LUST.7241 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Usually that's how counter-arguments go when Scouge/Spellbreaker cheese mains see "nerf my cheese" posts. The template for their reply is here: "As [your class here], the way to counter [my class here] is to completely build to counter [my class here]. Other classes need not be considered when changing build, only build to counter [my class here] and you can see why it is weak." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Majirah.5089 said: > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > > @Mikeskies.1536 said: > > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > > > > @BruceLee.5092 said: > > > > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > > > > > > @Arheundel.6451 said: > > > > > > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > > > > > > > You say not to hit spellbreaker when FC is on right? > > > > > > > > So how do you do that to mesmer clones? > > > > > > > > A spellbreaker can just go into a random teamfight and auto proc it. > > > > > > > > Don't tell me you have to tell your whole team in solo q to stop attacking the warrior when 100s of things are happening? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You can avoid FC all you want but a smart warrior can just bait you into doing that, what more in team fights? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have no idea how people can defend this that does multiple things, negates damage 100%, deals an absurd amount of damage on a 6.5 Second CD.!!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not warrior..but I can defend spellbreaker because respect to mesmer: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -can't stealth > > > > > > > -can't teleport > > > > > > > -can't be cheesed on immediate use > > > > > > > -doesn't use condi spam cheese troll build > > > > > > > -can be kited with simplistic movements > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ^This is the problems we have on the forums. > > > > > > > > > > What is the problems? What he said is 100% accurate...? > > > > > > > > Condi spam cheese troll build? you mean the Prismatic understanding? I have never seen that build since HoT > > > > > > > > Mesmer doesnt have: Double endure pain, berserker stance, perma resistance, passive sustain, etc. > > > > > > This is Core Warrior, not Spellbreaker. > > > > https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Spellbreaker_-_GS/Dagger > > > > What? Resistance comes from FC, Featherfoot grace. I don't think Core warrior has it? > > Berserker stance and healing signet. Both core warrior has access to. Whats funy is I dont use either and still have massive survive. I think people just see words like "resistance" and "sustain" and think they are some wizard magic that's results in x situation. For example, I zero resistance and people all the time are like "omg how you have so much resist?!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeghart.9841 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > You say not to hit spellbreaker when FC is on right? > So how do you do that to mesmer clones? You dodge the counterdamage? I've heard so few Mesmers complain about Full Counter, since they have multiple ways to negate it. From normal Dodges to Blurred Frenzy to Distortion and so on. Or you can simply be out of range. Also look at the other side of the coin. Against Mesmers most of the times the Full Counter block is completely wasted to protect against a measly 15 damage clone autoattack. > You can avoid FC all you want but a smart warrior can just bait you into doing that, what more in team fights? So if you play smart the warrior has to play smart as well? That's a novel idea. Really the main problem with it are AoEs during teamfights. On one side that's good since it makes people think twice about spamming AoEs everywhere, but on the other it probably makes the Spellbreaker's job during teamfights too easy. > I have no idea how people can defend this that does multiple things, negates damage 100%, deals an absurd amount of damage on a 6.5 Second CD.!!!! It's a single block. It deals the damage of a **tier 1** eviscerate. The boons it grants are 1-2s long which are just there to cover the 1½ seconds cast time. And you need to trait for them. People defend it because a lot of other people on these forums are vastly overreacting to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArthurDent.9538 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > >...deals an absurd amount of damage... > > That's relative. You're probably just squishy. The real problem is Spellbreaker with Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire should have an internal cooldown for PvP. > > Most spell-breakers aren't even running that trait anymore since they have so much resistance it becomes pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @ArthurDent.9538 said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > >...deals an absurd amount of damage... > > > > That's relative. You're probably just squishy. The real problem is Spellbreaker with Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire should have an internal cooldown for PvP. > > > > > > Most spell-breakers aren't even running that trait anymore since they have so much resistance it becomes pointless. Until they find out that there is a Spellbreaker on the other team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurrTheKing.8571 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 The problem with both Scourge and Spellbreaker is how tiny most points are that we fight over. It's much easier to deal with both on bigger points like Graveyard. Most of the balance problems this game has had come down to that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crinn.7864 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > I actually don't think spellbreaker is the issue. I think the issue are core warrior traits. Core warrior needs the nerf, and that will put spellbreaker in line. Did someone just ask to nerf a core spec? Did we enter the Twilight Zone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDjitsu.7895 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Caedmon.6798 said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > >...deals an absurd amount of damage... > > > > That's relative. You're probably just squishy. The real problem is Spellbreaker with Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire should have an internal cooldown for PvP. > > > > > > > This is the weakest argument so far.Spellbreaker has level 1 bursts,meaning 1 condi will be cleansed per burst instead of the 3 on core.Yeah lets butcher our condi removal even more ! > > You guys should think before you talk. > I think that's the thing with many complaining about Spellbreaker. Or anything for that matter these days it seems. Many don't stick to the facts and assume, exaggerate, usually just spouting buzzwords without really researching themselves. Like the good old 66666 complaint threads. The truth is, you mainly fight SB just like always. Not all builds can do that. Learn what your favorable fights are. SB doesn't counter all the specs/builds. Sometimes there's going to be unfavorable matchups for what profession you're playing atm in pvp. It's like that in most competitive games. SB's main mechanic has a big tell, and punishes face rollers/players not paying attention. Traited, FC is a strong skill, as it should be, but you hear it and especially see it from a mile away. It's like 1.5 seconds maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholy Pillager.3791 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Zeghart.9841 said: > You dodge the counterdamage? I've heard so few Mesmers complain about Full Counter, since they have multiple ways to negate it. > From normal Dodges to Blurred Frenzy to Distortion and so on. Or you can simply be out of range. If you can see the animation before one of your clones hits it, sure. That's basically a coin toss. But unless you have stealth (which Chronos typically don't) or get lucky with regard to the local terrain, you aren't going to be kiting a warrior. Too many charges, some of which also have hard cc. > Also look at the other side of the coin. > Against Mesmers most of the times the Full Counter block is completely wasted to protect against a measly 15 damage clone autoattack. Killing all of my illusions, _every single one of which has a higher cooldown than full counter,_ is not a waste by any means, even if the damage fails to land onto me. That basically annihilates any chance the Mesmer has of cleansing conditions, bursting, or applying conditions, as well as some of its healing, daze, and the ability to use Continuum Split effectively (assuming we're talking about the typical Chronomancer build). And this isn't even mentioning that most Mesmers can't do anything to get rid of the permanent resistance; since recent builds have been pretty much limited to condi or hybrid, this means that you can expect your damage to be cut in half at best. > Really the main problem with it are AoEs during teamfights. On one side that's good since it makes people think twice about spamming AoEs everywhere, but on the other it probably makes the Spellbreaker's job during teamfights too easy. I agree with this, and add: if most of your skills are AoEs and you're facing a Spellbreaker, what exactly are you supposed to do? Not use any skills at all besides your autoattack? > > I have no idea how people can defend this that does multiple things, negates damage 100%, deals an absurd amount of damage on a 6.5 Second CD.!!!! > > It's a single block. It deals the damage of a **tier 1** eviscerate. The boons it grants are 1-2s long which are just there to cover the 1½ seconds cast time. > And you need to trait for them. > > People defend it because a lot of other people on these forums are vastly overreacting to it. Part of the problem is the AoE aspect of it, which dominates team fights in a meta with another specialization (Scourge) that also dominates team fights, and the combination feels pretty oppressive. Part of the problem is that Spellbreakers are almost impossible to put down in 1v1 without either heavy boon stripping or range, damage and mobility all in one build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unholy Pillager.3791 Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 > @Caedmon.6798 said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > >...deals an absurd amount of damage... > > > > That's relative. You're probably just squishy. The real problem is Spellbreaker with Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire should have an internal cooldown for PvP. > > > > > > > This is the weakest argument so far.Spellbreaker has level 1 bursts,meaning 1 condi will be cleansed per burst instead of the 3 on core.Yeah lets butcher our condi removal even more ! > > You guys should think before you talk. > While I don't agree that core Warrior should be nerfed...you're complaining about lack of cleanse when you have _permanent Resistance_? Seriously? Even Mallyx Revenants sacrifice heavily for that, and they have essentially no condition cleanse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Vincent III.1286 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Caedmon.6798 said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > >...deals an absurd amount of damage... > > > > That's relative. You're probably just squishy. The real problem is Spellbreaker with Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire should have an internal cooldown for PvP. > > > > > > > This is the weakest argument so far.Spellbreaker has level 1 bursts,meaning 1 condi will be cleansed per burst instead of the 3 on core.Yeah lets butcher our condi removal even more ! > > You guys should think before you talk. > You get 2 Bursts from Spellbreaker and each burst recharges independently. I can effectively cleanse 4-5 conditions in the same time frame non-Spellbreaker can cleanses for 3 conditions. Without Discipline, I can effectively cleanse 1 condition every 4 seconds using Burst. The combination of Cleansing Ire and Burst Mastery (33% adrenaline refund) only speeds up the Adrenaline gain which effectively allows for Burst and Cleanse every 3.5 seconds. An internal cooldown needs to be in place to slow this thing down a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kKagari.6804 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 People still use cleansing ire on spellbreaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcaedus.7290 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 "Hurrrrrr, Full Counter is fine, just don't auto attack, you're a l2p crybaby, super obvious animation, this skill is good for pvp, punishes spam noobs." -Pretty much everyone defending Spellbreaker and Full Counter right now So yeah, I'll say one more thing that I've been repeatedly mentioning as an argument for nerfing FC: If a spellbreaker pops FC, the time in between when they block an attack and when they deal the counter-strike is TOO LOW. It comes out in about 0.25 to 0.5s which is faster than human reaction time. This is NOT balanced and I hope Anet picks up on this and increases that 'cast time,' to something more balanced like 0.75s (like they did with Arc Divider on Berserker, or Spear of Justice on Dragonhunter). Sure, you can tell the counter-strike is coming if you see that animation before-hand and in a 1v1 you don't even need that, you can probably predict FC and dodge sort of preemptively. However, in a team fight, or if you're melee-based and fighting against a smart spellbreaker, they can pop FC mere frames before one of your attacks lands (since the blocking animation begins immediately) thus you'll never even see that "super obvious" animation and just get spiked for 4-5k about 0.3 to 0.5 seconds later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @Arcaedus.7290 said: > "Hurrrrrr, Full Counter is fine, just don't auto attack, you're a l2p crybaby, super obvious animation, this skill is good for pvp, punishes spam noobs." > -Pretty much everyone defending Spellbreaker and Full Counter right now > > So yeah, I'll say one more thing that I've been repeatedly mentioning as an argument for nerfing FC: > > If a spellbreaker pops FC, the time in between when they block an attack and when they deal the counter-strike is TOO LOW. It comes out in about 0.25 to 0.5s which is faster than human reaction time. This is NOT balanced and I hope Anet picks up on this and increases that 'cast time,' to something more balanced like 0.75s (like they did with Arc Divider on Berserker, or Spear of Justice on Dragonhunter). > > Sure, you can tell the counter-strike is coming if you see that animation before-hand and in a 1v1 you don't even need that, you can probably predict FC and dodge sort of preemptively. However, in a team fight, or if you're melee-based and fighting against a smart spellbreaker, they can pop FC mere frames before one of your attacks lands (since the blocking animation begins immediately) thus you'll never even see that "super obvious" animation and just get spiked for 4-5k about 0.3 to 0.5 seconds later. no need to act up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 No half-competent Spellbreaker runs Cleansing Ire. They are aiming for Resistance spam to play into their really, really good heal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > I actually don't think spellbreaker is the issue. I think the issue are core warrior traits. Core warrior needs the nerf, and that will put spellbreaker in line. Based warrior and berserker have never been as strong as Spellbreaker. Spellbreaker on it's own just has insane sustain, mostly thanks to Natural Healing providing out of this world healing and condi cleanse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeghart.9841 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > You get 2 Bursts from Spellbreaker and each burst recharges independently. I can effectively cleanse 4-5 conditions in the same time frame non-Spellbreaker can cleanses for 3 conditions. Without Discipline, I can effectively cleanse 1 condition every 4 seconds using Burst. The combination of Cleansing Ire and Burst Mastery (33% adrenaline refund) only speeds up the Adrenaline gain which effectively allows for Burst and Cleanse every 3.5 seconds. An internal cooldown needs to be in place to slow this thing down a bit. Maybe against target golems. Cleansing Ire is useless if you don't actually **land** those bursts. Which makes it really bad for Spellbreaker. You need to land 3 separate bursts compared to a single t3 one to clear the same amount of condis of a Core Warrior. And you only have 2 adrenaline bars. Removing 1 condition at a time is already not great, it's even worse when it's nowhere near guaranteed. There's a reason why Spellbreakers pretty much never run Cleansing Ire. So I don't see where your complaint is coming from. If anything good resistance uptime is pretty much mandatory for Spellbreaker, since the only reliable condi clear the spec has is Natural Healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caedmon.6798 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > @Caedmon.6798 said: > > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > > >...deals an absurd amount of damage... > > > > > > That's relative. You're probably just squishy. The real problem is Spellbreaker with Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire should have an internal cooldown for PvP. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is the weakest argument so far.Spellbreaker has level 1 bursts,meaning 1 condi will be cleansed per burst instead of the 3 on core.Yeah lets butcher our condi removal even more ! > > > > You guys should think before you talk. > > > > You get 2 Bursts from Spellbreaker and each burst recharges independently. I can effectively cleanse 4-5 conditions in the same time frame non-Spellbreaker can cleanses for 3 conditions. Without Discipline, I can effectively cleanse 1 condition every 4 seconds using Burst. The combination of Cleansing Ire and Burst Mastery (33% adrenaline refund) only speeds up the Adrenaline gain which effectively allows for Burst and Cleanse every 3.5 seconds. An internal cooldown needs to be in place to slow this thing down a bit. Spellbreaker has acces to *level 1 bursts*,meaning you get 1 adren hp per burst and cleanse 1 condi per burst. "Maximum adrenaline is capped at 2 bars, and only *level 1 bursts* are available. Gain access to the Full Counter burst and Meditation skills. " https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spellbreaker Gain adrenaline when hit. Remove a condition for *every bar of adrenaline spent when you hit with a burst skill*. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Ire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lighter.5631 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 full counter is only useful for kiting surviving and resistance so they dont get melted by scourge. it doesnt even hit that hard.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egorum.9506 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 The big issue is the amount of resistance/stab and the high evade frames/disables making it very difficult to lock one down to do any physical damage or boon strip, combined with the 500hp/s healing. Every time you don't attack during FC, they heal. Every time they whirlwind, they heal. Every time they block, they heal. Every time you dodge a burst skill, they heal. Every time you eat a burst skill, they heal. Every time you get disabled, or dodge a disable they heal. It adds up very quickly, and you can't control them due to the resist and stab combo. Easiest way to bring them in line is drop resist from FC, increase CD to 10s, double healing and endurance gain for might makes right and give it a 5s CD. Less sustain, more opportunity for counterplay. Though for any condi class not running boon strip, you might as well not engage regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sartharina.3542 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 You're bitching about Spellbreaker cleansing one condition every few seconds (One that can be reapplied even faster)... eles cleanse one every second. Guards can completely clear their condis every few seconds. Warriors can survive well against condi pressure. But strip that resistance, and they melt to condibombs. And for their 'invulnerability' - they have far less invuln access than eles, mesmers, rangers, or guardians. They simply have no telegraph for it. (And you bypass it by waiting literally 2 seconds) Also - Warriors only have access to two traitlines and Spellbreaker. Might Makes Right is in Strength. But Warriors need Discipline and Defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saiyan.1704 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Don't nerf Spellbreaker's damage, nerf their resistance. Nerf Scourge's F1 abilities condi bursts. ...everything else will fall in line.. maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hot Boy.7138 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @mortrialus.3062 said: > > @"Hot Boy.7138" said: > > I actually don't think spellbreaker is the issue. I think the issue are core warrior traits. Core warrior needs the nerf, and that will put spellbreaker in line. > > Based warrior and berserker have never been as strong as Spellbreaker. Spellbreaker on it's own just has insane sustain, mostly thanks to Natural Healing providing out of this world healing and condi cleanse. Season 5 and season 6 warriors were just as broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omar Aschi Popp.7496 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 > @ArthurDent.9538 said: > > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said: > > > @StickerHappy.8052 said: > > >...deals an absurd amount of damage... > > > > That's relative. You're probably just squishy. The real problem is Spellbreaker with Cleansing Ire. Cleansing Ire should have an internal cooldown for PvP. > > > > > > Most spell-breakers aren't even running that trait anymore since they have so much resistance it becomes pointless. I don't understand this fixation some warriors have with cleansing ire. It's always been so useless to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velimere.7685 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Anyone complaining about Cleansing Ire isn't keeping up with the meta because Cleansing Ire isn't meta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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