:

> > Just because you keep saying that Mirage is adequate in PvE does not make it so.

>

> No, the fact that it is a strict upgrade to one of the easier builds, which was already adequate in PvE, is what I base my statement on.

>

> CondiMesmer=Adequate

> CondiMirage=CondiMesmer+a few thousand DPS

> CondiMirage=???

 

See @atlashugged.7642, it's these kind of comments which make people believe you have no clue of what you are talking.

 

1st off, condi mesmer was barely adequate in pve. It was useful on 1-2 raid boss fights and had 0 spots in fractals. Let me guess, you'll come in and say how great it is in open world pve. More on this a bit down.

 

2nd yes Mirage is an upgrade to condi mesmer, with a lot of downsides and harder rotation with rng added into it. So yes, we now do more theoretical damage. In practice though, the risk of dying barely makes up for the added dps mesmer got. Mirage is also quite selfish as far as utility goes.

 

3rd Mesmer does not exist in a vacuum. Other classes exist and get balance and changes done to them too. Most of the other classes got significant upgrades in either damage, utility or both come PoF, while having already higher damage builds pre PoF.

 

Now let's look how this translates to raid golem benchmarks:

 

Benchmarks May: https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-may-balance-patch/

Benchmakrs August: https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/

Benchmarks PoF: https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-path-of-fire/

 

Mesmer is AT BEST midfield at any given point in time. Arguably even only that with the August "short before PoF changes" balance patch. This is where mesmer dps has always been. Something any longerterm mesmer has come to terms with and knows.

 

Now you were saying something about people not having game sense and any idea how balance works? Mirror buddy, buy one.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Zenith.7301 said:

> People fail to understand that the reason why chrono is so in demand is because very few people like playing them. Most people don't want to beresponsible for group distortion, positioning the boss, upkeeping quickness and alacrity on moving targets, pulling enemies, landing reflects, and then having an exclusive set of low DPS gear that's incredibly expensive and time consuming to amass only to be useful in a raid or fractal since you'll run berserker for open world anyways.

>

> Phalanx Strength warrior with banners is even more broken in terms of raid buffs, but they are so easy to play, can easily swap to DPS, and don't have outsized group responsibility so far more people play them, and thus nobody waits on a PS warrior.

 

This, though there is more to this:

 

Mesmer is inherintly good at taking the tank role. This automatically puts a lot of more pressure and requirements on both mesmer spots compared to any damage dealer. The support mesmer has it a bit easier depending on how much work is demanded from him (distortion, portals, good quickness/alacrity uptimes).

 

Add to that our distortion mechanic, boon share and possible perma alacrity and quickness (I'm saying possible because most mesmer do not achieve these though they are not that hard to get, at least most pug mesmer don't) and our natural low dps, the sacrifice mesmer make in order to run a full support role are low (our damage is bad, might as well make it terrible and use minstrel gear to carry for example).

 

Many players do not feel the need to gear a mesmer or take the responsibility of using one in raids. I get that, I wouldn't gear a character I don't enjoy playing myself in some of the most expensive gear ingame. It's quite similar to handkiting on Deimos really. It's not hard and offers a guaranteed spot yet people don't want to play this role because it requires an extra set of gear on a select few classes and brings with it a ton of responsibility. Guess which role is the most searched for in pugs on Deimos. :/

[Kas.3509]

Why no developer wants to answer us? I'd like an answer even if it's "we're looking into this, we have many bug fixes right now but we'll try to do something about it in a month, two months etc.".

 

I played around with mirage. I found it not as bad as I thought, but its still underwhelming. I actually had SOME fun. The problem is no group will take mirage if they have anyone else in the spot. Im a PVE player, so mind that when reading my opinion.

 

The good things about mirage:

+ pretty animations

+ lack of evade animation isn't actually that bad. It takes time getting used to but it's not a bad concept. In PvP I guess it's not a insta "here os the real me"

+ retargeting of illusions on axe 3

+ lots of teleports, they're kinda short and buggy though

+ ok damage on beefy single target

 

The bad things:

- well.. bugs, obviously

- basically lack of CC

- no group utility

- poor dps and survivability vs many targets at once -> so all trash mobs. You basically cant retarged illusions fast enough because the trash obs die really fast, also they might kill you fater than you kill them because you lack CC and mass dmg. Lack of cleave.

- you're basically supposed to not shatter EVER in PVE.

- if you want to do good dmg you should not use axe 2 because it replaces 1 your phantasm and you're loosing dmg.

- axe 3 in pve is only usefull for retargeting, because you're never going to have any axe clones anyway, because they die fast and do poor dmg compared to phantasms

- longer ramp up time than any other condi spec. Not horribly long, but still... longer.

- illusions retargeting available only on axe 3, so it basically forces you to never switch mainhand weapon

- poor dmg overall compared to other specs that bring both more dmg and more utility/CC.

 

 

From the above you can see that mirage was obviously "made" to be great single damage dealer with no CC no group buffs and no group utility at all.

I'm fine with getting selfish dps spec after being buff bot on chronomancer BUT... the problem is our damage is not so good and we are forced to use only half of our specialization.

 

- scourge has higher dmg while providing shields and boon conversion for allies, having huge cleave and lots of condi cleanse

- firebrand has higher dmg while providing aegis and some quickness for allies, has more aoe and is kinda easy to play

- renegate has higher dmg while providing forever ferocity and some might to allies, has more aoe and is easy to play

- soulbeast has higher dmg, has more aoe and is easy to play.

- weaver has higher dmg, great aoe and single target options in weapons

- tempest has higher dmg, provides lots of might to team, has good survivability and is easy to play

- holismith has higher dmg, brings lots of cc, provides more condi dmg for group

 

So now... I doubt ALL these specs are OP/unbalanced right now. Some might be. I just think its mirage thats underpowered.

The truth is right now it brings no useful utility besides dmg, and the randomness of teleports may end quite bad in raids/fractals.

When playing mirage you should not use shatters in PVE, you shouldnt use axe 2, you shouldnt switch from axe mainhand ever, you have no CC and no group utility and yet have medicore dps compared to classes that bring more utility than you.

 

I'd really like to play mirage and have fun with it, but right now it lacks both damage, utility and misses some mechanic tweaks. I dont think it should be scrapped altogether like some people, but I do believe we desperately need someone at ANET to look into this.

 

 

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> 1st off, condi mesmer was barely adequate in pve. It was useful on 1-2 raid boss fights and had 0 spots in fractals. Let me guess, you'll come in and say how great it is in open world pve. More on this a bit down.

Yeah, this is where you're incorrect. I remember this discussion already happening in the "niche" thread. On theoretical DPS, condi mirage is pretty low. But on practical dps for most raid environments it was actually slightly above average. The situation for mesmer players all up to PoF was that they had the top tier support spec, highly demanded in raids, and an above average pub raiding DPS spec. PoF may have changed mesmer's relative positioning on DPS (hasn't touched its support status I'd bet), but it didn't nerf anything.

 

> Mesmer is AT BEST midfield at any given point in time. Arguably even only that with the August "short before PoF changes" balance patch. This is where mesmer dps has always been. Something any longerterm mesmer has come to terms with and knows.

> Now you were saying something about people not having game sense and any idea how balance works? Mirror buddy, buy one.

 

Do you seriously not know how game balance works? Being in the middle of the DPS rankings is a pretty good indicator of having a good balanced position. Like I said in the other thread, you won't stop whining until Mesmer has top tier DPS, and top tier support options, which would actually be unbalanced.

 

Now this isn't to say that there aren't legitimate problems with mesmer in PvE. The DPS build is relatively boring (though if you dislike boring gameplay, I have no idea why you're in MMO PvE to begin with). But your complaints hardly touch this issue, instead going straight to benchmarks, which is why I think your criticisms fall so flat.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > 1st off, condi mesmer was barely adequate in pve. It was useful on 1-2 raid boss fights and had 0 spots in fractals. Let me guess, you'll come in and say how great it is in open world pve. More on this a bit down.

> Yeah, this is where your delusion comes in. I remember this discussion already happening in the "niche" thread. On theoretical DPS, condi mirage is pretty low. But on practical dps for most raid environments it was actually slightly above average. The situation for mesmer players all up to PoF was that they had the top tier support spec, highly demanded in raids, and an above average pub raiding DPS spec. PoF may have changed mesmer's relative positioning on DPS (hasn't touched its support status I'd bet), but it didn't nerf anything.

 

The situtation pre PoF and pre August 8th was that mesmer had NO dps spec and a niche dps condi build for 1-2 bosses (and this was even worse before the signet rework befor that). You are out of your mind if you think condi mesmer was a thing before august 8th. Which I would not be suprised since you haven't actually loged any raid time on the class.

 

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> > Mesmer is AT BEST midfield at any given point in time. Arguably even only that with the August "short before PoF changes" balance patch. This is where mesmer dps has always been. Something any longerterm mesmer has come to terms with and knows.

> > Now you were saying something about people not having game sense and any idea how balance works? Mirror buddy, buy one.

>

> Do you seriously not know how game balance works? Being in the middle of the DPS rankings is a pretty good indicator of having a good balanced position. Like I said in the other thread, you won't stop whining until Mesmer has top tier DPS, and top tier support options, which would actually be unbalanced.

>

> Now this isn't to say that there aren't legitimate problems with mesmer in PvE. The DPS build is relatively boring (though if you dislike boring gameplay, I have no idea why you're in MMO PvE to begin with). But your complaints hardly touch this issue, instead going straight to benchmarks, betraying your game sense and balance ideas as bad.

 

I know very well how balance works. Now if you would actually go and get some realistic understanding of what midfield dps (which mirage is not since some of the top tier dps specs are close together and have easier rotations) with low utility means as far as viability.

 

Now please leave the mesmer forums and go back to your main class. Some of us would like to play this class in 1-2 years without issues and that would require quite a lot of fixes.

 

The legitimate problems with mesmer go beyond some gameplay staleness and are directly related with the design of the class. Sorry you find summoning 3 phantasms and autoattacking bland, me I'm more worried how the class as a whole can get work done.

 

But knowing your type and even though almost every single mesmer in this thread disagrees so far your delusions and stubborness will let you come back like a moth to flame to spread your nonsense.

 

EDIT: and since you are focused on raid logs only and haven't commented at all about fractals I'll assume you have even less knowledge of how mesmer performs there.

[Harry Foud.1935]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > 1st off, condi mesmer was barely adequate in pve. It was useful on 1-2 raid boss fights and had 0 spots in fractals. Let me guess, you'll come in and say how great it is in open world pve. More on this a bit down.

> Yeah, this is where your delusion comes in. I remember this discussion already happening in the "niche" thread. On theoretical DPS, condi mirage is pretty low. But on practical dps for most raid environments it was actually slightly above average. The situation for mesmer players all up to PoF was that they had the top tier support spec, highly demanded in raids, and an above average pub raiding DPS spec. PoF may have changed mesmer's relative positioning on DPS (hasn't touched its support status I'd bet), but it didn't nerf anything.

>

> > Mesmer is AT BEST midfield at any given point in time. Arguably even only that with the August "short before PoF changes" balance patch. This is where mesmer dps has always been. Something any longerterm mesmer has come to terms with and knows.

> > Now you were saying something about people not having game sense and any idea how balance works? Mirror buddy, buy one.

>

> Do you seriously not know how game balance works? Being in the middle of the DPS rankings is a pretty good indicator of having a good balanced position. Like I said in the other thread, you won't stop whining until Mesmer has top tier DPS, and top tier support options, which would actually be unbalanced.

>

> Now this isn't to say that there aren't legitimate problems with mesmer in PvE. The DPS build is relatively boring (though if you dislike boring gameplay, I have no idea why you're in MMO PvE to begin with). But your complaints hardly touch this issue, instead going straight to benchmarks, betraying your game sense and balance ideas as bad.

 

If you are not interested in expressing an opinion that actually has a portion of truth please leave the thread. Clearly you have no idea what you are saying. Literally everyone has a problem with Mirage yet here you are just spreding a very very wrong opinion that proves your ignorance and confuses people. The problem is not that Mirage is not the highest dps class, the problem is that the whole idea behind him is kinda useless. We focus on dmg so much because he cant do the one thing he is suppose to do which is single target dps. And don't bother talking about benchmarks cause the build you see requires to keep all phantasms alive so they can stack. Something that can happen only in PVE and does not apply to the rest of the game and makes your shatters useless. In fact the reason this build does some mediocore dmg is cause of core Mesmer traits and not Mirage at all. So PLEASE if you don't care about Mirage please leave the thread and don't spread opinions for the shake of the argument.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> The situtation pre PoF and pre August 8th was that mesmer had NO dps spec and a niche dps condi build for 1-2 bosses (and this was even worse before the signet rework befor that). You are out of your mind if you think condi mesmer was a thing before august 8th. Which I would not be suprised since you haven't actually loged any raid time on the class.

 

I don't think the time before the august 8th patch was relevant to this discussion. Mesmers were in a good place pre-pof, and

 

> I know very well how balance works. Now if you would actually go and get some realistic understanding of what midfield dps (which mirage is not since some of the top tier dps specs are close together and have easier rotations) with low utility means as far as viability.

>

> Now please leave the mesmer forums and go back to your main class. Some of us would like to play this class in 1-2 years without issues and that would require quite a lot of fixes.

>

> The legitimate problems with mesmer go beyond some gameplay staleness and are directly related with the design of the class. Sorry you find summoning 3 phantasms and autoattacking bland, me I'm more worried how the class as a whole can get work done.

>

> But knowing your type and even though almost every single mesmer in this thread disagrees so far your delusions and stubborness will let you come back like a moth to flame to spread your nonsense.

>

> EDIT: and since you are focused on raid logs only and haven't commented at all about fractals I'll assume you have even less knowledge of how mesmer performs there.

 

RE: Fractals. I haven't had any issues getting into fractals so far on my mesmer. And yes, I have played them.

 

As far as this hilarious "forum spy" accusation. It's just another indication of how toxic this particular community can be (the "pity party" I was referencing earlier). I'm not a forum spy. Mesmer is by far my most played class. 84% playtime in PvP. I have no official percentage of the PvE playtime, since I don't know how to get that, but it's closer to 100%, since all I've ever done with any other class is take 2 classes through mastery trains to get their HoT specs unlocked in case I wanted to play with them. Playtimes may change in the future as I take non-mesmer classes through world completion for legendaries, but that's all I foresee changing. Anytime I do switch to another class for some task, I always find myself lamenting that I'm not playing the mesmer at the moment.

 

Now please, restrict your criticisms to things you can prove, rather than baseless insults.

[Harry Foud.1935]

He clearly has no idea. Just stop replying to him. Hope he leaves the thread. It's just sad to see people not only to turn a blind eye to the failures some classes have but to also be an obstacle to a good discussion.

[Sojourner.4621]

There is no question that several Mirage/Mesmer bugs need to be addressed, and some of them likely will in upcoming patches... as to the comparison of the DPS on Mirage to the DPS of the other elite specs, that is stupid. It's entirely based on the most likely incorrect assumption that those elite specs are going to keep their extremely high damage through the next round of major balance changes. The old Meta hovered around 30-35k DPS for the top damage dealers, and any time a class outperformed that it was nerfed hard (Meteor shower anyone? Stacking ele burn fields no longer applying more than one tick of burning per target?). It is VERY likely that Firebrand, Scourge, Weaver, and even Dragonhunter, Beastmaster and Renegade are all going to take nerfs.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > The situtation pre PoF and pre August 8th was that mesmer had NO dps spec and a niche dps condi build for 1-2 bosses (and this was even worse before the signet rework befor that). You are out of your mind if you think condi mesmer was a thing before august 8th. Which I would not be suprised since you haven't actually loged any raid time on the class.

>

> I don't think the time before the august 8th patch was relevant to this discussion. Mesmers were in a good place pre-pof, and

 

Time before August 8th is absolutely relevenat to this disscussion. Some of us have had to deal with this classes issues for over 5 years and didn't just join in the last 4 weeks.

 

But I get how to you this might be not important, with your grand game sense and understanding of balance and all classes. Oh wait...

 

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> > I know very well how balance works. Now if you would actually go and get some realistic understanding of what midfield dps (which mirage is not since some of the top tier dps specs are close together and have easier rotations) with low utility means as far as viability.

> >

> > Now please leave the mesmer forums and go back to your main class. Some of us would like to play this class in 1-2 years without issues and that would require quite a lot of fixes.

> >

> > The legitimate problems with mesmer go beyond some gameplay staleness and are directly related with the design of the class. Sorry you find summoning 3 phantasms and autoattacking bland, me I'm more worried how the class as a whole can get work done.

> >

> > But knowing your type and even though almost every single mesmer in this thread disagrees so far your delusions and stubborness will let you come back like a moth to flame to spread your nonsense.

> >

> > EDIT: and since you are focused on raid logs only and haven't commented at all about fractals I'll assume you have even less knowledge of how mesmer performs there.

>

> RE: Fractals. I haven't had any issues getting into fractals so far on my mesmer. And yes, I have played them.

>

> As far as this hilarious "forum spy" accusation. It's just another indication of how toxic this particular community can be (the "pity party" I was referencing earlier). I'm not a forum spy. Mesmer is by far my most played class. 84% playtime in PvP. I have no official percentage of the PvE playtime, since I don't know how to get that, but it's closer to 100%, since all I've ever done with any other class is take 2 classes through mastery trains to get their HoT specs unlocked in case I wanted to play with them. Playtimes may change in the future as I take non-mesmer classes through world completion for legendaries, but that's all I foresee changing. Anytime I do switch to another class for some task, I always find myself lamenting that I'm not playing the mesmer at the moment.

>

> Now please, restrict your criticisms to things you can prove, rather than baseless insults.

 

You've played through T4 fractals and challenge modes on a damage mesmer? Wow, that would be a feat. Or are you just obscuring the fact that you went along as a support chrono, something no one is denying is very strong?

 

So what you are saying is, you lack any substantial pve experience on all classes. You enjoy trolling pve threads with your spvp experience and base all your trolling on basically nothing at all?

 

Yeah, that's prety much how your threads so far have been read to pve mesmers.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @Sojourner.4621 said:

> There is no question that several Mirage/Mesmer bugs need to be addressed, and some of them likely will in upcoming patches... as to the comparison of the DPS on Mirage to the DPS of the other elite specs, that is stupid. It's entirely based on the most likely incorrect assumption that those elite specs are going to keep their extremely high damage through the next round of major balance changes. The old Meta hovered around 30-35k DPS for the top damage dealers, and any time a class outperformed that it was nerfed hard (Meteor shower anyone? Stacking ele burn fields no longer applying more than one tick of burning per target?). It is VERY likely that Firebrand, Scourge, Weaver, and even Dragonhunter, Beastmaster and Renegade are all going to take nerfs.

 

While I agree that a retune is required, I disagree that balance changes to top tier classes now would:

 

- result in them losing substantial utility (except maybe scourge which currently has no cap to barrier sharing of multiple scourge players, something which arenanet wants to address). So even if we were 1-1 similar dps wise (which would be a huge improvement) there would still be reason to take other classes, just not as much.

- would leave Mirage unaffected. Pretty sure if the other classes take a hit, we will as well

- see any significant balance changes at all. Let's face it, the majority of the GW2 team is already working on expansion3. Bug fixes and severe disparities are the only thing we can expect

 

I dislike banking or putting wagers on maybe stuff to come. I will agree though that IF said changes are made, Mirage would be in a better spot.

[Bod.8261]

I honestly admire your persistence regarding Mirage.

Will there be bug fixes? Yes.

Will there be tooltip corrections and small number tweaks? Yes.

Will there a huge rework of Mirage? Nope.

 

The reason for that is: Mirage is "working as intented" in that there never was a intent in the first place.

Mirage never had a clear design direction, an intended role or new niche.

They designed the spec around the name and the general optical theme of a "desert nomad" and threw together random mechanics.

The end result could have been worse, but it could obviously have been much better.

[Read here about "could have been".](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/151533#Comment_151533 "Read here about "could have been".")

 

But keep posting and we might even see the most important bug fixes before the year is over.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> Time before August 8th is absolutely relevenat to this disscussion. Some of us have had to deal with this classes issues for over 5 years and didn't just join in the last 4 weeks.

>

> But I get how to you this might be not important, with your grand game sense and understanding of balance and all classes. Oh wait...

 

You aren't owed "OP time" because you had a phase where you were underpowered DPS wise. Past patches are not relevant to the current state of the meta.

 

> You've played through T4 fractals and challenge modes on a damage mesmer? Wow, that would be a feat. Or are you just obscuring the fact that you went along as a support chrono, something no one is denying is very strong?

>

> So what you are saying is, you lack any substantial pve experience on all classes. You enjoy trolling pve threads with your spvp experience and base all your trolling on basically nothing at all?

>

> Yeah, that's prety much how your threads so far have been read to pve mesmers.

 

I never obscured it. You should play chrono in fractals. I just don' think having 1 build so good it's highly sought after is a bad thing.

 

And I've been playing since the beginning of HoT. I wasn't active posting before PoF, but I do have posts from before that time. Check the old forum. I'll even link it for you.

 

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/members/atlashugged-7642/showposts

[Cyninja.2954]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > Time before August 8th is absolutely relevenat to this disscussion. Some of us have had to deal with this classes issues for over 5 years and didn't just join in the last 4 weeks.

> >

> > But I get how to you this might be not important, with your grand game sense and understanding of balance and all classes. Oh wait...

>

> You aren't owed "OP time" because you had a phase where you were underpowered DPS wise. Past patches are not relevant to the current state of the meta.

 

We are OP ever since HoT, it's called Chrono. Do expect changes to it down the line. It has nothing to do with our damage problem though and having no viable damage pve spec.

 

That was not what I was talking about though. I was refering to the multitude of conflicting design decisions and mechanics this class has. Something you might not notice as much in a spvp enviroment where our insane shatter burst and PU build was dominating the game almost since launch.

 

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> > You've played through T4 fractals and challenge modes on a damage mesmer? Wow, that would be a feat. Or are you just obscuring the fact that you went along as a support chrono, something no one is denying is very strong?

> >

> > So what you are saying is, you lack any substantial pve experience on all classes. You enjoy trolling pve threads with your spvp experience and base all your trolling on basically nothing at all?

> >

> > Yeah, that's prety much how your threads so far have been read to pve mesmers.

>

> I never obscured it. You should play chrono in fractals. I just don' think having 1 build so good it's highly sought after is a bad thing.

>

> And I've been playing since the beginning of HoT. I wasn't active posting before PoF, but I do have posts from before that time. Check the old forum. I'll even link it for you.

>

> https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/members/atlashugged-7642/showposts

 

So you'd agree that damage mesmer in fractals is useless? Great, we are getting somewhere.

[atlashugged.7642]

> @Cyninja.2954 said:

> We are OP ever since HoT, it's called Chrono. Do expect changes to it down the line. It has nothing to do with our damage problem though and having no viable damage pve spec.

 

We do have viable damage specs now though.

 

> That was not what I was talking about though. I was refering to the multitude of conflicting design decisions and mechanics this class has. Something you might not notice as much in a spvp enviroment where our insane shatter burst and PU build was dominating the game almost since launch.

 

You spend more of your posts pointing to benchmarks on golems than every discussing contradictory mechanics.

 

> So you'd agree that damage mesmer in fractals is useless? Great, we are getting somewhere.

 

The raid damage build isn't as useful in fractals yes. I don't buy your premise that this is necessarily a bad thing.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

> > We are OP ever since HoT, it's called Chrono. Do expect changes to it down the line. It has nothing to do with our damage problem though and having no viable damage pve spec.

>

> We do have viable damage specs now though.

 

Yeah, I'm just going to let this one play out and see where our class is pve wise in 4 weeks. My guess, no where in raids as damage builds.

 

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> > That was not what I was talking about though. I was refering to the multitude of conflicting design decisions and mechanics this class has. Something you might not notice as much in a spvp enviroment where our insane shatter burst and PU build was dominating the game almost since launch.

>

> You spend more of your posts pointing to benchmarks on golems than every discussing contradictory mechanics.

 

Check my history in both these as well as the old forums. I don't deem it necessary to repeat the long list of issues the class has every single time since quite frankly, ever experienced mesmer knows about them and they have been disscussed to death over and over. Even the new forums have already threads on them.

 

You on the other hand are in just about every pve thread sharing your wisdom and opinion which you have almost no basis for by your own account.

 

> @atlashugged.7642 said:

> > @Cyninja.2954 said:

>

> > So you'd agree that damage mesmer in fractals is useless? Great, we are getting somewhere.

>

> The raid damage build isn't as useful in fractals yes. I don't buy your premise that this is necessarily a bad thing.

 

I'll take that as a yes since you didn't care to share any alternative damage build for high end fractals (of which there is none by the way).

 

EDIT: and in the spirit of full disclosure, I, unlike you, actually have played most classes in pve endgame content (raids and T4 fractals) be it warrior, guardian, necromancer, revenant or mesmer as well as having played multiple of all classes to 80 to get acclimated and used to their mechanics.

[Harry Foud.1935]

To be honest I dont think we will ever get an official responce. Even if they buffed the dmg or nerf other classes, Mirage will still be a failure because he has no place to belong. They didn't think this through before they design him. Obvisously you can't rework a class just after it was launched so yeah... Guess we have to wait for next exp guys.

[Knox.8962]

> @"Harry Foud.1935" said:

> To be honest I dont think we will ever get an official responce. Even if they buffed the dmg or nerf other classes, Mirage will still be a failure because he has no place to belong. They didn't think this through before they design him. Obvisously you can't rework a class just after it was launched so yeah... Guess we have to wait for next exp guys.

It belongs as a selfish DPS spec, like a condi thief. This is a stark contrast to the chrono, which belongs almost entirely because of the ability to buff everyone around it. If the super strong PoF specs are brough down to the 33-35k range that the HoT specs were at before the expac launched, Mirage will be a perfectly viable choice for most content.

[musu.9205]

> @Knox.8962 said:

> > @"Harry Foud.1935" said:

> > To be honest I dont think we will ever get an official responce. Even if they buffed the dmg or nerf other classes, Mirage will still be a failure because he has no place to belong. They didn't think this through before they design him. Obvisously you can't rework a class just after it was launched so yeah... Guess we have to wait for next exp guys.

> It belongs as a selfish DPS spec, like a condi thief. This is a stark contrast to the chrono, which belongs almost entirely because of the ability to buff everyone around it. If the super strong PoF specs are brough down to the 33-35k range that the HoT specs were at before the expac launched, Mirage will be a perfectly viable choice for most content.

 

mirage will never be viable in fractal .

even mirage has equal dps number , it will be far worse than any other class due to longer set up time +lacking of aoe . longer set up is ok for most raid boss . but lacking of aoe will certainly make raid harder for everyone else . like entire wing 3, gors , sab , Mo, sam , trio . pretty much everything except matt and carin , yeah we all know mes is meta there . Not to mention the dps rotation has rng axe 3 which likely wipes whole raid team . why would any squad take mirage for highest risk lowest reward?

mes as dps dealer in raid is not happening , stop dreaming .

[Cantatus.4065]

> @Kas.3509 said:

 

> - illusions retargeting available only on axe 3, so it basically forces you to never switch mainhand weapon

 

Illusionary Ambush also retargets your illusions.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @Ojimaru.8970 said:

> Consider for a moment, _just a moment_, that you've spent two years working on a project. Just as you complete it, your stakeholders scream in your face, tell you to throw everything out and start over. Oh, and they want a perfect, well-packaged product in four weeks. How would _you_ respond?

 

I'm glad to see some logic and reason being applied. This is exactly correct. Can we get an official response? I doubt it, considering that we all know it would only lead to people getting more salty and imposing their own unrealistic expectations.

 

PSA - everyone should expect that it will take a good 3-4 months before Anet is through with balancing all the new especs, JUST like it was in HoT.

[Levetty.1279]

Its pretty telling that the people defending Mirage can only point to golem tests and shout about how its on the list so it must be good. A few thousand more dps on a build that is only useful on a golem and 3 raid bosses doesn't suddenly make the build good. The game is more then those 3 bosses. PvE is more then raids.

 

This isn't even considering the fact that the build is ignoring the mirrors mechanic and barely using the ambush mechanic because you can't afford to throw dodges away for attacks because you only have 2, no way to get endurance back outside of vigor and the mirrors mechanic is shit. Meaning in the one small area where it is useful all its doing is replacing the 2 condi traits from Chaos with 2 slightly better traits from Mirage. Hardly an elite spec.